luxury goods.

[morrocan roll]

would they cease to exist in a socialist world?

[Yerascrote]

Probably not...the ability to buy them would...i.e. easier.

[Blagsta]

define "luxury"

[morrocan roll]

define "luxury"
briefly met a guy today who had an outragously expensive car.
1/4 of a million 1/2 a million quids ...ferrari i think ...i know nothing about motors by the way.

just got me thinking.

[AllAmericanRageJunky]

I would assume it depends on what type of socialism you're talking about .
I mean the Marxist idea of socailism might be very different from someone elses.

[morrocan roll]

I would assume it depends on what type of socialism you're talking about .
I mean the Marxist idea of socailism might be very different from someone elses.
so where do 1/4 million pound cars stand then?

[AllAmericanRageJunky]

I would hope they wouldn't exist in any form. Course that might be a little idealistic of me.

[morrocan roll]

I would hope they wouldn't exist in any form. Course that might be a little idealistic of me.
how about jewel encrusted things ...fine art ...collections of valuable antiques?

[AllAmericanRageJunky]

how about jewel encrusted things ...fine art ...collections of valuable antiques?
state owned?

[morrocan roll]

state owned?
well bollox to that!

[Blagsta]

state owned?

not neccesarily

[morrocan roll]

not neccesarily
wow!

[AllAmericanRageJunky]

not neccesarily
explain :chin:

[Teh_Gerbil]

They would not, as persay, exist. In the ideal socialist world we would see no need for such thigs - after all, the people with them are often none happier really - look at all the rich celebs or drugs and anti depressants trying to find happiness.

Luxury - Well.... I suppose worthless luxury items would. A washing machine is - but ideally, everyone would have one - they are useful. Yet a luxury.

A ferrari wouldn't - What is the point of a car you cannot use at its full speed or capabilty and is inneficient - You could have an efficient car that is more practical and at its best on the road - and more reliable. Common sense, no?

[Kentish]

A washing machine is a luxury now?

[Teh_Gerbil]

A washing machine is a luxury now?
To alot of people in the world yes, it is.

Also think. You do not NEED in any way a washing machine. It is just a way of maknig washing easier- you dont have to do it.

[AllAmericanRageJunky]

A washing machine is a luxury now?
depends on what you regard as luxury. Ask some people and they'll tell ya that most possessions are luxury items that have simply become commonplace in out lives. Course those are usualy the same people who advocate a return to "pre-civilization"....

[Kentish]

Most of what I own is luxurious then. Maybe we should all live in caves and eat wild boar.

[Teh_Gerbil]

Most of what I own is luxurious then. Maybe we should all live in caves and eat wild boar.


Oooh... Boar...

But yes. That would be truely without Luxury items. I doubt anyone seriously could advocate that as a conceivable world now.

[AllAmericanRageJunky]

But yes. That would be truely without Luxury items. I doubt anyone seriously could advocate that as a conceivable world now.


http://www.greenanarchy.org/index.php?action=home

can and do :rolleyes:

[Kentish]

Oooh... Boar...

But yes. That would be truely without Luxury items. I doubt anyone seriously could advocate that as a conceivable world now.
But I guess the point with luxuries is that you wouldn't aspire towards everyone owning one. We can aspire towards everyone having a washing machine because it is a by-product of general industrial development. Whereas your Ferrari is just, arguably, a needless waste of resources.

The antiques point is interesting though - what can you do to stop people placing a high value on things that already exist? Burn first editions of books? Destroy antique furniture and art? We can't rid the world of high value goods, surely?

[Kentish]

http://www.greenanarchy.org/index.php?action=home

can and do :rolleyes:
Somewhat ironic that they have a website, dontcha think?

[AllAmericanRageJunky]

Somewhat ironic that they have a website, dontcha think?

yes. :yes:


I read all the books they put out and could go into their justification for why they have a website but I'm sure you guys could come up with it anyhow. Interestingly enough they do have some valid points though.

[Renzo]

In supermarkets Tampons and other womans sanitry products are counted as "luxery" you know.

[Kentish]

In supermarkets Tampons and other womans sanitry products are counted as "luxery" you know.
Tights and stockings are counted as "hosiery" too. It's outrageous. I blame the feminists.

[Teh_Gerbil]

Somewhat ironic that they have a website, dontcha think?
Very. But then... that proves rather they don't truely beleive that. Unless you try to use the old "We use our enemies weapons against them" argument. :rolleyes:

Yes, the point you make above, with the washing machine and ferrari is the one I like to make. As for old stuff - well. The point is that stuff is scarce and not many of them exist. So their value is higher. Note how "common" old things are worth little compared to rarer ones. And they jusr for the fact they are old often enough. They rarely get used most of the time.

I really dont know how to calssify them, except I will say i find some prices stuff sells at auction madness.

[Kentish]

Very. But then... that proves rather they don't truely beleive that. Unless you try to use the old "We use our enemies weapons against them" argument. :rolleyes:

Yes, the point you make above, with the washing machine and ferrari is the one I like to make. As for old stuff - well. The point is that stuff is scarce and not many of them exist. So their value is higher. Note how "common" old things are worth little compared to rarer ones. And they jusr for the fact they are old often enough. They rarely get used most of the time.

I really dont know how to calssify them, except I will say i find some prices stuff sells at auction madness.
But that's just how market economics works - simple supply and demand. How would that change in your ideal world?

[Teh_Gerbil]

Interestingly enough they do have some valid points though.

So did Hitler? But we like to forget that and portray him as ambsolutley wrong and mad. After all, good and evil must me easily defined to keep us hordes ignorant, you know. ;p

I blame the feminists.

Everything is their fault. We've found new scapegoats! :D
They started that war in Iraq. I think I might try to run with this idea.

[AllAmericanRageJunky]

Very. But then... that proves rather they don't truely beleive that. Unless you try to use the old "We use our enemies weapons against them" argument. :rolleyes:

yeah that's pretty much it.

[Kentish]

Everything is their fault. We've found new scapegoats! :D
They started that war in Iraq. I think I might try to run with this idea.
I heard they were rioting in Paris as well. :yes:

[AllAmericanRageJunky]

Everything is their fault. We've found new scapegoats! :D
They started that war in Iraq. I think I might try to run with this idea.

too late, a guy named Lewis Black already did a stand-up bit about it.

"Pat Robertson said that god alowed 9/11 to happen because he was angry, in particular with the feminists. And I thought to myself 'now there is a name I didn't expect to hear'....'and god looked down from the heavens, and he saw that there was no stew in the oven, and the spice rack was in dissaray and he said I WILL SMITE THEM ALL!'

But Pat Robertson said that god actualy came to him in a dream and told him this. And I thought to myself 'well that can't be right' because god had called me about 4 hours earlier and told me he was angry because of dick heads like Pat Robertson" :lol:

[Teh_Gerbil]

I heard they were rioting in Paris as well. :yes:
Yeah... and they have been causing hurricane in the USA.
Damnit, we have to stop them.

Joke about femenists :lol: awesome.

[minimi38]

A washing machine is - but ideally, everyone would have one - they are useful. Yet a luxury.



Washing machines are not luxury goods.

[Spliffie]

too late, a guy named Lewis Black already did a stand-up bit about it.

"Pat Robertson said that god alowed 9/11 to happen because he was angry, in particular with the feminists. And I thought to myself 'now there is a name I didn't expect to hear'....'and god looked down from the heavens, and he saw that there was no stew in the oven, and the spice rack was in dissaray and he said I WILL SMITE THEM ALL!'

But Pat Robertson said that god actualy came to him in a dream and told him this. And I thought to myself 'well that can't be right' because god had called me about 4 hours earlier and told me he was angry because of dick heads like Pat Robertson" :lol:

:D

[Teh_Gerbil]

Washing machines are not luxury goods.
What are they then?

[Blagsta]

explain :chin:

We've been here before - you seem to think that socialism/communism implies the state. It doesn't.

[Blagsta]

http://www.greenanarchy.org/index.php?action=home

can and do :rolleyes:

primmo's are twats

[AllAmericanRageJunky]

We've been here before - you seem to think that socialism/communism implies the state. It doesn't.
we have? I don't remeber that, not sayin it didn't happen, just that I don't remeber it. Anyhow could you explain please?

I do think that socialism implies a state, mostly because it needs a state to implement it. Communism on the other hand doesn't really need a state (at least in the form a state takes today). On which count am I mistaken?

[AllAmericanRageJunky]

primmo's are twats
:lol: yeah, but to be fair they probably wouldn't be very big fans of folks like us either. :lol:

[analyst]

Communism is a stateless, classless society

[Teh_Gerbil]

:lol: yeah, but to be fair they probably wouldn't be very big fans of folks like us either. :lol:
Or that we are using computers, wearing clothes, living in houses.... let's face it. They are... idiots.

[Spliffie]

The problem with implementing that however is the US.

State-less communism would be easily pickings for the American war machine. Which of course leads to on to theory of international revolution...which certainly isn't on the cards.

Individual nations have headed towards "real" socialism before, and America's standard response was dropping bombs/corrupting the political process/supporting counter-revolutions. Shit, even in this country, Aire Neive was colluding with MI6 to do Tony Benn over back in the 80's.

I'm no fan of the 'ra but i'm glad they whacked that fuck.

[morrocan roll]

a washing machine is not a luxury to a person who has to wash for a household and hold a job down ya dimwits!

antiques ...most things that are simply old ...aren't usualy ollectable or worth a penny.
have a look at the value of roman coins ...2'ooo YEARS OLD and usualy worthless ...cos theres so many of them.

quality and beauty are usualy what people are looking for ...certainly not for using.

if people are allowed to cllect valuable antiques ...and pass them on to their children ...soesn't this stop socialism in its tracks?

[Jim V]

Well socialism is an opposition to the idea of profit and capital, the idea of an item having value added to it in order to create profit for individuals that had no part in its creation - so in an ideal socialist state they just wouldn't cost more than the value of their creation.

[morrocan roll]

Well socialism is an opposition to the idea of profit and capital, the idea of an item having value added to it in order to create profit for individuals that had no part in its creation - so in an ideal socialist state they just wouldn't cost more than the value of their creation.
thats bollox jim.
a passionate clock collector will pay what he has to to obtain what he wants.
thus the value goes up.
when you have a collection of clocks ...they are no ;onger worth the individual prices but a higher price as a collection.
there is no way any political system can stop this from happening and still call itself free.
when someone has amassed a valuable collection of desirable things ...and decides to sell them for any reason ...they will then have money to purchase ...something grand?

or would socialism ...ban this kind of behaviour?

[Teh_Gerbil]

...something grand?

That something grand would certainly not be as overpriced as it is today.
Things just do not cost htat much to make. You pay over the odds because it has a stupid label on it.

[morrocan roll]

That something grand would certainly not be as overpriced as it is today.
Things just do not cost htat much to make. You pay over the odds because it has a stupid label on it.
you pay the going rate for a valuable antique or piece of art ...you do not pay over the odds cos of a stupid label.

you pay for rarity beauty quality.

were not talking fashion labels here.

something grand may well be a nice big house with a nice beeeeg garden.

will stamp collecting have to be made illegal?

no matter what political system you dream up even everyday things can become scarce ...tea sugar bread ...the price will go up way beyond it's production costs simply because of demand.

[AllAmericanRageJunky]

or would socialism ...ban this kind of behaviour?
encourage that it be phased out?

[Blagsta]

a washing machine is not a luxury to a person who has to wash for a household and hold a job down ya dimwits!

antiques ...most things that are simply old ...aren't usualy ollectable or worth a penny.
have a look at the value of roman coins ...2'ooo YEARS OLD and usualy worthless ...cos theres so many of them.

quality and beauty are usualy what people are looking for ...certainly not for using.

if people are allowed to cllect valuable antiques ...and pass them on to their children ...soesn't this stop socialism in its tracks?

No. Next?

[Blagsta]

thats bollox jim.
a passionate clock collector will pay what he has to to obtain what he wants.
thus the value goes up.
when you have a collection of clocks ...they are no ;onger worth the individual prices but a higher price as a collection.
there is no way any political system can stop this from happening and still call itself free.
when someone has amassed a valuable collection of desirable things ...and decides to sell them for any reason ...they will then have money to purchase ...something grand?

or would socialism ...ban this kind of behaviour?

No. Next?

Look mr - it might be an idea if you had an idea of what socialism actually means. Maybe you should read some of the threads on here and some of the links I've posted?

[Blagsta]

you pay the going rate for a valuable antique or piece of art ...you do not pay over the odds cos of a stupid label.

you pay for rarity beauty quality.

were not talking fashion labels here.

something grand may well be a nice big house with a nice beeeeg garden.

will stamp collecting have to be made illegal?

no matter what political system you dream up even everyday things can become scarce ...tea sugar bread ...the price will go up way beyond it's production costs simply because of demand.

You've missed the entire bleeding point (as per). Have a look at this
http://www.infoshop.org/faq/

[The Matadore]

you seem to think that socialism/communism implies the state

Of course it does.

How else could you enforce socialism on a populace that doesnt want it? Through state coercion and the removal of personal freedom, of course.

[Blagsta]

How do you impose capitalism on people? Through the state. How do you let people decide what they want to do and have control over their own lives? Libertarian socialism/communism (aka anarchism).

[klintock]

How do you let people decide what they want to do and have control over their own lives?

Why do you make this so complicated. All you have to do to let people live their own lives is nothing. Just let them get on with it.

Libertarian socialism is a contradiction in terms. Freedom lies in less collectivisation, not more.

[Blagsta]

thats bollox jim.
a passionate clock collector will pay what he has to to obtain what he wants.
thus the value goes up.
when you have a collection of clocks ...they are no ;onger worth the individual prices but a higher price as a collection.
there is no way any political system can stop this from happening and still call itself free.
when someone has amassed a valuable collection of desirable things ...and decides to sell them for any reason ...they will then have money to purchase ...something grand?

or would socialism ...ban this kind of behaviour?

Problem here mr, is that socialism has no problem with that. My problem with capitalism is that it is based on accumulation of capital, capital that is gained through exploitation (i.e. appropriation of someone else's labour). That isn't the case in your little scenario is it?

[minimi38]

Would a collective in control of capital deem it neccessary to build something like in MRs example, just to satisfy an obscure desire? Would they deem it a waste of time or resources?

[Blagsta]

People would be free to build whatever they wanted. Personally, I envisage a society in which the tyranny of wage labour is ended so people would have more time to be creative and create beautiful objects and works of art.

[minimi38]

IF capital is publicly owned wouldnt people have to have approval to do this though?

[Blagsta]

What do you mean by "capital"? What do you mean by "publicly owned"?

[minimi38]

You say people will be free to make what they want. But if the the means of production are owned by a collective why would everyone let you have the tools to build the niche products you want in your life?

[morrocan roll]

Problem here mr, is that socialism has no problem with that. My problem with capitalism is that it is based on accumulation of capital, capital that is gained through exploitation (i.e. appropriation of someone else's labour). That isn't the case in your little scenario is it?i know what your saying here blag but ...capital gained every which way would end up being frowned upon because of human failings ...

[Jim V]

What about reverse interest and limited inhiertence in order to avoid the collection and stockpiling of capital, at least as a measure to avoid more draconian measures.

[Blagsta]

You say people will be free to make what they want. But if the the means of production are owned by a collective why would everyone let you have the tools to build the niche products you want in your life?

Why wouldn't they?

[Blagsta]

i know what your saying here blag but ...capital gained every which way would end up being frowned upon because of human failings ...

I'm not sure what you mean here.

[morrocan roll]

I'm not sure what you mean here.
i'm not to sure myself at the mo mate.
wait till the alohl level drops a bt.