Labours Ethical Foreign Policy

[Rich Kid]

Is the Iraq war part of Labours Ethical Foreign policy? I'm confused! :)

[Mad Mac]

Is the Iraq war part of Labours Ethical Foreign policy? I'm confused! :)
don't talk like a twat!

[seeker]

don't talk like a twat!

Why is he talking "like a twat"? It`s the first I`ve seen RK ask an interesting question :thumb:

I`m surprised no-one has asked Fuhrer Blair.......or have they?


seeker

[Man Of Kent]

Is the Iraq war part of Labours Ethical Foreign policy? I'm confused! :)

Well, you beloved Tory party supported the war, so it couldn't have been all bad?

[sticktofacts]

Very weak retort, told that a man like sadam hussein sitting on the oil wealth that iraq has, had weapons they suggested requires action.
When told flaky intel now withdrawn is gospel truth and meant that chemical and biological warheads could be fired upon british interests it kinda seemed stupid to leave the situation as is.
Turned out the ethical policy setup by president blair goes out the window when bush says jump. Bush did aleast say he wanted regime change, badly conceived maybe, but atleast he didnt lie.

[Ibex]

The 'ethical foreign policy' fell to pieces in 1998, when they sold Hawk jets to Indonesian dictator Suharto. The phrase disappeared suspiciously quickly after that...

[Rich Kid]

The 'ethical foreign policy' fell to pieces in 1998, when they sold Hawk jets to Indonesian dictator Suharto. The phrase disappeared suspiciously quickly after that...
Should it not be resurrected? I mean surely its good to have an ethical foreign policy? I know it makes life difficult for governments but isn't it about time some morals and ethics were injected into government polices - and, just for you cynics out there, I'm not trying to make a party political thing out of this!

[Ibex]

IMO an 'ethical foreign policy' is a contradiction in terms. Foreign policy is about projecting power, which sits uneasily with most conceptions of ethics or morals.

[seeker]

IMO an 'ethical foreign policy' is a contradiction in terms. Foreign policy is about projecting power, which sits uneasily with most conceptions of ethics or morals.


I assume you are basing your opinion on the concept of "countries" ? Would you also reduce it to fundamentals,and apply it to individuals?



seeker

[Rich Kid]

IMO an 'ethical foreign policy' is a contradiction in terms. Foreign policy is about projecting power, which sits uneasily with most conceptions of ethics or morals.
So are you saying there can never be an ethical foreign poicy as such?

[Ibex]

I assume you are basing your opinion on the concept of "countries" ? Would you also reduce it to fundamentals,and apply it to individuals?

I'm not basing it on the concept of anything: foreign policy is generally taken to mean the way in which one country manages its interaction with others. In that, the projection of power/promotion of one's own interests is of primary importance.

No, I wouldn't reduce it to an individual level. I don't have a clearly thought out policy on how to deal with friends in the pub, or what to say when I ring my mum. Talking about an individual's 'foreign policy' - well, except in the case of a national leader - sounds absurd, I think.

[Ibex]

So are you saying there can never be an ethical foreign poicy as such?

Ethics will always come a poor second to promoting one's own interests. Which is why Blair sold those Hawks to Suharto - not because he wanted to, especially, but by doing so he provided work for BAe, which was strugglign at the time. Ethics took second place to protecting British jobs.

So forgive my cynicism, but no I don't think there can ever be a really ethical foreign policy.

[Rich Kid]

So forgive my cynicism, but no I don't think there can ever be a really ethical foreign policy.
I agree with you, but why then did Labour promote such a concept?

[Ibex]

I agree with you, but why then did Labour promote such a concept?

It was never a 'concept' as such IMO: it was just a soundbite that was calculated to appear nice and fluffy and appealing to all the wiberals out there. :D

International politics = naked power play. Everything else comes second. Whenever a politician starts banging on about moral responsibilities and the rest, assume he's lying or he's George Bush. Or both.

[Flashman's Ghost]

I always thought an ethical foreign policy is when you send young soldiers off to die for the greater good of the UN, rather than their country...

[budda]

I always thought an ethical foreign policy is when you send young soldiers off to die for the greater good of the UN, rather than their country...

That shows a high level of faith in the UN.

[Aladdin]

Do you have a meeting in Central Office every morning morning to decide what issue are you going to bore us with, "Rich Kid"?

[Rich Kid]

Do you have a meeting in Central Office every morning morning to decide what issue are you going to bore us with, "Rich Kid"?
As I've said before I'm not a member of any political party and in many cases I see the Tories as hardly better than the New Tories, sorry New Labour.
I'm simply putting forward my views on issues but obviously as the government of the day Labour must stand up and be counted for their abysmal performance over the past 8 years.

Yes they will definitely win a third time, probably by some huge landslide, but nevertheless their deficiencies are there for all to see despite all the spin.

Returning to the ethical foreign policy topic

http://www.guardian.co.uk/zimbabwe/article/0,2763,191642,00.html

[seeker]

Foreign policy is about projecting power, which sits uneasily with most conceptions of ethics or morals.

I'm not basing it on the concept of anything: foreign policy is generally taken to mean the way in which one country manages its interaction with others. In that, the projection of power/promotion of one's own interests is of primary importance.

No, I wouldn't reduce it to an individual level. I don't have a clearly thought out policy on how to deal with friends in the pub, or what to say when I ring my mum.Talking about an individual's 'foreign policy' - well, except in the case of a national leader - sounds absurd, I think.

So are you saying a "foreign policy" is unethical and immoral because it is about projecting power.

Without wishing to invade your privacy how do you "deal with friends in the pub" and "what do you say to your mum on the phone"?Did you use those examples to make the point that you don`t "project power" over them?(I`m second guessing here :chin: )


seeker

[Ibex]

So are you saying a "foreign policy" is unethical and immoral because it is about projecting power.

No, but the fact it's about projecting power or protecting one's own interests militates against a foreign policy ever being truly ethical, because when it cmes to a conflict between ethics and national interest, the latter will always win out. I used the example of BAe systems and the hawk jet they sold to Indonesia. If Blair (or IIRC Robin Cook, who was foreign secretary at the time) had decided that it was ethically more important not to sell fighter jets to a dictator, the trade-off for that would have been a lost contract and, potentially, job losses at British firms. Ethics were never going to be allowed to win out over creating employment, were they?

Without wishing to invade your privacy how do you "deal with friends in the pub" and "what do you say to your mum on the phone"?Did you use those examples to make the point that you don`t "project power" over them?(I`m second guessing here :chin: )

Yes, that was what I was trying to get across. Personal relationships are not about projecting power, and there isn't the same web of vested interests and political necessities to guide your actions as there is with foreign policy - or politics of any sort, really. That's why you can't meaningfully compare the two.

[seeker]

Yes, that was what I was trying to get across. Personal relationships are not about projecting power, and there isn't the same web of vested interests and political necessities to guide your actions as there is with foreign policy - or politics of any sort, really. That's why you can't meaningfully compare the two.


You appear to be saying that politicians essentially lack ethics because they abnegate personal responsibility as a direct consequence of being "a politician".Is my reading of this correct?


seeker

[Ibex]

You appear to be saying that politicians essentially lack ethics because they abnegate personal responsibility as a direct consequence of being "a politician".Is my reading of this correct?

Nearly. No matter how 'ethical' an individual politician may be, they'll never be able to act entirly according to their own conscience, because they have to take into account a whole load of other considerations - many of which may be highly unethical.