NHS Politics Football

[stargalaxy]

Story (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/4316791.stm)

Dear oh dear. The row over Margaret Dixon, the woman whose shoulder operation has been cancelled seven times, turns into a political fight. New Labour and the Tories accuse the other of lying. I despair. Isn't this typical of a government which has failed to reform the NHS and has nothing to say, and an opposition with an equally lamentable record on the health service?

[Aladdin]

It is a sorry spectacle. But I put much more blame on the tories than on labour. The way the Leader of the Opposition has 'bravely' taken up the case of this woman (as if he gave a fuck about anyone else, at any other time) and pretended one isolated case is "proof" the NHS is a shambles is cynical and disgusting.

The tories trying to be the champions of the NHS? What next? King Herod lecturing mothers about childcare?

[Flashman's Ghost]

My wife just gave birth to twins and I have to say the NHS has been fantastic - I simply cannot recognise the horror stories in the care and support we got.

That said i went off a motorbike under the Tories and the NHS was fantastic then as well...

[Aladdin]

Congratulations! :)

[morrocan roll]

Story (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/4316791.stm)

Dear oh dear. The row over Margaret Dixon, the woman whose shoulder operation has been cancelled seven times, turns into a political fight. New Labour and the Tories accuse the other of lying. I despair. Isn't this typical of a government which has failed to reform the NHS and has nothing to say, and an opposition with an equally lamentable record on the health service?
i have to disagree.
the nhs has improved dramaticly.
when the tories were in power the waiting list was disgusting.
the tories new plans are to take much needed cash out of the system to pay privately ...they are saying use this semi privatised manner or wait and wait and wait somemore!
is that how to convince the public the nhs is safe in their hands?
the nhs is so huge it will never be perfect.
as a regular user of their services for my not well daughter over the years i have nothing but praise for it.
no ...it's not been perfect ...yes there have been let downs.
your not old enough to rremember the disgusting mess the tories caused.
do not trust howard! look at his track record as a job refference and you wouldn't be giving him the job.

[stargalaxy]

the nhs has improved dramaticly. when the tories were in power the waiting list was disgusting. the tories new plans are to take much needed cash out of the system to pay privately ...they are saying use this semi privatised manner or wait and wait and wait somemore! is that how to convince the public the nhs is safe in their hands?

The NHS is so huge it will never be perfect. As a regular user of their services for my not well daughter over the years i have nothing but praise for it. no ...it's not been perfect ...yes there have been let downs. DO NOT TRUST HOWARD! (deliberately emphasised by Stargalaxy) look at his track record as a job refference and you wouldn't be giving him the job. I have to admit to taking a somewhat overly critical line of the government initially earlier. Things are definitely improving in the service, my main concern at the moment is not with waiting lists, but rather with the horrendous MRSA bug. Maybe it worries me as it killed my aunty, and I don't want others to suffer the same fate.

And no, I don't trust Michael Howard. Where Anne Widdecombe said there's "something of the night" about him, I have to agree.

[Kentish]

Talk about anaesthetic risk. :eek:

No wonder they've cancelled her so many times - no surgeon wants her death on their record.

[Man Of Kent]

Talk about anaesthetic risk. :eek:

No wonder they've cancelled her so many times - no surgeon wants her death on their record.

Funnily enough that was the question I asked, not about the cancellations aspect.

Why would anyone consider operating on her, for aroutine surgery, when the risk to her life is so great?

Or, why she would want it?

[Man Of Kent]

As for the initial point, the sooner that politicians get out of the way the better.

About time the Bank of England approach was taken.

[BlackArab]

My wife just gave birth to twins and I have to say the NHS has been fantastic - I simply cannot recognise the horror stories in the care and support we got.

That said i went off a motorbike under the Tories and the NHS was fantastic then as well...

:thumb: Congratulations to you and your wife.

I bet she made you sell the bike though. :yes: :D

[Kentish]

Or, why she would want it?
Surgery is a panacea. Have you not been keeping up with the medical soaps? :rolleyes:

;)

[Man Of Kent]

Of course, how stupid of me.

besides, she has a 50% chance of surviving...

[BumbleBee]

I was just discussing this very issue at work today. The general consensus amongst staff at work including nurses, GP and admin staff, as well as patient's, is that the NHS should stop being used as a political tool. It's never going to happen though.

Personally if I were awaiting surgery and the same thing happened the last thing I'd want is to be plastered all over the papers and media.

[Kermit]

Health will always be used as a political tool. We have an independent MP solely elected on a health issue, and we have a Prime Minister who will discuss confidential medical records of vociferous opponents in Parliament (no, Blair, I haven't forgotten how you will use any means to destroy an opponent).

As for the whinging bat in question, why is her shoulder more important than someone with a life-threatening illness. GWST's sister has had to wait monthsw for a critical illness bed, and she's got a severe heart defect; all this whining old bat has is a dodgy shoulder, the poor diddums.

[morrocan roll]

I have to admit to taking a somewhat overly critical line of the government initially earlier. Things are definitely improving in the service, my main concern at the moment is not with waiting lists, but rather with the horrendous MRSA bug. Maybe it worries me as it killed my aunty, and I don't want others to suffer the same fate.

And no, I don't trust Michael Howard. Where Anne Widdecombe said there's "something of the night" about him, I have to agree.
the thing is ...i'm a front line user of the nhs ...have been for years now so ...this is not a point of view but genuine experience.
oh if only we could stop the politicians sticking their noses in ...who said bank of england?
i think i agree with that.

[BlackArab]

the thing is ...i'm a front line user of the nhs ...have been for years now so ...this is not a point of view but genuine experience.
oh if only we could stop the politicians sticking their noses in ...who said bank of england?
i think i agree with that.

and for schools :yes:

[morrocan roll]

and for schools :yes:
well i tell you what BA ...at least the rain doesn't come through the cielings any more as it did in the tory years of neglect.

[BlackArab]

well i tell you what BA ...at least the rain doesn't come through the cielings any more as it did in the tory years of neglect.

Still too much political point-scoring and not enough commonsense.

Great example of Labours educational spending

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/education/4311791.stm

'virtually no market research..' :confused:

[Kentish]

well i tell you what BA ...at least the rain doesn't come through the cielings any more as it did in the tory years of neglect.
Oh it does, but the extra New Labour funding has provided buckets to collect said rainwater.

[Kentish]

About time the Bank of England approach was taken.
As soon as it becomes depoliticised, it will start to be broken apart and privatised bit by bit. And the "postcode lottery" will only get worse. I'm still undecided on Foundation hospitals.

[BeckyBoo]

do not trust howard!

I trust none of them..they all tell us what we want to hear but do they follow it through ? do they shit :mad:

[Man Of Kent]

As soon as it becomes depoliticised, it will start to be broken apart and privatised bit by bit.

I'm not so sure, depends on how you do it. I think that there could be an arguement for running it more like a business allowing for five year plans which don#t require financial balance every year. At the moment that is stiffling innovation because we cannot afford the losses a change will make in year one even though we might make savings in years two and three...

And the "postcode lottery" will only get worse.

Can't escape it I'm afraid. Different demands in different areas...

I'm still undecided on Foundation hospitals.

I'm not. Big mistake IMHO

[Kentish]

I'm not so sure, depends on how you do it. I think that there could be an arguement for running it more like a business allowing for five year plans which don#t require financial balance every year. At the moment that is stiffling innovation because we cannot afford the losses a change will make in year one even though we might make savings in years two and three...
Oh, I understand how unbelievably bureaucratic the whole system is and about the pots of money that are allocated to certain things and cannot be transferred even if they're not used by the end of the financial year. The obstetricians I was working with in January were trying to buy a 3D scanner and I overheard a discussion about which budgets they could plunder to pay for the thing. It was bloody ridiculous imho - ten grand from O&G, ten grand from neonates, ten grand from the education budget etc etc.

But I think there is scope for improvements in the current system without full political independence. Politicians are accountable to the electorate and all taxpayers who contribute to paying for the NHS. This is why I think there would be no barrier to privatisation if it was depoliticised.
Can't escape it I'm afraid. Different demands in different areas...
Yes but the way the system works at the moment with DGHs and tertiary centres means that hospitals may lose their incentive to specialise and improve if their focus was on profit rather than clinical outcomes. This is why the Tories' 'choice' policy will only ever be a gimmick - how many patients would really have a choice? Certainly not those who make the biggest drain on health resources. The upwardly mobile classes already have the choice to go private - choosing between NHS hospitals is simply not a realistic expectation - hospitals themselves would have to start advertising and bribing patients to come with gimmicks. Outside of London, patients go to their local hospital and that's how it should be. This is healthcare for goodness sake, not bleedin' weekend breaks.

Patients don't even know what medications they put into their bodies every day - how are they going to make a truly informed and objective decision on which hospital to attend? It also has implications for medical education, but I won't go there...
I'm not. Big mistake IMHO
Interesting. Why so?

[wheresmyplacebo]

I have to admit to taking a somewhat overly critical line of the government initially earlier. Things are definitely improving in the service, my main concern at the moment is not with waiting lists, but rather with the horrendous MRSA bug. Maybe it worries me as it killed my aunty, and I don't want others to suffer the same fate.

And no, I don't trust Michael Howard. Where Anne Widdecombe said there's "something of the night" about him, I have to agree.


mrsa is hitting every westernised country hard if u didnt know

only way of reducing it in nhs wuld either be to stop thr contracting out of cleaning and make hospotals DIRECTLY responsible, or to stop nhs trust contracting out to cheAPEST BIDDER NO MATTER WHAT RISKS

opps caps

[Man Of Kent]

The obstetricians I was working with in January were trying to buy a 3D scanner and I overheard a discussion about which budgets they could plunder to pay for the thing. It was bloody ridiculous imho - ten grand from O&G, ten grand from neonates, ten grand from the education budget etc etc.

That's usually where I come in, I'm good at finding tenuous links to pots of cash. The system really sucks when it comes to that. We tie money up nehind a grand scheme and miss the fact that by changing something in theatres (for example) we will actually hit the A&E targets or that by investing in a community scheme will actually achieve it too...

But I think there is scope for improvements in the current system without full political independence. Politicians are accountable to the electorate and all taxpayers who contribute to paying for the NHS. This is why I think there would be no barrier to privatisation if it was depoliticised.

That barrier has already gone. There is nothing to stop a group of surgeons only working privately and selling their wares to the NHS. Joys of the Choose & Book agenda.

But I still think that it's possible to remove the centralised political process and to make it more locally focussed. That is the real problem IMHO. Too much is decided by a cnetral body without reference to local needs.

Yes but the way the system works at the moment with DGHs and tertiary centres means that hospitals may lose their incentive to specialise and improve if their focus was on profit rather than clinical outcomes.

My concern is that we will get more specialisation and less focus on general work, with the vulnerable "expensive" patients losing out. That's one of my concerns about Foundation status.

This is why the Tories' 'choice' policy will only ever be a gimmick - how many patients would really have a choice? Certainly not those who make the biggest drain on health resources. The upwardly mobile classes already have the choice to go private - choosing between NHS hospitals is simply not a realistic expectation - hospitals themselves would have to start advertising and bribing patients to come with gimmicks. Outside of London, patients go to their local hospital and that's how it should be. This is healthcare for goodness sake, not bleedin' weekend breaks.

Absolutely, anyone who votes Tory on the basis of this policy needs to become part of a euthanasia policy as far as I am concerned. The ony outcome from this policy is less moeny in the NHS for those who actually need it. If you can afford private treatment, go private don't get subsidy. How many insurance companies will benefit from this?

Patients don't even know what medications they put into their bodies every day - how are they going to make a truly informed and objective decision on which hospital to attend?

The decisions will be made on what is important to them and that worries me. I'm concerned that waits and locality will be more important than the level of care they will receive...

It also has implications for medical education, but I won't go there...

Indeed. Even more so as more work is supposed to be carried out in Community/Primary Care settings. How many junior get exposure to minor lumps and bumps these day? Yet at one time it was their grounding in surgery...

Interesting. Why so?

I just cannot see an upside. Certainly each of the PCTs attached to foundations have experienced huge problems wil "gaming" where the Trust looks after it's own interests whilst the PCT needs to look at so much more. From a Trust perspective it better to pull more of the cheap and quick cases in...

There are also the contracts, the service level agreements, which carry more weight. One of the problems facing PCT is manpower. An acute trust has more man-time to devote to making these agreemets work for them.

There is the right to intellectual property. Currently this is shared, good practice guidance etc, Foundation Hospitals have the right to charge...

[Kentish]

There is the right to intellectual property. Currently this is shared, good practice guidance etc, Foundation Hospitals have the right to charge...
I didn't know that. But then I found this website (http://www.ashfordstpeters.nhs.uk/intranet/Ashford---/Publicatio/About-the-/index.htm). It seems the Freedom of Information Act may supersede any right to intelletual property?

Regardless of the intrincate details, generally I think the NHS should be providing top class care to everyone who needs it, and regardless of wealth or social status. I think neither Foundations nor purely locally acountable Trusts/PCTs can achieve that uniformity. I can understand the arguments for independence, and agree with the goal in principle - I just can't see it being the fairest way of allocating the necessarily limited resources available.

[stargalaxy]

I'm bringing this thread back for a reason: the woman involved has finally had her operation! Strange how extensive media attention and political rows can force hospitals to get on with things, isn't it? :rolleyes:

Click here for story. (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/health/4357621.stm)

[Kentish]

Glad to hear she survived the operation. The woman's enormous.

[Man Of Kent]

I'm bringing this thread back for a reason: the woman involved has finally had her operation! Strange how extensive media attention and political rows can force hospitals to get on with things, isn't it? :rolleyes:

If it was done because of the news story then you should be asking which other patient didn't get the care they deserved as a result.

It's possible, of course, that the operation would have happened today anyway. Note that it wasn't an instant response but still took two weeks for it to happen...