Id cards

[xmizzcattyx]

violation of human rights or a good idea?

[budda]

A stupidly expensive waste of time.

People can forge passports now they will be able to fake any ID card that is brought in.

I fail to see how this will prevent any terrorist attacks or any crime at all except perhaps credit card fraud.

[seeker]

violation of human rights or a good idea?


A good idea ONLY IF you need to ask yourself "Who the fuck am I ?" and can`t answer. Looks like you know the answer (http://www.livejournal.com/userinfo.bml?user=xmizzcattyx) ;)


seeker

[klintock]

violation of human rights or a good idea?

Probably both. The real aim of them is the removal of the "black" market.

It depends who you are in relation to the government and the banks. I can see the removal of paper money and coins from the system not too long after their introduction.

I personally will be refusing to get one, just on general principles.

[Rich Kid]

Better than ID cards, I'd like to see a chip inserted into everyone so we could easily monitor where are, what they do, and they are who they say they are.
It could help reduce crime, reduce the risk of terrorism, and help eliminate benefit fraud.

[klintock]

Better than ID cards, I'd like to see a chip inserted into everyone so we could easily monitor where are, what they do, and they are who they say they are.

By "we" who do you mean?

Perhaps it could also give us electric shocks when we swear. >Goddamn it<

At least you don't think it's already happened. I kind of put you in the David Icke mold.

[Senor Miguel]

Better than ID cards, I'd like to see a chip inserted into everyone so we could easily monitor where are, what they do, and they are who they say they are.
It could help reduce crime, reduce the risk of terrorism, and help eliminate benefit fraud.

lol, how about on the forehead or right hand, with a handy 666 inscription? you call yourself a christian but i don't think you've actually read the bible mate.......

[Rich Kid]

lol, how about on the forehead or right head, with a handy 666 inscription? you call yourself a christian but i don't think you've actually read the bible mate.......
Don't exaggerate apollo_69 and why bring the bible into this?

[budda]

Don't exaggerate apollo_69 and why bring the bible into this?

The famous bit of Revelations? Mark of the devil? Are these ringing any bells with you?

[Senor Miguel]

Don't exaggerate apollo_69 and why bring the bible into this?

:shocking: you really are a moron.

[budda]

You might want to have a look at one of these websites Rich Kid;

http://www.google.co.uk/search?hl=en&q=mark+of+the+devil+666+revelations&meta=cr%3DcountryUK%7CcountryGB

[Tequila]

I would have no problem with a low-tech, strictly optional, limited-in-scope ID card for access to certain public services. But this is not what is being offered.

To anyone who still thinks they are a good idea: I suggest you visit this (http://www.no2id.net) website.

They will be expensive, invasive, excessively authoritarian and interfering and will be a waste of time. It will pool many different schemes into one card: a recipe for disaster. Do you want to be tracked for everything you do and everything you buy and everyone you see for the rest of your life by this Government - or a less honest (ha ha) Government?

This cards will benefit no-one except a Government who wish to monitor the private lives of its citizens.

We are sliding very rapidly into a surveillance state.

[Rich Kid]

:shocking: you really are a moron.

What a Christian comment. Isn't Pride a sin apollo_69?

[Jim V]

The biblical end of the world is not coming, if you think it is, seek help now.

[Ibex]

Better than ID cards, I'd like to see a chip inserted into everyone so we could easily monitor where are, what they do, and they are who they say they are.

Please tell me you're taking the piss. :eek:


I agree with completely with tequila's comments. ID cards are an authoritarian waste of time - the pet project of a frighteningly controlling government. Thankfully, it looks as if the scheme's being quietly abandoned, which'll save us the trouble of sending it the same way as the Poll Tax...

[Senor Miguel]

What a Christian comment. Isn't Pride a sin apollo_69?

so is lying, i'm just telling the truth........i'm not proud of the fact i've read the bible and you haven't, what are you on about?

and regardless of whether the world is or isn't about to end, there are some scary similarities between i.d. chips and the mark of the beast..........one thing is for sure, 1984 here we come.......

[Tequila]

Please tell me you're taking the piss. :eek:


I agree with completely with tequila's comments. ID cards are an authoritarian waste of time - the pet project of a frighteningly controlling government. Thankfully, it looks as if the scheme's being quietly abandoned, which'll save us the trouble of sending it the same way as the Poll Tax...

Don't bet on it: it's in 'New' Labour's manifesto and Government puppets - sorry, a Metropolitan Police Commissioner - has spoken out in favour. The best hope we realistically have is if the public come out massively against or Labour's Commons majority is significantly reduced.

[Ibex]

Don't bet on it: it's in 'New' Labour's manifesto and Government puppets - sorry, a Metropolitan Police Commissioner - has spoken out in favour. The best hope we realistically have is if the public come out massively against or Labour's Commons majority is significantly reduced.

Oh bugger. I thought that they were going to drop the idea if they didn't manage to force it through in the last few weeks of the last Parliament. :( That was rather naive of me, underestimating the government's anti-democratic bent.

It didn't come as much of a surprise to hear a Metropolitan Police Commissioner come out in favour of the scheme. The police love every idea that lets them keep a close eye on people. Their commitment to democracy and civil liberties is about as strong as the government's.

I think a lot of people - not a majority, but a large minority - are very uneasy about ID cards. There was a swing in favour of them a while ago, partly IMO because of the Soham murder case, but I think people now realise that ID cards are little help against a random psycho like Huntley, and that they don't do much to combat terrorism or organised crime. Most of the major acts of terrorism over the last few years (911 excepted) have taken place in countries with ID cards (Spain) and, in many cases, far less democratic governments than this. Besides, although some people think ID cards are a good idea in theory, I doubt many people will be happy about forking out 80 quid for them. I'd love to see them go the same way as the Poll Tax - brought down, along with the government, in a wave of protests. I can dream, I suppose...

[budda]

I just dont trust a government to operate a multi-billion pound computer system without it going WAY over budget and not doing what its supposed to.

[Rich Kid]

.........one thing is for sure, 1984 here we come.......
You're a bit slow on the uptake my dear friend, much of Orwells vision has arrived.
I'm not afraid of monitoring people, if they're going about their lawful daily business wheres the problem?
We need to tackle yobs, criminals, drug dealers, and terrorists, find them and deal appropriately with them and this could be a great help.
We should encourage people to take a chip by offering them attractive tax breaks and make it mandatory for all children born after a specified date to have one inserted. Soon those without chips will be viewed suspiciously by the majority until eventually most of them are forced to change their minds and have a chip inserted. All people sent to prison should, as part of their sentence, be forced to have a chip inserted.

[Blagsta]

I'm not afraid of monitoring people, if they're going about their lawful daily business wheres the problem?

A closer reading of history might give you an inkling.

[budda]

I'm not afraid of monitoring people, if they're going about their lawful daily business wheres the problem?.

So you'd be happy for every person on your local police force to watch constant video of you, your every move, go through your rubbish to listen to every word you said on the phone etc?

[klintock]

WoW. How many laws do you break a day Rk?

[Rich Kid]

So you'd be happy for every person on your local police force to watch constant video of you, your every move, go through your rubbish to listen to every word you said on the phone etc?
You missed the point bonga, its happening already. If you go out you'll be caught on CCTV many many times. If you drive your car, cameras have now got registration number recognition. You are being monitored when you shop, have a drink in a pub or restaurant, go to the gym, etc etc.
Big Brother is here. I don't mind because I'm not breaking any laws, I'm not part of the scum that infects our society, its them we need to mindful of.

[budda]

You missed the point bonga, its happening already. If you go out you'll be caught on CCTV many many times. If you drive your car, cameras have now got registration number recognition. You are being monitored when you shop, have a drink in a pub or restaurant, go to the gym, etc etc.
Big Brother is here. I don't mind because I'm not breaking any laws, I'm not part of the scum that infects our society, its them we need to mindful of.

Thats not actually an answer to my question.

[Rich Kid]

Thats not actually an answer to my question.
I said you're being monitored, how much more clearly can I say that?

[Man Of Kent]

I said you're being monitored, how much more clearly can I say that?

But the question was "are you happy", not whether it happens.

Just because CCTV invades so many places doesn't mean that it is a solution to anything.

[xmizzcattyx]

can i just ask? is he joking? at first i thought he was but now i'm not so sure

[MrG]

I just dont trust a government to operate a multi-billion pound computer system without it going WAY over budget and not doing what its supposed to.

thats teh IT sectore in general, not just a specific govt thing

[Rich Kid]

But the question was "are you happy", not whether it happens.
I'm very happy with it. I see it in a positive light, it'll catch the scum who infect society, that I see as a big plus.

Just because CCTV invades so many places doesn't mean that it is a solution to anything.
But its not just CCTV. CCTV is often used in conjunction with radio's to monitor people without them realising it. You can scan for phone messages, you can install mini-cameras with a lenses not much bigger than a pin head, the technology out there is breath-taking.

[Namaste]

ID cards are an authoritarian waste of time - the pet project of a frighteningly controlling government.
Yeah... We already have the Sun and the Mail to scare us, we already have that stupid new terrorist law that violates the Human Rights Act... Why do we need to be scared in to behaving ourselves?

It's a shame that the government feels so unsucessful that it has to go to these measures. The people in power are smoke screening us with terrorism threats to cover up corrupt company dealings, war crimes and class inequality (a rift that could end up growing again).

[Man Of Kent]

I'm very happy with it. I see it in a positive light, it'll catch the scum who infect society, that I see as a big plus.

But it's reactive. Sure the criminal may get caught, but the crime has already been comitted. Considering the amount of money invested in these schemes, wouldn't it be better to invest in crime prevention?

But its not just CCTV. CCTV is often used in conjunction with radio's to monitor people without them realising it. You can scan for phone messages, you can install mini-cameras with a lenses not much bigger than a pin head, the technology out there is breath-taking.

..and that is something you should be scared of, not revel in.

The fact that any Govt may have the power to watch over you so closely goes against the basic concepts of freedom. My Govt should not feel it necessary to watch me, as I go about lawful business and I should have the right to go about my daily life without being under suspicion.

And I still haven't heard any explanation as to how ID cards will prevent terrorist attacks or crime.

[Blagsta]

I'm not part of the scum that infects our society

Hang on, I thought you said you were a tory? :confused:

[Mist]

I don't see any problem with ID cards. I also don't think that they will particularly solve any crime, but if I can just have one card instead of carrying around a driving licence, passport, whatever else, then I'm all for it.

[Rich Kid]

The fact that any Govt may have the power to watch over you so closely goes against the basic concepts of freedom.
Whats freedom? Have you ever had freedom? We've got a war to fight, its to the death, and we must win, so in my view its gloves off and anything goes to defeat the threat.
My Govt should not feel it necessary to watch me, as I go about lawful business and I should have the right to go about my daily life without being under suspicion.
Why? What have you got to hide?

[Blagsta]

What war's that? :confused:

[Tequila]

Why? What have you got to hide?

What gives the Government the right to spy on people's private lives?

Those who would give up Essential Liberty to purchase a little Temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety.
Benjamin Franklin

[freethepeeps]

Whats freedom? Have you ever had freedom? We've got a war to fight, its to the death, and we must win, so in my view its gloves off and anything goes to defeat the threat.

Why? What have you got to hide?

So, you're not really in favour of a small state at all?


:nervous:

[Rich Kid]

So, you're not really in favour of a small state at all?
:nervous:
Small State, Big Surveillance - nothing wrong in that, it offers protection to the honest hard-working citizen and fear to the infectious scum.

[klintock]

Small State, Big Surveillance - nothing wrong in that, it offers protection to the honest hard-working citizen and fear to the infectious scum.

How?

[freethepeeps]

Small State, Big Surveillance - nothing wrong in that, it offers protection to the honest hard-working citizen and fear to the infectious scum.

Hmmmmm............. Well, fortunately for us, there are peers who can see the dangers of going down the road of BIG SURVEILLANCE ...........

Your line seems inconsistent - if you trust the state to co-ordinate that amount of information, then they must be up to the job of running schools and hospitals.

In fact Rich Kid, you are incapable of consistency.

Why is that?

[Man Of Kent]

We've got a war to fight

But it's not against me, is it?

Why? What have you got to hide?

I have nothing to hide, so why is the Govt interested in what I do, why do they need a biometric scan and my details on a database..?

[klintock]

But it's not against me, is it?

If only. The "government" aren't that stupid. They know that the ID card won't do anything they claim it will. Yet they continue with it regardless.

It seems to me that the purpose of the card is to spy on the population. It must be because that's the only thing it will actiually be any good at.

I have nothing to hide, so why is the Govt interested in what I do, why do they need a biometric scan and my details on a database..?

Because theres no way to rule innocent men?

[Tequila]

If only. The "government" aren't that stupid. They know that the ID card won't do anything they claim it will. Yet they continue with it regardless.

It seems to me that the purpose of the card is to spy on the population. It must be because that's the only thing it will actiually be any good at.

Indeed. There's no real benefit to the citizen (unless they like the idea of being tagged, numbered, treated like a piece of meat, stripped of personal privacy and being ripped off into the bargain).

[Blagsta]

Small State, Big Surveillance - nothing wrong in that, it offers protection to the honest hard-working citizen and fear to the infectious scum.

Infectious scum? Maybe you need to clean your bath more often

http://www.binaresik.com/images/che-cif.jpg

[Rich Kid]

But it's not against me, is it?
Oh how naive can you be? I feel pity for you in your ignorance.

[Rich Kid]

Your line seems inconsistent - if you trust the state to co-ordinate that amount of information, then they must be up to the job of running schools and hospitals.
Not necessarily. The Army and Police function well despite tight resources, meanwhile Labour throw money at the NHS hoping it will solve the problems - we all know it won't.

In fact Rich Kid, you are incapable of consistency.
Why is that?
Since when has the world and what happens in it been consistent? We're in a constant state of chaos and need to be pragmatic and flexible in our responses. In contrast you seem weighed down by dogma, slow reactions, and an inability to recognise fast changing situations, both of a positive or negative nature.

[budda]

I'm very happy with it. I see it in a positive light, it'll catch the scum who infect society, that I see as a big plus.

So in answer to my question you would be happy for all the members of a police force to have access to footage of your every move, hearing every word you ever said, perhaps taking a few urine samples from you, maybe a bit of blood.

And, taking another point you said this 'war' we are in is to the death, the death of whom exactly, who are we fighting again?

[Rich Kid]

So in answer to my question you would be happy for all the members of a police force to have access to footage of your every move, hearing every word you ever said, perhaps taking a few urine samples from you, maybe a bit of blood.
Yes most definitely. In fact I think everyone should provide a DNA sample so that this can be held on central Police & Government records. It would help detect fraud and other serious crimes.

And, taking another point you said this 'war' we are in is to the death, the death of whom exactly, who are we fighting again?
Thw war against international terrorism that is out to destroy Western values and democratic societies, and domestically, the criminal underclass who infect our society with their activities.

[Tequila]

Thw war against international terrorism that is out to destroy Western values and democratic societies

In that case, the politicians are doing the terrorists' work for them then - CCA, PTA, etc.

[Flashman's Ghost]

Thw war against international terrorism that is out to destroy Western values and democratic societies,

Whilst your probably correct taking away all our civil liberties achieves the same aim. The road to hell is paved with good intentions.

[budda]

Yes most definitely. In fact I think everyone should provide a DNA sample so that this can be held on central Police & Government records. It would help detect fraud and other serious crimes.

Luckily most normal people dont trust the government enough for efforts like this.

And I ask again who we are at 'war' with International Terrorists is a nice term, but who are they and where are they? And more to the point why do they suddenly hate us so much?

[Rich Kid]

Luckily most normal people dont trust the government enough for efforts like this.
Yet.

And I ask again who we are at 'war' with International Terrorists is a nice term, but who are they and where are they? And more to the point why do they suddenly hate us so much?
If you're that ignorant then I'm not going to be the one to awaken you from your slumbers. Dream on believing there are no threats, no terrorists, no-one out who want to destroy us and our values. There is no "suddenly" about it, if you had yourv eyes and ears open you'd have kept up to speed on this one.
Goodnight, sweet dreams bonga.

[klintock]

If you're that ignorant then I'm not going to be the one to awaken you from your slumbers. Dream on believing there are no threats, no terrorists, no-one out who want to destroy us and our values. There is no "suddenly" about it, if you had yourv eyes and ears open you'd have kept up to speed on this one.

Proof of terrorists causing or able to cause any permanent damage in the Uk please.

"Our values" or "your" values?

[Ibex]

If you're that ignorant then I'm not going to be the one to awaken you from your slumbers. Dream on believing there are no threats, no terrorists, no-one out who want to destroy us and our values. There is no "suddenly" about it, if you had yourv eyes and ears open you'd have kept up to speed on this one.

Such threats as there are pose little long-term danger. Meanwhile, one of the 'values' I prize is freedom from being spied on by government: it seems that that particular 'British value' is one you're more than happy to see disposed of.

Tolerance, free speech, freedom of movement and freedom from surveillance don't matter to you. Basically, you just want to keep the 'values' that you agree with, don't you?

[budda]

If you're that ignorant then I'm not going to be the one to awaken you from your slumbers. Dream on believing there are no threats, no terrorists, no-one out who want to destroy us and our values. There is no "suddenly" about it, if you had yourv eyes and ears open you'd have kept up to speed on this one.

Did I say there was no terrorists? Strange, I dont think I did.

What I am suggesting, and many others are too is that we should look at this 'war on terror' objectively and find out what threat we are actually under and how to deal with it.

And bringing in a rash of measures that curtail freedoms will NOT help preserve 'british' values.

[Rich Kid]

Why did John Reid claim on News 24 that Michael Howard had "voted against" ID cards when in fact he hadn't?

LIES, LIES, LIES.

[klintock]

Well, while we are being irrelevant -

Why, Dr Zhivago! A melon! And so purple too! I must find a shoebox for my salad turkey and his friend Lucille Ball.

Get a grip RK.

[Rich Kid]

get a grip RK.
The topic is about ID cards.

[klintock]

The topic is about ID cards.

And not about alleged lies on news 24.

Get a grip RK.

[Rich Kid]

And not about alleged lies on news 24.

Get a grip RK.
But John Reid was talking about ID cards. Geddit?

[klintock]

Why did John Reid claim on News 24 that Michael Howard had "voted against" ID cards when in fact he hadn't?

Read it closely - it's a different topic. Who voted what when and where is a different topic than what they voted for. Whether they are lying is a differet topic again.

Get a grip, RK.

I can recommend some thinking skills books if you are in need of help.

[Man Of Kent]

Oh how naive can you be? I feel pity for you in your ignorance.

Me naive? please explain how my having an ID card will prevent a terrorist attack.

For the record there has been no attack on this country (mainland) for about ten years now. Without ID Cards. There was an attack on Spain, where ID cards exist.

Thw war against international terrorism that is out to destroy Western values

What western values are you talking about?

Does it include the presumption of innocence?