A New era in the Middle East

[The Matadore]

Consider just the past couple of days' news: not the ever more desperate depravity of the floundering "insurgency", but the real popular Arab resistance the car-bombers and the head-hackers are flailing against: the Saudi foreign minister, who by remarkable coincidence goes by the name of Prince Saud, told Newsweek that women would be voting in the next Saudi election. "That is going to be good for the election," he said, "because I think women are more sensible voters than men."

Four-time Egyptian election winner - and with 90 per cent of the vote! - President Mubarak announced that next polling day he wouldn't mind an opponent. Ordering his stenographer to change the constitution to permit the first multi-choice presidential elections in Egyptian history, His Excellency said the country would benefit from "more freedom and democracy". The state-run TV network hailed the president's speech as a "historical decision in the nation's 7,000-year-old march toward democracy". After 7,000 years on the march, they're barely out of the parking lot, so Mubarak's move is, as they say, a step in the right direction.

Meanwhile in Damascus, Boy Assad, having badly overplayed his hand in Lebanon and after months of denying that he was harbouring any refugee Saddamites, suddenly discovered that - wouldja believe it? - Saddam's brother and 29 other bigshot Baghdad Baathists were holed up in north-eastern Syria, and promptly handed them over to the Iraqi government.

And, for perhaps the most remarkable development, consider this report from Mohammed Ballas of Associated Press: "Palestinians expressed anger on Saturday at an overnight suicide bombing in Tel Aviv that killed four Israelis and threatened a fragile truce, a departure from former times when they welcomed attacks on their Israeli foes."

Why is all this happening? Answer: January 30. Don't take my word for it, listen to Walid Jumblatt, big-time Lebanese Druze leader and a man of impeccable anti-American credentials: "I was cynical about Iraq. But when I saw the Iraqi people voting three weeks ago, eight million of them, it was the start of a new Arab world. The Berlin Wall has fallen."

Three years ago, those of us in favour of destabilising the Middle East didn't have to be far-sighted geniuses: it was a win/win proposition. As Sam Goldwyn said, I'm sick of the old clichés, bring me some new clichés. The old clichés - Pan-Arabism, Baathism, Islamism, Arafatism - brought us the sewer that led to September 11. The new clichés could hardly be worse. Even if the old thug-for-life had merely been replaced by a new thug-for-life, the latter would come to power in the wake of the cautionary tale of the former.

But some of us - notably US deputy defence secretary Paul Wolfowitz - thought things would go a lot better than that. Wolfowitz was right, and so was Bush, and the Left, who were wrong about the Berlin Wall, were wrong again, the only difference being that this time they were joined in the dunce's corner of history by far too many British Tories. No surprise there. The EU's political establishment doesn't trust its own people, so why would they trust anybody else's? Bush trusts the American people, and he's happy to extend the same courtesy to the Iraqi people, the Syrian people, the Iranian people, etc.

Prof Glenn Reynolds, America's Instapundit, observes that "democratisation is a process, not an event". Far too often, it's treated like an event: ship in the monitors, hold the election, get it approved by Jimmy Carter and the UN, and that's it. Doesn't work like that. What's happening in the Middle East is the start of a long-delayed process. Eight million Iraqis did more for the Arab world on January 30 than 7,000 years of Mubarak-pace marching.


(extracted from an article in todays telegraph, not linked because you would have to register to view)


I personally think Steyn has hit the nail on the head here. The Left has once again misjudged the whole strategic situation, just like with the Berlin Wall.

All hail Mr Steyn.

[Aladdin]

LOL. Let me look through old issues of Private Eye tonight- several of them detail the many hilarious predictions regarding Iraq by the great Steyn.

One or two come to mind: as the war broke out he predicted that by that time the following year (i.e. March 2004) Iraq would be a "flourishing democracy" or at least the "least badly governed country in the Middle East".

And when by mid-May 2003 Bush had declared hostilities over but insurgency attacks continued, Steyn predicted that the attacks would fizzle out or the insurgents wiped out by US troops "within a few weeks".

As for the article itself, its one monumental load of bollocks, lies and wishful thinking by a desperate ultra right wing neo-con anxious to give the impression that everything is well and going according to Plan.

All hail Mr Steyn indeed...

[The Matadore]

Are you denying that Mubarak has in fact amended the constitution? Or that 8 million Iraqis voted? Or that the Palestinians have rejected suicide death cults in favour of democracy? Or that Assad is getting worried about his own people?

Quite pathetic, I am almost certain that you didnt even read it.

[Aladdin]

Why is all this happening? Answer: January 30

Nuff said... :rolleyes:

[The Matadore]

Nuff said...

Why isnt he correct then?

[freethepeeps]

I've met 9 year old Palestinians who have a better rounded critique of the democratic process than the Matadore.

Mubarak is playing games...... but then our "great leaders" are incapable of anything but lipservice to ideals such as 'democracy, freedom and justice'.

Nabulsi (http://www.guardian.co.uk/israel/comment/0,10551,1427740,00.html) has some cutting commentary on the Palestinian "Reform" conference held in London today. The one that was going to be a peace conference until Israel refused to attend, cos it might actrually be called on to observe law :rolleyes:

But if the calamitous mistakes of the Oslo process are not to be repeated, a demonstration of good governance by the international community itself would be more than welcome.

Fairness and transparency in dealing with the conflict would be a good start. There has been no partner for peace in the Middle East for years, and the absent partner is Israel, not the Palestinians. Ariel Sharon's absolute rejection of an international political process is the heart of the problem. The real question for the conference is: where is Israel? Why is it permitted to block the peace process, hold Palestinian land and relieve itself of any international obligations, while the Palestinians are scapegoated? The insistence that Friday's suicide bomb in Tel Aviv broke the ceasefire, when 25 Palestinians had been killed by Israel since it began, means that there is no transparent benchmark for assessing who is killing the chances for peace.

Good governance means applying principles that you are happy to apply to other conflicts. Citing UN security resolutions on the inadmissability of the acquisition of territory by force everywhere but occupied Palestine is not good governance. Encouraging Iraqi exiles and refugees to participate in elections while treating Palestinian refugees as pariahs is not applying democratic principles that the international community seems to want to teach the Palestinians. We Palestinians need no lessons in democracy - in the past 10 years Palestinians have resisted concerted attempts to transform our institutions into agencies that represent Israeli occupation needs.

The Matadore might well be blind to the hypocrisy of our "great democracies" - the Arab street is NOT!!!!!

[Aladdin]

Because it's bollocks, simplistic and from a typically arrogant Western point of view that doesn't even attempt to comprehend the history of the region.

It ignores the very real fact that things in Iraq are getting worse, not better; that insurgents are in their highest numbers yet; that absolutely nothing has changed on the streets since the election and people continue to die in their hundreds (115+ yesterday, the biggest single attack since the invasion).

It pretends that the citizens of Lebanon and Palestine have somehow woken to the "wonders" of western-imposed democracy thanks to the elections in Iraq- which were flawed and boycotted by millions, incidentally). It even appears to suggest that Palestinians, until now supporters of suicide bombings galore, have had a change of mind thanks to the miracle of democracy and now object to any attack.

Is an absurdly simplistic, misleading and completely wrong article from beginning to end.

You might as well argue that Bush winning the election last November has made all the terrorists and dictators see sense and has made any changes possible.

[The Matadore]

who have a better rounded critique of the democratic process than the Matadore.

However, you would agree that some form of democracy is better than none, wouldnt you? You couldnt call yourself a democrat otherwise.

the Arab street is NOT!!!!!

Tell me, is the arab street 'on fire' with anti american sentiment at the moment? Are there millions of angry arabs marching to attack US forces because they have realised that they too can have some form of representational government? Nope, you are wrong.

simplistic and from a typically arrogant Western point of view that doesn't even attempt to comprehend the history of the region.

Ahhh, the typical leftist/pessimist/hypocrite who thinks that Western democracy is somehow 'not suited' to the Arab world. This viewpoint is racist and degrading not only to the vast majority of Arabs who do in fact want democracy, but especially to those 8 million Iraqis who now have it.

insurgents are in their highest numbers yet

Thereis no way in hell you could know that.

115+ yesterday, the biggest single attack since the invasion

The so called 'insurgents' are getting desperate. They KNOW that a democratic Iraq will reject them. Why the hell do you think they are fighting so hard against one?

It pretends that the citizens of Lebanon and Palestine have somehow woken to the "wonders" of western-imposed democracy

Why cant they? Are they not allowed to?

which were flawed and boycotted by millions, incidentally).

Boycotted by millions yes, but boycotted by the SUnni minority who detest the fact that they will have to work WITH the shia majority rather than stamping all over them as they have done for generations.

have had a change of mind thanks to the miracle of democracy and now object to any attack.

Why wouldnt they? With the scumbag Arafat dead they have a real chance to move on, the Death Cultists are opposed to that - and the Palestinians will reject them as well before too long.

Is an absurdly simplistic, misleading and completely wrong article from beginning to end.

Whats absurd is that someone like yourself - a man of the left who should support democracy and democratic instutions, is rooting for the whole Middle East to fall into anarchy so he can blame it on the USA. Thats what it all comes back to - because the USA is the primary driver in these democratic reforms, they must be necessarily bad.

You might as well argue that Bush winning the election last November has made all the terrorists and dictators see sense and has made any changes possible.

In fact, I shall argue that, thats a very good point Aladdin. Unlike the spinelessSPanish voters, who turned tail and ran from the tasks facing them, the US electorate persisted with the one man they could trust who had the vision to bring the Mid East into a new era of Democracy and enlightenment - George W Bush.

[freethepeeps]

However, you would agree that some form of democracy is better than none, wouldnt you? You couldnt call yourself a democrat otherwise.



Tell me, is the arab street 'on fire' with anti american sentiment at the moment? Are there millions of angry arabs marching to attack US forces because they have realised that they too can have some form of representational government? Nope, you are wrong.


Me, a democrat? lol

Have you not seen the pictures of the slaughtered US soldiers in Iraq? Is that because the "democratic" United States is doing its very bestest to keep them OUT OF PUBLIC VIEW? Even flag covered coffins are out of bounds.

Do you not understand the sickening hypocrisy of the US setting up its own TV station in the Middle East, and then leaning on Qatar to suppress Al Jazeera's coverage?

Good grief man, do you even stop to think before the fingers start thumping out their blind acceptance of palpable bullshit?

:wave:

[The Matadore]

Me, a democrat? lol

I take that to mean you do not support democracy and democratic institutions in general?

that because the "democratic" United States is doing its very bestest to keep them OUT OF PUBLIC VIEW?

Nothing wrong with that. But, thing is, the US public is a lot cleverer than you would think. They KNOW that they will suffer casualties, and they are WILLING to. Better to sort problems out at their cause (in this case the Mid East) than sit back and wait for them to bite you (9/11).

Good grief man, do you even stop to think before the fingers start thumping out their blind acceptance of palpable bullshit?

Good grief man, do you even stop to think before the fingers start thumping out their blind acceptance of palpable bullshit?

:lol:

[Blagsta]

I take that to mean you do not support democracy and democratic institutions in general?

Matadore and his grasp of basic politics. LOL! :D

[Aladdin]

Ahhh, the typical leftist/pessimist/hypocrite who thinks that Western democracy is somehow 'not suited' to the Arab world. This viewpoint is racist and degrading not only to the vast majority of Arabs who do in fact want democracy, but especially to those 8 million Iraqis who now have it. Who said democracy isn't suited? What is not suited is for a universally hated foreign power (at least on those parts) who for 2 decades couldn't give a flying fuck about democracy in Iraq and helped and supported its ruler, to decide one day it has no further use for said ruler and to illegally bomb, invade and occupy the place and install a puppet regime.

Any "democracy" that emerges of that has but very slim prospects indeed...

Talk about hypocrites...




Thereis no way in hell you could know that. Oh yeah?

Pentagon: insurgents in Iraq around 150,000, conducting 60 attacks a day (http://www.reuters.com/newsArticle.jhtml?type=topNews&storyID=7666210)

Do you want me to tell you how many insurgents were in mid 2003?


The so called 'insurgents' are getting desperate. They KNOW that a democratic Iraq will reject them. Why the hell do you think they are fighting so hard against one? I don't think they're getting desperate at all. In any case their immediate goal is for the expulsion of the foreign invader. And this, most Iraqis sympathise with.


Why cant they? Are they not allowed to? Apparently the Chileans weren't allowed to when the US decided so, and you had no problem whatsoever with it... :rolleyes:


Why wouldnt they? With the scumbag Arafat dead they have a real chance to move on, the Death Cultists are opposed to that - and the Palestinians will reject them as well before too long. Well for starters the scumbag Sharon is still in power, and currently has no intention of withdrawing from the totality or even much of occupied Palestine.

And if he does not agree to remove his cancerous illegal settlements from the West Bank soon, expect the truce to collapse anon.

If you think for a minute that the elections in Iraq had anything to do whatsoever with "Palestinians" (in whichever numbers they were... 50? 100?) protesting against suicide bombings, you're more deluded than I thought.



Whats absurd is that someone like yourself - a man of the left who should support democracy and democratic instutions, is rooting for the whole Middle East to fall into anarchy so he can blame it on the USA. Thats what it all comes back to - because the USA is the primary driver in these democratic reforms, they must be necessarily bad. Who said I support the Middle East falling into anarchy? I'm simply telling you what it is very likely going to happen.

And all because of the illegal and repulsive actions of the USA.

How fucking hypocrite can you get? Why I haven't heard you demand democracy for Uzbekistan (could it be because they're the chimp's new best friends), or denounce your idols the Americans for supporting Saddam for 20 years? Not to mention overthrowing legitimate democracies such as Chile's?



In fact, I shall argue that, thats a very good point Aladdin. Unlike the spinelessSPanish voters, who turned tail and ran from the tasks facing them, the US electorate persisted with the one man they could trust who had the vision to bring the Mid East into a new era of Democracy and enlightenment - George W Bush. :lol: :D

See? Anyone can be a Mark Steyn. You lot are so gullible the articles would write themselves. Hell, I wouldn't be surprised if behind this "Mark Steyn" character hides some opportunist simply cashing in on the limitless naivety and sheep mentality of the neo-cons of this earth.

I might re-invent myself as a neo-con yet... Easiest way to make money I reckon.

[Yerascrote]

How fucking hypocrite can you get? Why I haven't heard you demand democracy for Uzbekistan (could it be because they're the chimp's new best friends), or denounce your idols the Americans for supporting Saddam for 20 years? Not to mention overthrowing legitimate democracies such as Chile's?


i've heard you mention these valid points so many times and it's always fallen on deaf ears or got some vague mediocre response...truth is...people like mat etc haven't got one ounce of compassion in their bones...like it's ok for USA to bomb the bits out of a country with an evil dictator but it's alright for another country with an evil dictator to kill their people becuase it's good for the good ole US of A....and you call us hypocrite matadore :lol:

[The Matadore]

What is not suited is for a universally hated foreign power (at least on those parts) who for 2 decades couldn't give a flying fuck about democracy in Iraq

Yes , but the USA had other, more important geo-strategic concerns - in this case the containment of the Soviet empire and its anti-US offshoots. This meant they had to support a number of odious, authoritarian regimes for the greater good - the containment of the (much worse) totalitarian regime of the USSR. Democracy often had to take second place to stability then. But Now, the USA has a different primary objective - as GWB said - the spread of Democracy.

it has no further use for said ruler and to illegally bomb, invade and occupy the place and install a puppet regime.

It wasnt illegal in the first place. Puppet regime? I dont know which government you are talking about, the one currently in power is being constructed with the democratic approval of over 8 million Iraqis.

Any "democracy" that emerges of that has but very slim prospects indeed...

Pathetic. Lets not give it any help, shall we? Lets not try and encourage this democracy to bloom in one of the most troubled locales in the whole world because the USA wants it to happen! Lets leave the Arabs to rot in their own hatred and filth, lets not lift a finger to help them.

Pentagon: insurgents in Iraq around 150,000, conducting 60 attacks a day

That article says nothing about there being 150000 insurgents.

I don't think they're getting desperate at all.

Anyone who resorts to a cruel car boming of MEN QUEUEING TO GET A JOB seems pretty FUCKING desperate to me.

Get a moral compass.

In any case their immediate goal is for the expulsion of the foreign invader. And this, most Iraqis sympathise with.

And you would know this how? Are you part of the world wide terror network Aladdin? In any case, how could Iraqi men joining the police force be considered foreigh invaders?

I'm simply telling you what it is very likely going to happen.

No, I think you are telling me what you WANT to happen.

And all because of the illegal and repulsive actions of the USA.

A lot of the meaningless destruction in Iraq can be placed squarely at the door of the European powers refusal and cowardice in refusing to send any aid to Iraq.

supporting Saddam for 20 years? Not to mention overthrowing legitimate democracies such as Chile's?

Learn about global politics, learn about what kind of decisions great powers have to make for the greater good.

and sheep mentality

You and your ilk are the sheep. Brainwashed by anti american anti war leftist propaganda, you come up with the same old bullshit arguments for every strategic question - it was Americas fault.

How predictable, and sad.

[Yerascrote]

it's funny how you just simply assume america are the good guys matadore...who says they're right....just because they have a military hegemony over the rest of the world...why lick up to them... when i got interested in politics i had no bias or view...i saw what i saw and i know where my alleigences lie and it's not with America...neither is it with the loony left or whatever you cal them...it's with humanity...there is a lot of shit going on in this world and it's going unnoticed...form both america and other countries...i just think america can do a lot more to hlep it's own race...it is suppossed to be the flag bearer of democracy...but what does it do...blow up countries for oil...pump unlimited amounts of shit into mother earth (not that you'd give a shit either way)... make the tensions between east and west far far worse than they should or could be.... and thats why a fucking tyrant lunatic is more prefferable to that fucking death country across the sea....you need to open your eyes our fella.

[Aladdin]

Yadda yadda blah Commies yadda dah the Devil Himself bladi bla good old US protecting the earth against world domination by Commies yaddi dah.
Get a life mate.



It wasnt illegal in the first place. Oh yes it was.


Puppet regime? I dont know which government you are talking about, the one currently in power is being constructed with the democratic approval of over 8 million Iraqis. The 'government' that was installed in mid 2003 by the US naturally. Whichever government is born from this flawed election has very slim chance of retaining whichever 'control' the authorities there have today over the country.


Pathetic. Lets not give it any help, shall we? Lets not try and encourage this democracy to bloom in one of the most troubled locales in the whole world because the USA wants it to happen! Lets leave the Arabs to rot in their own hatred and filth, lets not lift a finger to help them. You and your friends the neo-cons and PNAC advocates are the only ones "rotting in hatred and filth". You little racist idiot.



That article says nothing about there being 150000 insurgents.
Well I'll be damned. You're right for once. Let me try to dig it out actual figures for you...


Anyone who resorts to a cruel car boming of MEN QUEUEING TO GET A JOB seems pretty FUCKING desperate to me.

Get a moral compass. Anyone who happily bombs nations and causes the deaths of more than 100,000 civilians for the sole purpose of securing oil revenues seem like a bunch of fucking murdering cunts to me a trillion times worse than any insurgent.

Don't you agree?



And you would know this how? Are you part of the world wide terror network Aladdin? In any case, how could Iraqi men joining the police force be considered foreigh invaders? As you well know there are many groups fighting in Iraq with many different objectives. Far from all being "terrorists" as the neo-cons claim there are all sorts out there. From the Al Qaida-affiliated groups who would like the country to descend into a civil war and the eventual creation of one (or several) Islamic states to countless individuals and small groups fighting the foreign invader.

Britain and the US and their illegal war are the only ones to blame for the appearance in Iraq of the former. In the meantime the latter count with the support of many if not most Iraqis. Nearly everyone wants the invader out. And after looking at the abuse, torture, needless killings or the genocide in Falluja, it's not difficult to see why...


No, I think you are telling me what you WANT to happen. Of course you are.



A lot of the meaningless destruction in Iraq can be placed squarely at the door of the European powers refusal and cowardice in refusing to send any aid to Iraq. No. 100% of the meaningless destruction in Iraq can be placed squarely at the door of the bases from which the B52s took off and dropped thousands of tonnes of high explosives over a sovereign nation.


Learn about global politics, learn about what kind of decisions great powers have to make for the greater good. LOL!



You and your ilk are the sheep. Brainwashed by anti american anti war leftist propaganda, you come up with the same old bullshit arguments for every strategic question - it was Americas fault.

How predictable, and sad. Er.. it is the US government's fault.

As it has been proven to you time after time after time.

In the meantime, you continue to fail to provide any evidence whatsoever for those claims of "anti-americanism" you throw around. So I'll ask you once more (the fourth time this week I believe): can you point us to any anti-american comments I (or indeed anyone else) have made, that make me or these boards "anti-American"?

Muppet.

[budda]

It is easy to suggest that there is some big wave of up risings and that democracy is coming to the Arab world. I heard a Bush advisor linking Lebanon to Bush's speech about 'stand and we stand with you' which sounded a little over the top.

However, there are some positive signs which should be encoraged. I think more than anything Ukraine has served as a good beacon.

[Clandestine]

Please bb, don't be so naive. The Ukraine was nothing more than yet another in an increasing line of examples of the "behind the scene" geo-political machinations of Washington (and of course uninvestigated and unreported by mainstream media, BBC included) carried out by the CIA in inciting uprisings and destabilisation in sovereign nations key to the PNAC chessgame.

the Orange revolution was simply a PR coup made to appear to represent the majority will of the Ukrainian people when in fact it only comprised a small, but vocal (and readily televised) minority in the capitol city itself.

That election, like its US predecessors and that of Afghanistan and Iraq was declared for the pre-selected candidate(s) in the furtherance of western corporate hegemonic interests. Indeed the very concept of transparent, fair, and objectively verifiable democratic elections has become a thing of the past since the bulk of our western societies are content simply to believe that whoever was "officially" declared the winner must legitimately be so.

As the old addage goes, it isn't those who vote who decide but those who "count" the votes. I have grave doubts that, under the increasingly prevailing global ethos being fostered by the PNAC cabal in their bid for global dominance, any actual counts even take place. Much easier to simply rally the sheeple to mark their ballots so they feel they are "participating" and then go ahead and install the desired face. Yuschenko was the clear darling for US and European corporate influx into Ukraine and the most acquiescent puppet to press Russia further into a corner.

I suggest you read Brzezinski's "The Grand Chessboard: American Primacy and its Geostrategic Imperatives". Once you've seen just how power crazed the PNAC are in their ambitions you might appreciate how the realities of current events are far more contrived than the media wishes the public to understand.

[budda]

Well the protesters in Lebanon seemed to believe in the Ukraine example, so whether it was a fraud or not makes little odds to them.

[freethepeeps]

I take that to mean you do not support democracy and democratic institutions in general?



Nothing wrong with that. But, thing is, the US public is a lot cleverer than you would think. They KNOW that they will suffer casualties, and they are WILLING to. Better to sort problems out at their cause (in this case the Mid East) than sit back and wait for them to bite you (9/11).



Good grief man, do you even stop to think before the fingers start thumping out their blind acceptance of palpable bullshit?

:lol:

You had no need to comment on USG attempts to control the flow of information, other than to say that Americans know soldiers are dying and welcome it, as a way of making the world a better place :rolleyes:

So, why doesn't their govt. want them to see photos of flag draped coffins then?

Now, when you talk about "democracy" and "democratic institutions", I wonder exactly what you mean.

Why don't you point me to a "democratic institution" , and I'll tell you whether or not I support it.

You might like to define what you mean by "democracy" as well - I think we're thinking about different things - for instance, I wouldn't class voting every 4 or 5 years in an election, where millions is spent on disinformation, and where no-one believes that their elected representative gives a shit as a democracy.


:)

[The Matadore]

Get a life mate.

You are a fucking imbacile.

Oh yes it was.

No.

Whichever government is born from this flawed election has very slim chance of retaining whichever 'control' the authorities there have today over the country

The Election was flawed, but so are all elections. The point is that this was the largest democratic election in the history of the Arab world, and even Freedland in The Guardian admits that things are beginning to change:

http://politics.guardian.co.uk/columnist/story/0,9321,1428453,00.html

You and your friends the neo-cons and PNAC advocates are the only ones "rotting in hatred and filth". You little racist idiot.

See my first reply in this post.

Anyone who happily bombs nations and causes the deaths of more than 100,000 civilians for the sole purpose of securing oil revenues seem like a bunch of fucking murdering cunts to me a trillion times worse than any insurgent.

There is so much wrong with that post that I dont think Ill even bother addressing it, you are so enveloped in your own ego and ideology that you dont listen.

As you well know there are many groups fighting in Iraq with many different objectives. And other random bullshit which I couldnt possibly know.

Until you can prove anything here, dont bother posting it.

100% of the meaningless destruction in Iraq can be placed squarely at the door of the bases from which the B52s

Dont forget Saddam and the insurgents now.

In the meantime, you continue to fail to provide any evidence whatsoever for those claims of "anti-americanism" you throw around

I dont need direct evidence. Time after time when you post, your hatred of the SUA comes through. Whether its about their support for Israel, their military hegemony, their foreign policy, their crusade against Communism and now radical Islamism or even their democratically elected leaders - its plainly there for all to see.

[freethepeeps]

Time after time when you post, your hatred of the SUA comes through.

Presumably a cross between a SUV and the USA ......


:wave:

[Aladdin]

double post

[Aladdin]

You are a fucking imbacile. Ooooooooooooh. Personal insults now eh? Losing the plot eh?

You know very well that your pathetic attempts to justify the horrendous and illegal actions of your idols with the absurd excuse of big old bad commies taking over the world otherwise are too ridiculous for words.

Not that many of the 20-something countries the US has bombed since WWII were communist or going that way. The case of Chile is a particularly good one. Can you tell the difference between a democratically elected socialist government and a communist dictatorship?

Are you so fucking righteous that you believe your idols have the right to overthrow democracies because "they know best" for the citizens of said country?

I really struggle to imagine what kind of education you've had or who could have brainwashed your to such appalling extent.



The Election was flawed, but so are all elections. The point is that this was the largest democratic election in the history of the Arab world, and even Freedland in The Guardian admits that things are beginning to change:

http://politics.guardian.co.uk/columnist/story/0,9321,1428453,00.html NOT because of the election. That was the whole point of the article. Mark 'deluded laughable neo-con' Steyn was trying to claim the election in Iraq was responsible for recent events in Lebanon and Palestine. That is simply the biggest load of bollocks the world has ever seen.

Do I really have to explain to you why?



See my first reply in this post. Ooooooooooh. Personal insults twice now. Boy, are we angry today.

For the record, you ARE a racist idiot. That's not an insult, that's a fact. Your previous post about "Arabs rotting in the own filth and hatred" speaks for itself. And so does a certain post of you from a year or two ago, when you admitted you considered the lives of Arabs inferior to those of Jews or Westerners.

Racist.



To here is so much wrong with that post that I dont think Ill even bother addressing it, you are so enveloped in your own ego and ideology that you dont listen.
Oh yeah? Please indulge us...



Until you can prove anything here, dont bother posting it. And where would that policy leave YOU Matadore? :lol:




Dont forget Saddam and the insurgents now. How many insurgents were operating in Iraq before the illegal war took place?

Was Saddam in a habit of dropping 2,000 bombs on his own towns and cities?



I dont need direct evidence. Time after time when you post, your hatred of the SUA comes through. Whether its about their support for Israel, their military hegemony, their foreign policy, their crusade against Communism and now radical Islamism or even their democratically elected leaders - its plainly there for all to see. Oh yes you do. Because the above is bollocks. And even if it were true, you continue to ignore the fact that opposing the US government, no matter how fiercerly, has nothing to do with 'anti-americansim'. As it has been pointed out to you hundreds of times.

So do provide the evidence- or shut your mouth on that regard.

[MuezzinMaus]

it's kind of funny to read these posts. you americans and british seem to get more worked up about iraq than someone who was born there! :p

i was talking to some friends in baghdad and they say that violence since the elections has really dropped off. they don't know if it's people holding their breath to see what happens next or maybe the rebels have finally learned the quickest way to get rid of the americans is to play nice. i only hope the jihadi/islamist/whatever foreigners go away. they will be the ones who will slow us down the most. it's my biggest fear they will remain behind even after the americans go away.

[BlackArab]

Please bb, don't be so naive. The Ukraine was nothing more than yet another in an increasing line of examples of the "behind the scene" geo-political machinations of Washington (and of course uninvestigated and unreported by mainstream media, BBC included) carried out by the CIA in inciting uprisings and destabilisation in sovereign nations key to the PNAC chessgame.

the Orange revolution was simply a PR coup made to appear to represent the majority will of the Ukrainian people when in fact it only comprised a small, but vocal (and readily televised) minority in the capitol city itself.


http://www.guardian.co.uk/international/story/0,,1360080,00.html

You need to read the right papers Clandy ;)

[freethepeeps]

Apparently the Matadore, Bush, Blair and Straw speak with the same forked tongue. All would like to pretend that there is a "march towards democracy in the Middle East"

Seamus Milne (http://www.guardian.co.uk/print/0,3858,5144581-111416,00.html) provides some pointers that show up their lies, and suggests how Straw et al could promote "real freedom" in the Middle East.

What has actually taken place since 9/11 and the Iraq war is a relentless expansion of US control of the Middle East, of which the threats to Syria are a part. The Americans now have a military presence in Saudi Arabia, Iraq, the UAE, Kuwait, Bahrain, Oman and Qatar - and in not one of those countries did an elected government invite them in. Of course Arabs want an end to tyrannical regimes, most of which have been supported over the years by the US, Britain and France: that is the source of much anti-western Muslim anger. The dictators remain in place by US licence, which can be revoked at any time - and managed elections are being used as another mechanism for maintaining pro-western regimes rather than spreading democracy.

Jack Straw is right about one thing: there's no happy future in the regional status quo. His government could play a crucial role in helping to promote a real programme for liberty and democracy in the Middle East: it would need to include a commitment to allow independent media such as al-Jazeera to flourish; an end to military and financial support for despots; and a withdrawal of all foreign forces from the region. Now that would herald a real dawn of freedom.

:yes:

[morrocan roll]

after the americans go away.
don't hold your breath.