chip & pin query

[tittletattle]

This chip and pin malarkey – do you HAVE to know your pin everywhere now?

I know that the banks are saying that you do, but it was on the news that some shops and businesses are not prepared for it so … would they be breaking the law if they asked you to sign or is it not quite that serious?

[Makoto]

I don't know about the law but every shop I have been in and paid for stuff on my card I've had to give my pin.

[JsT]

If you have a chip and pin card but dont know your PIN then a company can now refuse the transaction. You can still sign if the company doesn't have the correct facilities or you do not have a chip and pin card.

You may find some more information at http://www.chipandpin.co.uk

[stargalaxy]

This chip and pin malarkey – do you HAVE to know your pin everywhere now? I know that the banks are saying that you do, but it was on the news that some shops and businesses are not prepared for it so … would they be breaking the law if they asked you to sign or is it not quite that serious? They wouldn't be breaking the law as such, no. However, if the transaction being made was fraudulent, the shop would be the ones who lose the money in either case. It's estimated about one in ten of all tills was not ready when the deadline passed, so it's signatures as usual for them until it is.

[briggi]

Most shops will definitely be enforcing it now, as they've become liable for any card fraud as of the 14th. I'm not sure if it's breaking the law, so to speak, but they definitely lose out if there's a loss (whereas I assume before they could claim it back or something).

I think that's the big difference between their stance on it now, and the preceeding months when they've been willing to take a signature instead.

[littleoleme]

if you dont know your pin at my works you have to pay by some other way and if you cant then we can refuse to serve you. were not being mean its just our tills just physically wont let us.

[Tweety]

Yeah we (asda) arent allowed to accept it either if you don't know your pin.

[wooooooooah]

So do they think this will make a big difference to the amount of fraud committed? I suppose all the online and telephone stuff will still go on won't it...

[Acrobat]

So do they think this will make a big difference to the amount of fraud committed? I suppose all the online and telephone stuff will still go on won't it...

And of course you get the old biddies who when asked "Do you know your PIN" and are offered the keypad to input it go "Ooh yes dear, its 4352", which makes it easy to steal their cards and defraud them. I'm so glad I don't work in retail any more. They really used to annoy me.

[lucifer devil]

wouldn't you know your pin for using the atm anyway?

i work at tesco and we're not allowed to accept payment if you don't know your pin.

you can always pay by cheque.

[rachie004]

And of course you get the old biddies who when asked "Do you know your PIN" and are offered the keypad to input it go "Ooh yes dear, its 4352", which makes it easy to steal their cards and defraud them. I'm so glad I don't work in retail any more. They really used to annoy me.

my mum did that at a chemist - they asked if she knew her pin so they knew whether to get a signature or use the pin keybad and she went oh yes its.... :rolleyes: silly moo :p

[Kermit]

It's not a legal requirement for a shop to insist on chip and PIN transactions for enabled cards, but if they accept a signature and it later turns out the transaction was fraudulent then the shop is liable for the losses.

So most shops will insist on PIN, because they don't want to have to pay the bank's losses from fraudulent transactions.

Not all shops yet have PIN terminals, which means they are running a risk until they install them.

I don't think it will make fraud any less prevalent, and could actually make it worse, as obvious stolen cards won't be spotted- a 17-year-old lad with a card in the name of Mrs Ethel Jones, for instance.

[littlemissy]

wouldn't you know your pin for using the atm anyway?



But do you use your credit card at an ATM machine? S'alright for switch but I bet a lot of people forget their credit card pin unless it is the same for their switch or used regularly.

[Kat_B]

i was in M&S yesterday and they had a sign up saying if you dont have a chip and pin card they need full photographic evidence to go with the card you do have... and also, i thought the majority of shops did have chip and pin machines but out of the 5 i bought things in yesterday, only 1 did, the rest asked me to sign.

[Cuddilicious]

Just recently been told by our manager that we aint allowed to accept signatures and that they have to know their pin as well.

[Acrobat]

But do you use your credit card at an ATM machine? S'alright for switch but I bet a lot of people forget their credit card pin unless it is the same for their switch or used regularly.

Thats my problem-I only use my credit card either when there is a problem with my debit card, or the week before payday or something to tide me over, and I have real trouble remembering it. IO have to look it up before I go anywhere :p

[lucifer devil]

And of course you get the old biddies who when asked "Do you know your PIN" and are offered the keypad to input it go "Ooh yes dear, its 4352", which makes it easy to steal their cards and defraud them. I'm so glad I don't work in retail any more. They really used to annoy me.


yep i've had quite a few people do this!

so i started saying 'would you like to enter your pin number in please?' or something like that. otherwise i might get some smart arse responding with 'yes' when i say 'do you know your chip and pin'.

[lucifer devil]

Thats my problem-I only use my credit card either when there is a problem with my debit card, or the week before payday or something to tide me over, and I have real trouble remembering it. IO have to look it up before I go anywhere :p


why don't you get it changed to something you can remember?

[tittletattle]

you need to know the pin to be able to go to the cashpoint to change it to something different! vicious circle!

ive ordered a new pin today as ive forgotten mine on my credit card, but it wont arrive for 3-4 working days and by then ill have been paid lol, never mind

[dr_carter]

Just recently been told by our manager that we aint allowed to accept signatures and that they have to know their pin as well.

Sorry to drag this up again but this one REALLY annoyed me.

Shops and businesses have absolutely NO BUSINESS (not my words, words of a senior manager at HSBC) refusing completely to accept signatures.

Only if the card is a valid Chip and PIN card does any store have a right to refuse a signature. If the customer has had the card activated so that he/she can still sign because they a) have physical trouble with the PIN pad or b) have mental trouble with the PIN itself, the store has no grounds to decline the transaction on this basis. All stores SHOULD have been informing their customers with difficulties of this nature of the alternate option over the last year or so.

If the card is one of those that hasn't been converted (Amex still haven't converted their credit cards yet) then there are still no grounds to refuse a transaction because the customer has to sign.

There's still a lot of confusion about all this Chip and PIN issue - I was in Sainsburys the other day and one of the cashiers told me I had to know my PIN for my Amex card by Valentine's Day otherwise I wouldn't be served anymore. Then I told her it hadn't been given a PIN yet and she told me 'well you must find out, all cards have a PIN now, it's the law'. I tried to explain the facts to her but she continued to insist that she was right. I did actually write to the store manager suggesting they should train their staff properly - it didn't really bother me too much but my nan is old and very excitable - if she'd been told that instead of me she'd probably get into a terrible panic about it all and that's not really good for her at all.

[lucifer devil]

well yes, if they have a special sign card then they're obviously going to be allowed to sign for it.

[dr_carter]

Yesssssss... but i've even heard some shops tell elderly people that they have to know their PIN, there is no other option. It's scary how little people actually know about the whole thing.

[lucifer devil]

Yesssssss... but i've even heard some shops tell elderly people that they have to know their PIN, there is no other option. It's scary how little people actually know about the whole thing.

no.

if they have the option to sign with one of those special cards then they will be able to sign.

[dr_carter]

Are you actually reading what i'm saying?

SOME shops are telling elderly customers who can't remember it that they HAVE to know their PIN and there is NO other option. SOME shops are NOT informing customers that they have the option of signing if they can't remember their PIN.

Oh, and another (slightly arsey) point - it's not a PIN number, it's a PIN, which stands for personal identification number - otherwise it'd be a personal identification number number...

[lucifer devil]

Are you actually reading what i'm saying?

SOME shops are telling elderly customers who can't remember it that they HAVE to know their PIN and there is NO other option. SOME shops are NOT informing customers that they have the option of signing if they can't remember their PIN.

Oh, and another (slightly arsey) point - it's not a PIN number, it's a PIN, which stands for personal identification number - otherwise it'd be a personal identification number number...


yes i'm reading what you're saying unfortunately.

well if the person ordered a special card which enabled them to sign for items then they'd realise they can sign for it!

and if you don't have one of these cards then yes in most cases you can't sign for it.

[dr_carter]

However, clearly if customers do have a difficulty in remembering their PIN they should be told about the alternative option, which some staff obviously know nothing about.

[lucifer devil]

However, clearly if customers do have a difficulty in remembering their PIN they should be told about the alternative option, which some staff obviously know nothing about.


it's not down to checkout staff.

down to the bank.

[dr_carter]

Rubbish.

The banks may rarely see some of these customers - and can hardly be expected to work out from a database of names which customers will have trouble remembering their PIN.

The checkout staff will see these people on a regular basis and SHOULD be advising them what to do. It makes it even worse that some checkout staff are visibly giving out incorrect information.

[lucifer devil]

Rubbish.

The banks may rarely see some of these customers - and can hardly be expected to work out from a database of names which customers will have trouble remembering their PIN.

The checkout staff will see these people on a regular basis and SHOULD be advising them what to do. It makes it even worse that some checkout staff are visibly giving out incorrect information.


what on earth, you work in a shop do you?

yes if i served a customer who couldn't remember their pin number (i haven't done as of 14th feb) i would remind them that they can apply for a signing card but i haven't been asked to do so or given any information on this by my employers. therefore it is NOT my responsibility. i'm not a bank!!

[dr_carter]

The guidelines from the Chip and PIN management office state that all stores should be in a capacity to advise customers on what to do if they've temporarily forgotten their PIN, physically have trouble remembering their PIN and have difficulty using the PIN pad.

It's not the bank's fault (or yours) if your personnel department has omitted to train you effectively.

[Tweety]

I would serve 10 customers an hour if i explained to every customer that came through the checkout the different options if they don't know thier pin.
I don't think its my job to make sure they know all thier options, the bank get paid money for people using these cards, they should be the ones telling thier customers what to do.
Any shop has every right to refuse any sale as it is a private business. In theory if a shop manager doesn't like the look of you, he has every right to ask you to leave the store as it is a private premises.
Pensioners have to use a pin to access thier pensions at post offices. If they have to remember thier pin why shouldn't everyone else.

[Kermit]

Actually, a company is well within its rights to decline to accept your card if you do not know your PIN. Unless the card is not chip-enabled, or is one of the exempt cards such as for those with impaired vision, the company will be liable for the losses. They are given discretion to accept signatures, but it would be on their head if it was a stolen card.

Elderly and disabled people are entitled to request a non-chip enabled card from their bank, and shops will not be liable for fraud losses with these cards. But it's up to the bank to tell elderly and disabled people that they are entitled to use signature cards- not the shop.

Shop assistants should not be turning away cards that are not chip-enabled, and that is not correct procedure.

One other point: shops do not have to legally enforce chip and PIN at all. If I wanted to I could accept signatures- except I would be liable for fraud losses.

[piccolo]

On that note, you should bear in mind that sometimes company policy is enforced to the point that the till will decline cards if the card-holder doesn't know their PIN - it's not up to the individual sales assistant or (often) even the manager within a large chain.

[ShyBoy]

At my co op we have chip and pin technology but if you say you've forgot the pin then you can still sign for it. :/ a fraudsters dream

[Mist]

The banks may rarely see some of these customers - and can hardly be expected to work out from a database of names which customers will have trouble remembering their PIN.


Not in the slightest.

The banks have been mailing out their customers for months about chip and pin and the different options. Frankly it's not the shop's place to advise their customers on what they can do.


The checkout staff will see these people on a regular basis and SHOULD be advising them what to do. It makes it even worse that some checkout staff are visibly giving out incorrect information.

Giving out incorrect information is unfortunate, but again should serve to show that it's best if the shopkeepers don't advise at all.

Besides, in a lot of shops if people are that old-fashioned and don't know their pin then they can use a cheque.

[Tweety]

Besides, in a lot of shops if people are that old-fashioned and don't know their pin then they can use a cheque.


Thats what i have found have increased alot since 14th feb. More cheques being used.
I also notice a hell of a lot of customers putting thier pin number into thier mobile phone and looking it up before they use it. A thiefs dream really.

[Glittery]

I also notice a hell of a lot of customers putting thier pin number into thier mobile phone and looking it up before they use it. A thiefs dream really.I do that, except I dont have them under Pin or anything as obvious as that, I have Bob and Mary :D

Please no one mug me for my purse and mobile now please :(

[lucifer devil]

soooo many people have theirs written on a piece of paper in their purse along with their card!

and thankyou mist and kermit.

[Tweety]

I do that, except I dont have them under Pin or anything as obvious as that, I have Bob and Mary :D




*tuts at you* :p you best change it now :p

[ShyBoy]

isnt it the same pin as the whole in the wall though? i dont see how people can not know it lol.

[lucifer devil]

isnt it the same pin as the whole in the wall though? i dont see how people can not know it lol.


well i said that in another thread and someone made the valid point of credit cards etc. you don't often use them to take cash out of the atm.

[Kermit]

I don't know the PIN for at least two of my credit cards.

[dr_carter]

I would serve 10 customers an hour if i explained to every customer that came through the checkout the different options if they don't know thier pin.
I don't think its my job to make sure they know all thier options, the bank get paid money for people using these cards, they should be the ones telling thier customers what to do.
Any shop has every right to refuse any sale as it is a private business. In theory if a shop manager doesn't like the look of you, he has every right to ask you to leave the store as it is a private premises.
Pensioners have to use a pin to access thier pensions at post offices. If they have to remember thier pin why shouldn't everyone else.

Okay, first of all - you don't have to explain to every customer, only those that are clearly having difficulty.
Second of all, it's the guidance from the Chip and PIN people that shops and businesses should be advising customers - and banks have all sent out leaflets but you can't guarantee customers will read them.
Thirdly, you have a right to refuse a sale, but you have no right to demand that all cards must have a PIN entered.
Finally - pensioners have other options!

[dr_carter]

On that note, you should bear in mind that sometimes company policy is enforced to the point that the till will decline cards if the card-holder doesn't know their PIN - it's not up to the individual sales assistant or (often) even the manager within a large chain.

Not necessarily so - the whole thing can be overriden simply by using the click-clack machines that all stores are required to keep as backup.
These can be banked in the same way as EFTPOS but just take a bit longer!

[dr_carter]

Not in the slightest.

The banks have been mailing out their customers for months about chip and pin and the different options. Frankly it's not the shop's place to advise their customers on what they can do.

Giving out incorrect information is unfortunate, but again should serve to show that it's best if the shopkeepers don't advise at all.

Besides, in a lot of shops if people are that old-fashioned and don't know their pin then they can use a cheque.

The banks have been mailing out but that's still no guarantee it'll actually be read. I quite often throw letters from the bank away when I see it's not something I want to read. The guidelines still say that shops are expected to advise customers where possible.

Shop staff should have been effectively trained, and small shop owners should have sufficiently read the material so that they can advise their customers.

[Tweety]

Okay, first of all - you don't have to explain to every customer, only those that are clearly having difficulty.
Second of all, it's the guidance from the Chip and PIN people that shops and businesses should be advising customers - and banks have all sent out leaflets but you can't guarantee customers will read them.
Thirdly, you have a right to refuse a sale, but you have no right to demand that all cards must have a PIN entered.
Finally - pensioners have other options!


No i agree that is wrong doing that, we don't tell people they have to have cards that are pin enabled. What we do say is if its a pin card and they forget the pin we cannot accept it.
As for telling every customer about it, to be fair i am often put on a till that mainly the elderly come to, and they are the biggest culprits for this so yes i would have to tell almost every customer!

[Kermit]

Not necessarily so - the whole thing can be overriden simply by using the click-clack machines that all stores are required to keep as backup.
These can be banked in the same way as EFTPOS but just take a bit longer!

It can be overridden, but you're missing one crucial point.

If the transaction is fraudulent, then the store is liable to pay the bank's losses. That's why they don't do it.