new pope [Archive] - TheSite.org boards

Renzo

19-04-2005, 06:34 PM

He will be dead within a few years.

YOu get a short papacy after a long one.

Did you really expect a conservative conclave to elect a liberal papacy after the longest conservative papacy for hundreds of years?

Moron.

No need to get personal Matadore. :|

The Catholic church had this big chance to change its image as an outdated organisation but alas no. Maybe next time ay.

ShyBoy

19-04-2005, 06:36 PM

No need to get personal Matadore. :|

The Catholic church had this big chance to change its image as an outdated organisation but alas no. Maybe next time ay.

To be honest; I don't think they want to change their image :/ I mean there will be some who do, inevitably, but the catholic church are singleminded in sticking to the gospel and will always be as traditionalist as possible....

Renzo

19-04-2005, 06:37 PM

To be honest; I don't think they want to change their image :/ I mean there will be some who do, inevitably, but the catholic church are singleminded in sticking to the gospel and will always be as traditionalist as possible....

If it doesn't adapt to the modern world people are going to start to turn against it more and more though.

Capacity

19-04-2005, 06:40 PM

FFS.

Pope = Catholic leader, no?

If you were a Catholic and you honoured the values of 'anti-contraception' I doubt you'd be pissing and moaning. I've heard plenty of people bitching about how they should modernise their whole scene - none of those people have ever been devout Catholics.

Renzo

19-04-2005, 06:41 PM

Born Slippy

19-04-2005, 07:03 PM

Smash

19-04-2005, 07:10 PM

he'll be gone soon don't worry..

I wouldn't bet on it - just look at his face. It practically screams "I ain't going nowhere, bitches, so you better suck it up"

Renzo

19-04-2005, 07:20 PM

Renzo no one gives a fuck about your pathetic ramblings and fantasies of modernisation. I am sick and tired of being told we live in a modern world - because we have laptop computers and cable TV? No, the world is in the same chaos it was in during the first 50 years of the 20th centaury. And who is to say that 2005 is modern? Nelson commented on the ‘modern world’ at the battle of Trafalgar, and that Renzo, was two hundred years ago. I hope real Catholics continue to abide by the ancient rules and traditions that have governed and served them so well to this day.

Despite the increasing problem of AIDS then? You'd rather see millions of people die rather than the Catholic Church change its out of date ways.

I'm sure a lot of women, homosexuals and AIDS sufferings would 'give a fuck' as you so nicely put it, about modernisation.

Spliffie

19-04-2005, 07:21 PM

If it doesn't adapt to the modern world people are going to start to turn against it more and more though.

People's religiousity is diminishing, regardless of modernisation.

Yerascrote

19-04-2005, 07:27 PM

People's religiousity is diminishing, regardless of modernisation.

thats in today's secularised world...in 3rd world country's religion is growing rapidly...i think the catholic church has a duty to promote good messages instead of sayin "fuck with no condom" well basically thats what they're saying...and people criticise their own political parties for its' choices...you can still be a catholic and criticse the church you know...

Rich Kid

19-04-2005, 07:27 PM

Very reassuring choice of new Pope, someone who will retain Catholic values and not be swayed by "trends". We need a strong anchor in these turbulent times.
So it'll be continued opposition to women priests, abortion, artifical birth control, and the practice of homosexuality.

Renzo

19-04-2005, 07:31 PM

Rich Kid

19-04-2005, 07:33 PM

Whats wrong with those things you mentioned then?
They are contrary to the Church's teaching.

Renzo

19-04-2005, 07:35 PM

They are contrary to the Church's teaching.

So are lots of things but people do them every day.

Are you against them personally?

Rich Kid

19-04-2005, 07:39 PM

Are you against them personally?
As a Christian, a Catholic, I follow the teachings of my Church.

Senor Miguel

19-04-2005, 07:44 PM

lol, what i love is how the cardinals are supposed to vote based on 'divine inspiration', i guess the bookies (http://cbsnewyork.com/pope/pope_story_105080103.html) have a hotline to the man upstairs..........and for once i agree with matadore, i have a hunch this papacy will be a short one......

Mad Mac

19-04-2005, 07:45 PM

can't say it will make any difference to my life...

Rich Kid

19-04-2005, 07:47 PM

Long or short, it does not matter, what is important is that the Will of God is carried forward to the world.

Mad Mac

19-04-2005, 07:48 PM

Long or short, it does not matter, what is important is that the Will of God is carried forward to the world.
mmm,if you say so.

Yerascrote

19-04-2005, 07:48 PM

Long or short, it does not matter, what is important is that the Will of God is carried forward to the world.

and what about the people who reject this ideal...

Renzo

19-04-2005, 07:49 PM

Long or short, it does not matter, what is important is that the Will of God is carried forward to the world.

Shut up.

For a start Only one sixth of the worlds population is Catholic.

Secondly the bible is outdated and is not fit to rule the modern world by.

Thirdly, i don't want to have to have the writings of the bible imposed on me and neither do millions of people.

Rich Kid

19-04-2005, 07:49 PM

and what about the people who reject this ideal...
What people are you referring to?

Yerascrote

19-04-2005, 07:53 PM

What people are you referring to?

anyone who rejects the "will of god" whatever that is...

freethepeeps

19-04-2005, 07:57 PM

Yes, what is this "will of god" of which you speak?

Is it Old Testament or New Testament?

We should be told.

:yes:

Rich Kid

19-04-2005, 08:03 PM

anyone who rejects the "will of god" whatever that is...
We will pray for your soul and hope that you will turn to God.

MrG

19-04-2005, 08:04 PM

what do yo udo if one day god says dont vote conservative

Born Slippy

19-04-2005, 08:05 PM

He will be dead within a few years.

And what if he lives to 100? With the medical care he will receive it is a possibility.

The Matadore

19-04-2005, 08:08 PM

For a start Only one sixth of the worlds population is Catholic.

Thats a pretty goddamn big number of people. Its the largest religious organisation in the world.

Secondly the bible is outdated and is not fit to rule the modern world by.

Says you. Which Guardian article did you lift that out of? Or which post by Aladdin? YOu seriously need to do some thinking of your own, lad.

Thirdly, i don't want to have to have the writings of the bible imposed on me and neither do millions of people.

Where the fuck does the Catholic church do that?

Frankly I admire Catholicisms stability and steadiness in these troubled times. They have not bowed to half-baked secularism or the atheism that is creeping over Europe.

Heh, thats funny, Europe is the only continent where religion is shrinking.

Rich Kid

19-04-2005, 08:11 PM

what do yo udo if one day god says dont vote conservative
Who says I will vote Tory?

Yerascrote

19-04-2005, 08:11 PM

We will pray for your soul and hope that you will turn to God.

what god's that?

the catholic one, the jewish one, the muslim one?

i do have a god...i have my own belief system thank you and i don't want you being pretentious and forcing your belief system down my throat so don't talk about "the will of god" please...

Renzo

19-04-2005, 08:16 PM

Thats a pretty goddamn big number of people. Its the largest religious organisation in the world.

Says you. Which Guardian article did you lift that out of? Or which post by Aladdin? YOu seriously need to do some thinking of your own, lad.

Where the fuck does the Catholic church do that?

Frankly I admire Catholicisms stability and steadiness in these troubled times. They have not bowed to half-baked secularism or the atheism that is creeping over Europe.

Heh, thats funny, Europe is the only continent where religion is shrinking.

1. It may be the biggest but it's not the majority of people is it.

2. I can think for myself. I've studied things and I can make my own decisions. It's what I beleive.

3. Catholism and Christianity in general is always trying to shove their beliefs down peoples throats. I've not seen other religions do this on such a large scale. I'm sick of being preached at and told I'm going to Hell by Catholics and Christians trying to convert me handing out leaflets outside where I go for lectures.

Rich Kid

19-04-2005, 08:20 PM

1. It may be the biggest but it's not the majority of people is it.
So?

2. I can think for myself. I've studied things and I can make my own decisions. It's what I beleive.
Yea, you know best, better than God in fact. One day .....

3. Catholism and Christianity in general is always trying to shove their beliefs down peoples throats. I've not seen other religions do this on such a large scale. I'm sick of being preached at and told I'm going to Hell by Catholics and Christians trying to convert me handing out leaflets outside where I go for lectures.
Christains are committed to spreading the Faith. I see nothing wrong in that, theres always the word "no" Renzo, its not a difficult or long word.

MrG

19-04-2005, 08:23 PM

Who says I will vote Tory?

because your a bleeding tory maniac i know you have said you are not a member of the tory party or anyother party for that matter

but if you hate labour that much, and your not going to vote for the lib dems, id say your going to vote for the torys

Yerascrote

19-04-2005, 08:23 PM

Christains are committed to spreading the Faith. I see nothing wrong in that, theres always the word "no" Renzo, its not a difficult or long word.

seriously...then why when you say no they say "you're gonna burn in hell, we're trying to save you"...like come on...you're only after saying hopefully i'll find faith and the will of God will find us all... :crazyeyes

morrocan roll

19-04-2005, 08:30 PM

To be honest; I don't think they want to change their image :/ I mean there will be some who do, inevitably, but the catholic church are singleminded in sticking to the gospel and will always be as traditionalist as possible....
i didn't get to read any further than this post ...you obviously know bugger all about the gospels if you believe ythe catholic church have any connection to the bible!

Mad Mac

19-04-2005, 08:38 PM

We will pray for your soul and hope that you will turn to God.
i just find it weird,that well educated people think like this???

Senor Miguel

19-04-2005, 09:04 PM

i just find it weird,that well educated people think like this???

i am confused by your statement, are you suggesting RK is a well educated individual?.........or that well educated people must somehow lean towards atheism?..... :confused:

Mad Mac

19-04-2005, 09:09 PM

i am confused by your statement, are you suggesting RK is a well educated individual?.........or that well educated people must somehow lean towards atheism?..... :confused:
yes!......and yes!

Senor Miguel

19-04-2005, 09:14 PM

yes!......and yes!

lol, then im afraid you're wrong on both counts.........

Mad Mac

19-04-2005, 09:25 PM

lol, then im afraid you're wrong on both counts.........
rk seems well educated to me????.....but perhaps that isnt saying much :confused: ....if religion gets you through the day,then who am i to argue?

Renzo

19-04-2005, 09:31 PM

He has described homosexuality as a "tendency" towards an "intrinsic moral evil". During the US election campaign, he called for pro-choice politicians to be denied Communion.

What a charming fellow. :yeees:

BlackArab

19-04-2005, 09:38 PM

Long or short, it does not matter, what is important is that the Will of God is carried forward to the world.

That will be a first for a Pope then.

BlackArab

19-04-2005, 09:40 PM

what god's that?

the catholic one, the jewish one, the muslim one?

i do have a god...i have my own belief system thank you and i don't want you being pretentious and forcing your belief system down my throat so don't talk about "the will of god" please...

*applauds*

:thumb:

Mad Mac

19-04-2005, 09:45 PM

*applauds*

:thumb:
second that! :thumb:

xmizzcattyx

19-04-2005, 10:22 PM

it pisses me off that any debate about religion descends into this.

morrocan roll

19-04-2005, 10:26 PM

it pisses me off that any debate about religion descends into this.
it can never be any other way when such a huge religion calls itself christian and then ...by its fruits it becomes known ....

Clandestine

19-04-2005, 10:51 PM

Hmmm, guess he'll have to prove his moral outrage straight off then by excommunicating Cardinal Law, all other US cardinals and the ranks of priests who have perpetrated paedophilic acts or covered them up for decades across the US. After all, can't lay claim to being "god's voice on earth" (*chortle*) and allow such "intrinsic moral evil" to presume leadership functions over the flock.

Rich Kid

20-04-2005, 10:15 AM

MrG: but if you hate labour that much, and your not going to vote for the lib dems, id say your going to vote for the torys
Who says I'll vote at all? I'm not a member of any political party.

morrocan roll:
i didn't get to read any further than this post ...you obviously know bugger all about the gospels if you believe ythe catholic church have any connection to the bible!
The Catholic Church is the one true Christian Church, founded on earth by Jesus, the Son of God, when he gave St Peter, (the first Pope), the mission to build His Church on earth. The core beliefs are consistent and constant, varying not at the whim of fashion or popular culture. The Church is The Rock.

DEANO MAC: i just find it weird,that well educated people think like this???
Why? Haven't you searched for the "meaning of life" and an answer to the eternal question, "whats it all about?"
Many of the finest brains in the world are believers in God.

morrocan roll:
it can never be any other way when such a huge religion calls itself christian and then ...by its fruits it becomes known ....
We are all sinners living in a sinful world. Fact. God sent his Son, Jesus Christ to die on the cross to redeem our souls, and show us the true path. It is up to us to follow his Word and find Salvation.

Clandestine: Hmmm, guess he'll have to prove his moral outrage straight off then by excommunicating Cardinal Law, all other US cardinals and the ranks of priests who have perpetrated paedophilic acts or covered them up for decades across the US. After all, can't lay claim to being "god's voice on earth" (*chortle*) and allow such "intrinsic moral evil" to presume leadership functions over the flock.
As I've said above, we are all sinners, including the Pope. We look for forgiveness for our sins through a merciful God and help in leading a good Christian life.

seeker

20-04-2005, 10:59 AM

We are all sinners living in a sinful world. Fact.

Here is another "sinner". (http://mdn.mainichi.co.jp/waiwai/face/0504/15kin.html) Is he a "sinner" because of what he did? Because of his "church" ?

I think we need to know, FACTUALLY,what is a sin ? Over to the man with the answer(hopefully),Rich Kid.

seeker

Aladdin

20-04-2005, 11:51 AM

As a Christian, a Catholic, I follow the teachings of my Church. No you don't. Judging by what you attempt to brag on about in here, you couldn't be more apart from the faith you allegedly follow if you tried.

Oh and by the way... there is no such a thing as a "sin". Fact.

Ibex

20-04-2005, 11:51 AM

So the Catholic Church have elected themselves an ultra-conservative former Nazi as their next pope? I couldn't care less!

For one, what the Catholic Church thinks is of no moment to me whatsoever - unless they try and preach it to me, in which case I'll tell them precisely what I think of their corrupt organisation. For two, a figure like Ratzinger is just going to alienate people - in Europe anyway - so, far from reversing the decline of Catholicism, he's probably going to hasten it.

I remember seeing on Newsnight a few weeks ago that in France - nominally a Catholic country - they've such a shortage of recruits to the priesthood tha the average ago of Catholic priests is nearly 80, that each of them is managing an average of five or six parishes, and they're actually having to import priests from former French colonies. In other words, Catholicism in France is on the verge of collapse. Can't see Ratzinger doing much to reverse that.

At 78, he's not going to have all that long in office anyway - not nearly as long as John Paul II.

Flashman's Ghost

20-04-2005, 11:58 AM

Being a member of the Hitler Youth does not make you a former Nazi. It was compulsory and you had no choice on whether you joined or not.

Rich Kid

20-04-2005, 11:59 AM

No you don't. Judging by what you attempt to brag on about in here, you couldn't be more apart from the faith you allegedly follow if you tried.
"Judge and you shall not be judged". My Christian faith is a very close and personal thing for me and I will pray for the redemption of your soul lamp boy.

Oh and by the way... there is no such a thing as a "sin". Fact.
There is a God. There is a Satan. There is Sin. The eternal battle goes on but in this imperfect, sinful world, we are all sinners whose only hope of salvation is through the Lord Jesus Christ, Our Saviour, who gave His life that we may live in eternal happiness with Him.
Ask for forgiveness for your sins, truly repent and you will be forgiven, even you lamp boy.

klintock

20-04-2005, 12:03 PM

There is a God. There is a Satan.

Proof please.

we are all sinners

Proof please or an apology. Keep your irrational "faith" to youself god-botherer.

Ask for forgiveness for your sins, truly repent and you will be forgiven

By who and how will I know?

Proof please.

Aladdin

20-04-2005, 12:03 PM

"Judge and you shall not be judged". My Christian faith is a very close and personal thing for me and I will pray for the redemption of your soul lamp boy. Before you start praying for me spoilt child you'd be well advised to give your fortune to the poor.

Remember, rich people like you have a express one way ticket to hell, according to your own religion.

And there is no way around that, no matter how hard you try.

There is a God. There is a Satan. There is Sin. The eternal battle goes on but in this imperfect, sinful world, we are all sinners whose only hope of salvation is through the Lord Jesus Christ, Our Saviour, who gave His life that we may live in eternal happiness with Him.
Ask for forgiveness for your sins, truly repent and you will be forgiven, even you lamp boy. There isn't a God. There isn't a Satan. There is no such thing as "sin".

End of.

hobbs

20-04-2005, 12:10 PM

The Catholic Church is the one true Christian Church, founded on earth by Jesus, the Son of God, when he gave St Peter, (the first Pope), the mission to build His Church on earth. The core beliefs are consistent and constant, varying not at the whim of fashion or popular culture. The Church is The Rock.

what utter shite (IMO)

Rich Kid

20-04-2005, 12:10 PM

Before you start praying for me spoilt child you'd be well advised to give your fortune to the poor.

Remember, rich people like you have a express one way ticket to hell, according to your own religion.

And there is no way around that, no matter how hard you try.
Its not what you have, its how you conduct your life that counts. I lead a good Christian life, go to Mass, help charities, and generally try to make the world a better place for everyone. I believe my contribution is a positive one in line with Christ's teachings. What do you do lamp boy?

There isn't a God. There isn't a Satan. There is no such thing as "sin".
End of.
In your opinion.
I'll still pray for your soul lamp boy, its my Christian duty to do so. Love thy neighbour as oneself.

klintock

20-04-2005, 12:12 PM

In your opinion

Prove your own opinion first RK.

Any chance of the proof i asked you for or are you going to ignore my post like you block out all else that doesn't fit your world view?

Aladdin

20-04-2005, 12:14 PM

Its not what you have, its how you conduct your life that counts. I lead a good Christian life, go to Mass, help charities, and generally try to make the world a better place for everyone. I believe my contribution is a positive one in line with Christ's teachings. What do you do lamp boy?
LOL. You ignore the single most important message Jesus had to give: to love and help others. You despise a great many people and even wish death on them. You are against those in desperate situation coming to this country in search of a better life. You claim to be considerably wealthy, which regardless of your protestations is a definite no-no in Heaven- you should be distributing all your wealth amongst those less fortunate than you.

In short, if you were to meet Jesus he'd give you a massive slap and send you straight to the chap downstairs for a few lessons in humility.

In your opinion. Fact.

Rich Kid

20-04-2005, 12:25 PM

LOL. You ignore the single most important message Jesus had to give: to love and help others.
Yet again you twist words. I have said, and I'll say it again for the last time, I love and help others. Its my Christian duty to do so and I enjoy helping my fellow Man.
You despise a great many people and even wish death on them. You are against those in desperate situation coming to this country in search of a better life.
I do not despise people, but I only wish justice on wrong-doers, not necessarily death, although death cannot be ruled out in some extreme cases.
If "everyone came here in search of a better life" then we would be an even more crowded island than we are already and the already creaking infrastructure would totally collapse, resulting in social instability and a fractured society. Is that what you are advocating?
You claim to be considerably wealthy, which regardless of your protestations is a definite no-no in Heaven- you should be distributing all your wealth amongst those less fortunate than you.
I do my bit so I have no fears there lamp boy, rest assured.

In short, if you were to meet Jesus he'd give you a massive slap and send you straight to the chap downstairs for a few lessons in humility.
Fact.
"Judge and you shall not be judged". How presumptuous of you to assume that you know what Jesus would do, it displays an arrogance so often found in those that rush to judge others.
I'll still pray for the redemption of your soul lamp boy.

Aladdin

20-04-2005, 12:35 PM

Yet again you twist words. I have said, and I'll say it again for the last time, I love and help others. Its my Christian duty to do so and I enjoy helping my fellow Man.
Other than homosexuals, pregnant women, gypsies, immigrants, drug users, the poor...

I do not despise people, but I only wish justice on wrong-doers, not necessarily death, although death cannot be ruled out in some extreme cases.
If "everyone came here in search of a better life" then we would be an even more crowded island than we are already and the already creaking infrastructure would totally collapse, resulting in social instability and a fractured society. Is that what you are advocating? We're nowhere near that situation by a million times, as you know very well.

And as for "justice on wrong-doers", if you knew but the most basic teachings of the Bible and Jesus you would know what JHC would think of your wishing drug addicts would overdose and die, or that drug dealers should hung from lampposts.

I do my bit so I have no fears there lamp boy, rest assured. Are you rich?

If the answer if yes, you're not doing enough and you're going to hell.

End of.

usual suspect

20-04-2005, 12:36 PM

"Judge and you shall not be judged". How presumptuous of you to assume that you know what Jesus would do, it displays an arrogance so often found in those that rush to judge others.
I'll still pray for the redemption of your soul lamp boy.

How ironic that you continue to use the above quote, when ALL you have been doing is judging others. As you say, it isn't YOUR job to do that - try and practice a bit more of what you preach and apply a bit of tolerance to others as well. what ever happened to 'let he who is without sin, cast the first stone' etc.?

klintock

20-04-2005, 12:36 PM

justice

Find me a passage from the bible that has Jesus asking for justice. I bet you can't find one. I also bet you can find dozens of examples of him forgiving folk no matter what though.

No how about some proof for this "god" character or that "satan" guy?

Senor Miguel

20-04-2005, 12:57 PM

what utter shite (IMO)

:thumb: ..........catholic church founded on earth by jesus? never heard such crap in my life.......

hobbs

20-04-2005, 01:10 PM

"Judge and you shall not be judged"..

you have now said this twice - where is this quote from, because its not in the many different versions of the Bible i have read.

I'll still pray for the redemption of your soul lamp boy.

where is the biblical precident for praying for the redemptions of the soul of another?

Philippians 2:12

Rich Kid

20-04-2005, 01:30 PM

Other than homosexuals, pregnant women, gypsies, immigrants, drug users, the poor...
If you're implying I have anything against such people, you're wrong yet again lamp boy. I may not agree with issues to do with those listed but thats not the same thing at all. They're all human beings with a soul and we should show compassion but nevertheless not tolerate wrong-doing.

We're nowhere near that situation by a million times, as you know very well.
The infrastructure is creaking and will collapse as well you know should we have a continous stream of people coming to live here. Housing, schools, medical centres, hospitals, would all be placed under even greater strain resulting in a de-stablised society. We are probably the most densely populated country compared to France & Germany. Are you seeking to de-stablise society?

And as for "justice on wrong-doers", if you knew but the most basic teachings of the Bible and Jesus you would know what JHC would think of your wishing drug addicts would overdose and die, or that drug dealers should hung from lampposts.
Justice not revenge. Jesus believed in the law even when it came to paying taxes.

Are you rich?
If the answer if yes, you're not doing enough and you're going to hell.
End of.
I'm not going to answer a personal question like that except to say I haven't got to worry about money but that does not mean I'll go to hell. As I say I lead as good as Christian life as I can, help my fellow Man, and seek forgiveness for my sins.
I'll still pray for the redemption of your soul lamp boy.

klintock

20-04-2005, 01:35 PM

They're all human beings with a soul

Proof please.

The infrastructure is creaking

Proof please.

Housing, schools, medical centres, hospitals, would all be placed under even greater strain resulting in a de-stablised society

Proof please.

Justice not revenge. Jesus believed in the law even when it came to paying taxes.

Proof please.

hell

Proof please.

sins.

Proof please.

You get the idea by now RK. Instead of posting shite how about something resembling proof instead?

Capacity

20-04-2005, 01:46 PM

klintock: You are an idiot. Why don't you prove they don't exist? You can't. Just as he can't prove they do. He can only believe. And you can only choose not to.

Rich Kid: I'm all for the Christian faith and from what I've read I'd say we have similar beliefs, but trying to force them onto others isn't going to get you anywhere.

Born Slippy

20-04-2005, 01:46 PM

Do the people trying to tear Rich Kid to shreds not realise what the Christian religion teachers? Unlike hideous religions like Islam (wait for that to get edited) - in short- it teachers love your neighbour and treat others with respect and good nature. If we all followed the Christian religion there would be no more murder, no more crime, no more pain and no more suffering ever again.

Aladdin

20-04-2005, 01:49 PM

If you're implying I have anything against such people, you're wrong yet again lamp boy. I may not agree with issues to do with those listed but thats not the same thing at all. They're all human beings with a soul and we should show compassion but nevertheless not tolerate wrong-doing. And what wrongdoing would that be, exactly?

The infrastructure is creaking and will collapse as well you know should we have a continous stream of people coming to live here. Housing, schools, medical centres, hospitals, would all be placed under even greater strain resulting in a de-stablised society. We are probably the most densely populated country compared to France & Germany. Are you seeking to de-stablise society? Creaking and about to collapse eh? LOL! And you talk about "lies and spin"?

Justice not revenge. Jesus believed in the law even when it came to paying taxes. Are you on ket this morning?

And do you think he would have approved of your suggestion that drug dealers should be executed and hung from lampposts?

Do you have but the slightest glimpse of an idea of what Jesus actually taught?

Or is there a special Bible printed and distributed for your kind, that the rest of us don't know about?

I'm not going to answer a personal question like that except to say I haven't got to worry about money but that does not mean I'll go to hell. As I say I lead as good as Christian life as I can, help my fellow Man, and seek forgiveness for my sins.
You don't need to answer now... LOL. You have already done so many times, from the very name you have chosen to your endless gratitouts remarks about nice houses, BMWs, multi-million Pound family business and investment opportunities.

According to your own bragging, you ARE rich.

And thus, unless you dispose of that wealth pretty soon, you ARE going to hell.

Sorry fella.

Ibex

20-04-2005, 01:51 PM

Do the people trying to tear Rich Kid to shreds not relies what the Christian religion teachers? Unlike hideous religions like Islam (wait for that to get edited) - in short- it teachers love your neighbour and treat others with respect and good nature.

Of course all Christians always teach respect and good nature. That's why quite a few of them want single mothers, homsexuals, drug users, athiests, followers of other faiths etc etc ostracised, socially excluded and barred from voicing their opinions. I take it you've seen evangelical websites in the US that call for the execution of one or more of those groups?

If we all followed the Christian religion there would be no more murder, no more crime, no more pain and no more suffering ever again.

I'm sure that's exactly what the Taliban said when they took power in Afghanistan. And whatever you may say, Christianity and Islam are precisely the same at heart - theistic religions with pretensions to universality and an inbuilt intolerance to those who question them.

usual suspect

20-04-2005, 01:52 PM

Aladdin

20-04-2005, 01:58 PM

Rich Kid

20-04-2005, 01:59 PM

Rich Kid: I'm all for the Christian faith and from what I've read I'd say we have similar beliefs, but trying to force them onto others isn't going to get you anywhere.
You're right Capacity. I'm coming from a Christian view-point when most of those opposing are atheists. The trouble is the Faith cannot be comprised by trendiniess, fads or fashion, or popluar culture, it must remain pure despite those who cannot or will not accept it.

Born Slippy

20-04-2005, 02:02 PM

Your ignorance of Islam is gigantic.

Your hatred of religion is repulsive.

Rich Kid

20-04-2005, 02:03 PM

Your hatred of religion is repulsive.
Well said Born Slippy, lamp boy sups with Satan.

Aladdin

20-04-2005, 02:08 PM

Your hatred of religion is repulsive. LOL. And you dare speak?

Do tell us why Islam is so hideous then.

Aladdin

20-04-2005, 02:09 PM

Well said Born Slippy, lamp boy sups with Satan. :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

klintock

20-04-2005, 02:10 PM

klintock: You are an idiot. Why don't you prove they don't exist? You can't. Just as he can't prove they do. He can only believe. And you can only choose not to.

Sure I can.

What sort of proof would you like?

Scientific? Empirical? Methodological? Sensory?

Pick one.

Or how about advancing some proof of your own.
Oh and very christian the whole "you are an idiot" bit. Now the christian thing to do here would be apologise, so I will let you do it now.

One more time - proof please.

Teh_Gerbil

20-04-2005, 02:13 PM

Actually, for those who know shit all about Islam it preaches nearly the same as The Bible, peace amoungst men etc, but just like Christianity abused The Bible, Islamist extremists chose to abuse the Koran, using it as a tool for hate like Christian extremists do.

Religion is abused by those who desire power, all the time. George Bush appealing to the Christian Extremists while carrying out word contradicting The Bible itself, Osama Bin Laden doing the same with the Koran. The Inquisition was the worst that The Bible was ever used for; Where exactally has Islam ever done something that bad?

No Religion is my choice to, so I am obviously a Godless hethen and you two would have me burnt at the stake. But at least I don't think my Religion is the one to end all religions, I can accept people have different beleifs to my own, and at least I understand them. Unlike you two, obviously.

Ignorance is no Excuse.

Dear Wendy

20-04-2005, 02:17 PM

Secondly the bible is outdated and is not fit to rule the modern world by.

Thirdly, i don't want to have to have the writings of the bible imposed on me and neither do millions of people.

The bible is not outdated - the people interpretating it might be though.

Dear Wendy

20-04-2005, 02:32 PM

I understand that the choice of the new pope sends out a signal and whatever, but at the end of the day you have to realise that in less than a week no one will care.
Who cared about John Paul? Seriously, who even regarded him as a spokesperson for the Catholic Church?

Aladdin

20-04-2005, 02:36 PM

Rich Kid

20-04-2005, 02:36 PM

klintock

20-04-2005, 02:36 PM

The bible is not outdated - the people interpretating it might be though.

:eek2: :nervous:

http://www.thebricktestament.com/the_law/homosexuality/lv18_22.html

http://www.thebricktestament.com/the_law/religious_tolerance/dt13_15-16.html

Have you ever read the fucking book? It's all stations to barking and about as relevant to modern life as a dinosaur.

Aladdin

20-04-2005, 02:45 PM

That is a vintage website klintock! :D

Rich Kid

20-04-2005, 02:56 PM

Catholics across the world are rejoicing with the appointment of their new Pope. A strong leader who will ensure that the core beliefs of the Church remain unsullied by the latest fads, fashion or cultural changes, in todays secular and sinful world, he will keep the falme of eternal Truth burning for us all.
Truly a man of God, a man of destiny, a man to carry the Church forward against the evils and transgressions that pollute the minds and bodies of humanity.
"To thee Peter I give the keys to the kingdom of heaven and upon this rock you shall build my Church and the gates of hell shall not prevail against thee."

Anyone interested in having a full length copy of the Latin Mass?

RiSe & ShIne

20-04-2005, 02:58 PM

RK, i listen to Death, Black and other forms of Metal music. This music has been hailed as Satanic by some people. Is this a sin? :(

klintock

20-04-2005, 02:59 PM

God,
destiny
sinful

Proof please.

Anyone interested in having a full length copy of the Latin Mass?

I prefer andrex but thanks.

Rich Kid

20-04-2005, 03:01 PM

RK, i listen to Death, Black and other forms of Metal music. This music has been hailed as Satanic by some people. Is this a sin? :(
I don't them but when is music a sin?
A sin is a conscious act that offends God, surely music is about enjoyment and happiness - or is it used for Satanic worship?

RiSe & ShIne

20-04-2005, 03:10 PM

I don't them but when is music a sin?

You tell me.

Not the type of God botherer to protest ouside a Marilyn Manson or Slayer concert then?

Dear Wendy

20-04-2005, 03:16 PM

Sadly hundreds of millions of people in Africa and throughout the world do.

Sadly the heads of the Catholic Church in countless countries do.

And as a result condoms are not as freely available as they should (or they're banned altogether).

And millions of people will die a needless death through AIDS.

And entire nations will continue to starve due to overpopulation.

And women will continue to have a basic yet fundamental personal choice refused.

And homosexuals will continue to be persecuted.

I do realize that as an institution a lot of people are affected by the choice. And that Ratzinger seems as a man who want his beliefs to be heavily implemented in the church. But as a man - a personality - (almost) no one gives a fuck about him. At least that's my perception.

Dear Wendy

20-04-2005, 03:21 PM

Dear oh dear you poor soul. I'll pray for you.

DO NOT EVEN MAKE FUN OF THAT!
I am perfectly aware of my choices and don't need anyone praying for me, as I am happy about the way I lead my life and the way upon I view the world.

Dear Wendy

20-04-2005, 03:23 PM

:eek2: :nervous:

http://www.thebricktestament.com/the_law/homosexuality/lv18_22.html

http://www.thebricktestament.com/the_law/religious_tolerance/dt13_15-16.html

Have you ever read the fucking book? It's all stations to barking and about as relevant to modern life as a dinosaur.

It's all about your analysis. I have found it's message being very rewarding.
Just as some might have it with Tolkien's Lord of the Ring, or Terry Pratchett's Discworld series.

klintock

20-04-2005, 03:30 PM

O-kay.

let's have some direct quotes from the "good book" then. -

'If your brother, or your son or daughter, or your beloved wife tries to secretly entice you, telling you to go and worship other gods, gods of people living near you, or far from you, or anywhere on earth, do not listen to him.

'You must kill them. Show them no pity. And your hand must strike the first blow.

Deuteronomy 13:8-9

Not for me thanks. And this kind of crap riddles the whole book. It's cut off this and beat that. Ramblings of ancient madmen at best.

Dear Wendy

20-04-2005, 03:34 PM

O-kay.

let's have some direct quotes from the "good book" then. -

Deuteronomy 13:8-9

Not for me thanks. And this kind of crap riddles the whole book. It's cut off this and beat that. Ramblings of ancient madmen at best.

I am not promoting blind faith, or litteral following. I know there are disgusting passages, but in my world it's about taking what you need and shitting on the rest.

RiSe & ShIne

20-04-2005, 03:35 PM

O-kay.

let's have some direct quotes from the "good book" then. -

Deuteronomy 13:8-9

Not for me thanks. And this kind of crap riddles the whole book. It's cut off this and beat that. Ramblings of ancient madmen at best.

I wonder if I could get God to represent me in a Court of Law.

Rich Kid

20-04-2005, 03:56 PM

I am not promoting blind faith, or litteral following. I know there are disgusting passages, but in my world it's about taking what you need and shitting on the rest.
You don't want the set menu, the Chefs Choice, you want a la carte Christianity Wendy. Don't work that way I'm afraid.

klintock

20-04-2005, 04:01 PM

You don't want the set menu, the Chefs Choice, you want a la carte Christianity Wendy. Don't work that way I'm afraid.

Which is why any sane human being rejects the whole thing as bullshit.

Dear Wendy

20-04-2005, 04:01 PM

You don't want the set menu, the Chefs Choice, you want a la carte Christianity Wendy. Don't work that way I'm afraid.

I don't want Christianity!!!

Ibex

20-04-2005, 04:02 PM

You don't want the set menu, the Chefs Choice, you want a la carte Christianity Wendy. Don't work that way I'm afraid.

It does.

Plenty of conservative Christians are happy to condemn homosexuality, whilst ignoring all of the other proscriptions in Leviticus - for example on eating shellfish, going near a woman in her 'uncleanness' etc etc

There is nothing in scripture to justify having a Pope as God's representative on earth - nor the Catholic church's position on birth control.

Many Christians take a high moral line on, say, prostitution, whilst forgetting that Jesus went out and mixed with prostitutes and other social outcasts.

The list is potentially endless.

Whatever conservative Christians may say, religion is all about human interpretation. Everyone picks and chooses the bits they want, and everyone compromises their principles to accomodate the modern world.

Capacity

20-04-2005, 04:02 PM

Sure I can.

What sort of proof would you like?

Scientific? Empirical? Methodological? Sensory?

Pick one.

Or how about advancing some proof of your own.
Oh and very christian the whole "you are an idiot" bit. Now the christian thing to do here would be apologise, so I will let you do it now.

One more time - proof please.

See, you're one of these people who takes every Christian and tries to disprove them so - just because you don't believe it yourself.

For the last time, it can NEVER be proved. EVER. Do you understand that? In terms of arguement, it is your word against his. Just to make my point, you prove to me that God doesn't exist. g0g00g

Capacity

20-04-2005, 04:05 PM

Which is why any sane human being rejects the whole thing as bullshit.

How very ignorant of you.

klintock

20-04-2005, 04:07 PM

you prove to me that God doesn't exist.

That's what I would say I would do. Pick a type of proof from the lists and I will happily go through the process and show you there is no great big beard in the sky. Simple really.

Pick a proof. Drop the "god".

Dear Wendy

20-04-2005, 04:09 PM

That's what I would say I would do. Pick a type of proof from the lists and I will happily go through the process and show you there is no great big beard in the sky. Simple really.

Pick a proof. Drop the "god".

You're exactly like Clandestine! Seriously! Same kind of faulty logic.

Capacity

20-04-2005, 04:10 PM

You don't want the set menu, the Chefs Choice, you want a la carte Christianity Wendy. Don't work that way I'm afraid.

Why doesn't it work that way?

I used to say exactly the same (when I was about 12), I used to run around like a tit telling people that they can't be selective with their beliefs. Every time they just went "hmph 'spose". Guess what one bloke said to me one day? He said 'why not?' So, why not? They're our beliefs, not anyone elses. Nobody else need believe them. Insisting we all believe the same would suggest you're more bothered with how others see you than what you actually believe yourself. And how could I be a hypocrite? I follow a great deal of Christian traditions and beliefs, but if you expect me never to swear at nubs who say PROOOF PLZ THX LOLZ, or love the man who has run their keys along my car, you're living unrealistically... Maybe 10's of thousands of years ago it would have been possible.. Who knows..

Rich Kid

20-04-2005, 04:11 PM

Ibex: everyone compromises their principles to accomodate the modern world.
No they don't. The Catholic Church doesn't, its aRock of stability in a world of floating morality where people indulge to satisfy their own selfish desires whilst sticking two fingers up to the rest of humanity. We are a God-less, selfish society that has lost sight of God. The Day of Reckoning will come however.

klintock

20-04-2005, 04:12 PM

How very ignorant of you.

Forgive me.

You're exactly like Clandestine! Seriously! Same kind of faulty logic.

Explain please.

Dear Wendy

20-04-2005, 04:17 PM

Forgive me.

Explain please.

He goes on about books I should read in order to get an insight on the mid-east situation. Books written by experts. I could give him a booklist with Harvard and Oxford scholars too. So, what was his point?
He says I am close-minded and that he hopes I one day get an insight, I can say the exact same thing to him.

You say you can disprove a God, yet there are oh so many theories who say that they can prove one.
By no means have you gained anything by your logic, as everything can be countered!

Ibex

20-04-2005, 04:18 PM

No they don't. The Catholic Church doesn't, its aRock of stability in a world of floating morality where people indulge to satisfy their own selfish desires whilst sticking two fingers up to the rest of humanity.

Are you seriously suggesting that the Catholic church believes exactly the same as it did a millenium ago?

That's a pretty hard case to sustain. After all, they've given up on crusading; they're not that keen on the Inquisition any more because they've accepted that other Christian factions exist and cannot be stamped out; they've accepted that church and government must be separate etc etc.

The Catholic church has in fact done a rather good job of adapting to the changing political landscape over the last two millenia. Had it not, I doubt we'd be discussing the election of a new pope now.

The Catholic church is as guilty of 'a la carte Christianity' (your phrase - I borrowed it because I rather like it) as any other religious sect.

klintock

20-04-2005, 04:31 PM

You say you can disprove a God, yet there are oh so many theories who say that they can prove one

Thanks for the explanation. My point is that if you pick a proof and then we work through it then we will find that there is no "god". I certainly don't think that trading one book for another will get you any closer to proof of "god".

By no means have you gained anything by your logic, as everything can be countered!

My logic is to ask those who believe to pick a proof that they would hold as indisputable and then to use the rationale of that type of proof to dismiss "god". You pick the game, and then I will win it.

Pick a proof and let's get this over with.

I don't mind "belief" in "god" as long as it comes a light year or two behind things that can be proven to work and common bastard sense.

Dear Wendy

20-04-2005, 04:37 PM

Thanks for the explanation. My point is that if you pick a proof and then we work through it then we will find that there is no "god". I certainly don't think that trading one book for another will get you any closer to proof of "god".

My logic is to ask those who believe to pick a proof that they would hold as indisputable and then to use the rationale of that type of proof to dismiss "god". You pick the game, and then I will win it.

Pick a proof and let's get this over with.

I don't mind "belief" in "god" as long as it comes a light year or two behind things that can be proven to work and common bastard sense.

Can you prove the big bang theory?

klintock

20-04-2005, 04:44 PM

No.

Does it try to tell me how to live my life?

No.

So I really don't care about it.

Now. About that "god" character - Pick a type of proof that you would accept and let's get this over with.

RiSe & ShIne

20-04-2005, 04:44 PM

Rich Kid, answer my question.

Senor Miguel

20-04-2005, 04:51 PM

klintock, your suggestion that any sane intelligent person rejects christianity and god is not only insulting but entirely ignorant..........what are you basing this statement on? trust me, your warped perception of reality isn't good enough.......as capacity said you can no more disprove it than i can prove it..........that's why it's called having faith, you wouldn't need to have bloody faith if you could see it with your eyes.........you dont want to believe it, great i don't care.........but stop forcing your presumptions as somehow factual when it actually makes less sense than some of your wilder rantings..........

CptCoatHanger

20-04-2005, 04:57 PM

You don't want the set menu, the Chefs Choice, you want a la carte Christianity Wendy. Don't work that way I'm afraid.

That's a beauty!

Leviticus 25:44 states that I may possess slaves, both male and female, provided they are purchased from neighboring nations. Seeing as we're being so strict about the whole affair, is that cool with you?

I would also like to sell my daughter into slavery, as sanctioned in Exodus 21:7. What do you think a fair price would be?

I have a neighbor who insists on working on the Sabbath. Exodus 35:2. Now i know i'm within my rights to put him to death but doesn't that go against the sixth commandment?

Lev. 21:20 states that I may not approach the altar of God if I have a defect in my sight. I have to admit that I wear reading glasses. Does my vision have to be 20/20, or is there some wiggle-room here?

Most of my male friends get their hair trimmed, including the hair around their temples, even though this is expressly forbidden by Lev. 19:27. How should they die?

I could go on and on but i think the points been made.

klintock

20-04-2005, 04:58 PM

Dear Wendy

20-04-2005, 05:00 PM

No.

Does it try to tell me how to live my life?

No.

So I really don't care about it.

Now. About that "god" character - Pick a type of proof that you would accept and let's get this over with.

If you need to confirm your nonbelieve in God, then go ahead. Frankly, I am not interested in your stupid ping pong game, as I have nothing to gain from it whatsoever.
Go ahead, feel intelligent, regard the believers here as stupid, hope it's made your day :)

Senor Miguel

20-04-2005, 05:02 PM

Okay mate. Sorry if I caused any offence. I am basing this on the fact that sane people don't see things that aren't there.

I can prove that there is no "god" though. All you have to do is pick a form of proof and then we can get cracking.

but that's just it, i DONT see god........i don't have to, i still believe he exists.........and what this form of proof rubbish? a good analogy would be how do you prove aliens don't exist, you can't, the universe is pretty much infinite.........you could not prove there is no god unless you were he........so i'll leave you with that paradox.

Dear Wendy

20-04-2005, 05:02 PM

Okay mate. Sorry if I caused any offence. I am basing this on the fact that sane people don't see things that aren't there.

Who says the light isn't off? ;)

klintock

20-04-2005, 05:16 PM

Who says the light isn't off?

I don't know. I am deaf.

but that's just it, i DONT see god........i don't have to, i still believe he exists.........and what this form of proof rubbish? a good analogy would be how do you prove aliens don't exist, you can't, the universe is pretty much infinite.........you could not prove there is no god unless you were he........so i'll leave you with that paradox.

Okay. Fair enough. I ain't winning here, mainly because you lot refuse to see sense. You know deep down that you are wrong but won't admit it. That's okay by me and I will leave you to it.

For you the absence of proof is the need for belief and so the less proof the more belief needed. On that logic, no wonder "god" never shows himself.

:rolleyes:

BlackArab

20-04-2005, 05:18 PM

[QUOTE=Rich Kid]

The Catholic Church is the one true Christian Church, founded on earth by Jesus, the Son of God, when he gave St Peter, (the first Pope), the mission to build His Church on earth. The core beliefs are consistent and constant, varying not at the whim of fashion or popular culture. The Church is The Rock.

QUOTE]

Absolute rubbish

Mad Mac

20-04-2005, 05:29 PM

Dear Wendy

20-04-2005, 05:43 PM

i wonder why religious people take it upon themselves to spread the good word to people that arn't interested?
shouldnt non believers be able to speak out,as you god squaders do?
why do religious people forgive me for my sins??...i dont want you to!!

It is far from all religious people who are missionary pains in the ass.
And not all people who have a religion or believe in God are religious.
And what would you call Klintock who's set on disproving God? Isn't he as bad as the born again Christian standing by Leicester Square spreading his word?

Yerascrote

20-04-2005, 05:50 PM

It is far from all religious people who are missionary pains in the ass.
And not all people who have a religion or believe in God are religious.
And what would you call Klintock who's set on disproving God? Isn't he as bad as the born again Christian standing by Leicester Square spreading his word?

if an atheist came up to me in the street with leaflets about how god doesn't exist i'd have a go at him just like the christain one's...i think everyone knows the concept of religion already...everyone has made their choice...it's hardly as though you grow up your whole life not knowing what god is or the concept of god and then by chance meeting someone in leicster square who tells about this magical man called god and you being converted...it's just not like that thats why they annoy me...

The Matadore

20-04-2005, 06:15 PM

Posted by Aladdin :

God doesnt exist. Fact.

You are an intolerant bigot. As bad as the worst Christian or Muslim fundementalist. You are also wrong.

Yerascrote

20-04-2005, 06:21 PM

tbh there's just as much proof he does exist than he doesn't...there's no hard evidence for either theory...like come on...if you used a book these days to make a point you'd get laughed at...

Yerascrote

20-04-2005, 06:22 PM

You are also wrong.

oh interesting...you're basically saying there

god does exist:fact

prove it

Aladdin

20-04-2005, 06:24 PM

Posted by Aladdin :

You are an intolerant bigot. As bad as the worst Christian or Muslim fundementalist.
Why Matadore, why?

Could you kindly explain to me why God believers have the right to state that there is a God as a fact, but unbelievers don't have the right to state the opposite?

Have you noticed the comments I was replying too?

Engage brain for once before posting bullshit if you please...

Born Slippy

20-04-2005, 06:26 PM

oh interesting...you're basically saying there

god does exist:fact

prove it

We will prove God exists right after you prove God does not exist.

Yerascrote

20-04-2005, 06:28 PM

We will prove God exists right after you prove God does not exist.

:confused: i've already said that the jury's open on this one...there's no evidence for either and i'm not going to try and prove either one...it just seems that you'se assume he does exist...and if you're saying he does i say prove it...nothing to do with my own beliefs...

Aladdin

20-04-2005, 06:29 PM

oh interesting...you're basically saying there

god does exist:fact

prove it
No only he's saying that, which of course he cannot prove, but he seems to be implying that religious folk have the right to state the there is a God but atheists have not the right to say there isn't one.

And they call us the intolerant ones. :rolleyes:

I'm really sick to death to the tyranny of some believers, whose beliefs must not be questioned under any circumstances (because it would "offend" them :rolleyes: ) but who feel free state those beliefs as fact to the rest of us.

Yerascrote

20-04-2005, 06:34 PM

I'm really sick to death to the tyranny of some believers, whose beliefs must not be questioned under any circumstances (because it would "offend" them :rolleyes: ) but who feel free state those beliefs as fact to the rest of us.

:yes: always has annoyed me and there seems to be a brave few here

example: homosexuality is wrong and immoral...look at passage whatever whatever in book whatever of the bible...see i'm right...all gays should be burned :rolleyes:

klintock

20-04-2005, 06:38 PM

We will prove God exists right after you prove God does not exist.

I will happily prove/disprove "god" but first I need the type of proof we are looking at measuring against. I can do either so pick a proof.

Yerascrote

20-04-2005, 06:40 PM

I will happily prove/disprove "god" but first I need the type of proof we are looking at measuring against. I can do either so pick a proof.

you're just getting into semantics now...i supose you could prove anything if you had a basis for that proof to be proved on

klintock

20-04-2005, 06:52 PM

you're just getting into semantics now...i supose you could prove anything if you had a basis for that proof to be proved on

Well, lets have a basis for proof and go from there. I need to know waht proof you would need so that i can supply it, now don't I?

The Matadore

20-04-2005, 06:56 PM

Why Matadore, why?

Telelogical argument (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Teleological_argument)

Cosmological Argument (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cosmological_argument)

Ontological argument (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ontological_argument)

Disprove those.

I very much doubt you can unless youve got at least a doctorate in Philosophy.

Do you have a doctorate in philosophy?

Yerascrote

20-04-2005, 06:56 PM

Well, lets have a basis for proof and go from there. I need to know waht proof you would need so that i can supply it, now don't I?

could you disprove god on a basis that suggests that there is an eternel force that merely oversees human existence rather than interfere...it's mere stipulation of an afterlife is that every human lives their life to the fullest and hasn't cheated on themselves...i doubt you could cos basically above is my belief system....

Born Slippy

20-04-2005, 09:19 PM

And millions of people will die a needless death through AIDS.
And entire nations will continue to starve due to overpopulation.
And women will continue to have a basic yet fundamental personal choice refused.
And homosexuals will continue to be persecuted.

Africans Hail Conservative Pope (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/africa/4463873.stm)

Good 'ol Africa... :D

klintock

20-04-2005, 10:10 PM

Teleological argument has unprovable premises, therefore is itself unprovable.

Premise 1: X was intelligently designed,

Cosmological argument.

The cosmological argument infers the existence of God from claims about the entire universe.

Basically from Wiki says everything must have a cause and the first cause must be god. In order for there to be a god on the basis of the argument itself that god must have been caused by something else.

Poof, argument falls down and goes bye bye. If there is no need for a cause for god, there is no need for a cause for the universe, so it doesn't follow that there is a god.

Ontological argument is that god can be proved by reason alone and therefore must exist. I can also formulate arguments that god doesn't exist and so on the merits of the argument itself there is either a god from reason or not a god from reason. This means that reason is higher than god and as he's supposed to be above all then he must not exist.

Flashman's Ghost

20-04-2005, 10:20 PM

Disprooving arguments there is a God is not actually proof that God does not exist....

Capacity

20-04-2005, 10:32 PM

All the none-believers are making out like every single believer tries to force 'God does exist' upon them, and are therefore using this as an excuse to say 'God doesn't exist'.

All of the believers are making out the same thing in reverse.

You've got a few people who are STILL trying to question just how Christian some members are by saying SO IZ IT OK IF EYE KILL A MAN WIV SHORT HAIR, which is tired, old, and I'd refer them to my previous post in this thread.

Then, somewhere in the middle you've got that silly wanker still claiming they can prove God doesn't exist. Well guess what, silly wanker; you'll be the first human being ever to do so. You've gone from saying "Prove to me God exists", and upon hearing "Prove to us that he doesn't" you've gone to "Tell me what proof you want". In other words, you can't think of HOW to prove it - BECAUSE IT CAN'T BE PROVED. Maybe if Aladdin tried to explain this you'd listen.

How about I bring it down to your level again and say, in response to "what proof do you want and I'll give it you"; "what proof can you give?" None. You lose. Grow the fuck up.

klintock

20-04-2005, 10:35 PM

Disprooving arguments there is a God is not actually proof that God does not exist....

Absence of proof means untested theory. Untested theories are not facts.

Besides I asked for the proof that the people who posted would be happy refuting the existence of "god" on. I am quite happy to rubbish as many arguments as they can throw cos it's kind of fun.

Yerascrote

20-04-2005, 10:38 PM

Absence of proof means untested theory. Untested theories are not facts.

Besides I asked for the proof that the people who posted would be happy refuting the existence of "god" on. I am quite happy to rubbish as many arguments as they can throw cos it's kind of fun.

do you admit the possibility that god does exist? please don't talk about on what basis, just the possibility of their being a god...

klintock

20-04-2005, 10:49 PM

do you admit the possibility that god does exist? please don't talk about on what basis, just the possibility of their being a god...

Yes of course, I am an agnostic. I would love to be able to think that there was a great big beard in the sky looking out for everyone. I don't have that luxury. I am absolutely sure that I doubt 100%

Show me proof and I will bow down and worship. In the absence of proof I will treat it like any other confidence scam.

How about I bring it down to your level again and say, in response to "what proof do you want and I'll give it you"; "what proof can you give?" None. You lose. Grow the fuck up.

Nice christian abuse you got there. Any proof will do. As I haven't seen a "god" argument yet that I can't smash in bits in seconds I sincerely hope you can cut the mustard.

Yerascrote

20-04-2005, 10:50 PM

Nice christian abuse you got there. Any proof will do. As I haven't seen a "god" argument yet that I can't smash in bits in seconds I sincerely hope you can cut the mustard.

what about mine a few posts back...you didn't reply to it...

Capacity

20-04-2005, 10:56 PM

Nice christian abuse you got there. Any proof will do. As I haven't seen a "god" argument yet that I can't smash in bits in seconds I sincerely hope you can cut the mustard.

My gosh. You are so new.

You've got a few people who are STILL trying to question just how Christian some members are by saying SO IZ IT OK IF EYE KILL A MAN WIV SHORT HAIR, which is tired, old, and I'd refer them to my previous post in this thread.

THAT = YOU.

NOTICE THE BIT WHERE I SAID "I'D REFER THEM TO MY PREVIOUS POST"?

HERE IS THE PREVIOUS POST.

Why doesn't it work that way?

I used to say exactly the same (when I was about 12), I used to run around like a tit telling people that they can't be selective with their beliefs. Every time they just went "hmph 'spose". Guess what one bloke said to me one day? He said 'why not?' So, why not? They're our beliefs, not anyone elses. Nobody else need believe them. Insisting we all believe the same would suggest you're more bothered with how others see you than what you actually believe yourself. And how could I be a hypocrite? I follow a great deal of Christian traditions and beliefs, but if you expect me never to swear at nubs who say PROOOF PLZ THX LOLZ, or love the man who has run their keys along my car, you're living unrealistically... Maybe 10's of thousands of years ago it would have been possible.. Who knows..

Did you see that? Y'know, when I debated with the person with my own beliefs as WELL as those without? It's called not being a fucking child.

If I'd have claimed that I was a perfect follower of Christianity your "Nice Christian abuse you got there" MAY have had some cause. However, find me ONE example of where I claimed to be a perfect follower who never did anything wrong? g0g0g0g0g00g0g0

"Any proof will do"

Any proof you can give, will do. I can play act the ignorant-4-year-old-twat every bit as much as you can.

Senor Miguel

20-04-2005, 10:56 PM

As I haven't seen a "god" argument yet that I can't smash in bits in seconds I sincerely hope you can cut the mustard.

lol, now you're just being arrogant.........in reply to my previous posts, all you could say was 'oh well, deep down you must know god doesn't exist', that's a lame comeback, even by your standards, so just drop it.

klintock

20-04-2005, 10:59 PM

could you disprove god on a basis that suggests that there is an eternel force that merely oversees human existence rather than interfere...it's mere stipulation of an afterlife is that every human lives their life to the fullest and hasn't cheated on themselves...i doubt you could cos basically above is my belief system....

This one?

an eternel force

So far we have found no eternal forces. Not even light and gravity. While the premise is comforting the lack of evidence does again lead to the conclusion that there is no "god". By the same token, the same lack of evidence can also lead to the conclusion that there IS a "god" if he were to operate that way.

It's absolute uncertainty, so at best gets you a 50/50 shot of the big bearded one existing. Still not proof enough either way I am afraid. All you can prove is that we definitely don't know which gets us nowhere.

Yerascrote

20-04-2005, 11:02 PM

So far we have found no eternal forces. Not even light and gravity. While the premise is comforting the lack of evidence does again lead to the conclusion that there is no "god". By the same token, the same lack of evidence can also lead to the conclusion that there IS a "god" if he were to operate that way.

It's absolute uncertainty, so at best gets you a 50/50 shot of the big bearded one existing. Still not proof enough either way I am afraid. All you can prove is that we definitely don't know which gets us nowhere.

time is an eternal force

"god never was, god never will be, god just is"...

klintock

20-04-2005, 11:06 PM

time is an eternal force

How can you be sure of that?

I know I cannot. It's passage doesn't even remain consistent and at some point for me it will cease.

Yerascrote

20-04-2005, 11:09 PM

what was before time then? what will be after time then...

see people have their own concieved ideas of what time is...oh i have to be in work for 9...or this day is lasting ages...time is dependant on emotions and also on man-made clocks that move hands now and again...doesn't mean fuck all...truth is...time is eternal...it's always here...you can't stop or fast forward it...it's here to stay..bit like any idea of god...

klintock

20-04-2005, 11:38 PM

If your perception of time is going fast or slow, then the clock also slows down or speeds up, because it is part of your perception.

you can't stop or fast forward it...

Yes, you can. Hypnosis is one way, drugs can be another.

Yerascrote

20-04-2005, 11:43 PM

Yes, you can. Hypnosis is one way, drugs can be another.

you talking bout shrooms and cid here...they just distort time...in reality...in real time...time is still at the same speed

lets look at a decomposing analogy...now a plastic bag will take something like 250 years (whatever that is) you could take acid for 250 years, stare at the bag and it would feel like 10,000 but it's still 250 years till it decompsoes...you might be able to temporarily fracture time and distort it but it's eternal, non-tanscient, ithink you have to move beyond normal conventions of time and look at it from a juggernaut force that keeps going....

Senor Miguel

20-04-2005, 11:44 PM

If your perception of time is going fast or slow, then the clock also slows down or speeds up, because it is part of your perception.

Yes, you can. Hypnosis is one way, drugs can be another.

weren't you banging on a few threads back how perception of reality doesn't equate to reality, objectively the clock doesn't speed up or slow down..........time is relative but not in the way you suggest......

klintock

21-04-2005, 12:19 AM

you talking bout shrooms and cid here...they just distort time...in reality...in real time...time is still at the same speed

If you were able to say that time existed outside your own experience of it then yes. It doesn't so you can't.

weren't you banging on a few threads back how perception of reality doesn't equate to reality, objectively the clock doesn't speed up or slow down..........time is relative but not in the way you suggest......

There is no objectively. Time is relative in exactly the way I suggest. If you think that time is going slow, then it is and the clock is moving slowly with you because it is subject to your perception, a part of it. Or are you saying that the clock is outside of your perception somehow?

"Banging on" where?

MrG

21-04-2005, 12:32 AM

How can you be sure of that?

I know I cannot. It's passage doesn't even remain consistent and at some point for me it will cease.

you were talking about time, you might die, but time carries on for everyone and everything else left alive

klintock

21-04-2005, 12:45 AM

you were talking about time, you might die, but time carries on for everyone and everything else left alive

Guess we are back to that old stand by - "proof please"

MrG

21-04-2005, 12:48 AM

Guess we are back to that old stand by - "proof please"

well if someone put a bullet through your head right now, unless the universe is just a nights dream in your subconscious mind, then im still going to be here and you wont

but at last you might just have grasped the true meaning of freedom

Aladdin

21-04-2005, 11:20 AM

Er... what exactly does any of those links prove, Matadore?

Absolutely fuck all.

At best, the (distant) possibility that the Universe might have been designed by an intelligent being.

But...

No proof of God.

No proof that if there is a God, he is alive today.

No proof that if he's alive today, he's a God that matches the description of any of the world's religions today. A silicon-based 7-headed gay alien from Alpha Centauri would have as good a claim that his silicon-based, 7-headed homosexual god is the real one as you do. Because he would have exactly the same amount of evidence as you do (i.e. zero) to support the claims that there is a god and he's as described by his religion of choice.

So I'll ask you again: what the flying fuck makes you belive YOU have the right to state as a fact there is a God when there isn't ANY EVIDENCE WHATSOEVER to support that claim, but I don't have the right to say the opposite as a fact?

You, my friend, are the one who is as bad as the worst Christian and Muslim fundamentalists.

Toadborg

21-04-2005, 11:32 AM

Telelogical argument (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Teleological_argument)

Cosmological Argument (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cosmological_argument)

Ontological argument (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ontological_argument)

Disprove those.

I very much doubt you can unless youve got at least a doctorate in Philosophy.

Do you have a doctorate in philosophy?

Have you actually rade the links? They include critiques in them for a start.......

The first one I find flawed as even if you decide there must have been design in humans, who designed the designer? This simply leads to infinite regress and solve nothing........

The second one is the most interesting imo but as it clearly states it is only an argument for the existence of something that can be called God, not a support for a Christian |God or any kind of God with characterisitcs we might associate with it........

The third one is a clever one but I don't think many people will be convinced by the Descartes kind of line. Also this argument is not an argument for a Christian God..........

Blagsta

21-04-2005, 12:30 PM

I doubt that Matadore actually ever reads anything.

Rich Kid

21-04-2005, 04:17 PM

I doubt that Matadore actually ever reads anything.
Its probably the reason he's more sense in his little finger than you have in the whole of your body.

Yerascrote

21-04-2005, 06:15 PM

Its probably the reason he's more sense in his little finger than you have in the whole of your body.

:lol: seriously that made me laugh so much...please get your head out of your hole

klintock

21-04-2005, 06:16 PM

Its probably the reason he's more sense in his little finger than you have in the whole of your body.

Yes, because as we all know reading makes you less aware and more stupid.

:nervous:

Capacity

21-04-2005, 06:33 PM

Then, somewhere in the middle you've got that silly wanker still claiming they can prove God doesn't exist. Well guess what, silly wanker; you'll be the first human being ever to do so.

...

droid42

21-04-2005, 07:50 PM

klintock: You are an idiot. Why don't you prove they don't exist? You can't. Just as he can't prove they do. He can only believe. And you can only choose not to.

I declare that the entire universe was farted from the backside of a huge intergalactic sheep around 35 years ago .. shortly before I was born. This is what my father told me and I believe him. I declare it to be true.

Now, can you prove that this didn't happen? If you can't prove that it didn't happen, does it mean it did?

Ian.

Capacity

21-04-2005, 08:52 PM

Can you read? My threads revolve around making the point that none of you can either disprove or prove that God exists.

klintock

21-04-2005, 08:54 PM

Can you read? My threads revolve around making the point that none of you can either disprove or prove that God exists.

Already disproved it half a dozen times.

What sort proof for his non existence would you like me to provide?

Capacity

21-04-2005, 09:03 PM

Already disproved it half a dozen times.

What sort proof for his non existence would you like me to provide?

What sort proof for his non existance can you provide?

Rich Kid

21-04-2005, 09:06 PM

Faith doesn't require proof or evidence. Faith is.

morrocan roll

21-04-2005, 10:07 PM

Faith doesn't require proof or evidence. Faith is.
there is a passage in the bible which says you should make sure of all things ...this i think was written by luke ...he added ...make sure of all the things we are teaching you ...test these things.
why did he say such things?
cos blind faith is no faith.

klintock

21-04-2005, 10:10 PM

What sort proof for his non existance can you provide?

Well, we've done teleological, cosmological, and ontological. What others have you got?

Faith doesn't require proof or evidence. Faith is.

Then how do you know to have it?

Senor Miguel

21-04-2005, 10:20 PM

Well, we've done teleological, cosmological, and ontological. What others have you got?

how about unequivocal proof?.........hmm, nope didnt think so........god leaves man to his own devices and to make his own choices.......do you really think people would live their lives freely if they could see god over their shoulder watching them, knowing they'd have to answer to him for eternity........the answer is no.

klintock

21-04-2005, 10:25 PM

how about unequivocal proof?.........

Sure, how do you want me to reach it?

Senor Miguel

21-04-2005, 10:35 PM

i really don't know how you could disprove god's existence, leaving no doubt...........unless you were god, and i've said this before, are you god klintock?

klintock

21-04-2005, 10:54 PM

i really don't know how you could disprove god's existence, leaving no doubt...........unless you were god, and i've said this before, are you god klintock?

Nope. I am glad of it too. I wonder what you would hope for if there were such a thing and you were it.

Would your logic mean that if I could prove "God" existed, i would become him?

Just give me a standard of proof and we can get cracking. I mean no disrespect to anyone's faith, btw. I just want my faith, that of agnosticism given equal status.

Flashman's Ghost

21-04-2005, 11:05 PM

Just give me a standard of proof and we can get cracking. I mean no disrespect to anyone's faith, btw. I just want my faith, that of agnosticism given equal status.

Surely if you're an agnostic you can't disprove God
http://www.arts.cuhk.edu.hk/humftp/E-text/Russell/agnostic.htm

The whole point of Agnosticism is that you think its impossible to know whether God exists or not.

If you believe you can disproove God you are an aethist http://www.google.co.uk/search?hl=en&lr=&oi=defmore&q=define:atheism

klintock

21-04-2005, 11:13 PM

The whole point of Agnosticism is that you think its impossible to know whether God exists or not.

Yeah. Weird huh.

But my standard of proof will make no sense to you because of the way that I understand the world and perception is so radically different from yours.

I am an Agnostic for reasons that would take a long time to go through. I am no atheist.

All you have to do is pick a proof.

Flashman's Ghost

21-04-2005, 11:22 PM

Yeah. Weird huh.

Yes, but no weirder than most of what you write.

But my standard of proof will make no sense to you because of the way that I understand the world and perception is so radically different from yours.

You also seem to have a different understanding of the word proof. if it makes no sense to me how can it be a standard of proof?

I am an Agnostic for reasons that would take a long time to go through. I am no atheist.

let me guess. because you have your own meaning of the word agnostic which is different from everyone else's in the UK?

All you have to do is pick a proof.

Green cheese?

Senor Miguel

21-04-2005, 11:33 PM

let me guess. because you have your own meaning of the word agnostic which is different from everyone else's in the UK?

lol, just what i was thinking...........how can you be an agnostic klintock? your whole post is contradictory, you must be living in some fantasy world where words have different meanings than the commonly accepted ones........your posts on the semiotic thread, and now this...........we can't debate if you speak a different language..........define agnosticism for me.

morrocan roll

21-04-2005, 11:44 PM

but he doesn't think with words but with pictures ...and he's obviously picture dyslexic,

klintock

21-04-2005, 11:50 PM

Green cheese?

Things decay, if "god" exists then he creates everything, yet cheese decays and so must be imperfectly created. If it is imperfectly created then there can be no perfect creator behind it, and so, no "god".

On the other hand, we know that nothing actually stays the same shape of form for very long, that "creation" itself is a myth. Forms change but the underlying stays the same and so there can be no creation. As there can be no creation then there can be no creator, so no "god".

One green cheese theory of god's non-existence.

define agnosticism for me.

The problem doesn't lie in the agnosticism, it lies in proof. If you look at my other posts about language and so on it might help.

if it makes no sense to me how can it be a standard of proof?

I didn't say you couldn't understand it, just that it would take a hell of a long time to get it over.

morrocan roll

21-04-2005, 11:55 PM

everything that decays is simply changing form ...it is forever becoming something else.
this to me wreaks of creationism.
out of nothing comes eternity ...
continual renewal.

Senor Miguel

21-04-2005, 11:58 PM

define agnosticism for me, and why you classify yourself as one..........cause you are on a completely different wavelength..........humour me.

morrocan roll

22-04-2005, 12:02 AM

in what way does a cabbage decay?
leave it sat in the ground to do it's own thing ...and with a little help from butterflies and other amazing lifeforms ...will live forever.
it will produce a thousand seeds.
it will mutliply itself forever.
feeding itself and others along the way ...forever.

Flashman's Ghost

22-04-2005, 12:03 AM

I didn't say you couldn't understand it, just that it would take a hell of a long time to get it over.

Yes you did

But my standard of proof will make no sense to you because of the way that I understand the world and perception is so radically different from yours.

I've bolded the bit as you seem to not only have a perception problem with what others write, but what you write as well.

PS your green cheese theory is bollocks as well

klintock

22-04-2005, 12:08 AM

define agnosticism for me

A belief that you do not know about the existence of god.

Why don't I know whether he is there or not?

Okay, you asked for it.

Imagine for a moment that you had a computer that simulated the universe perfectly. It would be able to predict the future 100% because it knew everything, from the wobble of an atom to the heart of a star.

So, the universe is on a fixed path.

I, however do not have this computer and so can only dimly perceive the future from guesses made from past events. I am totally uncertain what will happen next.

That something will happen next is certain (even if it's nothing). That that thing is fixed, already decided, is also certain. I am also 100% certain that I do not know what will happen next. Between these two extremes is where all events lay.

The chance between any event, no matter how unlikely happening and it not occurring is always even. Always. (50%, 2 to 1 or howver you want to call it.)

Hence the agnosticism.

klintock

22-04-2005, 12:12 AM

I am an Agnostic for reasons that would take a long time to go through.

I've bolded the bit as you seem to not only have a perception problem with what others write, but what you write as well.

Try reading the whole thing eh.

PS your green cheese theory is bollocks as well

As I've just waded through several pages explaining why I thought something was "bollocks" i guess it's your turn.

To put it another way, how about dismantling what I wrote.

Flashman's Ghost

22-04-2005, 12:13 AM

The chance between any event, no matter how unlikely happening and it not occurring is always even. Always. (50%, 2 to 1 or howver you want to call it.)

Rubbish. Given that you seem to have an extremely dodgy view of statistics you're not a professional economist by any chance?

morrocan roll

22-04-2005, 12:18 AM

I am totally uncertain what will happen next.

I do not know what will happen next. Between these two extremes is where all That something will happen next is certain (even if it's nothing). That that thing is fixed, already decided, is also certain.
.
if you believe this 100% then your brain is firing on less cylinders than most other peoples.
your view and understanding of our reality seems very limiting.

Flashman's Ghost

22-04-2005, 12:19 AM

Try reading the whole thing eh.

I did read the whole thing. Could you explain to me what bit of

But my standard of proof will make no sense to you because of the way that I understand the world and perception is so radically different from yours.

translates as

just that it would take a hell of a long time to get it over.

As I've just waded through several pages explaining why I thought something was "bollocks" i guess it's your turn.

To put it another way, how about dismantling what I wrote.

God has already created imperfection when he created man (which is why he sent his son to die for our sins) why would he not create imperfection with other things as well.

Your arguments don't make sense to anyone (apart from Seeker who's as lunatic as you)- and given the way you bob and weave I suspect they don;t actually make sense to you either.

morrocan roll

22-04-2005, 12:21 AM

[QUOTE=klintock]Try reading QUOTE]

i just read your sig!
the first word just had to be therapy! :crazyeyes

klintock

22-04-2005, 01:17 AM

Oh well, have the missile -

How would you know there was not a god?

Answer honestly without changing the subject please.

That question again -

How would you know there was not a god?

morrocan roll

22-04-2005, 01:32 AM

How would you know there was not a god?
people HAVE to make decisions from moment to moment in what to believe and accept from their perceptions of their reality.
i am not a religous man but am interested in religion.
i am fascinated at the unfolding story ...
as 19th century scientific knowledge gets blown away by twenty first century knowledge ...it appears ever more likely that creation might just be the truth.
when drwin did his thinking it was thinking that knew nothing whatsoever of genetic digital codings and the many complexities of a single human cell.

morrocan roll

22-04-2005, 01:48 AM

How would you know there was not a god?you can't expect to know the answers until you have a certain amount of knowledge about something.
knowledge is an unfolding and growing thing.
a lot of peoples thinking seems to get cut short in my opinion by thinking in a manner that we already know all the right questions to ask and where to look.
our history proves that thinking people do in fact behave in this manner.
as recently as the 1920's scientists were declaring that the universe had now been seen and there wasn't much more matter out there ...oh how fucking wrong they were! they based this of course on what there very own eyes and knowledge were telling them.

seeker

22-04-2005, 10:35 AM

I am totally uncertain what will happen next.

That something will happen next is certain (even if it's nothing). That that thing is fixed, already decided, is also certain.
if you believe this 100% then your brain is firing on less cylinders than most other peoples.
your view and understanding of our reality seems very limiting.

Mmmm,I believe.........BUT,

Your arguments don't make sense to anyone (apart from Seeker who's as lunatic as you)

Could be time for :angel: The Church of the Agnostic Lunatics :angel: ."Build it and they will come"

seeker

morrocan roll

22-04-2005, 10:07 PM

klintok ...have you dropped this one?
i'd like to hear what you think about our differing views on decay.
i'd like to hear what you think about people thinking in the static moment ...and knowledge actualy unfolding ...therefore changing what we know and believe.

klintock

22-04-2005, 10:21 PM

I'm here Roll :)

Like your post about the difference between crime and thinking about crime.

a lot of peoples thinking seems to get cut short in my opinion by thinking in a manner that we already know all the right questions to ask and where to look.

I agree with this 100%

as recently as the 1920's scientists were declaring that the universe had now been seen and there wasn't much more matter out there ...oh how fucking wrong they were!

Aye true enough, it's the thought that "that's all there is" that really worries me about "god" to be honest. It's an easy answer a lot of the time and I don't like short cuts to thinking.

they based this of course on what there very own eyes and knowledge were telling them.

Which is what I do, and I am aware that I am just as likely to be wrong as I am to be right. I still think putting basic ideas through the pressure cooker is a good thing. (Yes, even that one)

i am not a religous man but am interested in religion.

I love this phrase.

when drwin did his thinking it was thinking that knew nothing whatsoever of genetic digital codings and the many complexities of a single human cell.

And he built up his theory and left it on a shelf for two decades while he had a "normal" life before publishing it. Now THATS intelligence. Did you now that when his paper was being read to the world for the first time he was with his wife, having buried his son the same day? He knew what priorities a man should have. Genuinely great guy.

I digress. I agree with you on almost everything Roll. :)

CraigWatson

24-04-2005, 10:52 PM

Rich Kid

24-04-2005, 11:05 PM

I just cant understand how people can "ABSOLUTELY believe in something based wholly on faith". Do you have so little "faith" in yourself that you need someone else to tell you how you should live your life?
Craig
Faith in God the Almighty is what Mankind needs if this world in which we live is to be redeemed together with the souls of all of Mankind.
Faith is outside of science, it is the true path to salvation.