Woman served an ASBO for trying to kill herself

[Aladdin]

A woman who has attempted suicide four times has been banned from jumping into rivers, canals or onto railway lines.

Bath magistrates granted an anti-social behaviour order (Asbo) against Kim Sutton from Odd Down.

Sutton could be jailed for breaking the order.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/somerset/4297695.stm


Yep, that's the right approach... :rolleyes:

Thank god for ASBOs eh? Shame they weren't around when Hitler came to power...

[Fiend_85]

Done (http://vbulletin.thesite.org.uk/showthread.php?t=78431)

You're looking at it in the wrong way.

[twisted_trinity]

no he's not. this woman needs help not an ASBO. but somerset's council and courts are totaly crap and never seem to help anyone but the very rich.

[Fiend_85]

:rolleyes: So glad people can get some perspective, and of course, post in the original thread.

So, take a different story with an apparently disproportionate and unsuitable punishment. Remember that girl who was kidnapped, jumped from the car, was hit by a cab and died? The cabbie failed to stop, and got 200hrs (or something) community service. I remember kermit being fairly rabid about it. However, you had to look for what he was actually being punished for. His punishment was for not stopping, seeing as there was (in all likelyhood) no way he could have missed her, so the collision wasn't his fault, and no way for anyone else to know if she would have lived had he stopped, so he's not even being held responsible for her death, simply failing to stop and report an accident. That's all.

Here, she's not being punished for being depressed or attention seeking, the ASBO is designed to protect the rest of the public. We don't know what help she's getting, or if she's refused it. What is important, no matter how you want to equate trauma and injury to others and her own possible death, is that society has a responsiblity not just to help her, but to protect the majority as well. She's being banned from certain locations, not from any social intervention.

[Yerascrote]

save the world...put her in a house instead where she has no chance of killing herself :confused: seirously fiend...there's something fucked up corrupting your head...you seem ok most times but in some issues i just feel like :banghead: :banghead: :banghead: when reading your posts. what about freedom of the individual...thats the most important issue for me...always has and always will.

[rachie004]

I'm sure I read in the paper that a guy got served an ASBO for drinking petrol (like in petrol stations, nozzle in mouth) on several occasions

[Fiend_85]

I'm sure I read in the paper that a guy got served an ASBO for drinking petrol (like in petrol stations, nozzle in mouth) on several occasions
You can take freedom of the individual too far. You could argue, if you wanted, that Ian Huntley should have had the individual freedom to kill anyone and walk free.

If she's going to jump off things, it's not just herself she's affecting. It's NOT her sickness that's being punished, it's NOT, but the ASBO is preventative. We do NOT know the details of the case, and we do NOT know what help she's also getting.

[twisted_trinity]

she should have been forcably sectioned not given a ASBO.

[SuzyCreamcheese]

save the world...put her in a house instead where she has no chance of killing herself :confused: seirously fiend...there's something fucked up corrupting your head...you seem ok most times but in some issues i just feel like :banghead: :banghead: :banghead: when reading your posts. what about freedom of the individual...thats the most important issue for me...always has and always will.
Actually I think Fiend had a very good point.

[Fiend_85]

Do you know the details of the case?

[twisted_trinity]

Do you know the details of the case?
if i had been given an ASBO after i'd the attempts i made then i'd go against it and make sure i did the job properly to spite the stupid judge.

[SuzyCreamcheese]

if i had been given an ASBO after i'd the attempts i made then i'd go against it and make sure i did the job properly to spite the stupid judge.
would you also cut your nose off to spite your face?

[Fiend_85]

if i had been given an ASBO after i'd the attempts i made then i'd go against it and make sure i did the job properly to spite the stupid judge.
Do you know the details of the case?

[Man Of Kent]

she should have been forcably sectioned not given a ASBO.

It's worth reading the other thread on this issue. You might then understand why sectioning is not possible... maybe.

Thing is you/we know fuck all about this case. Now if, as Fiend suggests, the ASBO is to save some poor sod getting hauled out of his bed at 3am to scrape this woman off some traintracks/fish her out of a river then I have no problem with that. Provided that she is also getting some help for whatever is driving her to do this...

[Fiend_85]

You could also look at it as why bother sectioning her, if an ASBO and some councilling will fix it?

[wheresmyplacebo]

You can take freedom of the individual too far. You could argue, if you wanted, that Ian Huntley should have had the individual freedom to kill anyone and walk free.



what?!?? youre missing the point

thats nicely against the law..... and was proved and what not

asbos in my opinion are a bad idea, instead they should be offering her help etc, and then saying "youre going to cause people a lot of grief etc we'll have no choice but to section you"

tidy up the mental health act, dont give a bloody anti social behaviour order

[girl with sharp teeth]

.

[wheresmyplacebo]

Wasn't that guy in Teesside? He was nicking the petrol though, it wasn't just the fact that he was drinking it.


do him for theft then......

[girl with sharp teeth]

.

[Kentish]

Wasn't that guy in Teesside? He was nicking the petrol though, it wasn't just the fact that he was drinking it.
And she's been banned from entering multi storey carparks, not from throwing herself off them.

[girl with sharp teeth]

.

[Kentish]

And? :)
So if his ASBO was acceptable, so should hers be. Both clearly have problems to be dealt with.

[girl with sharp teeth]

.

[twisted_trinity]

if she really wants to kill herself an ASBO isn't going to stop her.

[Kentish]

if she really wants to kill herself an ASBO isn't going to stop her.
Neither is sectioning her.

[wheresmyplacebo]

Neither is sectioning her.

one provides hope of helping her feel better about her life :thumb:

can yua guess what it is yet chuck :p

[twisted_trinity]

Neither is sectioning her.
sectioning her would mean she would ahve to have treatment, thus more chance of getting better. And she would have been less danger to the public. and she would have been monitored, much less likely to be able to commit suicide.

[Man Of Kent]

Oh to be so naive.

You know that my local Mental Health hospital has to check the trees in their grounds everytime a patient leave the ward for any length of time.

Sectioning someone doesn't mean that they will respond to treatment.

[budda]

You're right, we dont know the facts in this case.

However we do know that ASBO's are based on hearsay evidence, that they are making crimes out of things that were not crimes before, that they carry prison terms.....

Plus, you have to wonder if this step will really make ANY difference. A possible prison term is not going to stop someone if they think they will die. I fail to see what possible impact this move will have.

Maybe if they put up some more 'Not Wanted' posters or made her face really public like with other ASBO's that would help.

[Blagsta]

You can take freedom of the individual too far. You could argue, if you wanted, that Ian Huntley should have had the individual freedom to kill anyone and walk free.

What the fuck? :confused:

If she's going to jump off things, it's not just herself she's affecting. It's NOT her sickness that's being punished, it's NOT, but the ASBO is preventative. We do NOT know the details of the case, and we do NOT know what help she's also getting.

How are criminal sanctions going to help?

[MrG]

Neither is sectioning her.

firing squad would


so very wrong, but would stop her

[BlackArab]

Sectioning someone doesn't mean that they will respond to treatment.

True. But you can still provide the treatment surely?

Generally if someone has been offered treatment and fails to respond and you are certain they will continue to make suicide attempts, what options are currently available?

[Man Of Kent]

True. But you can still provide the treatment surely?

And nothing in the ASBO rules that out.

Generally if someone has been offered treatment and fails to respond and you are certain they will continue to make suicide attempts, what options are currently available?

Ultimately the person will make that choice for themselves. But, as Kentish pointed out in the other thread, you cannot section someone if you cannot diagnose them, or offer treatment.

The NHS no longer detains people routinely if they happen to have mental problems, and pose no danger to anyone else.

[budda]

I just fail to see what this is expected to achieve, is it really going to stop her?

[Man Of Kent]

No, but as I said before, it will make it less likely that some poor sod it going to have to clean up after her, or that some child will witness the event.

Clearly this case has some unusual qualities, and we need to bear that in mind. We aren't talking about normal circumstances here, hence the ASBO.

[freethepeeps]

No, but as I said before, it will make it less likely that some poor sod it going to have to clean up after her, or that some child will witness the event.

Not according to Marjorie Wallace of Sane (http://portal.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2005/02/26/nasbo26.xml&sSheet=/news/2005/02/26/ixhome.html) it won't.

Marjorie Wallace, the chief executive of Sane, said: "An Asbo is a quite inappropriate way of dealing with someone with mental issues and could make that person even more determined to go through with a suicide attempt."

I can't see that a suicidal person is going to think, "ok my - I can't go near a river, I've got an ASBO" - and no-one on either thread has come anywhere near demonstrating that thats likely to happen.

The idea that its to protect other people from having to feel uncomfoirtable is more likely - Liberty said from the start this was likely to be a tool to tackle con-conformity, and by george, it seems they were right!!!

Why bother with social care, or even human care when we have ASBOs!!!!

[budda]

This action could further isolate her from society which could make her killing herself more likely.

[Man Of Kent]

Not according to Marjorie Wallace of Sane (http://portal.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2005/02/26/nasbo26.xml&sSheet=/news/2005/02/26/ixhome.html) it won't.

Erm.. she says it could make her more likely. By that token it could make it less likely.

I can't see that a suicidal person is going to think, "ok my - I can't go near a river, I've got an ASBO" - and no-one on either thread has come anywhere near demonstrating that thats likely to happen.

The idea that its to protect other people from having to feel uncomfoirtable is more likely - Liberty said from the start this was likely to be a tool to tackle con-conformity, and by george, it seems they were right!!!

Why bother with social care, or even human care when we have ASBOs!!!!

Oh FFS, once again someone glosses over the fact that this doesn't prevent any social care from being provided.

Perhaps you would like to have to rescue this lady on several occasions, perhaps you would like to clean up the mess after someone have been sliced by a train. Most of us don't. Why should we be exposed to it, on a regular basis...?

[Man Of Kent]

This action could further isolate her from society which could make her killing herself more likely.

Could, ifs and maybes...

[budda]

Could, ifs and maybes...

You're right, we cant really judge on this case, I just plain dont like ASBO's, so maybe thats colouring my judgement.

[freethepeeps]

Perhaps you would like to have to rescue this lady on several occasions, perhaps you would like to clean up the mess after someone have been sliced by a train. Most of us don't. Why should we be exposed to it, on a regular basis...?

Are you being exposed to it on a regular basis?

She lives in Odd Down, Bath. You live in Kent.

If you don't want suicidal people in your society, then you need to work on the issues that make people suicidal, rather than on sticking plasters that don't even make sense.

[wheresmyplacebo]

Perhaps you would like to have to rescue this lady on several occasions, perhaps you would like to clean up the mess after someone have been sliced by a train. Most of us don't. Why should we be exposed to it, on a regular basis...?


what about if she suceeds in killing herself, what you gona do, lock her, all it does it make her more determined to kill herself next time she tries, what you gona do? stop her buying loads of painkillers, or sleeping pillows, or razor blades, or anything to hang herself with, why not just tie her up so she cant move, or make it illegal for her not to eat and starve herself

[Kentish]

what about if she suceeds in killing herself, what you gona do, lock her?
Bury her, probably.

Painkillers are sold in packs of 16 now because people used to buy bottles of 100 and neck the lot in one go. Do you object to that use of the law to prevent successful suicide?

[Man Of Kent]

Are you being exposed to it on a regular basis?

We, society...

If you don't want suicidal people in your society, then you need to work on the issues that make people suicidal, rather than on sticking plasters that don't even make sense.

Again, and I repeat this for the people who are struggling, this ASBO does not prevent those issue being addressed.

Do I need to say that again, or has it sunk in yet.

[Man Of Kent]

what about if she suceeds in killing herself, what you gona do, lock her, all it does it make her more determined to kill herself next time she tries, what you gona do? stop her buying loads of painkillers, or sleeping pillows, or razor blades, or anything to hang herself with, why not just tie her up so she cant move, or make it illegal for her not to eat and starve herself

The ASBO isn't designed to stop her from topping herself. It's to stop her from doing it at certain places.

[wheresmyplacebo]

The ASBO isn't designed to stop her from topping herself. It's to stop her from doing it at certain places.


whats the ponit, what of the grief of people who have to try help her...

what is the point of asbos then?


hate the fricking things :no: :mad:

[budda]

Painkillers are sold in packs of 16 now because people used to buy bottles of 100 and neck the lot in one go. Do you object to that use of the law to prevent successful suicide?

So why can you buy packs of 96 soluble solphadine over the counter then?

[Kentish]

So why can you buy packs of 96 soluble solphadine over the counter then?
I meant drugs available under a general sales licence. Paracetamol and ibuprofen etc.

[freethepeeps]

We, society...



Again, and I repeat this for the people who are struggling, this ASBO does not prevent those issue being addressed.

Do I need to say that again, or has it sunk in yet.

You can say it till you're blue in the face :(

In November Sutton was rescued from the Avon twice in two hours.

Guardian (http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk_news/story/0,3604,1425706,00.html)

A whole assessment, diagnosis, and 'succesful treatment' in a space of hours, I am soooooo impressed.

As for "we, society", I happen to be part of that very same society - what exactly makes you think that you have the right to speak for me on this one?

[Man Of Kent]

As for "we, society", I happen to be part of that very same society

Fine, then the next time someone jumps in front of a train, will you be offering to pick up the pieces?

[budda]

I meant drugs available under a general sales licence. Paracetamol and ibuprofen etc.

But solphadine contains paracetamol, this isnt really related to the thread I'm just curious as to how its allowed thats all.

[freethepeeps]

Fine, then the next time someone jumps in front of a train, will you be offering to pick up the pieces?

Not if they've been ASBO'd I won't. I'll leave it to the magistrates.

You pick people off railway lines frequently do you?

Cos there was me thinking that people got paid to do stuff like that. And, if they're not happy doing it, they need to work on the terms and conditions of employment, not on trying to criminalise suicidal behaviour.

What kind of humane care pulls a woman out of a river and leaves her free to throw herself back in within 2 hours?

[Kentish]

But solphadine contains paracetamol, this isnt really related to the thread I'm just curious as to how its allowed thats all.
A pharmacist has to be present when it's sold, whereas paracetamol and brufen can be sold under a GSL in corner shops and supermarkets etc, hence the stricter rules on the pack sizes. It was designed to prevent accidental and spur-of-the-moment overdoses. Also why blister packs are used rather than bottles.

[Blagsta]

Painkillers are sold in packs of 16 now because people used to buy bottles of 100 and neck the lot in one go. Do you object to that use of the law to prevent successful suicide?

And suicidal people go and visit lots of different chemists to get enough. You will not prevent suicide with the law.

[Kentish]

What kind of humane care pulls a woman out of a river and leaves her free to throw herself back in within 2 hours?
If they took her to hospital, she says she regrets it and doesn't intend to do it again, there are no grounds for keeping her in hospital.

Are you arguing for a change in the law in detaining people who have displayed risk taking behaviour?

[Man Of Kent]

You pick people off railway lines frequently do you?

Nope, but I know people who do. I work with many of them.

You want to talk about preventing mental health problems, then perhaps you should talk to some of these people as hear about theirs...

Cos there was me thinking that people got paid to do stuff like that.

So fucking simple isn't it. If you pay someone then clearly they lose their ability have any feelings.

What kind of humane care pulls a woman out of a river and leaves her free to throw herself back in within 2 hours?

Huh? Not sure you really wanted to raise that point. Considering that you are arguing against something which helps prevent that.

How about you look at the case in question. This woman has been rescued three/four times in the past year. the people who did that put their own lives at risk to save hers. Would you rather than they just watched, or walked on past?

No, I'm sure that like me you would expect people to help her. But why should they placed in that position?

[Kentish]

And suicidal people go and visit lots of different chemists to get enough. You will not prevent suicide with the law.
No, but it prevents a certain type of self harm. And it has worked. You have to plan ahead and be pretty determined to go to a lot of different chemists. You are right that those suicides won't be prevented by laws.

[Man Of Kent]

And suicidal people go and visit lots of different chemists to get enough. You will not prevent suicide with the law.

I think that you'll find the evidence is that suicide by paracetemol has dropped dramtically since this law was introduced...

[freethepeeps]

If they took her to hospital, she says she regrets it and doesn't intend to do it again, there are no grounds for keeping her in hospital.

Are you arguing for a change in the law in detaining people who have displayed risk taking behaviour?

I'm saying that throwing yourself in a river is grounds for a lengthier intervention than 2 hours. At the time that someone is displaying risk taking behaviour I have no problem with an assessment being carried out, and with the person being prevented from discharging themselves from medical care till it has been carried out.

[Blagsta]

I think that you'll find the evidence is that suicide by paracetemol has dropped dramtically since this law was introduced...

Has the suicide rate dropped overrall?

[Man Of Kent]

Has the suicide rate dropped overrall?

Not sure.

But shouldn't we try to make it harder anyway?

[Blagsta]

Not sure.

But shouldn't we try to make it harder anyway?

Well yes. But if someone wants to kill themselves, they will.

[Kentish]

I'm saying that throwing yourself in a river is grounds for a lengthier intervention than 2 hours. At the time that someone is displaying risk taking behaviour I have no problem with an assessment being carried out, and with the person being prevented from discharging themselves from medical care till it has been carried out.
What happened to patient autonomy?

[freethepeeps]

What happened to patient autonomy?

ASBOs apparently.

The official concern seems to have been to charge the woman with offenses remember?


:eek:

[Man Of Kent]

ASBOs apparently.

Oh FFS, you are like a broken record.

One playing the wrong tune.

The official concern seems to have been to charge the woman with offenses remember?

Is it? You know what help she has been offered then do you?

[freethepeeps]

Oh FFS, you are like a broken record.

One playing the wrong tune.



Is it? You know what help she has been offered then do you?

I know. Its outrageous. Talking about ASBOs all the time, on a thread about .....er,......well...........aah......... ASBOs.

Whatever next!!!!

:o

What I do know is this, that she jumped into the river Avon twice within the space of 2 hours.

But what the hell, thats erm, what my comments say.

Tell us what you know about her then, and what exactly that qualifies you to comment on. Other than speaking for whatever the hell "society" is....

Or go and play your crappy games with someone else.

:yippe:

[Man Of Kent]

I know. Its outrageous. Talking about ASBOs all the time, on a thread about .....er,......well...........aah......... ASBOs.

But you are insinuating that the ASBO iprevent her autonomy. It doesn't. She can still kill herself if she wants, she can still seek medical treatment if she wants.

You seem to be under the impression that it prevents more than it does.

Still, why let the facts get in the way, eh?

What I do know is this, that she jumped into the river Avon twice within the space of 2 hours.

But what the hell, thats erm, what my comments say.

Actually you assumed too much.

Tell us what you know about her then

Nada, other than what has been written about the ASBO. You see as usual the media onkly concentrate on the sensational aspects...

and what exactly that qualifies you to comment on. Other than speaking for whatever the hell "society" is....

You mean apart from commissioning Mental Health services, or from having a personal associated medical history?

[Kentish]

What I do know is this, that she jumped into the river Avon twice within the space of 2 hours.
At least you acknowledge your ignorance.

[freethepeeps]

You mean apart from commissioning Mental Health services, or from having a personal associated medical history?

So, you experience of mental health services. So do I. Mine was in providing direct support to people. Yours appears to be about sitting behind a desk posting on thesite.....

That proved a lot, didn't it.

Oh except for one thing - you actually think you know the answer and can tell people what they can and can't post on this thread.

I presume neither.

;)

[Man Of Kent]

Oh except for one thing - you actually think you know the answer and can tell people what they can and can't post on this thread.

Can you link to where I have said that?

[Man Of Kent]

So, you experience of mental health services. So do I.


Personal, or a range of services?

[freethepeeps]

Can you link to where I have said that?

Yes.

[Man Of Kent]

Go on then.

[freethepeeps]

Go on then.

Nope - the game bored the pants off me the last time.

[Man Of Kent]

:lol:

I guess that's one way of diverting the thread away from the obvious nature of your ignorance...

[freethepeeps]

:lol:

I guess that's one way of diverting the thread away from the obvious nature of your ignorance...

Anytime you want to go and answer that question on the Middle East thread I might be prepared to consider your hoops.

If you're saying that you don't know the correct answer, and you aren't telling people what they can and cannot post then I guess you'll stop attacking posts.....

and stick to the topic rather than boring ad homs

[Man Of Kent]

Has the suicide rate dropped overrall?

Here's some information which would indicate that it has.

This story (http://society.guardian.co.uk/mentalhealth/story/0,8150,1339086,00.html) from the Guardian refers to the drop as a direct result from the 1998 change in the law on painkiller pack sizes.

These stats (http://www.samaritans.org/know/suicide_stats.shtm#) from the Samaritans would indicate that there has been a drop in the overrall rate of suicide for the past ten years.

[budda]

I think making public how grim taking an overdose of aspirin or paracetamol really is would do some good too. But thats not really applicable to the thread.

[twisted_trinity]

she needs care and help to help her change her her ways. i think an ASBO is much more likely to make her isolated because i'm pretty sure that she will go and do what shes been doing again. sectioning her, or putting her into some kind of residencial pscyiactric(sp) care that still involves her in the comunity but also means she has to go under treatment. An ASBO, will land her in prison, where she is far far far more likely to commit sucide.

people who go into prison with that sort of behavior don't usualy come back...

[Fiend_85]

people who go into prison with that sort of behavior don't usualy come back...

Got a source?

[Aladdin]

Jail suicide numbers at an all-time high (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/4136613.stm)

Hey, at least it partially solves the problem of prison overpopulation... :rolleyes:

[Fiend_85]

Has the proportion of suicides risen, or just the number?

[Aladdin]

Don't know. The numbers for sure, doesn't mention the proportion. But I remember reading elsewhere that the numbers of young inmates (i.e. teenagers) killing themselves had risen dramatically in the last few years, and that's bound to be an increase of the percentage as well as the total numbers.

[Kentish]

Don't know. The numbers for sure, doesn't mention the proportion. But I remember reading elsewhere that the numbers of young inmates (i.e. teenagers) killing themselves had risen dramatically in the last few years, and that's bound to be an increase of the percentage as well as the total numbers.
Since when did ASBO = prison? :confused:

[freethepeeps]

Since when did ASBO = prison? :confused:

Fairly frequently as it happens

[Man Of Kent]

Fairly frequently as it happens

Never, actually.

Breaching an ASBO on the other hand... that's a criminal offence...

[Fiend_85]

Don't know. The numbers for sure, doesn't mention the proportion. But I remember reading elsewhere that the numbers of young inmates (i.e. teenagers) killing themselves had risen dramatically in the last few years, and that's bound to be an increase of the percentage as well as the total numbers.
Not necessarily. It's not a given that the percentage has risen just because the volume has. Our prison population has also grown.

[Yerascrote]

Not necessarily. It's not a given that the percentage has risen just because the volume has. Our prison population has also grown.

well i think the over-crowdedness of our prisons is a major contribution to the suicide rates in prisons...prisons aren't the luxury spot some make it out...it's tough...bullying occurs regularly...there's gangs...it's organised...some pick on ethnic minorities...these along with other factors ultimately lead some to think that there's no other choice than death...sad situation indeed.

[Fiend_85]

Don't get me wrong, I'm not trying to make out that prison's are nice, just that the rise in suicide is to be expected with a rise in population, and that the actual percentage of suicides in total population may not have changed or in fact might have gone down.

[freethepeeps]

Don't get me wrong, I'm not trying to make out that prison's are nice, just that the rise in suicide is to be expected with a rise in population, and that the actual percentage of suicides in total population may not have changed or in fact might have gone down.

Deaths in custody have reached "shocking" levels, a committee of MPs and peers has warned. (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/4093349.stm)

BBC 14/12/04

[Jim V]

From the Samaritans -

http://www.samaritans.org/know/suicide_stats.shtm

Suicide trends over the last 10 years show:

* a 9% decrease in the United Kingdom overall
* a 9% decrease in England and Wales
* a 27% increase in Northern Ireland
* a 13% increase in Scotland
* a 26% increase in the Republic of Ireland

Male/Female Differences and Trends

The male suicide rate is higher than the rate for females in all UK countries and in the Republic of Ireland.

The difference is most pronounced in Northern Ireland with a male to female rate ratio of (6.8:1) Scotland (3:1) Republic of Ireland (4.6:1) and England and Wales (2.9:1) have lower differences between the genders in suicide rates.

The main reasons for the overall increases in Scotland, the Republic of Ireland and Northern Ireland are the rises in male suicide. In Scotland, the rates in the male 35-44 year old age group increased by 29% between 1992 and 2002.

Rates also increased by 20% in the 25-34 year old age group. In the Republic of Ireland, the rates in the 25-34 year old age group increased by 30% between 1992 and 2002, and by 53% in the 45-54 year old age group.

In Northern Ireland the numbers of suicide in the male 25-34 year old age group has increased by 104%. Within the male 45-54 year old age group there has been an 81% increase. However, it is important to bear in mind that that percentages can sometimes be exaggerated when dealing with small numbers.

[Fiend_85]

Deaths in custody have reached "shocking" levels, a committee of MPs and peers has warned. (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/4093349.stm)

BBC 14/12/04
Once again, NOT to say that the number hasn't gone up, but that the PROPORTION, that is, the number of suicides when compared to the rest of the prison population may not have done.