The Jewish

[Zella]

Why is there so much bad stuff said about jews?? I dont understand. What were the reasons that so many had to be killed in WW2? I mean I know they didnt have blonde hair and blue eyes but...

The only stereotype about jews I know is that they are tight money wise but thats not exactly a bad thing.

Can someone please explain this for me please cos I'm totally baffed on this one.

[BumbleBee]

http://www.faqfarm.com/History/WWII/33845

[Kentish]

I have no idea. I never have understood it.

[Teh_Gerbil]

Read the link above.

Also because they are, generally, considered the best capitalists. They can make alot of money, as they seem to be good at the monetary side of things.

Hence people who aren't as good envy them. Terrible thing.

[wheresmyplacebo]

Read the link above.

Also because they are, generally, considered the best capitalists. They can make alot of money, as they seem to be good at the monetary side of things.

Hence people who aren't as good envy them. Terrible thing.


not quite true

they were also blamed for the worldwide communist conspiracy by the nazis, seriously!

the general thought of "scroungers" comes from fact practising christians arent allowed to really lend money with interest whilst jewish could, thus seen as bad to the community, and the classic they got jesus killed

theres always a random historical basis for hatred

it used to give people who want someone to blame an easy target, bit like immigrants as a whole these days

[ShyBoy]

My beleif was that they were always the most succesful businessmen, the moneylenders, the bankers, the shop owners - and often the people with the most money weren't liked. I'm no historian but all my knowledge of the victorian age in England from various fiction writings make money lenders out to be cruel, corrupt, vile people.

But anyway - hitler needed a scapegoat, the Jews weren't popular anyway, in fact they were disliked pretty much everywhere I think. Like in the UK lots of people dislike immigrants dont they? It wouldn't be hard for a party to stir up hatred enough and get everyone to blame them for something (remember germany was a desperate country with a ruined economy and massive unemployment) and we have a genocide on our hands, or at least mass racial attacks.

Envy and scapegoating are IMO two of the largest reasons behind ethnic cleansing / national racism / other appropriate terminology.

[Kentish]

Read the link above.
I have, but hatred (or envy if you prefer) of Jews have gone on for millennia and I don't know why and never will.

[Dear Wendy]

Capitalism + Communism + Christ. And add the fact that Jews have always distinguished themselves.
Usually by the time a family has been a certain place for 3-5 generations then they will have assimilated. While this has of course also happened with Jews, then you have Jews being in Denmark for example since the 17th Century and still going strong as Jews.
A strong sense of identity I would say. Then again, some will say that it is forced due to the dislike in the first place.

[rachie004]

someone answer the same question for me, but with Catholicism

It must be something to do with my grandmother's generation cos she gets on about it ALL the time

[Teh_Gerbil]

Catholics because tehy have REALLY strong biased steryotypes and stuff. I have a strong catholic friend, and he thinks that all evil in the world is Jews, and Communism, and non-westerners. Racist to the limit, alot of them are.

[Dear Wendy]

Again I think it has something to do with power and might. Add in some paedophilic priests and the clashes in Ireland (where I suppose Protestants ask "why us?"), and I think you've got the reason.

[Zella]

and the classic they got jesus killed




I was always led to believe that it was the romans...

[Kentish]

I was always led to believe that it was the romans...
To be fair, it was all of humanity. Blame Adam and Eve if you want a scapegoat.

[Martin_Bashir]

also in a more modern context, orthadox Jews are also easily identifiable for people who just want an excuse to shout at someone...

[Yerascrote]

Again I think it has something to do with power and might. Add in some paedophilic priests and the clashes in Ireland (where I suppose Protestants ask "why us?"), and I think you've got the reason.

:rolleyes: and you yap at us for stereotyping Jews...

[Dear Wendy]

:rolleyes: and you yap at us for stereotyping Jews...
Where did I stereotype?

[Yerascrote]

Where did I stereotype?

didn't say you did...you yap at us when we do but to make totally outrageous and stupid comments like protestants wondering why us is alright is it...

[Murph Redux]

Zella,

Yes there are Jews with blue eyes and blond hair and there are some(Ethiopian I believe) who are very dark skinned. I believe the following: Ignorance breeds fear, fear breeds anger, anger breeds hatred, hatred has allowed us to slaughter our fellows at an alarmingly efficient rate.

I simply don't understand hatred that would cause someone to systematically murder 6 million Jews. I don't understand the murder of Gays, Gypsies, Slavs,
and a host of other groups either.

I am continually astounded at the capability of humanity to act in an inhumane fashion. No, I suppose I don't have an answer after all. :crying:

[Toadborg]

My beleif was that they were always the most succesful businessmen, the moneylenders, the bankers, the shop owners - and often the people with the most money weren't liked. I'm no historian but all my knowledge of the victorian age in England from various fiction writings make money lenders out to be cruel, corrupt, vile people.

.

I beleieve the association of Jews as businessmen is generally thought to be a result of discrimination in earlier times.

Because it was harder to find employment people had to set up their own businesses. Businessmen tend to be richer, hence envy, hence hate. Rather simplistic but some truth probably........

The Nazi beleief of Jewish involvement in Communism came I beleiev as a result of the fact that the majority of the leaders of the communists in the 1919 attempoted revolution were Jewish........

The same pattern of discrimination leading to the entrepreneurial spirit can still be seen today i.e. with British Asians.......

[Teh_Gerbil]

Just another point:

The hardline Jews tend to go on about how they are Gods Chosen People and therefore are superior, and regard everyone else as inferior.

Only the Hardliners mind.

Also, Watch the Original Oliver twist for anti-semetic things.

[katchika]

Don't all devoted religious people think they are god's chosen people, it's hardly exclusive to Jews.

[Spliffie]

I beleieve the association of Jews as businessmen is generally thought to be a result of discrimination in earlier times.

Because it was harder to find employment people had to set up their own businesses. Businessmen tend to be richer, hence envy, hence hate. Rather simplistic but some truth probably........

The Nazi beleief of Jewish involvement in Communism came I beleiev as a result of the fact that the majority of the leaders of the communists in the 1919 attempoted revolution were Jewish........

The same pattern of discrimination leading to the entrepreneurial spirit can still be seen today i.e. with British Asians.......

Jews played a big part in Communism...yet also played a big part in capitalism (jewish banking families, such as the Rothschilds etc)...people on the far-right today still interpret this as some kind of conspiracy...that the jews control both socialism and capitalism, which work against the concepts of nation and race. That's the general anti-semitic "theory". Sort of like fucked up anti-globalisationalism (if there's such a word lol).

[Teh_Gerbil]

And Michael Howard is nearly a Facist. So ho-hum!

[Dear Wendy]

didn't say you did...you yap at us when we do but to make totally outrageous and stupid comments like protestants wondering why us is alright is it...

I don't believe that my comment was in any way stupid or demeaning. Just highlighting that protestants probably understand why they are exposed to Catholic hatred, as much as vice versa.

I think you try too hard to disagree with me.
Though if you felt that I crossed a line, then fair enough, I apologise.

[Dear Wendy]

Just another point:

The hardline Jews tend to go on about how they are Gods Chosen People and therefore are superior, and regard everyone else as inferior.

Only the Hardliners mind.

Also, Watch the Original Oliver twist for anti-semetic things.

For 46732974293th time. The Jewish belief of being Gods chosen people does not in any way imply that we're superior and everyone else is inferior. It is the belief that the Jews were chosen to recieve the Torah (bible) from God on mount Sinai and to live according to those rules.

[Senor Miguel]

For 46732974293th time. The Jewish belief of being Gods chosen people does not in any way imply that we're superior and everyone else is inferior. It is the belief that the Jews were chosen to recieve the Torah (bible) from God on mount Sinai and to live according to those rules.

by definition if your god's chosen people that makes you special, and if noone else is, then what are they? less special than you?........i think that is what's implied, although not every jew holds this view, some must it's simple logic....

[Dear Wendy]

by definition if your god's chosen people that makes you special, and if noone else is, then what are they? less special than you?........i think that is what's implied, although not every jew holds this view, some must it's simple logic....

You go too far with it I believe. I mean one might associate that way, but it doesn't mean it's correct.

Of course some share that view.
Then again you have the same thought appearing among Christians, Muslims, Atheists etc.

[Senor Miguel]

yes but christians, muslims etc identify with each other solely through religion, with jews you have the whole race thing, so being a 'chosen people' i.e. through blood is different isn't it really.......

[Dear Wendy]

yes but christians, muslims etc identify with each other solely through religion, with jews you have the whole race thing, so being a 'chosen people' i.e. through blood is different isn't it really.......

Only in the terms of semantics.

[Disillusioned]

yes but christians, muslims etc identify with each other solely through religion, with jews you have the whole race thing, so being a 'chosen people' i.e. through blood is different isn't it really.......

Judaism is not a race. I could never become black or Asian but there are black and Asian Jews and blacks and Asians who have become Jews.

And as a convert to Judaism is regarded as being as Jewish as any other Jew it is hard to describe Judaism as a race.

The chosen people concept is also frequently misunderstood. Many other religions - many Christians and many Muslims for example believe non believers are condemned to eternal damnation. Christians trying to convert you to Christianity believe they must do in order to 'save' you.

Judaism however is different in that it believes anybody can achieve a place in the World to Come by observing 7 laws of humanity. These laws were called the "Laws of Noah"

1. Don't murder.
2. Don't steal.
3. Don't worship false gods.
4. Don't be sexually immoral.
5. Don't eat the limb of an animal before it is killed.
6. Don't curse God.
7. Set up courts and bring offenders to justice.

Oh and I'm continually surprised at how popular this subject seems on these boards.

[Senor Miguel]

Judaism is not a race.

tell that to jacq........obviously judaism is a religion not a race, but jews see themselves as a 'people', if they are not a race then define why this is and how is this different from any other religion? christianity is a religion but christians are not a people.........i have discussed the origin of the word jew before anyways, if you don't get it go have a good read.......

[Aladdin]

If Judaism is not a race then the term "secular Jew" is surely an oxymoron...

[Senor Miguel]

If Judaism is not a race then the term "secular Jew" is surely an oxymoron...

indeed......jews are misunderstood, often even by themselves, and therein lies controversy...........

[Dear Wendy]

I have had this discussion today already.

I believe Jews to be a people.
Disillusioned doesn't.

[Dear Wendy]

indeed......jews are misunderstood, often even by themselves, and therein lies controversy...........

So based on some conspiracy sites, claiming that we sit in synagogue with the intent to plan a way to overthrow the government, you believe yourself to be an expert and knowledgable on the "true" Jewish way and percepton of life?

[Senor Miguel]

I have had this discussion today already.

I believe Jews to be a people.
Disillusioned doesn't.

I believe the Jews think of themselves as a people, and hence that becomes the common truth, when in fact it's not that straightforward.....

[Disillusioned]

tell that to jacq........obviously judaism is a religion not a race, but jews see themselves as a 'people', if they are not a race then define why this is and how is this different from any other religion? christianity is a religion but christians are not a people.........i have discussed the origin of the word jew before anyways, if you don't get it go have a good read.......

Umm you’re generalising.

but jews see themselves as a 'people'

You can’t make blanket statements about Jews, or every other religion that I can think of for that matter. Within Judaism there is disagreement amongst Jews on a huge number of issues.

I guess this is one of them. And it seems Judaism is different to other religions in that an atheist Jew will still probably call themselves Jewish or be referred to as Jewish. Whereas say somebody is raised as a Christian, if they then become an atheist I doubt they'd call themselves a Christian or be referred to as one. So I think Judaism is more than a religion.

Some people say Judaism is cultural – bagels, Yiddish language, latkes, geftile fish, etc. But as that’s Ashkenazic Jewish culture and Sephardic and Ethiopian Jews would not consider it their culture.

So I haven't really explained it. It's not a race but not just a religion but more than a culture...I guess that's Judaism.

[Aladdin]

I believe them to be a people too. Ultimately it depends on the individual concerned to see themselves as one or not I guess...

[Dear Wendy]

I believe the Jews think of themselves as a people, and hence that becomes the common truth, when in fact it's not that straightforward.....

We've had this discussion before, and Kentish will confirm that there are blood-diseases linked especially to Jews.

[Aladdin]

Umm you’re generalising.



You can’t make blanket statements about Jews, or every other religion that I can think of for that matter. Within Judaism there is disagreement amongst Jews on a huge number of issues.

I guess this is one of them. And it seems Judaism is different to other religions in that an atheist Jew will still probably call themselves Jewish or be referred to as Jewish. Whereas say somebody is raised as a Christian, if they then become an atheist I doubt they'd call themselves a Christian or be referred to as one. So I think Judaism is more than a religion.

Some people say Judaism is cultural – bagels, Yiddish language, latkes, geftile fish, etc. But as that’s Ashkenazic Jewish culture and Sephardic and Ethiopian Jews would not consider it their culture.

So I haven't really explained it. It's not a race but not just a religion but more than a culture...I guess that's Judaism. I see what you mean now. When I see them as a people I'm not necessarily implying is a race... though if you're not a religious Jew I guess you would have had to be born into it... But I agree on the culture and customs common link.

And you're right that atheists who were raised as Christians don't call themselves that. I guess I don't call myself anything...

[Senor Miguel]

So based on some conspiracy sites, claiming that we sit in synagogue with the intent to plan a way to overthrow the government, you believe yourself to be an expert and knowledgable on the "true" Jewish way and percepton of life?

:lol: you really don't know my opinion on jews so don't try and second guess me.......i know roughly 80% of jews are of eastern european descent, from a time when the khazar empire ruled and converted to judaism, this is all public record in a jewish encyclopaedia sitting in an american library (can't remember which one....)........therefore it's not that straightforward is it.......never claimed to be an expert, the posts so far on this thread show a clear misunderstanding about who the jews really are, something that is perpetuated by jews themselves, probably unknowingly by most.

[Kentish]

Kentish will confirm that there are blood-diseases linked especially to Jews.
Some diseases are more prevalent amongst Jews, certainly. I don't think there is a Jewish-only disease.

Culture or race it matters not. How have Jews become a regular target of persecution?

[stargalaxy]

What were the reasons that so many had to be killed in WW2? To answer this question, one has to go back to the 1920s. Germany was doing well at the time, the econony was doing okay. In 1923, Hitler made an attempt to take over the country - known as a putsch - and was jailed for several years as a result. Whilst in prison, he wrote Mein Kampf, a book about his ideas and views, seen by many historians now as a rambling and incoherent book.

Moving on a few years to the early 1930s, the situation was a whole lot different. The Great Depression was taking place firmly after the Wall Street Crash. I believe that Hitler used the Jews as a scapegoat for the massive problems that Germany was then facing under the Weimar Republic. People like having someone to blame when something goes wrong, and Hitler was using and exploiting this fact. Of course, one can see that, under the Final Solution, it had disastrous effects.

No one knows for certain whether the Final Solution was ever planned, or whether it simply came about because of Hitler's extremely confused style of government. He wrote a book in the 1920s about his ideas, (whilst in prison after a failed putsch) and nowhere in it does he say that he believes Jews should be killed. Personally, I don't know for certain who authorised this horrendous event, but Hitler must have known about it.

[Dear Wendy]

:lol: you really don't know my opinion on jews so don't try and second guess me.......i know roughly 80% of jews are of eastern european descent, from a time when the khazar empire ruled and converted to judaism, this is all public record in a jewish encyclopaedia sitting in an american library (can't remember which one....)........therefore it's not that straightforward is it.......never claimed to be an expert, the posts so far on this thread show a clear misunderstanding about who the jews really are, something that is perpetuated by jews themselves......

True. I can only know what you write on these fora, and so far the above explained it really well, if I have to say so myself.

Now, either way, how will you tell people what they are, or are not? The Khazars might have converted, but again as Disillusioned said, in theory this should make no difference to their claim as Jews.

[Dear Wendy]

Personally, I don't know for certain who authorised this horrendous event, but Hitler must have known about it.

Eichmann.

[Flashman's Ghost]

I think it is know it was planned - the Wannsee conference is proof of that.

I know that some 'historians' claim that Hitler knew nothing about the death camps and that it was the result of over-zealous subordinates. Personally I find it difficult to believe that a man who was so into detail he knew the exact placement of every division on the Eastern Front could fail to notice a chunk of his manpower was off exterminating Jews and others.

[Senor Miguel]

How have Jews become a regular target of persecution?

Personally I think it stems from Jewish tendency to practice usury (banking/lending), which was seen as immoral back in the day, (i still think banking practices are completely wrong) hence why King Edward threw them out of England in 1290? because they broke the Statute of Jewry..........but of course this is stuff you will never find out unless you look for yourself.

[Kentish]

fora
:chin: forum, forums ?fora

[Dear Wendy]

:chin: forum, forums ?fora

penis, penii
forum, fora
konto, konti

[Senor Miguel]

True. I can only know what you write on these fora, and so far the above explained it really well, if I have to say so myself.

Now, either way, how will you tell people what they are, or are not? The Khazars might have converted, but again as Disillusioned said, in theory this should make no difference to their claim as Jews.

Well thanks for the compliment..........their claim to be Jews can be called into question because of the origin of the word Jew..........the word didn't exist until the word IIewes was shortened in the King James translation of the bible, which meant people who were from Judea, hence Judean..............so how can people from eastern europe be Judean?........explain this and put my mind at rest....

[Dear Wendy]

Well thanks for the compliment..........their claim to be Jews can be called into question because of the origin of the word Jew..........the word didn't exist until the word IIewes was shortened in the King James translation of the bible, which meant people who were from Judea, hence Judean..............so how can people from eastern europe be Judean?........explain this and put my mind at rest....

Again, semantics.
How can I be Danish when I have no Danish blood in me whatsoever? Same damn thing.

[Senor Miguel]

it goes further than semantics really, i think you can see this so don't blur the issue..........if you don't have danish blood, than you are not of danish descent..........you can apply for danish nationality, but you will not have danish blood............same way I think of myself as British, i live and grew up here but in reality my mum is german and my dad indian.........so i'm not of british descent am i?......

[Kentish]

penis, penii
forum, fora
konto, konti
The plural of penis is penises (or penes), and I don't know what konto is. I'd say forums.

[Disillusioned]

it goes further than semantics really, i think you can see this so don't blur the issue..........if you don't have danish blood, than you are not of danish descent..........you can apply for danish nationality, but you will not have danish blood............same way I think of myself as British, i live and grew up here but in reality my mum is german and my dad indian.........so i'm not of british descent am i?......

But what is British? There’s no such thing as a single English race let alone a British race.

[Dear Wendy]

it goes further than semantics really, i think you can see this so don't blur the issue..........if you don't have danish blood, than you are not of danish descent..........you can apply for danish nationality, but you will not have danish blood............same way I think of myself as British, i live and grew up here but in reality my mum is german and my dad indian.........so i'm not of british descent am i?......
Your kids and grandkids will though.
And again, if you refered to Jews as "polkadotted" you'd still be talking about the same group of people with the same history. As much as I personally know people's love for word and name origins, then I think it is irelevant for the point you're trying to make.
Btw, I don't think I am bluring the issue at all.

[Flashman's Ghost]

Personally I think it stems from Jewish tendency to practice usury (banking/lending), which was seen as immoral back in the day, (i still think banking practices are completely wrong) hence why King Edward threw them out of England in 1290? because they broke the Statute of Jewry..........but of course this is stuff you will never find out unless you look for yourself.

Others think that the English threw them out because the English kings owed them lots of money or alternatively to gain favour with the Papacy so that the Pope would turn a blind eye to the subjucation of Scotland. The Statute of Jewry was just a legal fiction to allow him to do this.

Its not hard to find this stuff out - any semi-decent history of England tends to mention, picking a book at random (Norman Davies 'The Isles') mentions it on p317-318.

And if you visit York there is a prominent plaque commerating several hundred Jews burnt to death during the expulsion. Its hardly a secret history...

[Dear Wendy]

The plural of penis is penises (or penes), and I don't know what konto is. I'd say forums.


I guess they're both possible. One is more common, and the other is more proper I assume.

[Senor Miguel]

But what is British? There’s no such thing as a single English race let alone a British race.

i agree, britain has been invaded many times over there is no clear race, but their blood is related (viking descent?), their skin looks the same, whatever mix they are i have none of that in me........that's my point, races and nationalities have become blurred..........nothing wrong with that except it confuses the hell out of people, this asian program on the other day, some pakistanis think of themselves as british pakistani, clearly that is not a race..........my kids and grandkids will say 'why aren't I white then?', and i will explain it to them........

and NQA, believe what you will there is no way to definitely prove either story, all i'm saying is the history books are riddled with inaccuracies, so i wouldn't take that as gospel..........i dont know of this plaque you speak of, but when jews were thrown out it was not out of malice or anything, they were escorted out of the country by british ships, there is even a story of a british sea captain helping some jews out who had been robbed by sea pirates, and recaptured their ship for them, so it really depends what version of history you choose to look at.........

[Yerascrote]

I don't believe that my comment was in any way stupid or demeaning. Just highlighting that protestants probably understand why they are exposed to Catholic hatred, as much as vice versa.

I think you try too hard to disagree with me.
Though if you felt that I crossed a line, then fair enough, I apologise.

ok...it's hard for me to explain but basically there is no catholic hatred to protestants...maybe a few bigots here and there but the IRA is a marxist orginisation...nothin to do with religion but that stigma has been attached to it...99% of catholics don't mind protestants and vice versa here to be honest. :)

[Flashman's Ghost]

Of course history is riddled with inaccuracies, but by the medieval period we're starting to get some pretty accurate 'civil servant' reports and a more literate population who would begin to write things down.

I fail to see your point that the English were feeling charitable towards the Jews because they escorted them - the SS escorted them to Auschwitz, but I don't think that because they wanted them not to be harmed, but more to make sure they got where they were meant to be going and didn't escape.

The story of the Captain sounds like a medieval romance to me (of the type Walter Scott seemed to write), but even if true it can be read in many different ways a) not all the English were heartless bastards and/or b) any Pirate ship operating off the English coast was probably one of the Kings enemies and I imagine he would be less than pleased if an Englishman who had a chance to destroy him didn't.

Edward I was a heartless bastard. He wasn't nicknamed the Hammer of the Scots for nothing.

Small apology - looking at the massacre again it was a mob in 1190 rather than under Edward. Richard the Lionheart was actually pretty pissed that his main source of taxation had been murdered and decided to impose some arbitrary taxation on the remaining Jews, forcing them in turn to raise their interest rates and to become even more unpopular with those who owed them money.

[Jim V]

Out of interest there used to be an anti-racist demo at the site of the massacre each year, until it was stopped - not sure if they ever got the right to demo there back

[morrocan roll]

http://img217.exs.cx/img217/5773/usflagzion7po.jpg

[Dear Wendy]

Care to elaborate?


Showed the pic to my friend, he cut off the last line as is now using it as his MSN display pic.

[Jah]

What would life be like without Jewish jokes?

One evening, after quite a few drinks, Jo and Abe stagger across Battersea Bridge when they both decide to take a much needed ‘leak‘ over the side. After a few moments Jo says, “Brrrrr, isn’t the Thames cold tonight?” where upon Abe replies, “Yeh…deep too!”


The next time something shitty happens, "Laugh, and make a joke about it"

[Senor Miguel]

Care to elaborate?...........cut off the last line

:chin: are you playing dumb?.......

[Dear Wendy]

:chin: are you playing dumb?.......
I wanted to know if I had misunderstood anything.

And just for your information, I take the above as a compliment. Seriously.

[Namaste]

thus seen as bad to the community, and the classic they got jesus killed

Even though crucifixion is a Roman method of execution.

[queenmab_roo]

Even though crucifixion is a Roman method of execution.
The Jewish people were given the choice of having the Roman-led government crucify either Jesus or Barrabas (might be wrong name! but he was a murderer anyway) and to let the other go free. The Jewish people- or citizens of that time- called for the blood of jesus, who as far as i know didn't murder anyone, rather than killing the murderer. The Roman governer did not want the responsibility of this choice, and gave it to the people. The jews did not like what he was preaching, and after all, with the success of christianity, you can see why they thought him an extremely dangerous man, no?

[queenmab_roo]

double post!

[Asian-American]

Here is an article I found:

The Case Against the Jews: ****

I don't know how true it is or not though, but it does sum up why people don't like Jews too much.


* that might represent how some racists feel, but it hardly has anything to add in a sensible debate

[Blagsta]

Racist nonsense.

[Senor Miguel]

And just for your information, I take the above as a compliment. Seriously.

You take it as a compliment that American soldiers think they are getting blown up in Iraq as part of their patriotic duty to the motherland, along with countless civilians, when in fact it's being done out of Jewish/Zionist interests, as admitted in the Haaretz newspaper only a few months ago?.............that might explain why some people are none too fond of jews........no?

[Dear Wendy]

You take it as a compliment that American soldiers think they are getting blown up in Iraq as part of their patriotic duty to the motherland, along with countless civilians, when in fact it's being done out of Jewish/Zionist interests, as admitted in the Haaretz newspaper only a few months ago?.............that might explain why some people are none too fond of jews........no?

See, that was what I wanted to know about the flag. What the exact sentiment about it is. Care to share the Haaretz article?

Either way, I take it as a compliment that you obviously don't regard me as dumb.

[ShyBoy]

Even though crucifixion is a Roman method of execution.

Not that it's relevant, but wasn't crucifiction (fairly) widespread, it wasn't just the Romans who did it. Kind of besides the point... but you know.

[Flashman's Ghost]

Not that it's relevant, but wasn't crucifiction (fairly) widespread, it wasn't just the Romans who did it. Kind of besides the point... but you know.

I think the Japanese in the 16th/17th century also crucified people - though possible they heard about it from Christian missionaries...

[Senor Miguel]

See, that was what I wanted to know about the flag. What the exact sentiment about it is.

I would've thought that was obvious jacq........

I take it as a compliment that you obviously don't regard me as dumb.

maybe i was wrong about you :p .........no really i don't think your dumb, its obvious you have your wits about you, just in a somewhat misguided direction.....

Care to share the Haaretz article?

Seeing as you asked so nicely.........it took me a while to dig it up, so i do hope you read it in its entirety..........here (http://www.haaretzdaily.com/hasen/pages/ShArt.jhtml?itemNo=280279) you go

of course this is hardly news, the guardian (http://www.guardian.co.uk/Archive/Article/0,4273,4493638,00.html) reported this story a few years ago, and in a bit more detail, it's just nice to see the israelis admit to it.......

the gist of the story is that in 1996 an israeli thinktank released a paper which was to be a blueprint for shaping israel's future in the region, starting with the removal of saddam and from there, iran, syria, lebanon, its quite frightening actually when you compare it with current u.s. foreign policy..........what's more frightening is that several members of this thinktank are now top white house advisers and hold other positions in u.s. govt, i'm talking richard perle, douglas feith, david wurmser (special assistant to john bolton), james colbert (member of JINSA, whose former members include dick cheney, douglas feith, john bolton)...............i'm sorry but this is no coincidence, in fact it's blindingly obvious, just the majority of people out there are too stupid to see it.

[Jim V]

I'm pretty certain the japanese used crucifixition as a punishment for gajin missionaries, essentially to rub in how much they didn't want chrisitian missionaries there, might be wrong though most of my japanese knowledge comes from films where swords make swishy noises

[Toadborg]

I beleive the Persians did it as well..........

[Flashman's Ghost]

I'm pretty certain the japanese used crucifixition as a punishment for gajin missionaries, essentially to rub in how much they didn't want chrisitian missionaries there, might be wrong though most of my japanese knowledge comes from films where swords make swishy noises

To be fair my entire knowledge of this comes from watching the mini-series Shogun...

[Senor Miguel]

well my internet went down last nite, but i was expecting some kind of reply from you jacq.........what's the matter, truth is out?

[Dear Wendy]

well my internet went down last nite, but i was expecting some kind of reply from you jacq.........what's the matter, truth is out?

Sorry, went away and forgot to reply as the post wasn't at the top.

Either way, from what I gathered from the Haaretz article, then it didn't point out them being Jewish an issue as such (except from them pointing it out at the introduction).
I think that their Jewish heritage though, does support the ideology which is carrying Bush right now, with the whole Yeremias (I think it's called that) idea. Then again, you have some very profilic Democrats who are Jewish too.
Jews are involved in every aspect of society, especially the American. Therefore I think it's wrong to blame Jews as a whole for the political trends, as they're more or less spread out throughout the spectrum.
I mean, just this morning there was an interview with my friend's big brother about his involvement as the chairman of Danish Atheist asociation or whatever it's called.
I honestly don't think you can pinpoint and say "that's the Jews", unless it involves the situation in Israel (which I don't want to discuss here, but in another thread if you should feel the need to).
And that's also why I would never vote for a Jew, as no matter what the person did it would affect the whole Jewish community despite of the person being an individual and a political representative rather than a religious one.

[Senor Miguel]

Either way, from what I gathered from the Haaretz article, then it didn't point out them being Jewish an issue as such (except from them pointing it out at the introduction).

aye, but that's about as much of an admission as you'll get, did you read the guardian article? much more in depth.........

I think that their Jewish heritage though, does support the ideology which is carrying Bush right now, with the whole Yeremias (I think it's called that) idea. Then again, you have some very profilic Democrats who are Jewish too.
Jews are involved in every aspect of society, especially the American. Therefore I think it's wrong to blame Jews as a whole for the political trends, as they're more or less spread out throughout the spectrum.

you're right Jews are everywhere, it's not a good/bad thing, and i dont think they are all plotting on one great agenda, but when you look at israel's plans in 1996 and bush's now, it's no coincidence is it.......

I honestly don't think you can pinpoint and say "that's the Jews", unless it involves the situation in Israel

Well, that's my point........how do you explain these officials who were plotting the overthrow of the middle east in israel as far back as 1996 now wielding immense power in america?..........

[Dear Wendy]

Because they promise the messiah and one never comes. Oh, Jesus came, they killed him. The next one comes, nobody believes him, forever and ever, amen.

Sorry, I'm in an a-hole mood. Well, I'm not really, it's others opinion, not mine.

Because that in Judaism it is believed that some things will take place when Messiah comes. Jesus didn't fullfill that, and neither has anyone else.

apollo 69, haven't read the Guardian article yet.

[Yerascrote]

Because that in Judaism it is believed that some things will take place when Messiah comes. Jesus didn't fullfill that, and neither has anyone else.


is it not a bit delusional and idealist to still believe whatever needs to be done is going to be done...some guy probably made that up for his own pleasure for all we know...can we not like all believe in just God...whatever your version of god is and get rid of all organised religion...just look at all the shit it has caused.

[ShyBoy]

is it not a bit delusional and idealist to still believe whatever needs to be done is going to be done...some guy probably made that up for his own pleasure for all we know...can we not like all believe in just God...whatever your version of god is and get rid of all organised religion...just look at all the shit it has caused.

Don't quote me, but the buddhists seem quite tame. Maybe we should all become buddhists :yes:

[ShyBoy]

Because that in Judaism it is believed that some things will take place when Messiah comes. Jesus didn't fullfill that, and neither has anyone else.

Maybe it's possible he did, just nobody was looking :chin:

[Yerascrote]

Don't quote me, but the buddhists seem quite tame. Maybe we should all become buddhists :yes:

ha fuck all that re-encarnation shite...well if you believe in it then fair play...i just want a belief system where you can believe what ya want and won't get ridiculed for it and won't be a target for others because of it... :chin: who invented God...he was a bit of a dick whoever he was...maybe it was time...

[Dear Wendy]

is it not a bit delusional and idealist to still believe whatever needs to be done is going to be done...some guy probably made that up for his own pleasure for all we know...can we not like all believe in just God...whatever your version of god is and get rid of all organised religion...just look at all the shit it has caused.

I thought that it was clear by now that when I explain about the religious aspects of Judaism, then it's just that. Not necessarily my own belief.

[Yerascrote]

I thought that it was clear by now that when I explain about the religious aspects of Judaism, then it's just that. Not necessarily my own belief.

oh...i just assumed you adhered to every aspect of the religion...99% of religion is fucking bollocks...there is a good meaning and message behind it but it doesn't need books,scriptures,laws or doctrines, just stupid how we've all split on the whole issue of God, something that can't even be proven...makes me wonder..do people believe because they have faith or because they're afraid to die and for there to be nothing after so dupe themselves into believing... :chin:

[Dear Wendy]

oh...i just assumed you adhered to every aspect of the religion...99% of religion is fucking bollocks...there is a good meaning and message behind it but it doesn't need books,scriptures,laws or doctrines, just stupid how we've all split on the whole issue of God, something that can't even be proven...makes me wonder..do people believe because they have faith or because they're afraid to die and for there to be nothing after so dupe themselves into believing... :chin:

There are lots of reason., probably due in another thread.

Either way, your assumption just makes me believe that my words aren't read properly.

[Yerascrote]

There are lots of reason., probably due in another thread.

Either way, your assumption just makes me believe that my words aren't read properly.

which words...i havne't read all this thread...

[Jon_UK]

Anti-semtisim dates waaay back.

The egyptians enslaved the Jews before Moses and the Torah came about although i don't think that was due to them being Jews rather just available man power as it were.

I think the major sources behind anti-semitism rest in three areas.

Firstly as someone else said way earlier on the fact that Judaism permits moneylending while Catholicism didn't - everybody loves a moneylender until its time to repay them and suddenly their the scum of the earth . . . its easy to imagine a number of people finding that the source of their woes is those damn repayments which all seem to be to Jewish people and developing prejudice.

Secondly going back to the Persian period even before the time of Ezra and Nehemiah Judaism was a monotheistic semi-autonomous state that demanded ethnic purity for citizenship in an empire (and surrounded by principalities and nations) that was polytheistic. The separation of Jews and gentiles, the refusal to let the samites join the fold during the building of the Second Temple - all these kinds of things are going to project an image of elitism. Again during the Maccabean revolts under Antiochus (either III or IV i can't remember) of Selucia - the refusal to adopt the laws and cultures of a polis is going to rub raw on a culture that considers itself superior to other 'barbarian' ones and these attitudes spread fast.

And finally the spread of Jews into other cultures - people always look for scapegoats among those who are different . . . its not just jews. Those of Indian descent in Britain have been on the wrong end of racial prejudice, black americans in the US - almost any state with a strong nationaly identity will resent a large ethnic minority.

With Germany (and i don't know how true this is but i remember reading it somewhere) didn't Hitler have a Jewish superior while in WW1 who treated him badly or something? Kind of a worrying thought that something like the Holocaust could have been caused by something as innocuous as that isn't it?

[analyst]

Hitller blamed the jews for being the people in power in Germany who signed the treaty of Versailles . Hitler was injured by gas during the war also.

Now the Israelies seem to be enacting there own holocaust.

[Dear Wendy]

Hitller blamed the jews for being the people in power in Germany who signed the treaty of Versailles . Hitler was injured by gas during the war also.

Now the Israelies seem to be enacting there own holocaust.

Yes.

[morrocan roll]

Kind of a worrying thought that something like the Holocaust could have been caused by something as innocuous as that isn't it?
the first world war was caused by a fucking student ...how scary is that!

[Disillusioned]

Hitller blamed the jews for being the people in power in Germany who signed the treaty of Versailles . Hitler was injured by gas during the war also.

Now the Israelies seem to be enacting there own holocaust.

:yuck: A sick and disgustingly inaccurate post.

No comparison can be made between the carnage carried out by the Nazis against the Jews and Israel’s policies towards Palestinians. The Nazi’s ‘final solution’ was a deliberate, systematic and calculated attempt to destroy Judaism in Europe which led to the premeditated murder of six million Jews.

Israel on the other hand is simply defending itself from those who crave Israel’s destruction. Israel wants to make peace with the Palestinians through negotiations. Israel has never had nor ever will a plan to systematically persecute innocent Palestinians. The link you’re making is a cruel attempt to stir up inflammatory talk and is insulting – for Jews the Holocaust is still a painful memory. Those that accuse Israel of treating Palestinians like the Nazis treated the Jews either severely misunderstand the present conflict and the horrors of Nazism or alternatively are showing how extreme they are in their hatred towards free and democratic Israel.

[freethepeeps]

Israel on the other hand is simply defending itself from those who crave Israel’s destruction. Israel wants to make peace with the Palestinians through negotiations. Israel has never had nor ever will a plan to systematically persecute innocent Palestinians.

Israel, old bean, is moving its own civilians into the Occupied Territories. This is not an act of self defence - it is aggressive, beligerent colonialism.

Israel refused to attend the London conference just in case it called on to move into final status negotiations. We are aware that Gaza will remain under Israeli control, and will still be subject to attack by the Israeli military. We are aware that there is massive settlement activity, just as there was during Oslo. We are also aware that the Israelis are demanding that Abbas dismantle the resistance before they will move into final status talks. None of these things back up your claim that Israel *wants* to make peace, at best there is an intention to impose Israel's terms onto any final status talks. And they are not in accord with Palestinian red lines, nor with International law..

As for Israel not persecuting Palestinians, people have enough information to make the assessment for themselves.

Unfortunately.....


ETA: I don't see the comparison to the holocaust as helpful, but that doesn't mean that what Israel is doing to the Palestinians isn't horrific.

:no:

[Disillusioned]

Israel, old bean, is moving its own civilians into the Occupied Territories. This is not an act of self defence - it is aggressive, beligerent colonialism.

Seeing as Jewish settlements have existed in the West Bank for hundreds of years I don’t believe it is fair to call settlements in the Disputed Territories colonial. Anyway the roadmap states that Israel should suspend settlement activity. PM Sharon's disengagement plan will withdraw all Jewish settlers and dismantle all settlements from Gaza, some settlements and settlers will also withdraw from the West Bank. Now hopefully this will happen by the end of 2005. Israel is clearly showing its willingness to compromise here.

As for Israel not persecuting Palestinians, people have enough information to make the assessment for themselves.

Has Israel committed wrongdoings against Palestinians? Sadly, yes. However Israel has never deliberately and intentionally went out to murder innocent Palestinians. Israel’s motives have been consistent – to defend itself and ensure its security. Whereas Palestinian terrorists have acted purely of malice and hatred - an aim to kill innocent people. IDF soldiers don't want to kill innocent people, a suicide bomber meanwhile has the aim of killing the maximum number of innocent people possible.

[Teh_Gerbil]

Hmm,so shhoting civilians with helicopters is self defence? Jury's out on this one I guess. :chin:

The Israeli's commit acts of murdering civilians as revenge I guess. Only thing being, the makes more terrorists when some innocent chap finds his wife and kids dead, he decides as he has nothing left, to blow himself up to get his own back.

Terrorism cannot really be sucessfully fought until the Masses are happy or to brainwashed to do anything about it. Religion breeds this when preached as a weapon, as well as the simple fact that Israel was a created state, by, the West of course!

Its a problem we made and unfortunatley cannot be sucessfully solved. Shame both sides couldn't realise tihs and get on with life.

[freethepeeps]

Seeing as Jewish settlements have existed in the West Bank for hundreds of years I don’t believe it is fair to call settlements in the Disputed Territories colonial. Anyway the roadmap states that Israel should suspend settlement activity. PM Sharon's disengagement plan will withdraw all Jewish settlers and dismantle all settlements from Gaza, some settlements and settlers will also withdraw from the West Bank. Now hopefully this will happen by the end of 2005. Israel is clearly showing its willingness to compromise here.

Jewish settlements on stolen Palestinian land, occupied in many cases by people from different continents, with the full support of the |sraeli government and military are not quite the thing as these ancient jewish settlements of which you speak. Israel was supposed to suspend settlement activity during Oslo, it doubled the number of residential units. Not exactly a sign of willingness to leave. Israel is leaving Gaza because it was no longer viable, and is clearly intending to annexe the main blocks of West bank illegal settlements, which were, after all created by a transfer of the occupiers citizens into the occupied land, against international law.



Has Israel committed wrongdoings against Palestinians? Sadly, yes. However Israel has never deliberately and intentionally went out to murder innocent Palestinians. Israel’s motives have been consistent – to defend itself and ensure its security. Whereas Palestinian terrorists have acted purely of malice and hatred - an aim to kill innocent people. IDF soldiers don't want to kill innocent people, a suicide bomber meanwhile has the aim of killing the maximum number of innocent people possible.

As I said, people have the information to draw their own conclusions.

Tom Hurndall, Iain Hook, Rachel Corrie, Brian Avery, Imam al Hams, Nouran Deeb are just some of the cases where the machinations of brutal military occupation have become exposed to wide public gaze.

Your denial is predictable - the facts clearly say something else however.

[Dear Wendy]

Your denial is predictable - the facts clearly say something else however.
Thought it was clear by now that it's all a matter of how one choose to view said facts.

[freethepeeps]

Thought it was clear by now that it's all a matter of how one choose to view said facts.

Yes of course one can elect to see things that aren't there - such as this deep seated desire for peace - and one can also elect to see the things that are there - such as ramapant settlement activity.

One can also dispute "facts" that appear misrepresented - and one can see fault with the whole of the other sides argument - whatever.

There are two distinct and opposed narratives, and a lot of people getting hurt whilst the stronger one attempts to create "facts on the ground" - because, at the end of the day, it still believes it can defeat the Palestinians with brute force.

Either Israel is meeting the requirement to halt settlement expansion, or it is not. It so happens that it is not.


:)

[Dear Wendy]

Give it up, and accept that we do not all share your take on things.

You claiming that we emphasise our opinion on something which "isn't there", is merely bullshit. We view the same happenings as you do, from another point of view.
Who are you to tell me that's wrong?

[freethepeeps]

Give it up, and accept that we do not all share your take on things.

You claiming that we emphasise our opinion on something which "isn't there", is merely bullshit. We view the same happenings as you do, from another point of view.
Who are you to tell me that's wrong?

I am at liberty to express my opinion - I have been to Palestine and Israel and spent enough time there in order to understand that there is an ongoing disinformation campign to ensure that things keep boiling over, that kids keep dying, that prime Palestinian land is turned into settlers land.

And, I have a personal stake in this - I have friends who suffer daily away from the cameras, because this has been allowed to go on for so long. And I will speak out against the injustice, and the disinformation as often as I come across it.

There are many Israelis and jewish people who share my view of the situation, and that is a fact as well. Who are you to tell them they are wrong?

One thing is certain - we cannot both be right.


:wave:

[Teh_Gerbil]

One thing is certain - we cannot both be right.

But you are both capable of being wrong.

[freethepeeps]

But you are both capable of being wrong.

This is also true. However in the case of whether Israel is meeting the requirement to cease settlement expansion, there are only two possible answers - yes and no - and therefore one of us is right. It happens to be me.

The same goes for the desire for peace - either there are actions to back up the words, or there are not. There are not.


:)

[Dear Wendy]

I am at liberty to express my opinion - I have been to Palestine and Israel and spent enough time there in order to understand that there is an ongoing disinformation campign to ensure that things keep boiling over, that kids keep dying, that prime Palestinian land is turned into settlers land.

And, I have a personal stake in this - I have friends who suffer daily away from the cameras, because this has been allowed to go on for so long. And I will speak out against the injustice, and the disinformation as often as I come across it.

There are many Israelis and jewish people who share my view of the situation, and that is a fact as well. Who are you to tell them they are wrong?

One thing is certain - we cannot both be right.


:wave:

What a crappy reasoning. You know I can more or less say the exact same thing, just by replacing a few words.
Seriously, claim you are right all you want, just never tell me I am wrong.

[Teh_Gerbil]

This is also true. However in the case of whether Israel is meeting the requirement to cease settlement expansion, there are only two possible answers - yes and no - and therefore one of us is right. It happens to be me.

The same goes for the desire for peace - either there are actions to back up the words, or there are not. There are not.


:)

Well, that argument didn't work. There is never only two possible answers for a question. So, lets put it like this:

Is Israel right to invade and steal Palestines land?

-Yes
-No
-Slightly So
-Slightly Wrong

You see?

And yes, you can both be wrong. For I am right. I win.

FFS, Only History will see who was right or wrong, depending on who wins the Battle. The Victor is ALWAYS right. As was Comrade Stalin! *added Controversy now active*

[freethepeeps]

Well, that argument didn't work. There is never only two possible answers for a question. So, lets put it like this:

Is Israel right to invade and steal Palestines land?

-Yes
-No
-Slightly So
-Slightly Wrong

You see?

And yes, you can both be wrong. For I am right. I win.

FFS, Only History will see who was right or wrong, depending on who wins the Battle. The Victor is ALWAYS right. As was Comrade Stalin! *added Controversy now active*

What a load of nonsense.

Either they are expanding settlements, or they are not. "Slightly" is the same as "yes, they are" ..........

Its gone on for 37 years this occupation, and it is because people did not sit back and wait to see what damage Israel could wreak, that Bush is cuurently warning the Israelis that the settlement expansion is a problem, is threatening to disrupt aid, and is calling for a viable, contiguous Palestinian state.

Besides which, your first response to the delusional one's post was to disagree....

remember?


;)

[morrocan roll]

FTP is actualy offering stuff here and you two are slip sliding away ...'i could say this that and the other' ...then say it please.

[Teh_Gerbil]

I agree with you, yes, but I am trying to point out there are never JUST two answers in a case like this... Its just not as simple in world politics.

Terrorism never goes away. And Israel is wrong. But America is good chums with them. So they get practically a free reign until someone stands up to the USA.

[Jah]

History teaches us that all superpowers over extend...at some point.

[Senor Miguel]

maybe that's because noone likes one world government............yet.

[Namaste]

Uhm to be honest, I know about as much about Judaism as most the people who decide to hate them.

I know the name of the religious book, I know a few stereotypes.

I don't know enough about Jews to hate them, in fact I don't even like seperating people because of their religion... But then maybe people feel the need to label, y'know... Like filing books or papers. Because their minds are weak in areas and that if they haven't labelled things correctly they'll lose them... I think some people need hatred and also reassurance from people who also need something to feel passionate about.

Jews are an easy target.

But isn't there good in everyone?

[Yerascrote]

But isn't there good in everyone?

no one doubts that...i couldn't care less if someone was a Jew or Muslim or Christian...whether you like it or not...Israel is the political representation of the Jewish people and Judaism...whose fault is that...i'm not sure but it's the actions of this political system which actually makes things worse for the Jewish people who are already in a vulnerable position from hatred...i'd be angry at that jacq if i was you...you're more sucseptable to attacks because of what some aggressive power does hundreds if not thousands of miles from your home...i don't care if you think what they're doing is right...their methods of doing this are just sickening...

[Dear Wendy]

no one doubts that...i couldn't care less if someone was a Jew or Muslim or Christian...whether you like it or not...Israel is the political representation of the Jewish people and Judaism...whose fault is that...i'm not sure but it's the actions of this political system which actually makes things worse for the Jewish people who are already in a vulnerable position from hatred...i'd be angry at that jacq if i was you...you're more sucseptable to attacks because of what some aggressive power does hundreds if not thousands of miles from your home...i don't care if you think what they're doing is right...their methods of doing this are just sickening...

For all I know my ancestors went through attacks more horrible than I could ever imagine, without the state of Israel being present.
At least when attacks increase here in Europe today, then I know that should anything happen then I am on the first flight to Israel.

[freethepeeps]

At least when attacks increase here in Europe today, then I know that should anything happen then I am on the first flight to Israel.

Yup, the safest place in the world.......

So, heres a strategy for Sharon.

1) Keep attacking Palestinians
2) Keep stealing their land
3) Call all criticism of your actions "anti-semitism"
4) Watch anti-Israel feelings escalate
5) go back to 1

Eventually Jacqueline will decide that she needs to be in Israel

Mind you, as a word of warning, it won't necessarily keep Israelis in Israel.

[Yerascrote]

For all I know my ancestors went through attacks more horrible than I could ever imagine, without the state of Israel being present.
At least when attacks increase here in Europe today, then I know that should anything happen then I am on the first flight to Israel.

why would you go to Israel...why should you feel you have to move to a country far worse than most others...far far far worse than denmark for that matter.

[Dear Wendy]

Yup, the safest place in the world.......

So, heres a strategy for Sharon.

1) Keep attacking Palestinians
2) Keep stealing their land
3) Call all criticism of your actions "anti-semitism"
4) Watch anti-Israel feelings escalate
5) go back to 1

Eventually Jacqueline will decide that she needs to be in Israel

Mind you, as a word of warning, it won't necessarily keep Israelis in Israel.

Madgenoon, no one says it's the safest place in the world (is the best place though along NYC). But as I see it, if I get attacked on the basis of my connection to Israel, then I might as well be in Israel.

[Dear Wendy]

why would you go to Israel...why should you feel you have to move to a country far worse than most others...far far far worse than denmark for that matter.

Sense of belonging.

[freethepeeps]

, no one says it's the safest place in the world (is the best place though along NYC). But as I see it, if I get attacked on the basis of my connection to Israel, then I might as well be in Israel.

But instead you're moving to London - where the mayor is so "anti-semitic" that Severe Plonker (http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3054506,00.html) thinks that Israel should recall it's ambassador.....

And the way I see it, is you'd be doing yourself and a lot of Jewish and Palestinian people a favour if you didn't support the behaviour that is making Israel into an international pariah - as part of a movement to ensure that people won't be getting attacked on the basis of their links to Israel

:yes:

[Dear Wendy]

Whoa, know something I don't? London is not sure yet.
And why is it your problem where I move to? No one said I'd move to Israel tomorrow. I have plans with my life, and in those plans are included places to go, visit and live. So yes, don't be so quick on my behalf.

P.S. As I told you yesterday, the way you view things, has nothing to do with how I view them. Therefore I recommend you come with your suggestions, to someone who will actually listen to what you have to say.

[freethepeeps]

P.S. As I told you yesterday, the way you view things, has nothing to do with how I view them. Therefore I recommend you come with your suggestions, to someone who will actually listen to what you have to say.

I erm, never imagined for a minute that you would be the only person reading what I wrote ;)

;)

[Dear Wendy]

I erm, never imagined for a minute that you would be the only person reading what I wrote ;)

;)

Then it's weird using "you" after quoting me. You being used in pluralis, would be weird in this context.

[Senor Miguel]

At least when attacks increase here in Europe today, then I know that should anything happen then I am on the first flight to Israel.

:lol: you'd be safer just about anywhere else, c'mon you'd still be surrounded by arabs who resent your presence and dont want you there.........even if america is trying to clear the area as fast as possible, fact is iran has WMDs pointed at Jerusalem, Tel Aviv, Haifa etc and have said they will launch them if america starts the trouble, which is inevitable imo.........

[freethepeeps]

Then it's weird using "you" after quoting me. You being used in pluralis, would be weird in this context.

I don't expect Sharon will be reading my advice to him ..... although I expect he will follow it.


:)

[Dear Wendy]

I don't expect Sharon will be reading my advice to him ..... although I expect he will follow it.


:)

Wtf, you said "you'd be doing yourself and a lot of Jewish and Palestinian people a favour if you didn't support the behaviour that is making Israel into an international pariah". Meaning that if I read this correctly, that the behaviour youøre refering to is the one dictated by Sharon, and which idiot would adress Sharon on a messageboard telling him not to follow himself?

[freethepeeps]

Wtf, you said "you'd be doing yourself and a lot of Jewish and Palestinian people a favour if you didn't support the behaviour that is making Israel into an international pariah". Meaning that if I read this correctly, that the behaviour youøre refering to is the one dictated by Sharon, and which idiot would adress Sharon on a messageboard telling him not to follow himself?

duvdevans comprehension difficulties appear to be infectious......

:wave:

[Dear Wendy]

duvdevans comprehension difficulties appear to be infectious......

:wave:
Maybe it's just you being unable to formulate yourself properly?

[freethepeeps]

Maybe it's just you being unable to formulate yourself properly?

Yes, I'm sure its nothing to do with your lop-sided world view.....


:yippe:

[Dear Wendy]

Yes, I'm sure its nothing to do with your lop-sided world view.....


:yippe:
Something to do with you being completely out of your tree. That's for sure.

[freethepeeps]

Something to do with you being completely out of your tree. That's for sure.

Hmm, well, its been fun but unproductive.

The title of the thread is "The Jewish" and I believed I came in at the point where the delusional one painted israelis as peace loving victims, who only kill kids in an occupied country out of a sense of self preservation......

:yippe:

[alii]

[QUOTE=Zella]Why is there so much bad stuff said about jews?? I dont understand. What were the reasons that so many had to be killed in WW2? I mean I know they didnt have blonde hair and blue eyes but...

The only stereotype about jews I know is that they are tight money wise but thats not exactly a bad thing.

Can someone please explain this for me please cos I'm totally baffed on this one.

The question in my mind is "do you believe in God Almighty?"
answer A: No! Then obviously, in your mind, the Jews are as deluded as all the other peoples on this planet who claim to be following the "true religion".
answer B: Yes, I BELIEVE! In which case logic dictates that if you make a pledge to God, which you then break, you would of course expect a punishment, right or wrong?! I am an English ex-ignostic ex-Church of England (but left cos i didnt believe in it) Muslim convert. I know alarm bells are ringing at moment. Oh God, what can this man have to say!?! The Qur'an claims to be from the God of Prophet Abraham, Prophet Moses, Prophet Ezra etc. I know you dont believe that but bear with me. The author of this book raises some very interesting questions about Christians, Jews, Pagans and every other type of ideological person you can think of, and asks questions aimed directly at these groups, one of them being the people who God says He prefered above all of mankind in their heyday (ie the Jews). He says that He took an oath from them which they swore to on the right side of the mountain (mount Sinai) to the prophet Moses and Aaron (pbut) and one of which was not turning out people from their land unjustly. what remains of this mighty oath which the Children of Israel took is in Exodus (i think!). The quote from the Qur'an goes as follows:
"And remember when We took a covenant from the Children of Israel saying: Worship none but Allah alone and be dutiful to your parents, and to kindred, and to orphans and Al-Masakin (the poor) and speak good to the people, and perform As-Salat (the prayers) and give the Zakat (the poor due). Then you slid back, except a few of you, while you are backsliders. And remember when We took your covenant saying: Shed not the blood of your people, nor turn out your people from their dwellings. Then, this you ratified and to this you bear witness. After this, it is you who kill one another and drive out a party of you from their homes, assist their enemies against them, in sin and trangression. And if they cometo you as captives, you ransom them, although their expulsion was forbidden to you."
HERE IS THE QUESTION:
"Do you then believe in part of the Scripture (Torah) and reject the rest? Then what is the recompense of those who do so among you, except disgrace in the life of this world, and on the Day of Resurrection they shall be consigned to the most greivous torment. And Allah is not unaware of what you do. Those are they who have bought the life of this world at the price of the Hereafter. Their torment shall not be lightened nor shall they be helped."

In other word, if you stick to what you swore to (laws and commandments of yours and my prophets) then you wont be hated and treated badly. this is a punishment by God until you stop doing what you swore not to do.
If you take an oath with God not to earn interest, to steal, etc and then you break it, do you think that punishment will not come, and will continue to turn up till you stop it?
the banks are owned by Jews (as far as i am aware-please correct me if i am wrong! I mean that sincerely) and they force people to earn interest, yes or no? interest is banned by the prophets of old and prophet of yester year on account of the fact that it makes the rich richer, and the poor poorer than ever before. The prophet said this is wrong! The British have given freedom to many countries 40 years ago, and many of these countries are 72 times poorer now than they were when we gave them their freedom on account of the interest being racked up. do you think that is right or wrong?
Another question He raises is: Why then did you kill the Prophets of God aforetime, if you indeed have been believers?
It is a well known fact, openly admitted by Jews that they killed their Prophets (pbut), like the Prophet Zacharias or Prophet John the Baptist (pbut), and others. why would you continue to honour those who have the blood of the Prophets on their hands. If a prophet is sent by God, and you kill him, you think that a punishment wont come?
Please respond to this, cos i dont know any Jews except one in Hyde Park, and i have never asked these two questions, and have deliberately signed on to a site hopefully with religious Jews on it so as i can ask them these questions and can have a reply. this is not meant to be malicious, and i apologise if i have offended anyone. thats not the intention, but merely to have a debate.
thank you so much,
yours sincerely,
ali :)

[Yerascrote]

^^ ^^

just sounds like a load of religious waffle to me...the more i think about it...the more religion seems like a load of fucking wank material...how can you believe in this shite...yes...god..higher being maybe but all this quoran,torah bible shite is just ludacris in the highest order...yes they may have good teachings in them but come on...wtf is half of it all about and why do many sitll believe in it...

[alii]

God does not exist, we all came about by mere chance, right?

fine, then kindly answer me the following problems with this very silly theory.
Point 1
Amino Acids & Proteans
1)There are two different categories of amino acid = "right-handed" ones and "left-handed" ones. The difference between the two is that the mirror-symmetry between their 3-dimentional structures, which is similar to that of a person's right and left hands.
2)All plants and animals on this planet are made up of left-handed amino acids. If a single "right-handed" amino acid is attatched to the structure of the protein, it is rendered useless. Bacteria exposed to a right-handed amino acid are immediately destroyed.
3)Proteans are giant molecules cosisting of smaller units called "amino acids" that are arranged in a particular sequence in certain quantities and stuctures. The simplest protein is composed of 50 amino acids. The are others than contain thousands.
4)The absensce, addition, or replacement of a single amino acid in the structure of a protein causes the protein to become a useless molecular heap. Every amino acid has to be in the right place and in the right order.
5)The average-sized protein molecule composed of 288 amino acids, and contains twelve different types of amino acids can be arranged in 10-300 different ways. It can only be arranged in that order or else it is totally useless.
6)A single protein on its own means nothing. The smallest bacteria ever discovered, Mycoplasma hominis H39, contains 600 "types" of proteins
7)"Left-handed" proteins -each of the 20 different types of amino acids in the composition of a "left-handed" protein must be "left-handed".
8)It is not enough for amino acids to be arranged in the correct numbers, sequences, and required 3-d structures. Formation of a protein also requires that amino acid molecules with more than one arm be linked to each other only in certain ways. Such a bond is called a "peptide bond". Amino acids can make up different bonds with each other, but proteins are made up exclusively of amino acids joined in "peptide" formation. For this to happen at random is unthinkable. For example, in a haemoglobin molecule, which is vital molecule, there are 574 amino acids. there are billions of red blood cells in your body (literally), and in each one there are 280,000,000 (280 million) haemoglobin molecules.

Point 2
Living Creatures
All living creatures must be composed of proteins made up of entirely "left-handed" amino acids. Evolution says that we came about by "coincidence" or "chance". In order for a "meaningful" protein to be generated, it is not enough for the amino acids to be present in a particular number and sequence, and to be combined together in the right 3-dimensional design. Additionally, all these amino acids have to be left-handed; not a single one can be right-handed, or else it wil be entirely useless.
Mathematically, anything more than 10-50 is regarded as having a "0" percentage chance of occurring. For a average sized protein consisting of 400 amino acids being selected only from the left-handed amino acids, we would be left with a 10-120 chance of happening.

Conclusion:
1)Probability of each amino acid being chosen correctly among these 20 types = 1/20
2)Probability of each of all those 500 amino acids being chosen correctly= 1/20500= 1 chance in 10650
3)Two categories of amino acid. Probability of only one amino acid being "left-handed"= 1/2
4)Probability of all those 500 amino acids being "left-handed"= 1/2500= 1chance in 10150
5) Propbability fo 2 amino acids being combined in a "peptide bond"=1/2
6)Probability of all the 500 amino acids all combining with peptide bonds= 1/2499 = 1 chance in 10150
Therefore probability of life= 10-650 x 10-650 X 10-150=10-950

Therefore...
Anyone who says this is likely (ie Evolution and life on earth being mere chance) is far more of an idiot than someone who beleives that we were created (ie there is a Creator).

From what i understand a scientific person believes in science and cold, hard reason of the mind, and not the pathetic weak-minded faith of the heart stuff often given to believers in a creator. They are logical and intelligent, and when presented with a strong argument totally backed by science and reason and another argument backed by nothing but conjecture, they will naturally opt for the more probable more likely argument. yes or no? therefore, i challenge anyone who knows anything at all about the body to tell me that it created itself! Anyone who does is quite simply mad or tremendously stupid! Pick up a medical book and try reading about the liver for example and then tell me it just "turned up by accident".

Point 3
Protein synthesis in NOT POSSIBLE IN WATER!
When combining to form a protein, amino acids form a special bond called a "peptide bond". A water molecule is released during the formation of this peptide bond. This fact directly refutes the evolutionist explanation that primordial life originated in water, because according to the "Chatelier pricinciple" in chemistry, it is not possible for a reaction that releases water (condensation reaction) to take place in a hydrous enviroment (ie in water). According to the "Chatelier principle", the least likely of all chemical reactions to occur is this one. You are more likely to spontaneously combust when coming in contact with wood (ie sitting down)! The evolutionists have tried saying that the amino acids were thrown out of the water and landed on dry ground away from the water so that the condensation reaction was able to take place. This is accepted by very few people on account of the fact that the amino acids would have been burnt to a crisp due to the primordal conditions of the world being rather hot to put it mildly (as in steaming lava!)

Point 4
DNA & RNA
1)The most complex structure ever encountered which we barely really understand.
2)There are 100 trillion cells in our bodies, containing a blueprint for the construction of the human body. No two humans are the same, and the DNA is the information regarding the characteristics of a person from physical apperance to the structure of the inner organs. All of it is recorded in the DNA.
3)Four types called A, T, G and C. The structural differences of people depend on the order. The sequential order of the letters in the DNA determines the structure of a human being down to the most miniscule details.
4)The DNA determines the height, the eye, hair and skin colours, and the DNA in a single cell also contains the design of the 206 bones, the 600 muscles, the 100 billion nerve cells (neurons), 1,000 trillion connections between the neurons of the brain, 97,000 kilometers of veins, and the 100 trillion cells of the human body :crazyeyes

Conclusion:
The cell is a thousandth of a millimetre in length. The nucleus of this weany cell is far smaller still, and all this information is inside the DNA inside the nucleus. If we were to write down all the information stored in one of these DNA molecules it would take up goodness knows how many books. Our most complex computers which are so proud of are pathetic in comparison.
A medium protein of 300 amino acids would have a DNA gene controlling it of around 1,000 nucleotides in its chain. We did not make this, and we have little understanding of it even now.
I rest my case, thank you so much for those who do not beleive in God Almighty.
Yours sincerely,
Ali :naughty:

PS Charles Darwin's "The Theory of Evolution" is exactly that: a theory, as in assumption, as in mere guess work, as in entirely refuted by modern science.

The problem for evolutionist is that all scientific knowledge refutes their rubbish, but they cling to it because otherwise they are forced to make hard choices. If we did not evolve, we must have been created. Then you have to start choosing a religion. Oh God no!!!!

[Blagsta]

Oh fuck, not again. :rolleyes:

[marv]

[QUOTE=Zella]Why is there so much bad stuff said about jews?? I dont understand. What were the reasons that so many had to be killed in WW2? I mean I know they didnt have blonde hair and blue eyes but...

The only stereotype about jews I know is that they are tight money wise but thats not exactly a bad thing.

Can someone please explain this for me please cos I'm totally baffed on this one.

The question in my mind is "do you believe in God Almighty?"
answer A: No! Then obviously, in your mind, the Jews are as deluded as all the other peoples on this planet who claim to be following the "true religion".
answer B: Yes, I BELIEVE! In which case logic dictates that if you make a pledge to God, which you then break, you would of course expect a punishment, right or wrong?! I am an English ex-ignostic ex-Church of England (but left cos i didnt believe in it) Muslim convert. I know alarm bells are ringing at moment. Oh God, what can this man have to say!?! The Qur'an claims to be from the God of Prophet Abraham, Prophet Moses, Prophet Ezra etc. I know you dont believe that but bear with me. The author of this book raises some very interesting questions about Christians, Jews, Pagans and every other type of ideological person you can think of, and asks questions aimed directly at these groups, one of them being the people who God says He prefered above all of mankind in their heyday (ie the Jews). He says that He took an oath from them which they swore to on the right side of the mountain (mount Sinai) to the prophet Moses and Aaron (pbut) and one of which was not turning out people from their land unjustly. what remains of this mighty oath which the Children of Israel took is in Exodus (i think!). The quote from the Qur'an goes as follows:
"And remember when We took a covenant from the Children of Israel saying: Worship none but Allah alone and be dutiful to your parents, and to kindred, and to orphans and Al-Masakin (the poor) and speak good to the people, and perform As-Salat (the prayers) and give the Zakat (the poor due). Then you slid back, except a few of you, while you are backsliders. And remember when We took your covenant saying: Shed not the blood of your people, nor turn out your people from their dwellings. Then, this you ratified and to this you bear witness. After this, it is you who kill one another and drive out a party of you from their homes, assist their enemies against them, in sin and trangression. And if they cometo you as captives, you ransom them, although their expulsion was forbidden to you."
HERE IS THE QUESTION:
"Do you then believe in part of the Scripture (Torah) and reject the rest? Then what is the recompense of those who do so among you, except disgrace in the life of this world, and on the Day of Resurrection they shall be consigned to the most greivous torment. And Allah is not unaware of what you do. Those are they who have bought the life of this world at the price of the Hereafter. Their torment shall not be lightened nor shall they be helped."

In other word, if you stick to what you swore to (laws and commandments of yours and my prophets) then you wont be hated and treated badly. this is a punishment by God until you stop doing what you swore not to do.
If you take an oath with God not to earn interest, to steal, etc and then you break it, do you think that punishment will not come, and will continue to turn up till you stop it?
the banks are owned by Jews (as far as i am aware-please correct me if i am wrong! I mean that sincerely) and they force people to earn interest, yes or no? interest is banned by the prophets of old and prophet of yester year on account of the fact that it makes the rich richer, and the poor poorer than ever before. The prophet said this is wrong! The British have given freedom to many countries 40 years ago, and many of these countries are 72 times poorer now than they were when we gave them their freedom on account of the interest being racked up. do you think that is right or wrong?
Another question He raises is: Why then did you kill the Prophets of God aforetime, if you indeed have been believers?
It is a well known fact, openly admitted by Jews that they killed their Prophets (pbut), like the Prophet Zacharias or Prophet John the Baptist (pbut), and others. why would you continue to honour those who have the blood of the Prophets on their hands. If a prophet is sent by God, and you kill him, you think that a punishment wont come?
Please respond to this, cos i dont know any Jews except one in Hyde Park, and i have never asked these two questions, and have deliberately signed on to a site hopefully with religious Jews on it so as i can ask them these questions and can have a reply. this is not meant to be malicious, and i apologise if i have offended anyone. thats not the intention, but merely to have a debate.
thank you so much,
yours sincerely,
ali :)

You have to much time on your hands i suggest you get a hobby or something