Schoolgirl Wins Muslim Gown Case

[girl with sharp teeth]

.

[budda]

It annoys me when people do this, I dont mean you in particular, but, well you could add your thoughts rather than just the story.

"Rather it was a consequence of an atmosphere that has been created in Western societies post 9/11, an atmosphere in which Islam has been made a target for vilification in the name of the 'war on terror'," she said.

Well thats rubbish for a start, I'm not sure about this, because do you draw the line at the full gown? It doesnt look over the top from the picture, I'm not sure how different it is from what she was allowed.

[girl with sharp teeth]

.

[budda]

I know, and I do remember your views from earlier debates about this, but I stand had to be made and it was against you, sorry.

I can see your point, its a tough one, I'd like to see these kinds of problems going to mediation, its easy for her to think 'its because I am Muslim' and for the school to think 'she's just being difficult'.

[BlackArab]

I can see your point, its a tough one, I'd like to see these kinds of problems going to mediation, its easy for her to think 'its because I am Muslim' and for the school to think 'she's just being difficult'.

It is because since 9/11 and following events there has been an increase in Islamophobia and a negative perception of Islam and Muslims in Britain. I'm not pointing the finger of blame just saying how it is generally.

The problem being that this can itself result in a defensive mindset that can matters like this to be viewed as part of this 'climate of fear' especially in the mind of a teenage girl.

[budda]

Not really J, this is quite a severe version of the headscarf which she would be allowed to wear.

[wheresmyplacebo]

Haven't sihks been allowed to wear turbans for like, ages? Surely it's just the same thing?

turbans are the main part of the religion, to do with the hair and all which sikhs value, theyre allowed

and for muslims, many would argue that headscaraves are part of it, and theyre covered by uniform too, even in this case


this girl wants a burkha which is almost entirely a cultural thing and if anyone can find me the koran line that corrects this im wrong, otherwise this girl was breaking the rules, and there was something that catered perfectly fine for muslims apart from her, thus it was right to exclude her

[Man Of Kent]

I'm pleased that she won, as I said in the thread when this case first came to light.

[wheresmyplacebo]

I'm pleased that she won, as I said in the thread when this case first came to light.

may i ask why?

what basic rights were infringed upon that are no different to any uniform system, her religion was perfectly catered for, and yet she still choose to kick up a stink cause of her own CULTURAL beliefs

what about if someone came along and said "its my cultural/political belief to wear no uniform"

[Man Of Kent]

Then I'd say to that person "Prove it".

This girl was going to be smartly dressed, was going to wear school colours and I fail to see why the school had a problem with that.

They need to remember that they are there to educate. IMHO.

[wheresmyplacebo]

Then I'd say to that person "Prove it".

This girl was going to be smartly dressed, was going to wear school colours and I fail to see why the school had a problem with that.

They need to remember that they are there to educate. IMHO.

because the school doesnt have school colours, it has a school uniform, theres a big difference, they made allowances in their uniform to accomodate religions, she just decided she was special :rolleyes:

[girl with sharp teeth]

.

[Man Of Kent]

No she didn't. She felt that her religion asked more of her than the school provided.

As you say, the school has a uniform policy, so why didn't it include this given that it's not abnormal?

[girl with sharp teeth]

.

[wheresmyplacebo]

No she didn't. She felt that her religion asked more of her than the school provided.

As you say, the school has a uniform policy, so why didn't it include this given that it's not abnormal?


because her religion asks this, but it is in no way a necessity, the burkha is almost a necessity and is covered, however the hijab isnt, her school is 80% muslim and not one other student complained about it - there is also such a thing as "when in rome try do as the romans do"...

she just wanted to be different, annoying cow :banghead:

i want someone to claim their right to not wear any uniform as it conflicts with their cultural beliefs of no-uniform :thumb:

[Man Of Kent]

In that case MOK, are you in favour of other children eschewing their standard school uniforms, as long as they are 'smartly dressed' and wear school colours?

Yep.

Because it's a health and safety issue.

I'm sorry?

How so?

Because the school is trying to prevent competitions between it's pupils.

So, this school doesn't do sports, or have exams either then? What happens in sixth form, do they all wear uniform? What about when the child enters University...

because her religion asks this, but it is in no way a necessity

And school uniform is?

[Man Of Kent]

she just wanted to be different, annoying cow :banghead:

What is so bad about not wanting to conform?

[wheresmyplacebo]

What is so bad about not wanting to conform?

nothing but wasting legal aid money and courts time on this, is of detriment to me :mad:

and its oaky for you not to agree with school uniform in principle, but why should this girl be given special treatment in your opinion? do you admit she is being given special treatment?

and there is nothing wrong with competiton, however this is pointless competition, and schools with uniform tend to do better ;) and at university youre expected to behave like an adult ;)

[Kentish]

What is so bad about not wanting to conform?
If you don't like uniforms, go to a school without a uniform policy.

The first change made in failing schools is usually a strict uniform policy. I believe uniforms are appropriate in schools.

[Man Of Kent]

and its oaky for you not to agree with school uniform in principle, but why should this girl be given special treatment in your opinion? do you admit she is being given special treatment?

She shouldn't be given "special treatment", she shouldn't have needed to take this court.

These rules should never have been in place in the first instance IMHO.

and at university youre expected to behave like an adult ;)

But not at school?

[girl with sharp teeth]

.

[Man Of Kent]

Then you are not arguing from a neutral point, are you?

Nope.

Just thinking back to my own science lessons for one example - long hair had to be tied up, shirt sleeves had to be rolled back and loose clothing secured to prevent accidents. It would have been impossible in the clothing that this girl wants to wear. I believe the school also stated it might safety issue with regards to being able to move quickly in an emergency although I'm not certain.

I'm sorry, but the emergency comment has previously been applied to wheelchair users, it wasn't acceptable then, and it isn't now.

As for the safety of science, I agree that care is needed, but I guess that sport would be a problem too.

That is not what I meant at all, and you know it. Tne competition in question was 'whose the 'best' muslim' and there were fears that girls who did not wish to waer such restrictive clothing would be coerced into it.

Peer pressure?

[girl with sharp teeth]

.

[Man Of Kent]

My own sister is in a wheelchair and I like knowing that somebody has had to consider the fact she won't find it as easy to get out of school in the event of an emergency because it means they are better prepared.

.. and that couldn't happen in this instance?

In part. Family pressure I was mainly thinking of.

.. and that's the school's responsibility is it?

[girl with sharp teeth]

.

[Man Of Kent]

My sister has a dedicated helper with her full time to help her with everything. I doubt very much whether the school would get any funding to help this girl have an assistant.

Would it need to, we aren't talking about disability here...

In this day and age it is.

Perhaps that is the issue we should address, rather than put the onus on the school...?

[Fiend_85]

Because the school is trying to prevent competitions between it's pupils.

Sorry, had to jump on this. But preventing competition is a ridiculous thing to do. End of.

[Man Of Kent]

Having said that I've searched far and wide trying to find the components of a light saber and I can't find them anywhere... Not even on Google ffs!

You need to find a StarWars discussion board.

I was looking for spoilers for the next film and there was a couple of saddos talking about various types of lightsaber, as if they were real FFS. I mean, I love the Star Wars film, but get a life people...

[Kentish]

Sorry, had to jump on this. But preventing competition is a ridiculous thing to do. End of.
The whole point of a uniform is that everyone is equal and no one is under pressure to wear designer clothes to school. In this case, the muslim girls would not feel under pressure to wear similar attire. I think that's what GWST means.

[Man Of Kent]

The whole point of a uniform is that everyone is equal

Even though they aren't.

[Fiend_85]

The whole point of a uniform is that everyone is equal and no one is under pressure to wear designer clothes to school. In this case, the muslim girls would not feel under pressure to wear similar attire. I think that's what GWST means.
Which seems bizarre to me, because there was more competition when I was younger to see who could pull of a shitty looking uniform the best, than when we were older and could wear whatever.

Maybe it was age, but I'm not wholey convinced of that.

[Born Slippy]

Most women, it is well known, wear those ugly cloths - "jilbabs" as a gesture of defiance. This case further proves that fact.

"it was a consequence of an atmosphere that has been created in Western societies post 9/11, an atmosphere in which Islam has been made a target for vilification in the name of the 'war on terror'."

This is complete rubbish. She is using this case as a way to perpetuate here warped, delusional fantasies and make us look like "rasict, prejudiced bigots".(Her words)

[Kentish]

Even though they aren't.
:confused:

[Kentish]

Which seems bizarre to me, because there was more competition when I was younger to see who could pull of a shitty looking uniform the best, than when we were older and could wear whatever.

Maybe it was age, but I'm not wholey convinced of that.
Depends on the school I guess. But that's the argument for uniforms.

[Man Of Kent]

Uniforms don't make people equal, just look alike.

The poorer students will still not have the same quality, are more likely to have second hand etc.

It doesn't achieve that aim at all.

What it does is make the children indentifiable, and makes them conform. The same principle is used in prison... ;)

[Kentish]

What it does is make the children indentifiable, and makes them conform. The same principle is used in prison... ;)
Discipline. There you go - a second argument.

[Man Of Kent]

So sixth form, university and work are illdisciplined places are they?

What about out of school, do kids put on "normal" clothing a suuddenly turn from angels into demons?

[girl with sharp teeth]

.

[girl with sharp teeth]

.

[ShyBoy]

It's a way of exerting authority, and thats a good thing. Come to my school where there's no uniform and the behaviour and just general 'manners' are awful - when you teach people to wear uniform they are conforming, and you can teach them to respect authority then. But sometimes it's not such a good thing.

Really depends on the situation, but anyway - to the girl, I think the school did the right thing. When Jack Straw went to India he wore a Turban in the temples etc, part of what can be argued as their 'uniform;. If he had said due to his cultural beleifs he's going to wear a bowler hat instead it just undermines the respect between them.

I think this girl probably feels like she is a huge victim, but at the end of the day it's such a trivial thing she's just setting out to embarress her school.

[Jazza]

I'd get sent home if I didn't turn up in full uniform so if this girl repeatedly broke the rules then I don't see a problem. The whole point of a uniform is for security and identity and to keep kids from singling out others.

[Kentish]

So sixth form, university and work are illdisciplined places are they?
Not many public interface jobs let you wear what you want.

What do you wear to work?

[CptCoatHanger]

I'm not too sure where I stand on this issue.

I think that school uniform is a good idea as we all know how cruel kids can be. Having everyone dress the same eliminates one area of anxiety for students. I don’t think the argument of kids wearing second hand or lesser quality clothes really stands up. Second hand uniforms don’t equate to shabby appearance. I had second hand school jumpers and no one ever noticed.

I think that winning the case using the religion argument has more serious connotations than whether or not she can wear the garment. It’s putting religion above personal morals and ideals on a scale of importance. I doubt that someone who argued that they found school uniform degrading, a way of stripping away identity and forcing conformity would be allowed to where what they liked to school.

[Toadborg]

Personally I cannot imagine why this story gets any attention at all.

Why on earth is what someone chooses to where at school of any real importance at all? The fact it had to go to court ect is just ridiculous.........

[MrG]

if nothing stupid went on though we would have to talk about sensible things in here and be all civilised

sounds too bad an idea for me

[pedr]

Human Rights law says everyone has a right to manifest his or her religion or belief, although the government can limit that right so as to protect the safety, rights or freedoms of others. What rights or freedoms of others were being protected by this restriction on this young woman's right to manifest her religion as she interpreted it?

Some of the commentators appear to suggest they know everything about what the 'Muslim religion' requires - as if there were one clear and coherent set of beliefs which are called 'Muslim'. My recollection of the original case, the subject of a paper at a conference I attended as part of my studies, was that her understanding of Islam was that she was required to dress in a way which distinguished her from non-Muslims. You can argue whether that should be allowed or not, but as long as the European Convention on Human Rights says that we (all!) have a right to freedom of religion, let's start giving it the weight we attach to other human rights.

[Tommo100]

silly attention seeking bitch.

Just had a read on the BBC site and even muslims who went to her school dont agree with her, pathetic, If her religion is that important to her you would think she would go to an islamic college and not a normal state school. You could tell by her reaction out of court this was more to do with a problem with authority than the hijab.

When you think of whats going on in the world its incredible that this is regarded as a "serious breach of human rights" pathetic.

Im presume now the 20,000 odd "Jedi Knights" that got it certified as an official religion in the last census will now be allowed to wear their capes and shades to school every day?

[Blagsta]

Jedi didn't get certified as an official religion in the last census.

[Tommo100]

well thats terrible then, what a disgusting breach of thier human rights.

[BlackArab]

Human Rights law says everyone has a right to manifest his or her religion or belief, although the government can limit that right so as to protect the safety, rights or freedoms of others. What rights or freedoms of others were being protected by this restriction on this young woman's right to manifest her religion as she interpreted it?

Some of the commentators appear to suggest they know everything about what the 'Muslim religion' requires - as if there were one clear and coherent set of beliefs which are called 'Muslim'. My recollection of the original case, the subject of a paper at a conference I attended as part of my studies, was that her understanding of Islam was that she was required to dress in a way which distinguished her from non-Muslims. You can argue whether that should be allowed or not, but as long as the European Convention on Human Rights says that we (all!) have a right to freedom of religion, let's start giving it the weight we attach to other human rights.

That for me sums it up.

[Man Of Kent]

Not many public interface jobs let you wear what you want.

What do you wear to work?

A suit, most days. Obviously, because I am a NHS manager, the suit has to be grey ;) :p

Seriously though, it isn't part of a dress code, there is no prescriptive mantra on what I should wear and on days I can be found in jeans and trainers...

[wheresmyplacebo]

Uniforms don't make people equal, just look alike.

The poorer students will still not have the same quality, are more likely to have second hand etc.

It doesn't achieve that aim at all.

What it does is make the children indentifiable, and makes them conform. The same principle is used in prison... ;)


not if the uniform is naturally cheap and crap which mine was, it was cheap but enforced

nylon jumper in schools colours with badge, black trousers, blacks shoes, and for pe a plain wihte fred perry top and black shorts, and black trainers

[Kentish]

A suit, most days. Obviously, because I am a NHS manager, the suit has to be grey ;) :p

Seriously though, it isn't part of a dress code, there is no prescriptive mantra on what I should wear and on days I can be found in jeans and trainers...
Would you allow one of your nurses or a scrubbed surgeon to wear a full length dress?

[Man Of Kent]

Slightly different case though, given the cleanliness issue.

But what you would have noticed is that in clinic the doctors wear various types of clothing, as do some nurses...

[budda]

The Mail's front page today is 'End to school uniform'.

Which is a shame really because I do think they serve a useful purpose, if for no other reason than just being a lot easier for parents.

[britishrepublican]

Extremely difficult to balance.

The arguement that uniform creates equality and prevents discrimination holds solid sway. On the other hand, it does surpress individuality to a small degree. Also, once you let a Muslim girl wear her religious dress, you cannot in turn prevent, by the same logic, a socialist from wearing a red armband (that may not be a good example, as we get into the debate of keeping the public domain neutral, but hopefully you get my point). My point is that it's either one way or the other. I would lean towards no uniform.

[Namaste]

I don't see why she can't just wear a headscarf and a long jumper if she wants to cover her body up and I don't understand how it is against the HUman Rights Act.

13. - (1) If a court's determination of any question arising under this Act might affect the exercise by a religious organisation (itself or its members collectively) of the Convention right to freedom of thought, conscience and religion, it must have particular regard to the importance of that right.

Human Rights Act (http://www.hmso.gov.uk/acts/acts1998/80042--b.htm#12)

I ain't studying Human Rights yet, nor have I studied law in college (but I can imagine somebody who has could translate this a bit?). I interpret it as if the action taken by the school is affecting the way in which she practices her religion then it's breaking the law. However, I don't know enough about Islam to say whether wearing what she does is required in some denominations (Amira?) of Islam.

[Uncle Joe]

No she didn't. She felt that her religion asked more of her than the school provided.

As you say, the school has a uniform policy, so why didn't it include this given that it's not abnormal?This isn't directed at you, MOK, you just happened to post the words which gave me pause for thought...

Off the top of my head, if her religion asks more of her than the school is willing to accept, maybe she should go to a different school?

[wheresmyplacebo]

This isn't directed at you, MOK, you just happened to post the words which gave me pause for thought...

Off the top of my head, if her religion asks more of her than the school is willing to accept, maybe she should go to a different school?


thats the thing, if she felt that the school wasnt culturally in her favour, then she should move school, to an islamic school or something that would allow it

arguing about uniform, and arguing aobut this girls case are 2 different things, this school has a uniform policy, its does cater for religions where things may be required, being a uniform however doesnt cater for cultural groups which is what she was in....

[CptCoatHanger]

Extremely difficult to balance.

The arguement that uniform creates equality and prevents discrimination holds solid sway. On the other hand, it does surpress individuality to a small degree. Also, once you let a Muslim girl wear her religious dress, you cannot in turn prevent, by the same logic, a socialist from wearing a red armband (that may not be a good example, as we get into the debate of keeping the public domain neutral, but hopefully you get my point). My point is that it's either one way or the other. I would lean towards no uniform.

I agree and disagree.

I fully respect cultural identity and diversity; it makes the world a more interesting place. However, integration is also necessary at times.

I lived in Luton (where this school is located) until moving away to university. My parents still live there. The school she attends is 80% Muslim. Not one other girl in the school’s history has felt by not wearing this particular garment it has infringed and restricted their ability to be a practising Muslim. If they had then surely this would have been raised as an issue long before.

She, or as I believe, whoever is pulling the puppets strings, is doing a lot of damage and they know it.

To suggest that her “Human Rights” have been breached is farcical.

[Senor Miguel]

exactly, this is one big stunt..........if wearing a gilbab was that important surely other muslims would be outraged, as it is she just thinks she is a special case when she ain't.......we weren't allowed skinheads or mohicans at school, it was a big enough deal when the few muslim girls there wanted to wear trousers instead of skirts........what makes her different? she is hiding behind her religion, its bogus imo........stop moaning and move schools ffs, but then she wouldn't get all the attention would she? :yeees:

[Born Slippy]

stop moaning and move schools ffs, but then she wouldn't get all the attention would she? :yeees:

Well both her parents are dead, maybe this explains the desperate need for attention?

[Senor Miguel]

well i'm not about to start an assault on the girl, i'm just making my point clear.

[Man Of Kent]

Off the top of my head, if her religion asks more of her than the school is willing to accept, maybe she should go to a different school?

Couldn't agree more. Although one has to ask if there is a local(ish) school which wouldcater for her?

[Man Of Kent]

The school she attends is 80% Muslim. Not one other girl in the school’s history has felt by not wearing this particular garment it has infringed and restricted their ability to be a practising Muslim.

Doesn't mean that hey didn't feel it though.

How many people on these boards disagree with income tax (Matadore) or with the poll tax and yet still pay because they aren't willing to take things to the extreme in defence of their views?

How many african-americans abided by segregation before Rosie (?) finally took a whites only seat on a bus?

[BlackArab]

Doesn't mean that hey didn't feel it though.

How many people on these boards disagree with income tax (Matadore) or with the poll tax and yet still pay because they aren't willing to take things to the extreme in defence of their views?

How many african-americans abided by segregation before Rosie (?) finally took a whites only seat on a bus?

Rosa Parks :thumb:

[Man Of Kent]

Rosa Parks :thumb:

I was close then. Given that it's US history and I am a dumb-ass white English dude, I'm pleased to have even got that far... woman doesn't get enough credit. Malcolm X and MLK get so much more.

[BlackArab]

At the end of the day the last time this was discussed I posted a verse in the Koran which backed what she was saying. At the end of the day, like Christianity or Judaism there are different opinions on the observance.

Who are we to decide how someone should observe their religion?

[wheresmyplacebo]

At the end of the day the last time this was discussed I posted a verse in the Koran which backed what she was saying. At the end of the day, like Christianity or Judaism there are different opinions on the observance.

Who are we to decide how someone should observe their religion?


we're not however there are limits to how far that can be pushed, if noone had requested in her school before, that says something

[Man Of Kent]

It's says that no-one else mentioned it, not that the school were right.

[Kentish]

Slightly different case though, given the cleanliness issue.

But what you would have noticed is that in clinic the doctors wear various types of clothing, as do some nurses...
Colleagues of mine have been pulled up for having certain hairstlyes and unironed shirts. It's about looking smart and dressing appropriately. I'm not saying this girl is unkempt, but if you are going to have a uniform policy, it should be adhered to. If you don't like it, go to a different school.

[wheresmyplacebo]

Rosa Parks :thumb:


dont make a martyr out of this girl, rosa parks done what was good against an overtly racist system

this uniform code DID not discriminate against muslims, being a uniform it discriminates against minor cultural differences ie political influences

to stop this fuss we should go the french way and make all state schools secular in nature, obviously provide simple prayer rooms but nothing else

[BlackArab]

dont make a martyr out of this girl, rosa parks done what was good against an overtly racist system

this uniform code DID not discriminate against muslims, being a uniform it discriminates against minor cultural differences ie political influences

to stop this fuss we should go the french way and make all state schools secular in nature, obviously provide simple prayer rooms but nothing else

The uniform policy discriminated against some Muslims.

There never was a need for a fuss just a little common sense and understanding.

[Kermit]

I am against school uniform, because of the cost issue more than anything.

However, I don't think it was unreasonable to ban this attention-seeking moron from school in her dress. If you decide to join a school you can't then claim that your "human rights" are infringed because you CHOSE to go there. After all, she's changed schools now anyway, so there was obviously another choice.

I'll bet my bottom dollar that it wouldn't have been found this way if it was Jew, Hindu or Sikh. Governments and judiciaries trying to brown-nose the Muslim community? Never!

[Man Of Kent]

Colleagues of mine have been pulled up for having certain hairstlyes and unironed shirts.

Junior Docs being pulled up by consultants?

[Dear Wendy]

Butting into the conversations, without following what trail the discussion has taken.

1. I completely disagree with schooluniforms. That for starters.
2. I think this girl was right, and congratulate her on her victory. Who are we to say that she was already catered for?
I mean, if she doesn't feel she is abiding her religious laws as properly as she could, then we have no right whatsoever to interfere.
Some said that her demands were cultural rather than religious, and that's exactly the case. She has apparently chosen to follow a rule in some way, so just because we prefer the "lighter" version then how will you prove to her it's correct?

The fact that this has caused so much controversy, and is even mentioned in the Danish medias, is astonishing. I mean, what is there to discuss? Let her have her scarve, she didn't ask to go nude.

[Senor Miguel]

it's about setting a precedent really tho isn't it, if she's allowed to break uniform for cultural reasons anyone can just invent something and say its part of their culture...........i don't agree with uniforms either it's like suppressing individuality, but they are there for a reason..........

[Dear Wendy]

it's about setting a precedent really tho isn't it, if she's allowed to break uniform for cultural reasons anyone can just invent something and say its part of their culture...........i don't agree with uniforms either it's like suppressing individuality, but they are there for a reason..........

Her reason was religious. Just interpretated from a cultural point of view.

And to be frank, I don't agree with the reasons people her have presented to keep the uniform. Don't know what the official reason is though.

[Senor Miguel]

my understanding is that uniforms are there to keep equality, to stop ppl getting teased for having unfashionable clothes, etc..............that's the only reason i agree with them........

[Dear Wendy]

my understanding is that uniforms are there to keep equality, to stop ppl getting teased for having unfashionable clothes, etc..............that's the only reason i agree with them........

The reason doesn't make sense. As kids who would bully for the clothing their peers wear, would surely find other flaws they could tease about - weight, haircolor, parents, etc.

[Senor Miguel]

The reason doesn't make sense. As kids who would bully for the clothing their peers wear, would surely find other flaws they could tease about - weight, haircolor, parents, etc.

i agree schoolkids get teased for almost everything else, they way it was explained to me that school is an environment for learning and if they're all competing for the best clothes, latest fashion etc, this does not lend itself to a learning environment, and is distracting..........but your right it does seem petty when you consider everything else that goes on in school, i guess the class thing is about feeling somehow less of a person if you dont keep up with the jones?.........i don't like uniforms i can't really argue with you on this one, much as i'd like to :p

[Dear Wendy]

i agree schoolkids get teased for almost everything else, they way it was explained to me that school is an environment for learning and if they're all competing for the best clothes, latest fashion etc, this does not lend itself to a learning environment, and is distracting..........but your right it does seem petty when you consider everything else that goes on in school, i guess the class thing is about feeling somehow less of a person if you dont keep up with the jones?.........i don't like uniforms i can't really argue with you on this one, much as i'd like to :p

I am always right :)

[Senor Miguel]

I am always right :)

meh, that's another debate, not today tho i'm off to watch constantine........ :wave:

[CptCoatHanger]

I could have stomached the whole affair if she hadn’t have started spouting that the breach of her “human rights” were due to the sate of Islamophobia after 9-11. I don’t for one second believe those were her words either.

The reason doesn't make sense. As kids who would bully for the clothing their peers wear, would surely find other flaws they could tease about - weight, haircolor, parents, etc.

The reason makes perfect sense. The school is trying to provide an environment as equal for everyone as possible. It’s trying to remove areas that are detrimental to the learning process. It doesn’t have control over what kids eat, their genes or their parents.

On a simple practical level, uniform provides an easy way of identifying students outside of the school grounds.

I mean, if she doesn't feel she is abiding her religious laws as properly as she could, then we have no right whatsoever to interfere.

You’re putting religious ideas and ideals above those of the individual and that’s a dangerous state of affairs. If you start to do this then you advocate a state of anarchy. I’m not suggesting that this incident will incite that, but using the argument that her religion can, if needed, set her aside from rules being applied to everybody else, does.

The fact that this has caused so much controversy, and is even mentioned in the Danish medias, is astonishing. I mean, what is there to discuss? Let her have her scarve,

It wasn’t a scarf.

[Kentish]

Junior Docs being pulled up by consultants?
Well, medical students, but on the wards yes. And I couldn't agree more - I think you do need to take care in your appearance if you expect someone to potentially put their life in your hands...but anyway.

Am I really the only one who sees the advantages of school uniforms (leaving costs aside)?

I know I feel more like working when I wear smart clothes. Maybe it's social conditioning, but I think it is very important to separate work from leisure time. A uniform does that, and that is a key selling point for me.

[BeckyBoo]

Her reason was religious.

Then go to a school that caters for her religion, dont sent her to a school that has dress code which is unsuitable for her.
I chose the school I wanted my Daughter to go to because of the education she would receive, I could have quite easily sent her to a school less than 4 mins away from my doorstep but I chose to send her to a school which is at least 20 mins walk each way, has a strict uniform but if I wasnt prepared to follow the dress code of that school who am I to 'think' I can get them to change just for my Daughter.....its wrong what they have done. They knew the uniform code before the girl went to that school and if they didnt like it then tough shit tbh.

[BeckyBoo]

Am I really the only one who sees the advantages of school uniforms (leaving costs aside)?


Costs aside ? Id say its cheaper to buy a uniform than it is trendy, labelled clothes...........if school uniform did not have to be worn then kids would be wanting 50 quid trainers along with 50 quid jeans and a 50 quid top.

Im all for uniforms personally. The kids from our School did a charity concert thing just before christmas and they were singing carols, they all looked really smart, all had the same clothes on and it does actually give a better impression of the school in my opinion.

[Dear Wendy]

The reason makes perfect sense. The school is trying to provide an environment as equal for everyone as possible. It’s trying to remove areas that are detrimental to the learning process. It doesn’t have control over what kids eat, their genes or their parents.

On a simple practical level, uniform provides an easy way of identifying students outside of the school grounds.

How can clothing be detrimental for the learning proces, moreso than haircolor can be?
Seriously, coming to think of it, no wonder you have such huge emphasis on class in England, contrary to the rest of Europe. You teach kids that it's so important to be part of a homogenised bunch, rather than embrasing diversity.



You’re putting religious ideas and ideals above those of the individual and that’s a dangerous state of affairs. If you start to do this then you advocate a state of anarchy. I’m not suggesting that this incident will incite that, but using the argument that her religion can, if needed, set her aside from rules being applied to everybody else, does.

I am advocating that this girl is free to do what she wants as long as her actions don't hurt anybody else. Now, that is not putting anything above the individual. If you advocate the right of the individual, then you have to realise that this individual may choose to abide by a religion.
She wasn't completely pissing on the school rules, she just modificated a fucking piece of clothing, without being vulgar or disrespecting the school image.


It wasn’t a scarf.

Scarf, burkha, jilbab, whatever. I think we both know what I mean. And

I believe that everyone can do what they want as long as their actions d

[Dear Wendy]

Then go to a school that caters for her religion, dont sent her to a school that has dress code which is unsuitable for her.
I chose the school I wanted my Daughter to go to because of the education she would receive, I could have quite easily sent her to a school less than 4 mins away from my doorstep but I chose to send her to a school which is at least 20 mins walk each way, has a strict uniform but if I wasnt prepared to follow the dress code of that school who am I to 'think' I can get them to change just for my Daughter.....its wrong what they have done. They knew the uniform code before the girl went to that school and if they didnt like it then tough shit tbh.

As far as I understoof it was a normal public school she attended, therefore THEY should be prepared to teach everyone who comes.
On the other hand had she seeked a special school, with a special dress code, then yes, then I will follow you.

[Kentish]

Costs aside ? Id say its cheaper to buy a uniform than it is trendy, labelled clothes...........if school uniform did not have to be worn then kids would be wanting 50 quid trainers along with 50 quid jeans and a 50 quid top.

Im all for uniforms personally. The kids from our School did a charity concert thing just before christmas and they were singing carols, they all looked really smart, all had the same clothes on and it does actually give a better impression of the school in my opinion.
I totally agree, but I was trying to avoid the cost argument altogether. :)

[BeckyBoo]

As far as I understoof it was a normal public school she attended, therefore THEY should be prepared to teach everyone who comes.
On the other hand had she seeked a special school, with a special dress code, then yes, then I will follow you.

As far as im aware the school had a dress code, if im wrong im gonna make myself look silly again :lol:

[Kentish]

How can clothing be detrimental for the learning proces, moreso than haircolor can be?
Most schools will have rules on haircolour too. Dyeing and so on.
Seriously, coming to think of it, no wonder you have such huge emphasis on class in England, contrary to the rest of Europe. You teach kids that it's so important to be part of a homogenised bunch, rather than embrasing diversity.
:chin: How is being homogenised emphasising class? I fail to see the logic in that.
She wasn't completely pissing on the school rules, she just modificated a fucking piece of clothing, without being vulgar or disrespecting the school image.
She disobeyed the school rules - it was one rule for her and another for everyone else and the school wouldn't stand for it. I wish I could "modify" the speed limits so I could drive however fast I want in accordance with the 'culture' of Formula One racing that I follow, but it's not on.

[Kentish]

As far as I understoof it was a normal public school she attended, therefore THEY should be prepared to teach everyone who comes.
True to an extent. But conversely, the pupils should be prepared to be taught. And that includes respect for authority.

[BeckyBoo]

And that includes respect for authority.

Exactly !!

[Dear Wendy]

Most schools will have rules on haircolour too. Dyeing and so on.

I was speaking about the difference between my black hair, to the next kids red hair, to the third kids blonde hair.
Kids with freckles get teased. Kids with glasses. Overweight.

It's the bullies who have the problems, and they're the ones who need meassures taken against them. Not the kids with the clothes that the bulies don't like.

:chin: How is being homogenised emphasising class? I fail to see the logic in that.

The kids are only used to hanging around with their own kind, with such rules.

[Dear Wendy]

True to an extent. But conversely, the pupils should be prepared to be taught. And that includes respect for authority.
Yes.
Though this girl didn't ask for much.
And the authorities were wrong.

[Kentish]

I was speaking about the difference between my black hair, to the next kids red hair, to the third kids blonde hair.
Kids with freckles get teased. Kids with glasses. Overweight.

It's the bullies who have the problems, and they're the ones who need meassures taken against them. Not the kids with the clothes that the bulies don't like.
It's nowt to do with bullying.
The kids are only used to hanging around with their own kind, with such rules.
Rubbish. If kids were able to wear what they wanted, the class divide would become even more apparent at school.

[Kentish]

Though this girl didn't ask for much.
She asked to have her own rules.

The school seems to have gone out of its way to seek advice from local muslim leaders. There's only so much they can do without scrapping the uniform policy entirely...which is a different argument really.

[Teagan]

Seems there may have been more tothis than meets the eye ...

http://www.thisislondon.co.uk/news/articles/17038092?source=Evening%20Standard

[Uncle Joe]

After more time to think about this, I really haven't gotten much further. I knew, even as I was saying it, that my earlier suggestion amounted to the school saying 'If you don't like it, go somewhere else', and I take a dim view of that attitude from moderators and posters on other sites. The trouble is that if it's a religious dress requirement, even an especially strict one, there's just no gainsaying it, whatever Muslim scholars advise. It sucks for this to be in the headlines when there are far more important legal issues, like the new terrorism measures, to be discussed, but there you go. In less charitable moments, I file this kind of thing under 'Taking The Piss'. With all the accusations that Islam is trying to 'take over the world', we really need these kind of cases :yeees:

My last attempt at a defence of the (former) staus quo: In a school environment, do the same conditions that might require the wearing of a jiljab really exist? How bad could the place be, and still be suitable for a strict muslim girl? I fear this is going to have consequences...

[Uncle Joe]

Seems there may have been more tothis than meets the eye ...

http://www.thisislondon.co.uk/news/articles/17038092?source=Evening%20StandardAnd here come some consequences...

I nearly namechecked Al-Muhajiroun in the last post, as one group that is interested in an Islamic take-over. Now here's another bunch of numb-nuts making life hard for run-of-the-mill Muslims. Religion, who'd have it?

At the same time, it is the Standard...

[CptCoatHanger]

How can clothing be detrimental for the learning proces, moreso than haircolor can be?

Have you missed what we’ve all been saying or are you deliberately ignoring it? No one is saying that hair colour carries more or less weight in the “likely to be bullied” scale than clothes. What I’ve been saying is that that the school has the ability to control what children wear, hence removing one of the potential flash points.

You teach kids that it's so important to be part of a homogenised bunch, rather than embrasing diversity.

Apart from that being a massive generalisation, which I’ll let go, it’s just plain wrong. Go away, do some research, then come back and tell me how the UK stands up to your diversity claim against the rest of Europe.

The kids are only used to hanging around with their own kind, with such rules

Have you ever ventured anywhere near a UK comprehensive school?

[Dear Wendy]

Have you missed what we’ve all been saying or are you deliberately ignoring it? No one is saying that hair colour carries more or less weight in the “likely to be bullied” scale than clothes. What I’ve been saying is that that the school has the ability to control what children wear, hence removing one of the potential flash points.



Apart from that being a massive generalisation, which I’ll let go, it’s just plain wrong. Go away, do some research, then come back and tell me how the UK stands up to your diversity claim against the rest of Europe.



Have you ever ventured anywhere near a UK comprehensive school?

Admittedly, having only been a visitor of the UK, I can only draw my conclusions on what I read and hear.

And for all I know, the UK aremuch more fixated on class than the rest of Europe. People take pride in their working/middle/upper-class rank and seem to have intrigues between the class.
Though it could be interesting to hear if Aladdin had the same perception.

You do have a lot of cultures and mixes in the UK. I deeply respect that, and that is the main reason of my fascination with London (along with Covent Garden and Bond Street) - but I do find it worrying how you seem to fractionise (is that a word?) and keep within those groups. View the AG forums and see how many threads are dedicated to the so-called "chavs", "toffs", "emo-kids", "goths", etc. While I do appericiate that people automatically seek to find other people alike themselves, then I figure that this happens to a much greater extent in the UK.

[CptCoatHanger]

Birds of a feather flock together.

People will always search for others of similar ilk. I think that’s natural in any culture and not an exclusively British trait.

Don't get me started on Chavs! :p

[Kentish]

Birds of a feather flock together.
It's true that.

JtR, why do you defend Israel and stick up for Jews? We all have our groups.

[Toadborg]

And for all I know, the UK aremuch more fixated on class than the rest of Europe. People take pride in their working/middle/upper-class rank and seem to have intrigues between the class.


I do not really think this is true.

I don't know anyone who really considers their class to be important that I know of, not really.

As you mention people are far more likely to identify in terms of lifestyle, something which is not necessarily class-orientated.......

[Born Slippy]

the UK are much more fixated on class than the rest of Europe.

Every country in the world has a 'class'. And we are all equally "fixated" on it. The idea that this is something unique to Britain is a myth.

[Senor Miguel]

I am always right :)

Are we gonna have a retraction on that statement now? :razz:

[Man Of Kent]

Well, medical students, but on the wards yes.

Thought so. How much of that was about power, do you think?

However, the underlying point is something I agree with. Appearance is important but doctors, managers and many nurses don't wear a uniform... just dress smartly.

[Man Of Kent]

Then go to a school that caters for her religion, dont sent her to a school that has dress code which is unsuitable for her.

i don't know what the situation is in her town, but I dont't know of a single school in a 50m radius of where I live which is "muslim" based, whereas we have two "christian" schools (only access if you have church signature on application) within four miles...

Just a thought.

[BlackArab]

I do not really think this is true.

I don't know anyone who really considers their class to be important that I know of, not really.

As you mention people are far more likely to identify in terms of lifestyle, something which is not necessarily class-orientated.......

I would have to say that class is a huge factor in this country, imo of course.

[Dear Wendy]

It's true that.

JtR, why do you defend Israel and stick up for Jews? We all have our groups.

I did mention that, and said it was natural :) Re-read my post.

I just think that the UK plays a much higher emphasis on the difference between the groups. Especially class.

[Dear Wendy]

Are we gonna have a retraction on that statement now? :razz:

Nope.
Not at all.

I am more or less sure of my case in this.

[Kentish]

Thought so. How much of that was about power, do you think?
None. The consultant involved is very genuine but is responsible for undergraduate teaching and likes students to look professional. TBH, I haven't experienced much power tripping by consultants at all - but then again I haven't worked under an orthopaedic surgeon yet. ;)
However, the underlying point is something I agree with. Appearance is important but doctors, managers and many nurses don't wear a uniform... just dress smartly.
Which is one of the roles of the uniform. How many kids would dress smartly, given the choice? It's important for concentration levels for pupils to be in 'work mode' imho.

ps I think you'll find most nurses do wear a uniform.

[Kentish]

I just think that the UK plays a much higher emphasis on the difference between the groups. Especially class.
I disagree. Depending on how you're defining 'class', I think every society in the world has a class system, or similar hierarchy according to social status. Just look at the caste system of the Indian subcontinent. Whether that's right or wrong is another matter.

[BeckyBoo]

i don't know what the situation is in her town, but I dont't know of a single school in a 50m radius of where I live which is "muslim" based, whereas we have two "christian" schools (only access if you have church signature on application) within four miles...

Just a thought.

So then there is not a demand for them.......just a thought.

Also while we have 'thoughts' if I went to a muslim based country with my Daughter would her needs be catered for or would she have to abide by their rules.....just a thought like.

edited to add.......my wording dont look too clever (just re read it) , but you get the point of what im trying to say ?

[Kentish]

Also while we have 'thoughts' if I went to a muslim based country with my Daughter would her needs be catered for or would she have to abide by their rules.....just a thought like.
We're not talking about expats though - these are 2nd, 3rd ,4th generation immigrants - British citizens. The UK is not a non-muslim country.

I still think this girl is taking the mickey though.

[BeckyBoo]

We're not talking about expats though - these are 2nd, 3rd ,4th generation immigrants - British citizens. The UK is not a non-muslim country.


Aye true, I knew id worded it wrong :(

[Man Of Kent]

TBH, I haven't experienced much power tripping by consultants at all - but then again I haven't worked under an orthopaedic surgeon yet. ;)

:D

It's the orthpods I blame for me starting smoking again.

How many kids would dress smartly, given the choice?

Isn't appearance something which kids are interested in?

ps I think you'll find most nurses do wear a uniform.

If you're lucky :naughty:

Again point taken, but how much of that is expectation? Worth noting that we are even going back to cuffs because the impression that gives is a return to "old style" nursing...

[Dear Wendy]

I disagree. Depending on how you're defining 'class', I think every society in the world has a class system, or similar hierarchy according to social status. Just look at the caste system of the Indian subcontinent. Whether that's right or wrong is another matter.

Yes. You just do it more. By a long way.

[BeckyBoo]

Yes. You just do it more. By a long way.

ad away an shite man :p

[Man Of Kent]

So then there is not a demand for them.......just a thought.

There isn't the demand for the other faith based schools here either. Most parnets buck the system to their kids there...

I'm sure the demand is here, just not sufficient numbers to justify a whole school. So Muslims locally don't have that as an option at all.

Also while we have 'thoughts' if I went to a muslim based country with my Daughter would her needs be catered for or would she have to abide by their rules.....just a thought like.

But this is supposed to be a multicultural society, not one ruled by religion... that's the difference.

[BeckyBoo]

But this is supposed to be a multicultural society, not one ruled by religion... that's the difference.

So then in that case children go to school for an education and not religious beliefs and the religous beliefs should be left at the school gate then when you leave the school and go home do whatever your religion asks of you ?

[Kentish]

:D

It's the orthpods I blame for me starting smoking again.
Stop. Now. It's for your own good.

Get your friendly orthopod to show you an xray of a dried out intervertebral disc and a patient with chronic back pain.
Isn't appearance something which kids are interested in?
I certainly wasn't interested in wearing smart clothes at school when I didn't have to. Look at 'own clothes days'.
If you're lucky :naughty:

Again point taken, but how much of that is expectation? Worth noting that we are even going back to cuffs because the impression that gives is a return to "old style" nursing...
We're straying from the point, but nurses should look clean and smart. In fact they should be clean if we're ever to meet the govt target on MRSA. "Old style" nursing isn't suitable for a modern hospital. Patients who used to stay in for months are now in and out within days. The throughput of a modern hospital is quite astonishing and the nurses simply don't have the time to be scrubbing floors and looking attractive.

[Kentish]

Yes. You just do it more. By a long way.
I don't see it. Perhaps you're right but maybe only an outsider would notice.

I thought we lived in a classless society these days? :confused:

[Toadborg]

I agree.

I just don't think class is that important now. Maybe to the older generation but to the younger generation I do not think that it matters that much.

What music you like is more likely to differentiate you than your class I would say........

[BlackArab]

I agree.

I just don't think class is that important now. Maybe to the older generation but to the younger generation I do not think that it matters that much.

What music you like is more likely to differentiate you than your class I would say........

Perhaps it different but in my experience that it is a big issue on a subconcious level. Look at recent issues concerning education, Chavs, Fox hunting, Prince Charles and his comments about aspirations etc class is the big subtext in this.

I used to live in an area of Bristol which is like the Matrix. There are two parallel worlds co-existing but seperate. There are cafes, pubs and shops which are working class or middle class on the same street and little mixing of customers. There are are seperate community centres and events going on.
99% of people were white, English but it might as well have been different nationalities.

[BlackArab]

And don't get me started on Bristol University.