Telling The Truth

[Rich Kid]

How do we know when Phoney Blair is telling the truth? Has anyone yet worked out a fool-proof method? If they have could they please share it with us.

Can anyone give us examples of Phoney actually telling us the truth about key issues?

[budda]

Can you stop calling him Phoney Blair, its really very tiresome.

Anyway, erm, truth, well that the NHS is improving, that interest rates are low, that unemployment is low, that the overall crime rate is down, that asylum applications are down, that a good start?

[Aladdin]

Who is Phoney Blair? :confused:

[Flashman's Ghost]

Like what? If you think he's lying about key issues provide evidence.

I'm sure he puts the best gloss on things, but that's not the same as lying.

[Rich Kid]

For example, (but I wouldn't want to just stay on this subject), did Phoney tell us the truth when going to war in Iraq?

Was Peter Mandelson the best possible candidate this country could appoint as Britains EU Commissioner, as Phoney said he was?

[budda]

For example, (but I wouldn't want to just stay on this subject), did Phoney tell us the truth when going to war in Iraq?

Was Peter Mandelson the best possible candidate this country could appoint as Britains EU Commissioner, as Phoney said he was?

The war is certainly an issue, one which appears to be a grave misjudgement or worse a misuse of information for political ends. But according to the electorate its not a huge issue.

And Mandelson, I may not like him, but do you really know what he's like to work with? I dont.

[Flashman's Ghost]

For example, (but I wouldn't want to just stay on this subject), did Phoney tell us the truth when going to war in Iraq?

Well we now know there weren't any WMDs, but that doesn't mean he lied. It simply means that the intelligence was wrong.

Was Peter Mandelson the best possible candidate this country could appoint as Britains EU Commissioner, as Phoney said he was?

Its not neccessarily a lie. Who's best for a particular job is a matter of opinion. Now I don't happen to think it was Mandleson myself, but I wouldn't accuse Blair of lying because I disagree with his appointments.

[klintock]

He moves his hands slightly to the left when he is telling the truth. Also he has a tiny pause just before he utters something he is uncomfortable with or is qualifying it. Also check for eye tension and sentences that are shorter than normal. When Blair is comfortable he goes on and on - when he doubts that what he is saying is going down well he will pull up short and deftly steer the topic back to safe ground.

Compared to Ollie Letwin he is a master though. Mr Letwin actually shakes his head when he is lying. As in -

"I believe that we can win this election."
Eyes focused on middle distance.
Head shaking slightly in the "no" gesture.

Everyone has patterns for their behaviour. Politicians know this and work it backwards. So we might have Blair going "Terrible Paedophiles" (distinctive left hand movement) "murderers on our streets" (same movement) and then "conservative party" (same movement).

I am guesing this isn't what you were looking for though. :D

[Ibex]

Tony Blair IMO is a living example of a comment made by Michael Flanders (yes, him who wrote The Hippopotamus Song) in the '50s:

Always be sincere, whether you mean it or not!

[Rich Kid]

The war is certainly an issue, one which appears to be a grave misjudgement or worse a misuse of information for political ends. But according to the electorate its not a huge issue.

And Mandelson, I may not like him, but do you really know what he's like to work with? I dont.
Bonga keep up, you're missing the point here. The issue is TRUTH, not what the electorate think is or is not an issue, or whether someone is liked.
If you can't tell the truth then how can a person be trusted?

[klintock]

I can tell when someone is lying or not. Read my above post for an indication of how it can be done.

They ALL lie at times. Who doesn't?

[budda]

Bonga keep up, you're missing the point here. The issue is TRUTH, not what the electorate think is or is not an issue, or whether someone is liked.

No, I believe it is you who is missing the point, the point of elections.

[kevlar85]

I can tell when someone is lying or not. Read my above post for an indication of how it can be done.

They ALL lie at times. Who doesn't?

Funny thing was watching the news yesterday and Theresa May was on it and she could barely stop blinking her eyes (a sign of lying), saying Michael Howard was fighting a good campaign, the Tories were united and they were going to win! Combined with her awkward body language I don't think it was possible for her to be any more unconvincing!

[Rich Kid]

No, I believe it is you who is missing the point, the point of elections.
The topic is called "telling the truth".

[budda]

The topic is called "telling the truth".

Yes, I can read.

My point is, if a majority of people thought he was the screaming liar you say he is then he wouldnt be in power.

So either A) the public think him a liar and dont care or B) the public think he may lie on somethings but is generally better than the opposition

[klintock]

blinking her eyes (a sign of lying),

Just want to point out that is difficult to generalise but that each person does have their own patterns. The neural wiring for left handed people is the reverse of right handed ones as an example. This means when they are lying they give off body language that in a right hander would be "honest" body language and vice versa. Especially eye movement.

She was lying though, I quite agree. Voice tone was all over the place too.

"Sinister" meant left handed originally, btw.

On topic - I think it may be that "Labour" are better liars than the "tories" at least as far as the front men are concerned.

[Rich Kid]

Is Phoney telling the truth when he says he'll stand down during the third adminstration?

What has he told or more to the point promised Gordon Brown?

[klintock]

Is Phoney telling the truth when he says he'll stand down during the third adminstration?

No. If he goes he'll have been forced out. With a reduced majority that will happen.

What has he told or more to the point promised Gordon Brown?

I don't do mind-reading just good guesses based on what I see. I didn't see him promising anyhing so i don't know anything about it.

[budda]

Is Phoney telling the truth when he says he'll stand down during the third adminstration?

I thought he said quite the opposite, in that he would serve out the full term.

[Teh_Gerbil]

Who is Phoney Blair? :confused:

He's this fake Version of Tony who only comes out on Wednesdays, apparently. Or so I heard...

Warning: the above may no be true, it could be Rich Kiddie "attempting" wit.

How do we tell when Michael Howard tells the truth, exactally? Well, i've figured it. If he were to say a necessary truth, he would be. Otherwise, he never does!

[Rich Kid]

Why did John Reid say on ITV News that asylum applications were "down by two-thirds" since Mr Howard was Home Secretary when in fact they have almost doubled?

LIES, LIES, LIES.

[Blagsta]

Just want to point out that is difficult to generalise but that each person does have their own patterns. The neural wiring for left handed people is the reverse of right handed ones as an example. This means when they are lying they give off body language that in a right hander would be "honest" body language and vice versa. Especially eye movement.

Sounds like utter bollocks to me. Got a source for that?

[piccolo]

Why did John Reid say on ITV News that asylum applications were "down by two-thirds" since Mr Howard was Home Secretary when in fact they have almost doubled?

LIES, LIES, LIES.
According to whom? You're assuming that the Conservatives are more honest than Labour just because you support them, it seems to me.

[Flashman's Ghost]

More likely a case of lies, damn lies and statistics.

[MrG]

reminds me of a west wing episode

[klintock]

Sounds like utter bollocks to me. Got a source for that?

How about you go grab another human being and ask them questions related to primary experience and then observe them for yourself.

[Teh_Gerbil]

Why did John Reid say on ITV News that asylum applications were "down by two-thirds" since Mr Howard was Home Secretary when in fact they have almost doubled?

LIES, LIES, LIES.

I like the way you take the Tories statistics to be fact and Labours not.

I reackon in thruth it would be somewhere between the two. So lets take a rough middle value which would make crime down 2%.

Statistics tend to be biased unless from a neutral source that would just think "WTF? Its really X%, not either of them. honeslty!".

I like how the Tories think putting more police on the streets would help. Labour's been doing that for the past two terms! The truth is our Legal system needs an overhaul, we should arm our police, and give them more ways to deal with offenders. Offenders sacrifice their rights when they break the law by imposing on someone elses. So why do they get so many damn rights?

[Jim V]

How about you go grab another human being and ask them questions related to primary experience and then observe them for yourself.

We do ask for sources for generalised opinions - so please find one that explains why left handed people look like they are lying to right handed people

[Blagsta]

How about you go grab another human being and ask them questions related to primary experience and then observe them for yourself.

In other words, you can't back it up.

[morrocan roll]

rich kid ...you heard of substance?

glad to see the left handed people have hyjacked this pointless thread.

[budda]

Offenders sacrifice their rights when they break the law by imposing on someone elses. So why do they get so many damn rights?

Because they are human, because whatever they have done they deserve to be treated humanely. Because as soon as you start seeing them as a lower life form you end up with torture, degredation and horrific crimes. Thats why.

[The_Grapes_of_Sloth]

they deserve to be treated humanely.

You could argue that locking them up isn't very humane...

[budda]

You could argue that locking them up isn't very humane...

Under some of the current conditions no its not, slopping out for example should have gone years ago.

Humans have an tendancy to want to look at others as different as lower than us, and this always leads to trouble.

Take abuse in prisons or old peoples homes, the abusers can do that because they dont see a person anymore, they see the 'scum' that Rich Kid talks about.

[The_Grapes_of_Sloth]

Just playing Devil's Advocate here - I do believe in the necessity of prisons - but take article 3 of the Universal Declaration of Human Rights:

Everyone has the right to life, liberty and security of person.

Liberty is seen as one of the most basic human rights.

[budda]

Just playing Devil's Advocate here - I do believe in the necessity of prisons - but take article 3 of the Universal Declaration of Human Rights:

Everyone has the right to life, liberty and security of person.

Liberty is seen as one of the most basic human rights.

Well yes, but in some cases the right of society to life in safety over rides the persons right to freedom.

[The_Grapes_of_Sloth]

Well yes, but in some cases the right of society to life in safety over rides the persons right to freedom.

Obviously I agree with you, but it does beg the question, if we've already accepted a certain level of cruelty (ie incarceration), at what point do we say 'too much'?

[budda]

Thats a difficult one, and of course does change depending on the type of prisoner that you have.

I've got no serious objection of open prisons, or even day release, certain countries have them and they seem to be a success. But then that needs to only be for prisoners who dont pose a threat or are towards the end of their sentance.

I just think much more needs to be but into the rehabilitation side of prison, its too focused on the punishment side. Which I believe shows in the re-offending rate which is stupidly high.

[Rich Kid]

rich kid ...you heard of substance?
legal or illegal?

Teh_Gerbil :
I like how the Tories think putting more police on the streets would help. Labour's been doing that for the past two terms!
No, lets our facts right, Labour has recruited more Police that is correct but they restricted them to office duties due the massive bureauracy they've introduced.
So in summary, more police, more costs, but less effective police, increasing crime.

bongabudda: I've got no serious objection of open prisons, or even day release, certain countries have them and they seem to be a success. But then that needs to only be for prisoners who dont pose a threat or are towards the end of their sentance.
Day release, open prisons, what a load of nonsense. We want hard regime prisons so that criminals will not want to return should they reoffend and be caught. At the moment we've got Universities of Crime, which give each prisoner a thorough grounding in all aspects of criminology. They should be locked up 23 hrs a day, no gyms, TV, and all the other luxuries they enjoy.

I just think much more needs to be but into the rehabilitation side of prison, its too focused on the punishment side. Which I believe shows in the re-offending rate which is stupidly high.
Forget the rehabilitation, grind their noses into the dirt, they're scum who need to be taught a lesson. It shoud be a regime of absolute punishment from the moment they get up to the moment they go to sleep.

[morrocan roll]

Day release, open prisons, what a load of nonsense. We want hard regime prisons so that criminals will not want to return should they reoffend and be caught. At the moment we've got Universities of Crime, which give each prisoner a thorough grounding in all aspects of criminology. They should be locked up 23 hrs a day, no gyms, TV, and all the other luxuries they enjoy.


.
again you are qouting jeffry archer almost word for word when he was tory chairman.
he soon changed his fucking tune didn't he ...

[Blagsta]

legal or illegal?


No, lets our facts right, Labour has recruited more Police that is correct but they restricted them to office duties due the massive bureauracy they've introduced.
So in summary, more police, more costs, but less effective police, increasing crime.


Day release, open prisons, what a load of nonsense. We want hard regime prisons so that criminals will not want to return should they reoffend and be caught. At the moment we've got Universities of Crime, which give each prisoner a thorough grounding in all aspects of criminology. They should be locked up 23 hrs a day, no gyms, TV, and all the other luxuries they enjoy.


Forget the rehabilitation, grind their noses into the dirt, they're scum who need to be taught a lesson. It shoud be a regime of absolute punishment from the moment they get up to the moment they go to sleep.


As someone who works with ex-offenders, I can tell you that harsh punishments don't work. People who commit crime don't think about the consequences, it just isn't on their radar most of the time.

[budda]

Forget the rehabilitation, grind their noses into the dirt, they're scum who need to be taught a lesson. It shoud be a regime of absolute punishment from the moment they get up to the moment they go to sleep.

Do you have ANY compassion for your fellow humans at all?

If you treat someone like an animal they will behave like one.

[Aladdin]

Do you have ANY compassion for your fellow humans at all? According to him, lots and lots... :rolleyes:

[Rich Kid]

Back to the topic in hand.

Phoney Blair has always denied that he sanctioned the exposure of Dr David Kelly.

Asked on a plane trip to Hong Kong on 22 Jyly 2003: "Why did you authorise the naming of David Kelly?" He replied: "That is completely untrue".

Pressed on whether he asked anyone in Downing Street to do it on his behalf he replied: "Emphatically not. I did not authorise the leaking of the name of David Kelly."

Last night on BBC2's Newsnight, he finally admitted that he did authorise the naming of Dr David Kelly and said he had "no option but to disclsoe the name."

So who can believe a word Phoney Blair says, he's a congenital liar.

Phoney by name and phoney by character - the word "truth" doesn't exist in his vocabulary.
Trust Phoney? I'd rather trust a crack addict pointing a loaded gun at my forehead.

[budda]

If he's so obviously a liar and so obviously this country is going to the dogs why are Labour at least 5 points ahead in the polls?

[Aladdin]

Who is Phoney Blair?

[Rich Kid]

This Phoney Blair, the man who doesn't know truth from fiction.

Phoney Blair has always denied that he sanctioned the exposure of Dr David Kelly.

Asked on a plane trip to Hong Kong on 22 July 2003: "Why did you authorise the naming of David Kelly?" He replied: "That is completely untrue".

Pressed on whether he asked anyone in Downing Street to do it on his behalf he replied: "Emphatically not. I did not authorise the leaking of the name of David Kelly."

Last night on BBC2's Newsnight, he finally admitted that he did authorise the naming of Dr David Kelly and said he had "no option but to disclose the name."

So who can believe a word Phoney Blair says, he's a congenital liar.

Phoney by name and phoney by character - the word "truth" doesn't exist in his vocabulary.
Trust Phoney? I'd rather trust a crack addict pointing a loaded gun at my forehead.

[Blagsta]

Politician in not telling truth scandal!

Shocking.

[budda]

If he's so obviously a liar and so obviously this country is going to the dogs why are Labour at least 5 points ahead in the polls?

Did you have an aswer for that?

[Rich Kid]

Is it me, or is Phoney Blairs nose getting longer?

[budda]

Is it me, or is Phoney Blairs nose getting longer?

I think its you.

[Rich Kid]

Did you have an aswer for that?

Yea. Liars and con-men can get away with murder - sometimes literally.

[budda]

Yea. Liars and con-men can get away with murder - sometimes literally.

You dont have a high regard for the public at large then do you.

[Rich Kid]

You dont have a high regard for the public at large then do you.
We've all been "conned" at some time. It just makes you wary of these con artists when they appear.

[budda]

We've all been "conned" at some time. It just makes you wary of these con artists when they appear.

But it would seem odd if so many people could be 'conned' by Labour for this long, maybe we're just not very smart as a nation.

Or maybe things arent quite as bad as you say.

[Aladdin]

Liars and con-men can get away with murder - sometimes literally.

Tell me about it:

DAILY HATEMAIL: "IMMIGRATION OUT OF CONTROL"

S*N: "GYPSIES OUT OF CONTROL"

SEXPRESS: "CRIME OUT OF CONTROL"

All lies, damned lies and right wing lying scumbags.

[Rich Kid]

The Daily Mail & Express, are in my view, doing the public a great service by bravely highlighting the key issues that concern people in this country today. These are thorny issues that many politicians on the Left are particularly careful not to address because they know they have no real solutions.

It is hardly surprising therefore that people get suspicious when they don't hear Labour politicians facing up to these concerns - whats the secret agenda they ask?

[budda]

These are thorny issues that many politicians on the Left are particularly careful not to address because they know they have no real solutions.

Which politicians on the Left? Whose on the Left?

[Rich Kid]

Which politicians on the Left? Whose on the Left?
Labour party.

[Blagsta]

Labour are not a left wing party.

[budda]

Labour party.

That should probably make the Conservatives Left too then, given that they are wanting only 1% a year less spending growth.

[Aladdin]

The Daily Mail & Express, are in my view, doing the public a great service by bravely highlighting the key issues that concern people in this country today. These are thorny issues that many politicians on the Left are particularly careful not to address because they know they have no real solutions. One thing is highlighting an issue and another thing deliberately lying and misleading to present the situation far worse than it is.

And you know as well as anybody else that is what those tabloids have been doing.

[Rich Kid]

Labour are not a left wing party.
In my view they're veering back to their old ways and this will be accelerated when Gordon steps into no.10. But socialism in any guise is an abomination, even the name "Labour" brings me out in a rash. Can't stand them.

[Blagsta]

In my view they're veering back to their old ways and this will be accelerated when Gordon steps into no.10. But socialism in any guise is an abomination, even the name "Labour" brings me out in a rash. Can't stand them.


All this does is highlight your complete ignorance of politics.

[budda]

But socialism in any guise is an abomination, even the name "Labour" brings me out in a rash. Can't stand them.

Why? Why is socialism so bad?

[Aladdin]

Tory boys and people who see themselves as 'bosses' and 'businessmen' are born with a chip that makes them dislike the words labour and socialist. No, they don't need to understand why.

[budda]

I would have thought as a Christian the ideals of socialism would appeal.

[piccolo]

I would have thought as a Christian the ideals of socialism would appeal.
I think the two sit very closely together in certain ideals. Like if you love everyone equally you treat everyone as equals. After all, God made all men (and women, I know...) equally and He loves us all equally so who are we to create artificial heirachies based on wealth of all things?

[klintock]

I would have thought as a Christian the ideals of socialism would appeal.

Why?

"God" didn't send Jesus down to share "His" power out equally. Why would Christian's want to share theirs?

[Clandestine]

Why do think Christ emphasized that it is easier for a camel to enter the "eye of the needle" (smallest gate in Jerusalem btw) than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of heaven?

RK is just another blathering self indulgent materialist who worships his wealth above all (to the extent of even boasting of it in his profile) and looks down on all those at whose expense that consolidated wealth was made.

You want to speak of "undetected crime" in the other thread, lets examine the much longer running, widespread, and largely unindicted white collar and corporate crime perpetrated on a daily basis around the globe in the insatiable name of "profit".

RK had best invest in asbestos suits and fire extinguishers given his likely destination. ;)

[droid42]

Can you stop calling him Phoney Blair, its really very tiresome.

Ok, how about "Bliar"?

Ian.

[droid42]

If he's so obviously a liar and so obviously this country is going to the dogs why are Labour at least 5 points ahead in the polls?

Because no political party ever failed by overestimating the stupidity of the voting public?

Ian.

[Rich Kid]

Ok, how about "Bliar"?

Ian.
Apt. But I prefer Phoney, as the man is a fake, a phoney, a snake-oil salesman.
To me he'll always be Phoney Blair.
If he shook my hand I'd count my fingers afterwards.

[MrG]

why though, every politician is a liar, to be honest hes done some bad things, but he has done more good in one day at number ten than you will ever do in your life

[Teh_Gerbil]

Rich Kid, Michael Howard has shown himself to be just as untrustworthy as Tony Blair. So, who do you propose we vote for, for Honesty exactally?

And, the fact is, people turn to crime for a reason. If we remove the reason, people won't do it. Detterent effects won't stop those who have a reason to do it, only opportunists.

We need not only to hit the criminals, but the motivation for doing as such.

[Rich Kid]

Rich Kid, Michael Howard has shown himself to be just as untrustworthy as Tony Blair. So, who do you propose we vote for, for Honesty exactally?
I don't necessarily trust Howard either, but lesser of two evils and all that ....

Anyway I've just realised I'll be off to the US on Thursday and will still be there on 5th May, so I've had to quickly organise a proxy vote.

[budda]

Ok, how about "Bliar"?


Thats just as pathetic, if not worse because it doesnt work.

What is a bliar? It doesnt even read properly.

[Flashman's Ghost]

I tend to like the term President Bliar, but then I'm no Jonny Come Lately to not wanting him as Prime Minister (didn't want him in 1997 or 2002).

However like all terms they need to be used sparingly or else they become a meaningless mantra

[Rich Kid]

Returning to the topic "telling the truth", its interesting how we're gradually learning more and more about the supposed legality of Blair's Iraq war.
Each morsel of truth is having to be prised from the Labour Lie Machine but it does seem as though Lord Goldsmith had severe reservations about the legality of the war.

He said:

1) The UN, and not the US or UK, was the appropriate body to decide whether Saddam Hussein was in "material breach" of resolutions aimed at curbing his WMD programme.

2) The UN had not authorised the use of "all necessary means" to enforce its resolutions against Saddam Hussein.

3) A second UN resolution was necessary before hositilites began.

4) Earlier UN resolutions authorising military action were no longer valid.

5) UN weapons inspector Hans Blix was reporting co-operation from Iraq.

6) The US's legal position on the validity of the war did not apply to the UK.

So once again the question has to be asked: Can you believe a word Blair says? Answer: NO.
He took this country into an illegal war in which British lives, amonmg many others, have been sacrificed on the altar of Blair's political ambition. Its a moral disgrace and an effront to democracy, decency, and humanity.

[Flashman's Ghost]

So once again the question has to be asked: Can you believe a word Blair says? Answer: NO.
He took this country into an illegal war in which British lives, amonmg many others, have been sacrificed on the altar of Blair's political ambition. Its a moral disgrace and an effront to democracy, decency, and humanity.

So given that Howard would have broadly done the same - will you be encouraging everyone on this baord to vote Lib Dem?

[budda]

Hmmm, is this from the 'evidence' that the Mail on Sunday used for their article yesterday.

It was a second hand account of what someone saw when they read the paper in the past. Sounds a mite dodgy to me.

However I would very much like to see the legal advice, yet at the same time I can see why it might set a dodgy president in that legal advice should always be private.

[Rich Kid]

Hmmm, is this from the 'evidence' that the Mail on Sunday used for their article yesterday.
No. John Humphrey was interviewing that slippery eel Jack Man-of-Straw this morning on Radio 4.

The 13-page document written by Lord Goldsmith has been leaked. Someone had the decency to put it into the public domain so it could be very interesting to see how it runs - I hope it confirms once-and-for-all the lies and illegality of Blairs Iraq war.

[droid42]

Thats just as pathetic, if not worse because it doesnt work.

What is a bliar? It doesnt even read properly.

Wow, such a serious, stick-up-the-arse response I've never seen on here before.... It's just a misspelling of his name to get the word "liar" ... appropriate given the nature of this debate and his track-record so far ;)

Ian.