the last time scaremongering and scapegoating took place in europe...

[wheresmyplacebo]

this happened

http://www.bbc.co.uk/history/war/genocide/


thats it as the past serves the best warnings for the future

[Rich Kid]

thats it as the past serves the best warnings for the future
Now that is a big leap!
The horrors of the Nazi's to today - what are you saying? Please explain.

[Aladdin]

And before anyone says it's an exaggeration or an unfair comparision, this is exactly what is happening.

Let Ken Livingstone explain further:

To the Daily Mail group I say that no-one in Britain is less qualified than they to complain about anti-semitism. Their papers were not, as some have reported, guilty of “a brief flirtation” with Adolf Hitler in the l930s. In truth these papers were the leading advocates of anti-semitism in Britain for half a century.

Beginning a hundred years ago with their campaign to stop Jewish refugees fleeing to Britain from Russia they carried on right the way through the rise of Hitler and even after the start of World War II still felt free to peddle the lie that Germany’s Jews had brought the holocaust upon themselves. I have set out in detail the record of the Daily Mail group in my formal response to the London Assembly.

Whilst it is true the Mail group no longer smears Jews as bringing crime and disease to the UK it is only because they have moved on. After a decade of pandering to racism against our citizens of Black and Irish origin they have moved on and now describe asylum seekers and Muslims in similar terms. For the Mail group the victims may change but the intolerance, hatred and fear pervade every issue of the papers.

Truer words have never been spoken.

[budda]

It is very easy to see Nazi Germany as a one off, it is not, that pattern of isolation, scapegoating and finally horrid crimes against a group/religion/race have happened often.

It is in human nature for us to want to blame someone else for our problems, to think 'the other' is lower than us, less deserving than us.

[Flashman's Ghost]

Surely it would be best to use a more recent example of scaremongering in Europe...

What about http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/vote_2005/frontpage/4435049.stm

Or as Goebbels said 'If you tell the same lie often enough people will believe it'

[Aladdin]

That is rather irrelevant is it not?

[The_Grapes_of_Sloth]

You need an an economic depression too...and possibly unfair reperations from a previous war to make you feel a bit hard done by.

Oswald Moseley's movement was quite large (about 22,000 at its peak I think) but hardly representative of the mood of a country.

Call me naive if you like, but I don't think the British (particularly the middle-classes) have it in them to commit genocide. Even the "anglo-saxon" amongst us know they're a mongrel race with genes from all over the shop. People might grumble about this and that but most people I know wouldn't dream of sending an entire race of people out of the country let alone start exterminating them.

[Flashman's Ghost]

That is rather irrelevant is it not?

Not really. Its about the dumbing down of politics and the suggestions (not ever put quite into words, but implied) that if you vote Tory or want some sort of controlled immigration that you would also support mass genocide.

Now, I suspect that if challenged the impliers would back down and admit that they are exxagerating for effect. However, what they are doing is demonising those who have a perfectly legitimate viewpoint, albeit one they disagree with.

It come into the comments that the Tories, UKIP and BNP are all the same (and are all equivalent to the Nazis) when they are not remotely equivalent.

Though, p'haps I'm being paranoid...

[budda]

People might grumble about this and that but most people I know wouldn't dream of sending an entire race of people out of the country let alone start exterminating them.

I certainly hope not, but this countries people are allowing internment without trial at least partly because the people affected at the moment look and act differently.

[Teh_Gerbil]

People will always look for a convenient scapegoat rather than admit the truth about any situation. The best people are always people who are foreign or disagree with those in power. After all, they are obviously evil due to their foreginess and|or their failing to agree with the rulers, who are true and patriotic.

It will happen again due to ignorance and the easy answer, which is that 'I am not wrong, someone else is'.

Excuse me, my keyboard isn't working properly at hte minute, I msut go and fix it... hence my odd lack of punctuation and stuff... and using the | instead of a slash....

[Aladdin]

Not really. Its about the dumbing down of politics and the suggestions (not ever put quite into words, but implied) that if you vote Tory or want some sort of controlled immigration that you would also support mass genocide.

Now, I suspect that if challenged the impliers would back down and admit that they are exxagerating for effect. However, what they are doing is demonising those who have a perfectly legitimate viewpoint, albeit one they disagree with.

It come into the comments that the Tories, UKIP and BNP are all the same (and are all equivalent to the Nazis) when they are not remotely equivalent.

Though, p'haps I'm being paranoid... Fair enough.

Deep down no one is suggesting the Tories are a new Nazi party. However many people have genuine concerns that the nasty atmosphere of persecution in the country today is not unlike that in the 1930s, both in Germany and here, and the Tories are partially responsible for stirring it up.

There might well be some genuine concerns regarding, say, immigration, travellers, etc. But it is the cheap and alarmist way the Tories have gone about it that is the problem. You'd expect such blunt scaremongering and campaigning from marginal groups and nobodies, not from the biggest political force in Britain.

[The_Grapes_of_Sloth]

I certainly hope not, but this countries people are allowing internment without trial at least partly because the people affected at the moment look and act differently.

True...and that's not good. But we allowed that in WW2 as well when we interned all Italian's, Austrians and Germans without trial...and that was in a war against fascism. I don't think it really tainted us for good.

[Flashman's Ghost]

Fair enough.

Deep down no one is suggesting the Tories are a new Nazi party. However many people have genuine concerns that the nasty atmosphere of persecution in the country today is not unlike that in the 1930s, both in Germany and here, and the Tories are partially responsible for stirring it up.

There might well be some genuine concerns regarding, say, immigration, travellers, etc. But it is the cheap and alarmist way the Tories have gone about it that is the problem. You'd expect such blunt scaremongering and campaigning from marginal groups and nobodies, not from the biggest political force in Britain.

True enough and despite voting Tory I must admit I'm not a great fan of Howard, who is too right wing for my tastes. But the Tories are only partially responsible for stirring up feelings and part of the rest of the responsibility must go to those on the left who seek to equal racism with immigration policies.

Now I don't think either do it deliberately, but its a worrying trend when things such as immigration cannot be discussed rationally without being accused of racism. And to be fair its not immigration where this is happening - you can't say that perhaps some of the anti-terrorism measures are over the top without people on the right accussing you off being soft on terror.

I suppose all I'm saying is that there's more than one way to creat a fascist dictatorship and more than one way to silence your opponents.

[Aladdin]

I agree with what you say. Sadly we've reach a point where the debate has been completely polarised and the voices of moderates on both sides have been drown out by the shouts of the others.

Far more at fault than the recent Tory antics are the odious right wing tabloids, which have been at it for many years now.

[Flashman's Ghost]

As a moderate (I hope) I now and then try and raise a squeak...

[wheresmyplacebo]

True...and that's not good. But we allowed that in WW2 as well when we interned all Italian's, Austrians and Germans without trial...and that was in a war against fascism. I don't think it really tainted us for good.

those were wartime laws, it meant people in this country stayed alive, like no matter how cruel rationing was, it meant noone went without the basics

however, those laws ended as soon as the war ended, this 'war on terror' is nonsense, and can be argued that we'll always be fighting, people will support or say nothing about repressive laws as long as it doesnt affect them directly

[wheresmyplacebo]

As a moderate (I hope) I now and then try and raise a squeak...

yup it does get annoying when all you see people doing is repeating the same arguments witohut backing it up or saying theres flaws in their ideas

i werent suggesting its the tories in starting this thread, i was just saying its something people need to bear in mind when we turn to using scaremongering to get points across - as shown by the recent locking up of a terroist, by real investigation by the police, regrettably it resulted in the loss of life, but thats a seperate issue as the man got convicted on solid evidence and investigation, not on the whim of the home secretery

[Rich Kid]

It makes me smile to read the postings of those that accuse the Right and the tabloids of scaremongering, and then without blinking go on to say that the Tories are a Nazi-like party and the shadow of the 1930's is hanging over us again!

What utter rubbish and lies. The fact is Labour for the past 8 years has chosen not to defend our national borders nor implement any effective immigration policy. As a result of their incompetence we have possible terrorists walking the streets of our towns & cities, because to paraphrase Blunkett when he was Home Secretary, "we have no idea who is coming into the country!". This government has abdicated its prime responsibility which is to defend its borders and citizens.

We have seen many examples of people who have no legal right to be here committing multiple benefit fraud, driving without insurance, tax, or licence & and killing innocent people in the process), setting up poison factories, etc., and the people of this country are fed up being lied to and continually let down by this corrupt and morally bankrupt government.
So don't blame the press, always the first port of call for Lefties, the real reasons people have fears about their security firmly rests with Labour who have let them down so badly.

A government that cannot defend its own national borders is not worthy of being called a government.

[Blagsta]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/media/images/38168000/jpg/_38168995_toryboy150bbc.jpg