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  1. #1
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    Working hours - Informal Letter

    It's more of an informal letter to my manager than anything official at this time, I would however like to get some opinions. cheers

    REMOVED AS IT WAS CRAP
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    Opinions would be brilliant, I want to come across as an informal enquiry without rattling feathers at present.
    Last edited by Hellfire; 02-03-2010 at 11:03 PM.
    ‎"Anyone can achieve their fullest potential, But who we are might be predetermined, the path we follow is always of our own choosing, we should never allow our fears, or the expectations of others to set the frontiers of our destiny. Your destiny cannot be changed but it can be challenged. Every man is born as many men and dies as a single one."

    --Timothy McGee
    (NCIS)

  2. #2
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    Incase I confused anyone here this is to do with finishing a shift at 22.30 at night and starting again at 06.30am the next morning.
    ‎"Anyone can achieve their fullest potential, But who we are might be predetermined, the path we follow is always of our own choosing, we should never allow our fears, or the expectations of others to set the frontiers of our destiny. Your destiny cannot be changed but it can be challenged. Every man is born as many men and dies as a single one."

    --Timothy McGee
    (NCIS)

  3. #3
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    Less prattle.

  4. #4
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    Hi Hellfire,

    Obviously this is just my personal opinion, so you should feel free to write whatever feels right for you. Just curious what type of manager or person it'd be sent to, it can make a big difference in how you might approach the issue.

    If sending an email does feel right then, as others mention, I'd start by just saying clearly what you want - if it sounds informal, it'll be informal, you don't need to say that, just make sure it reads that way.

    Focus on the main issue. Is it the Late Hotel followed by the Audit or is it the more general gap between a Late Hotel and Morning Resort. If it's the worse situation you want to focus on right now then I'd stick to that and not wander into the other issues.

    By the way, are these shift titles capitalised or not, you've used it both ways so I'll assume capitalised.

    Also, it's important to decide, in your own mind, whether or not you want to approach this as something that's about your legal right to a break of a certain length between shifts or whether it's about a casual or informal requests to try and avoid it happening.

    You say it's an informal letter but as soon as you mention the working time directive then it isn't really informal, it's a little more than that. I imagine you're trying to strengthen your case but it does change the tone

    I know it can be hard to figure out how to get something across so I'll give you my example. But feel free to play with it or disregard it if it doesn't feel right. I've assumed you want it to be informal so that's what I've focused on. This wouldn't stop you mentioning things like the Working Time Directive in a reply, but for now I've suggested not bringing that up.

    But again, I'm focusing just on the very worst situation here - not on the late followed by early. See what you think though. Oh and I'm assuming you'd be okay to chat about it? If you think your working with a manager who would be offended to chat with you or any other staff about problems then you could maybe massage their ego a bit ("I know you're really good at working shifts out, can you find a way to avoid this?")


    Hi Josh,

    I just wanted to ask you about the way shifts sometimes work out at the moment. I know it's rare but sometimes people, yourself included, end up having to work a Late Resort followed by an Audit.

    As I'm sure you know that can mean ending a shift at 11.30 then having to be back up at 5.30 for the next shift. It's just really difficult to work well when there's so little time to rest and get ready for the next day.

    I know it's really hard for everyone who works these shifts so I was wondering if we could do anything to try and avoid this happening. That way we'd all avoid being tired when working the next day.

    Maybe we could have a chat about it?

    cheers,
    Cellar Door

    You thought it was gold, but it was bronze

    'I ain't gonna study war... no more'

  5. #5
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    err sorry, hard to write something without making up a name for who it's going to. Please, if you use any part of it, make sure you don't forget to change the name
    Cellar Door

    You thought it was gold, but it was bronze

    'I ain't gonna study war... no more'

  6. #6
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    I just wouldn't do it.

    Yeah, I've worked a day, through the nighat and the ne day, but that's when it needs to happen because something has broken. I just wouldn't accept planned work with less than a 9 hour break (unfortunately, I do that quite a lot)

    Just mentioning it, so you don't think you're being out of line for wanting a decent night's sleep

  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by Big Gay View Post
    Just mentioning it, so you don't think you're being out of line for wanting a decent night's sleep
    And isn't the law 12 hours too?

  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by Melian View Post
    And isn't the law 12 hours too?
    Nope, it's 11.

    Honestly? The first paragraph confused the hell out of me. If it's informal I see no reason why it has to be a letter rather than a face-to-face chat. I've done what you talk about in your letter (finishing at 10/11 and then starting early the next day) and it's horrible. Hell, even a 12-8 followed by a 7 or 8 am start is horrible.

    You have every right to demand 11 hours, too, even if you don't feel like you want to. If they haven't got the staff to do the shifts, they need to hire more people, not fuck over those who do work there.
    ...there is a crack in everything, that's how the light gets in.

    'Franki is a wise one. Even if she hides it well sometimes' ~ Scary Monster
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  9. #9
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    I've removed the letter as it was pure pish, i'll try for a Face to Face chat but she does work different shifts than me so it is hard.

    We've got the staff Franki, that isn't the issue, the problem is the rotaing, and by rare i mean once every couple of weeks / 1/2 times a week per person.

    The rota works like this, 4shifts a day (for us) 2earlies, 2lates,

    06.30-14.30 (called Early Hotel/Audit)
    07.30-15.30 (called Early Resort)
    14.30-22.30 (called Late Resort)
    15.00-23.00 (called Late Hotel)

    The problem is how they structure the rota, for example we're often given a Late shift followed by an early shift, and no matter what late followed by early you do you never get 11hours, the best you can hope for is 9hours. and although rare but still happens a Late Hotel followed by a Early Hotel is around 7.30 hours in between shift.

    It is something I want to bring up, the problem is, they'll ask why am I bringing it up now as it's been like this for ages (the 3 years I've been there) My argument is that regardless of that it is starting to have a negative effect, for example my son did not see me at all yesterday through till 14.30 when I finished today,

    With the new one on the way it'll mean staying up at night, however one part worries mean about this, a section from the direct.gov website regarding the working time direct.

    Exceptions to the regulations

    Your working week is not covered by the Working Time Regulations if you work in the following areas:

    * jobs where you can choose freely how long you will work (such as a managing executive)
    * the armed forces, emergency services and police are excluded in some circumstances
    * domestic servants in private houses

    The rights to breaks apply differently to you if:

    * you have to travel a long distance from your home to get to work
    * you constantly work in different places making it difficult to work to a set pattern
    * you are doing security or surveillance-based work
    * you are working in an industry with busy peak periods, like agriculture, retail or tourism
    * there is an emergency or risk of an accident
    * the job needs round-the-clock staffing (such as hospital work)
    * you are employed in the rail industry and you work on board trains or your activities are irregular or linked to seeing that trains run on time
    The part I've put in bold worries me as it is so vague but I am classed as working in Tourism.
    ‎"Anyone can achieve their fullest potential, But who we are might be predetermined, the path we follow is always of our own choosing, we should never allow our fears, or the expectations of others to set the frontiers of our destiny. Your destiny cannot be changed but it can be challenged. Every man is born as many men and dies as a single one."

    --Timothy McGee
    (NCIS)

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by geneve View Post
    How often does this actually happen? You say that your boss tries to avoid it happening but do you think he's being unresonable?
    We can all be flexible when we need to, as I said it the chat, it's not unheard of at all that I work over 100 hours a week often with a few hours rest. Obviously this is not advised but at the end of the day the job has to be done.
    Sorry but regardless to this I don't care if their is a JOB to be done, at the end of day I have a LEGAL right to work no more than 48hours (which is not an issue here) and have 11 hours in between breaks

    Quote Originally Posted by geneve View Post
    If it's a case that this sometimes happens when there's little other choice, I would suck it up. At the end of the day a career is about give and take, if you're seen to be flexible and hard working your will be able to turn it around when it's pay rise or promotion time.
    Sorry but there is being flexible and then being used/fucked over. regardless of being flexible I am still entitled to what I am entitled to.
    ‎"Anyone can achieve their fullest potential, But who we are might be predetermined, the path we follow is always of our own choosing, we should never allow our fears, or the expectations of others to set the frontiers of our destiny. Your destiny cannot be changed but it can be challenged. Every man is born as many men and dies as a single one."

    --Timothy McGee
    (NCIS)

  11. #11
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    I'm thinking in this case... 'breaks' mean the 20 mins or whatever you have during your shift, which the European Working Time Directive also covers.

    Just because it says 'hospital work' there, and I know doctors are still covered by the directive... and have to have 11 hours break.

    Edit - sorry I actually have no idea....
    Last edited by yellowseahorse; 02-03-2010 at 11:22 PM.
    There's only one way of life
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  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by purplestarfish View Post
    I'm thinking in this case... 'breaks' mean the 20 mins or whatever you have during your shift, which the European Working Time Directive also covers.

    Just because it says 'hospital work' there, and I know doctors are still covered by the directive... and have to have 11 hours break.
    There are 3 times of breaks covered by the WTD,

    Rest Breaks - Daily breaks at work
    Daily Breaks - Breaks in between shifts
    Weekly Breaks - Breaks at the end of your working week (your weekend basically)

    After checking the section refers from what I can tell to all breaks not just "rest breaks"
    ‎"Anyone can achieve their fullest potential, But who we are might be predetermined, the path we follow is always of our own choosing, we should never allow our fears, or the expectations of others to set the frontiers of our destiny. Your destiny cannot be changed but it can be challenged. Every man is born as many men and dies as a single one."

    --Timothy McGee
    (NCIS)

  13. #13
    Join Date
    Apr 2006
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    7,347
    Working time directive is essentially useless because of the number of exclusion clauses, basically almost any employer can claim that what you do is exempt from it.

    Rather than kicking up a fuss about working time directive as such, if you can do it as a face to face conversation just put your point across, a good slant may be that if you've got a stupid gap between shifts then you'll be tired when you come back into work, and not presenting the company well, etc, that suck up kind of stuff. As for why its an issue now, if they ask, point out that when you started it was just you and relatively few other commitments, you've now got a little one and expecting another so you've got less leeway in the rest of life.
    Growls

  14. #14
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    Sep 2010
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    11 hours ,
    I just wouldn't do it.

  15. #15
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    I think its a bit late to be saying that now

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