CNN reported no plane hit the Pentagon........

[Senor Miguel]

and i shouldn't have to keep harking on about this because it's pretty blatant, if you still have doubts watch this (http://www.prisonplanet.com/articles/february2005/250205noplane.htm)..........this is only one of about 4 news reports on the day of the crash that have been suppressed and never aired again or commented on........there was one on Fox news where the reporter describes the planes hitting the towers as 'blacked out non-commercial airliners', and another one on cnn talking about the sound of bomb explosions just before the towers came down, again never commented on afterwards............but the first one is the only one i have seen on the net............tell me am i still mad?........i know it's much easier to just ignore this, the implications are too scary for most.....

[freethepeeps]

Seriously, there are big holes in the whole official story, but trying to work out what happened will fry your brain.....

:impissed:

[Senor Miguel]

yeah tell me about it.......im not happy being lied to though, they must think so little of the general population's intelligence to pull a stunt like this.........but they must be right bcos they have got away with it..........thing is, most ppl will look at this, maybe think about it for 5 mins, then go about their business and forget they ever saw it, because they don't want to acknowledge there is some shady shit going on..........even if it comes straight from CNN.

[groovechampion]

A plane hit the pentagon!

It was such chaos just after the planes hit that some news teams didn't get their facts straight.

http://urbanlegends.about.com/library/blflight77.htm

[Senor Miguel]

A plane hit the pentagon!

It was such chaos just after the planes hit that some news teams didn't get their facts straight.

http://urbanlegends.about.com/library/blflight77.htm

are you telling me that the plane disappeared amidst all this chaos? they're pretty big planes, how could a news reporter get that wrong, did the chaos also ruin his eyesight, c'mon that is lame.........also, did you actually watch the report? the guy says the walls only collapsed after 45 minutes, meaning they fell down from the stress, if a plane hits a building let me tell you the walls fall down straight away..........you're right tho, they didn't get their 'facts' straight, that's why they buried these reports.

[Man Of Kent]

Yeah and man didn't land on the moon, and it really *is* made of cheese, Diana was murdered by MI5, JF Kennedy was killed by the Mafia/CIA, R Kennedy was too...

So many conspiracy theories, so little time (or inclination) to care about them all...

[Mist]

God, someone's dragged up this old chestnut again.

Bets on how long until we see the pictures where they compare wingspan and holes in the wall.

*sigh*

[Senor Miguel]

Yeah and man didn't land on the moon, and it really *is* made of cheese, Diana was murdered by MI5, JF Kennedy was killed by the Mafia/CIA, R Kennedy was too...

So many conspiracy theories, so little time (or inclination) to care about them all...

MoK if you don't want to comment on the topic at hand, why don't you stay out of the thread........are you suggesting i believe all conspiracy theories? twat.....if you don't have time or inclination don't post, simple isnt it...........what do you have to say about the CNN report?......

[Man Of Kent]

It was a comment about the number of theories, all with a little evidence but nothing substantive... with the internet and 24-hour news media (which brings quick uncheked reports) these things develop a life of their own.

If you don't want comment, don't fucking post. Jeez.

[Senor Miguel]

It was a comment about the number of theories, all with a little evidence but nothing substantive...

lets stick to the point, tell me how a plane crashes into a building yet the wall stays standing for 45 mins, tell me how and i'll shut up right now........and tell me how a trained news reporter misses a commercial airliner.........maybe you need to watch the report again.

If you don't want comment, don't fucking post. Jeez.

i welcome relevant comment, not sidetracking about diana, aliens and whatnot ffs.......

[Yerascrote]

it seems like middle eastern oil fields are worth more than the lives of 3,000 innocent people...even if there was no conspiracy Bush could easily have stopped the attacks...definately something fishy going on and it'll probably never be revealed...it actually might...in the year 2087 when we're living on the moon because we've destroyed the earth and no one cares by that stage

[Senor Miguel]

Actualy I believe with flaps extended to 30 degrees and gear down the maximum speed is something like 160 kts on a Boeing 757... This is around the 140 mph mark... For landing I think it would be in the 140 kts range - 121 mph.
From a pilots point of view I really struggle to see how you'd line a plane up with a surface area as small as that of the front of the Pentagon. To land you'd need to lose altitude at a rate of about 500 feet per minute, displayed on the VSI... In an ILS lock landing situation you are locked onto a pencil like beam sent at the correct angle from the end of the runway - You tune into the runways ILS frequency and a marker showing your position relative to this directional beam is shown on the primary flight display (PFI) allowing you to fly the plane down the "wire" and land in exactly the right spot.
Now, without this setup you'd have to land in the same kind of way, but without this instrument que - losing altitude at exactly the correct rate so that you would hit the pentagon in exactly the right spot, lining the nose up to hit the side of the building rather than glancing off the top or landing short etc.
Personaly I think this would be impossible, especialy for a terrorist pilot with little air time. Just this, without the rest of the evidence has alarm bells ringing!

interesting point j, but i think you will lose everyone on the technicalities.........my point is far simpler, how does a wall defy the law of gravity for 45 mins after having a plane smash into it?.........c'mon, ANYONE??

[Yerascrote]

interesting point j, but i think you will lose everyone on the technicalities.........my point is far simpler, how does a wall defy the law of gravity for 45 mins after having a plane smash into it?.........c'mon, ANYONE??

chaos theory :confused: :p

[Senor Miguel]

So what would the point of this conspiracy be? That's where it will get interesting and men in black will start knocking on my door...

lol, that's for another thread.............i'm simply trying to demonstrate that a plane never hit the pentagon, the CNN said as much then realised they weren't towing the official media line and shut up...........if you can't see this you are a one celled ameoba...........but the challenge is there, prove me wrong, please........and ill eat my shorts.

[Senor Miguel]

sssh j, you might warp some fragile minds on these boards........

[Kermit]

MoK was merely illustrating that this conspiracy theory is as big a pile of rancid sweaty bollocks as the theory that Diana was murdered by Interflora.

Personally I believe that there is a lot that isn't being said, but that those planes genuinely hit those building. I have a suspicion that Bush Junior knew it was going to happen- he didn't seem to suprised in Florida- and let it happen anyway for political expediency, but I don't believe that it was the CIA wot dun it.

[Senor Miguel]

MoK was merely illustrating that this conspiracy theory is as big a pile of rancid sweaty bollocks as the theory that Diana was murdered by Interflora.

Personally I believe that there is a lot that isn't being said, but that those planes genuinely hit those building. I have a suspicion that Bush Junior knew it was going to happen- he didn't seem to suprised in Florida- and let it happen anyway for political expediency, but I don't believe that it was the CIA wot dun it.

right, forget the other planes for now, if you think a plane hit the pentagon then do please answer my question.......forget the CIA, Bush, whoever, how does a plane hit a building but leave the wall standing? and this is no hanglider its a great big jetliner..........go on.......the only pile of rancid sweaty bollocks are the people who covered this very simple fact up.

[Kermit]

Go and look at pictures of the disaster in Amsterdam in the early 1990s, where a freight Boeing 747 hit a block of flats near Schiphol airport. It did similar damage to the damage sustained by the Pentagon, in fact, and there was a similar lack of plane afterwards.

[morrocan roll]

apollo i'm with you.
i believe totaly that no plane hit the pentagon.
funny how the only part of such a huge building that was hit ...was the part that had been covered in canvas drapes for six months beforehand. so called renovation work ...the rest of this huge complex wasn't renovated though.
inside that shrouded part of the building an engine was being placed and other very flimsy bits of evidence.
the people behind all this were the american government ...all the way up.
all those who ridicule using the conspiracy label are to afraid to look at the actual evidence cos ...it realy is so fucking outragous and beyond belief that the people behind it all were banking on this mentality all along.
there is now very ;little they cannot do ...

[Senor Miguel]

that's not my question is it.........? did the block of flats in Schiphol stay standing for 45 minutes then decide to fall down?.........c'mon everyone is avoiding my simple question......

[morrocan roll]

Go and look at pictures of the disaster in Amsterdam in the early 1990s, where a freight Boeing 747 hit a block of flats near Schiphol airport. It did similar damage to the damage sustained by the Pentagon, in fact, and there was a similar lack of plane afterwards.
that plane crashed into a very flimsy building compared to the armour plated pentagon.
the plane was there ...but buried under and mixed in with the debris.
if you follow that story further you will see that huge sections of plane had to dug out and carted away.
nearly all the seats were in tact for a start ...

[morrocan roll]

http://img152.exs.cx/img152/5867/infowars9114nb.gif

[morrocan roll]

http://img210.exs.cx/img210/5747/warning9no.jpg

[Senor Miguel]

so i guess if noone can give me a decent answer then de facto you have to accept that something else hit the pentagon.........and you have to ask yourself why the media and govt. keep telling you it was a plane, if they're lying about that what else are they lying about........and the questions only get scarier from there........

[Mist]

When I get myself another copy of flight sim I'll test out my theory by smashing a plane into the pentagon a few times just to see how easy it would be to aim it that accurately and get a decent glideslope at low speed..

It's illegal to fly simulated planes into government buildings ;)

[freethepeeps]

so i guess if noone can give me a decent answer then de facto you have to accept that something else hit the pentagon.........and you have to ask yourself why the media and govt. keep telling you it was a plane, if they're lying about that what else are they lying about........and the questions only get scarier from there........

The only ones who can give you the answer, are the ones who are going to make sure that you never get the answer

I don't think you can argue that if no poster on thesite has given you, what you consider a satisfactory answer in less than a day, that de facto your theory is correct. It isn't that easy....

[Senor Miguel]

The only ones who can give you the answer, are the ones who are going to make sure that you never get the answer

I don't think you can argue that if no poster on thesite has given you, what you consider a satisfactory answer in less than a day, that de facto your theory is correct. It isn't that easy....

i dunno, maybe we have some budding physicists on these boards who can explain how a plane punctures several layers of armour plated walls but leaves it standing for 45 mins............??

and i'm only goading people for their opinions, most people can't explain this and so will just ignore it........i will rethink my theory if anyone can give a reasonable explanation, this offer is open for tomorrow, next week, next month.........but if you cannot explain this, then surely a plane did not hit the pentagon, it's that easy.......

[twisted_trinity]

planes don't dissapper that quickly...even with that ammount of heat and force...it doesn't add up.

and monsanto, mc donalds, and the bush family are plotting to take over the world. and if you don't believe me then you are all fools....

[Mist]

planes don't dissapper that quickly...even with that ammount of heat and force...it doesn't add up.

and monsanto, mc donalds, and the bush family are plotting to take over the world. and if you don't believe me then you are all fools....


Cool, free burgers.

[groovechampion]

i dunno, maybe we have some budding physicists on these boards who can explain how a plane punctures several layers of armour plated walls but leaves it standing for 45 mins............??

and i'm only goading people for their opinions, most people can't explain this and so will just ignore it........i will rethink my theory if anyone can give a reasonable explanation, this offer is open for tomorrow, next week, next month.........but if you cannot explain this, then surely a plane did not hit the pentagon, it's that easy.......


How about all the eyewitness accounts of the plane?

Washington Post eyewitness account (http://www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/wp%2Ddyn/A14365%2D2001Sep11%3Flanguage=printer)
BBC - Many eyewitness accounts (http://newsvote.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/talking_point/1537530.stm)
Eyewitness accounts (http://archives.cnn.com/2001/US/09/11/attack.in.their.words/)
The Guardian Eyewitness Accounts (http://www.guardian.co.uk/wtccrash/story/0%2C1300%2C550486%2C00.html)
Eyewitness accnts (http://www.usatoday.com/news/nation/2001/09/11/attack%2Dusat.htm)

There are many more, but I suppose you don't trust the media? Prefer crazy one-man operation websites it seems.

How about the fact that the Black box from the plane was recovered?

Black box (http://www.firehouse.com/terrorist/14%5FAPboxes.html)


The fact that there WAS plane wreckage?

The fact that all the they recovered and identified of the remains of all but one of the people known to be aboard Flight 77?

Cant be arsed posting links for the rest but if you check out the site that I posted originally that you didn't read you can find them for yourself.

[Man Of Kent]

CIA plants.

All of them.

:p

[groovechampion]

planes don't dissapper that quickly...even with that ammount of heat and force...it doesn't add up.
....
Well according to a lot of people who know how to add up a lot better than you; i.e. aviation experts and people who know about such things, they can vapourise to an extent. But, they didn't, they found wreckage and the remains of most of the passangers.

and monsanto, mc donalds, and the bush family are plotting to take over the world. and if you don't believe me then you are all fools....
Yeaaaah thats right, surrrrrrre you're not crazy :thumb: hehe

[Senor Miguel]

fact is 90% of the eyewitness accounts you posted are from the twin towers, there are very few ppl who claim to have seen the one that hit the pentagon........i dont know what they think they saw, there are numerous studies that show human memory is by no means foolproof or objective, if the news says it was a plane your brain will question itself......one of the links you posted the guy says it looked like a cruise missile with wings, that may well be........

and you're gonna tell me that the explosion was so fierce it vaporised virtually all of the plane, yet the black boxes are found in perfect condition.....pshhhh im not convinced........they may have recovered and identified people on board but there is no footage of them at the site is there, and how did the reporter miss all this?........in fact why is there no video footage of the plane hitting? this is after all the most heavily guarded fortress in america no?.........

and need i say it again, you still haven't answered my question...........c'mon how do walls fall down 45 mins AFTER being hit by the plane? i don't think you can comprehend the question i have asked it enough times.......

[groovechampion]

fact is 90% of the eyewitness accounts you posted are from the twin towers, there are very few ppl who claim to have seen the one that hit the pentagon........i dont know what they think they saw, one of the links you posted the guy says it looked like a cruise missile with wings, that may well be...............
Did you read the accounts?
Or did you just dismiss the evidence because you refuse to believe it?

"On a Metro train to National Airport, Allen Cleveland looked out the window to see a jet heading down toward the Pentagon. 'I thought, "There's no landing strip on that side of the subway tracks,"' he said. Before he could process that thought, he saw 'a huge mushroom cloud. The lady next to me was in absolute hysterics.'"
- "Our Plane Is Being Hijacked." Washington Post, 12 Sep 2001

"I was supposed to have been going to the Pentagon Tuesday morning at about 11:00am (EDT) and was getting ready, and thank goodness I wasn't going to be going until later. It was so shocking, I was listening to the news on what had happened in New York, and just happened to look out the window because I heard a low flying plane and then I saw it hit the Pentagon. It happened so fast... it was in the air one moment and in the building the next..."
- "U.S. Under Attack: Your Eyewitness Accounts." BBC News, 14 Sep 2001

"As I approached the Pentagon, which was still not quite in view, listening on the radio to the first reports about the World Trade Center disaster in New York, a jetliner, apparently at full throttle and not more than a couple of hundred yards above the ground, screamed overhead. ... Seconds before the Pentagon came into view a huge black cloud of smoke rose above the road ahead. I came around the bend and there was the Pentagon billowing smoke, flames and debris, blackened on one side and with a gaping hole where the airplane had hit it."
- "Eyewitness at the Pentagon." Human Events, 17 Sep 2001
"Omar Campo, a Salvadorean, was cutting the grass on the other side of the road when the plane flew over his head. 'It was a passenger plane. I think an American Airways plane,' Mr Campo said. 'I was cutting the grass and it came in screaming over my head. I felt the impact. The whole ground shook and the whole area was full of fire. I could never imagine I would see anything like that here.'"
- "Pentagon Eyewitness Accounts." The Guardian, 12 Sep 2001


"Afework Hagos, a computer programmer, was on his way to work but stuck in a traffic jam near the Pentagon when the plane flew over. 'There was a huge screaming noise and I got out of the car as the plane came over. Everybody was running away in different directions. It was tilting its wings up and down like it was trying to balance. It hit some lampposts on the way in.'"
- "Pentagon Eyewitness Accounts." The Guardian, 12 Sep 2001


"A pilot who saw the impact, Tim Timmerman, said it had been an American Airways 757. "'It added power on its way in,' he said. 'The nose hit, and the wings came forward and it went up in a fireball.'"
- "Pentagon Eyewitness Accounts." The Guardian, 12 Sep 2001

There are countless more, describing the PENTAGON not the twin towers.





and need i say it again, you still haven't answered my question...........c'mon how do walls fall down 45 mins AFTER being hit by the plane? i don't think you can comprehend the question i have asked it enough times.......

I don't even know if thats true. Even if it is, why is it so hard to believe? Because you don't want to? Looking for a conspiracy no matter how much evidence is against it? Oh yes of course, because all the evidence against what you say is "propaganda" and we are too blind to realise that. :rolleyes:



Question: "Can you explain how a Boeing 757-200, weighing nearly 100 tons and travelling at a minimum speed of 250 miles an hour only damaged the outside of the Pentagon?"
Answer: It didn't only damage the outside. According to the Washington Post, structural damage extended at least 150 feet inside, well into the third ("C") ring of the building.


Question: "Can you explain how a Boeing 14.9 yards high, 51.7 yards long, with a wingspan of 41.6 yards and a cockpit 3.8 yards high, could crash into just the ground floor of this building?"
Answer: It didn't just crash into the ground floor. According to official statements and news reports, it took out both the first and second floors on impact.


Question: "Can you find debris of a Boeing 757-200 in this photograph?"
Answer: No, but we can in this one (http://www.news.navy.mil/view%5Fsingle.asp%3Fid=2445) credited to a U.S. Navy photographer [enlarged version]. Bear in mind, eyewitnesses say the Boeing 757 virtually disintegrated when it struck the reinforced wall of the building. Given that, and the tremendous forward momentum of the aircraft on impact, the assumption that a significant amount of debris ought to be visible in front of the Pentagon wouldn't seem justified.

According to a CNN article published the day after the attack, Michael Tamillow, a battalion chief of the Fairfax County, Virginia Fire Department, reported that parts of the Boeing 757 fuselage had indeed been recovered from the wreckage by FBI investigators (the same team that later found the black boxes). "No large pieces apparently survived," the article said.

One visitor who surveyed the crash site a few days later, Representative Judy Biggert of Illinois, told reporters she saw remnants of the jetliner: "There was a seat from a plane," she said, "there was part of the tail and then there was a part of green metal, I could not tell what it was, a part of the outside of the plane." (Chicago Sun-Times, 16 Sep, 2001)

[Senori]

i dunno, maybe we have some budding physicists on these boards who can explain how a plane punctures several layers of armour plated walls but leaves it standing for 45 mins............??
You might remember that the Twin Towers didn't collapse for a goodly while after they were hit either.

planes don't dissapper that quickly...even with that ammount of heat and force...it doesn't add up.
Proof please? kthxbai

and you're gonna tell me that the explosion was so fierce it vaporised virtually all of the plane, yet the black boxes are found in perfect condition.....pshhhh im not convinced........they may have recovered and identified people on board but there is no footage of them at the site is there, and how did the reporter miss all this?........in fact why is there no video footage of the plane hitting? this is after all the most heavily guarded fortress in america no?.........
It's not to say that the plane was neccessarily vaporized, simply than it was torn apart and buried under debris. The black box is specifically designed to withstand these sorts of crashes, whereas a plane is not.

As for guard footage, that depends on which conspiracy theory you believe in.

and need i say it again, you still haven't answered my question...........c'mon how do walls fall down 45 mins AFTER being hit by the plane? i don't think you can comprehend the question i have asked it enough times.......
I think an apt question here is; if you don't think a plane could have done this, what do you think could have?

[Senor Miguel]

all i can say is i wish i could talk to this lot in person maybe they could put my mind at rest on this one, right now they are just letters on a screen.......i never said nothing hit the pentagon, i just don't think it was an airliner..........so it punctures several layers but doesn't knock them down straight away, do you know how big an airliner is? it just isn't possible, and I know it didn't knock the walls down straight away because the CNN reporter said as much, and i have seen footage in a 9/11 video of the walls coming down when they are smouldering, long after the plane has supposedly hit...........it just doesn't fit.

[Senor Miguel]

You might remember that the Twin Towers didn't collapse for a goodly while after they were hit either.

you twonk there is a difference between a tower and a building like the pentagon, are you being serious? trust me the bit of the building that the planes hit caved in instantly, or the plane would have bounced off it.......lol and don't get me started on the twin towers......

It's not to say that the plane was neccessarily vaporized

well where the hell did it go and why can't the reporter see it? it's not something easily missed, even if buried under debris........which there wasn't any right away, bcos the walls didnt fall down til after 45 mins......ffs

The black box is specifically designed to withstand these sorts of crash. i refuse to believe anything, never mind black boxes, can withstand vaporisation, do you know what vaporisation means? it means everything turns into vapour......... :yeees:

As for guard footage, that depends on which conspiracy theory you believe in.

well do enlighten us, have you seen video footage? there was none on the news at the time, it's impossible to believe a military complex doesn't have cameras watching every possible angle...............

I think an apt question here is; if you don't think a plane could have done this, what do you think could have?

there are several ideas about what this could have been, im no expert but an unmanned aerial drone is just one possibility........

[rachie004]

nearly all the seats were in tact for a start ...

if it was a pure freighter than it wouldn't of had passenger seating - flight deck seats, yes

[groovechampion]

all i can say is i wish i could talk to this lot in person maybe they could put my mind at rest on this one, right now they are just letters on a screen.......i never said nothing hit the pentagon, i just don't think it was an airliner..........so it punctures several layers but doesn't knock them down straight away, do you know how big an airliner is? it just isn't possible, and I know it didn't knock the walls down straight away because the CNN reporter said as much, and i have seen footage in a 9/11 video of the walls coming down when they are smouldering, long after the plane has supposedly hit...........it just doesn't fit.

I think you'll refuse to believe the most obvious explanation no matter how much evidence there is.

[Senor Miguel]

I think you'll refuse to believe the most obvious explanation no matter how much evidence there is.

i think you'll gladly accept any explanation as long as you don't have to hurt your own brain trying to think about it for yourself, and accept the 'experts' opinion..........but if you can explain the wall thing i will retract everything i have said........

[AllAmericanRageJunky]

I am interested, but the link doesn't seem to work...

[morrocan roll]

I think you'll refuse to believe the most obvious explanation no matter how much evidence there is.
i believe thats exactly what your doing ...your ignoring the facts ...the evidence ...even the refusal of the whitehouse itself ...to allow forensic tests to be done on the twin towers wreckage ...all those in the bizz know ...THEY KNOW ...
that a crime of this magnitude ALWAYS ...has forensics all over every square inch.
one of the first things the government refused to allow on site was any analysis of the steel wreckage ...as in the steel itself.
the demolition guys the world over were in awe of the way those buildings were brought down.
it was essential that steel was examined ...it would exolain so much ...
but no ...the steel was was arriving in china as scrap in record time ...no forrensics left now.

[Yerascrote]

no matter how convincing a conspiracy theory sounds or even if it's true you'll always sound like some nutter because it's not the accepted truth.

[morrocan roll]

the word conspiracy is so easily thrown around as a ridicule weapon.
catch up on 30 years of american political history ...look at what little evidence has been spoon fed to the world ...look at ALL the lies and bullshit that an awful lot of people NOW accept were lies and then go on to make yet another excuse for their masters fucking absolute letdown of YOUR democratic values.
keep on believing ...keep on making poor excuses for the very people that you yourselves keep on being let down by ...by way of fucking lies and untruths.
how long ...come on how long before there are to many lies?
how long will people keep defending the death and destruction in the name of ...in the name of ...wmd's ...democracy ...regieme change ....
NOT IN MY NAME ANYMORE ...
I REFUSE TO VOTE.

[Senor Miguel]

no matter how convincing a conspiracy theory sounds or even if it's true you'll always sound like some nutter because it's not the accepted truth.

yeah you are exactly right, but as this is an internet message board, i don't care i'll take that risk, if it even tickles 1 person's curiousity it is worth it...........as for that link, it was working this morning :crazyeyes , lol ill check it out.

[morrocan roll]

THE BIGGEST FUCKING CONSPIRACY GOING IS THEM AGAINST YOU!
lies lies and more fucking lies amidst invasions and death.
no matter how many lies are uncovered some of you still carry on excusing these people and then soaking up some more!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
how many lies will you forgive them?
last time there was a political machine of this magnitude ws in the 1930's.
as american freedoms are curtailed after lie upon fucking lie and crime after crime ...still certain kinds of the population ...make excuses for the lies. they excuse the liars again and again and ...soak up some more.
the playstation generation?

[Senor Miguel]

and you lot who are so quick to dismiss me, what about german's former minister of defense and technology von buelow (http://www.prisonplanet.com/021104vonbuelow.html)? i suppose he is just making it all up as well, or maybe just maybe, he actually knows what he's talking about.....?

it's not like i'm the only one who thinks this shit.........

[morrocan roll]

for those who haven't ...read up on the PNAC agenda. years of publicly available stuff.
look at the plan ...see who the named nobody realy planners are ...then see where those nobodys are now ...look around at the global situation ...and then look yourself in the eye ...and convince yourselves ...the PNAC plan was all rubbish ...and failed to materialise.
go on ...

[groovechampion]

I'm quick to dismiss you because you are so quick to believe Alex Jones'/David Icke's crap.

I definately don't believe that everything is above board and there are certainly some fishy things going on in some cases, but I don't just look for conspiracies and believe any old claptrap despite the evidence to the contrary.

[morrocan roll]

despite the evidence .
if the american government have blatantly destroyed any and all evidence in an unprecedented way for such an unprecdented crime ...what evidence are you actualy using for your support of the se torturous liars?

[groovechampion]

if the american government have blatantly destroyed any and all evidence in an unprecedented way for such an unprecdented crime ...what evidence are you actualy using for your support of the se torturous liars?

The independent eyewitness accounts? The video footage (in the case of the twin towers)? The deaths of all the passangers on board flight 77?

[morrocan roll]

The independent eyewitness accounts? The video footage (in the case of the twin towers)? The deaths of all the passangers on board flight 77?
:shocking: :nervous: :eek:

[groovechampion]

:shocking: :nervous: :eek:
:shocking: The CIA are tapping into my brainwaves!

Can I interest you in a CIA proof tin foil hat? Only 50 quid to you! ;) :D

[morrocan roll]

:shocking: The CIA are tapping into my brainwaves!

Can I interest you in a CIA proof tin foil hat? Only 50 quid to you! ;) :D
i've got mine already thanx ...along with aluminium underwear ...they won't catch me!

[Senor Miguel]

I'm quick to dismiss you because you are so quick to believe Alex Jones'/David Icke's crap.

I definately don't believe that everything is above board and there are certainly some fishy things going on in some cases, but I don't just look for conspiracies and believe any old claptrap despite the evidence to the contrary.

stop being a nob, a) i've never quoted david icke anywhere as i think he is whack, you are chatting bollocks, and b) alex jones does say some interesting stuff, and interviews some interesting people, did you read what von buelow had to say?

[groovechampion]

stop being a nob, a) i've never quoted david icke anywhere as i think he is whack, you are chatting bollocks, and b) alex jones does say some interesting stuff, and interviews some interesting people, did you read what von buelow had to say?

Alex jones, david Icke all the same really. They spout the same crap!

Although they do have a lucrative business in selling crappy conspiracy theory books to people who have been, er...enlightened and can er...see past the propaganda :yes:

[Senor Miguel]

Alex jones, david Icke all the same really. They spout the same crap!

no, they are two different people, one believes in lizards and ufo's, the other believes 9/11 was a fake and america's turning into a police state.......now step back from the keyboard and stop typing bullshit.......you can't say i quote from one person because YOU think they are similar to another person, you really are an nobjockey....... :banghead:

and yes alex jones sells some of his stuff so what? if i invested my whole life to a cause like that i'd want money to live on..........he also lets people reprint and copy his material for non-profit, non-sale distribution, so he is less worried about making a quick buck and more concerned with spreading what he feels is the truth........and fair play to him.

[groovechampion]

no, they are two different people, one believes in lizards and ufo's, the other believes 9/11 was a fake and america's turning into a police state.......now step back from the keyboard and stop typing bullshit.......you can't say i quote from one person because YOU think they are similar to another person, you really are an nobjockey....... :banghead:

and yes alex jones sells some of his stuff so what? if i invested my whole life to a cause like that i'd want money to live on..........he also lets people reprint and copy his material for non-profit, non-sale distribution, so he is less worried about making a quick buck and more concerned with spreading what he feels is the truth........and fair play to him.


Yeah David Icke is extremely crazy and Alex Jones is just a bit crazy then.

I didn't say you quoted David Icke, you just sound like him.

[Senor Miguel]

I didn't say you quoted David Icke, you just sound like him.

now you are backtracking, again...........that's not what you said........

I'm quick to dismiss you because you are so quick to believe.....David Icke's crap.

............which implies i have mentioned him somewhere along the way.......so shut it.

[groovechampion]

Haha ok ok! You think David Icke is crazy but you believe Alex Jones, both talk bollocks! Same shit different loony...

[Senor Miguel]

that's your opinion, just be more careful with your english next time..........oh and for anyone who wanted to watch that video, i dunno how that link spuriously disappeared, here is another one........

http://www.911wasalie.com/phpwebsite/files/documents/Cnn.Pentagon.Jamie.Mcintyre.swf

[Blagsta]

So the absence of evidence is the same as evidence of absence? Shaky logic there.

[Fiend_85]

Well, evidence is 'that which is seen' so there being an abscence of any proof, can be considered to be as important as proof that it never happened.

[Senor Miguel]

lol, not only is there an absence of evidence, but there is evidence that the walls did not collapse immediately on the plane's impact............can you explain either of these?.........seems more logical than the official story, that's all.........and fiend makes a good point.

[Blagsta]

I might take your view more seriously if you could point to some kind of independent source to back them.

[Senor Miguel]

I might take your view more seriously if you could point to some kind of independent source to back them.

well i dont like to drag old threads up, but in light of something i watched just now i think its worth it..........video (http://www.questioning-consensus.com/pentagon.swf) ............i can't put it any better than this.

[Jim V]

To be honest it's a really old viral but it does have an impact - though I'd question if that's the same as fact.

For any conspiracy I always prefer to look from the angle of 'what is there to gain'. Exactly how would it benefit the US government to pretend a plane hit the Pentagon, to cover it up, lie to people on the scene, silence witnesses and what, hide/kill/imprison the passengers of the plane?

I just can't see what they gained.

[Blagsta]

well i dont like to drag old threads up, but in light of something i watched just now i think its worth it..........video (http://www.questioning-consensus.com/pentagon.swf) ............i can't put it any better than this.

Yes, that's a good indepedent source isn't it? :rolleyes:

[Rich Kid]

Some people on this topic have obviously been smoking too much weed or perhaps some other substances! Why else would they see conspiracies where none exist?
Or is it pure anti-Americanism?

[Flashman's Ghost]

Apollo_69

Snopes is your friend http://www.snopes.com/rumors/pentagon.htm

Taken from the above site:

) Can you explain how a Boeing 757-200, weighing nearly 100 tons and travelling at a minimum speed of 250 miles an hour only damaged the outside of the Pentagon?
Despite the appearances of exterior photographs, the Boeing 757-200 did not "only damage the outside of the Pentagon." It caused damage to all five rings (not just the outermost one) after penetrating a reinforced, 24-inch-thick outer wall. As 60 Minutes II reported in their "Miracle of the Pentagon" episode on 28 November 2001, the section of the Pentagon into which the hijacked airliner was flown had just been reinforced during a renovation project:


"We made several modifications to the building as part of that renovation that we think helped save people's lives," says Lee Evey, who runs a billion-dollar project to renovate the Pentagon. They’ve been working on it since 1993. The first section was five days from being finished when the terrorists hit it with the plane.
The renovation project built strength into the 60-year-old limestone exterior with a web of steel beams and columns.

"You have these steel tubes and, again, they go from the first floor and go all the way to the fifth floor," says Evey. "We have everything bolted together in a strong steel matrix. It supports and encases the windows and provides tremendous additional strength to the wall."

When the plane hit at 350 miles an hour, the limestone layer shattered. But inside, those shards of stone were caught by a shield of cloth that lines the entire section of the building.

It is a special cloth that helps prevent masonry from fragmenting and turning into shrapnel. The cloth is also used to make bullet-resistant vests.

All of this, especially the steel, held up the third, fourth and fifth floors. They stayed up for 35 minutes. You can see them through the smoke, suspended over the hole gouged by the jet. Only after the evacuation did the heat melt the new steel away. Evey says that without the reconstruction, the floors might have collapsed immediately.

[Senor Miguel]

well from 9/11 they have launched the whole war on terror so it suits their agenda nicely.........i'm not sure about the specifics of the pentagon crash, but if you can pick a hole in a piece of their argument surely it discredits the rest..........and ok blagsta what would you accept as an independent source?........the times arent exactly gonna tell you this shit are they......

[Clandestine]

The unhindered conquest of two countries, installation of acquiescent puppet regimes in line with long shelved ambitions to establish control of key mid-Asian oil and gas reserves as well as strategic military positioning in easy reach of all potentially uncooperative neighbouring states for perpetuation of this new status quo.

Once again, it astounds me that supposedly intelligent people can fail to see the concentration of power and long term corporate plunder that 9/11 made possible.

The real conspiracy theorists are those who can actually believe that factuous ragtag groups dwelling in caves in Afghanistan could have carried out a multiple hijacking in the most defended airspace in the world, executed a standdown of US air defenses, perpetrate aerial maneuvers with commercial jets using pilots whose own instructors have testified were incapable of even flying single engine fixed wing aircrafts without a trainer present, and still manage to have 7 of the supposed 19 hijackers subsequently turn up alive and well in their own countries.

Obviously the myth that a western government could never perpetrate so heinous a betrayal of its own people in order to traumatise it into unquestioning reactionistic support for a well documented ambition for American empire has been so ingrained that people just refuse to see the glaring inconsistencies of the laughable coverstory.

It also demonstrates that people will continue to believe proven liars rather than demand fullscale transparent and public investigation into every detail of the day and those involved (including FEMA which conveniently confiscated most of the evidence in typical "national security" whitewash fashion).

Let us recall that this is not a new paradigm in world history nor the start of a new era (lest it be allowed by the public to become so) but merely a repeat of the same principles employed by Hitler to consolidate all power to the center, quash dissent and public debate/scrutiny and institute a war economy.

The profits (let alone unfettered disregard for due process of law and invasive surveillance) which have accrued to the MIC and intelligence communities (not to mention our oil producers) since 911 are a red flag of "who stood most to gain" if ever there was one.

Believe the Rove-inspired propaganda or take time to read both the PNAC report "Rebuilding America's Defenses: Strategy, Forces and Resources for a New Century" and Brzezinski's "The Grand Chessboard: American Primacy and its Geostrategic Imperatives" and perhaps youll see just how great the ambitions involved truly are.

[Senor Miguel]

anyone who knows anything about history knows about the u.s. lusitania, pearl habour, the reichstag.......it's astounding how easily this is all forgotten.

[morrocan roll]

I just can't see what they gained.
what they stood to gain was the backing of the american people to go to war.
top government and military figures had been saying for years ...we need a new pearl harbour to galvanise the american people ...JV have you read the pnac agenda? have you noticed that all the people who planned and promoted it are now in power?

[Jim V]

Hey I get the theories behind the whole of the 9/11 attack what I don't see if the benefit of faking a plane hitting the pentagon as a seperate issue from the attacks as a whole.

Most people would accept the twin towers, etc, but then question the pentagon - so I'm saying what do they gain by pretending a plane hit the pentagon to cover up for something else hitting it. It would be just as benefical to say it was a car bomb, etc.

[Flashman's Ghost]

Most people would accept the twin towers, etc, but then question the pentagon - so I'm saying what do they gain by pretending a plane hit the pentagon to cover up for something else hitting it. It would be just as benefical to say it was a car bomb, etc.

One of the theories I heard was that the planners of the Twin Towers attacks were housed in part of the Pentagon destroyed. :nervous:

However like most conspiracy theories its pure bollocks

Roosevelt did not plan Pearl Harbour and The Lusitania was not sunk by the RN. Come to that the Titanic sinking did happen (it wasn't an insurance scam by The White Star line), man has landed on the Moon and the Nazi Death Camps did exist. And whilst I haven't a clue who killed Kennedy I havent ruled out Lee Harvey Oswald

[Senor Miguel]

One of the theories I heard was that the planners of the Twin Towers attacks were housed in part of the Pentagon destroyed. :nervous:

However like most conspiracy theories its pure bollocks

Roosevelt did not plan Pearl Harbour and The Lusitania was not sunk by the RN. Come to that the Titanic sinking did happen (it wasn't an insurance scam by The White Star line), man has landed on the Moon and the Nazi Death Camps did exist. And whilst I haven't a clue who killed Kennedy I havent ruled out Lee Harvey Oswald

your response is typical of the general population who lump all conspiracy theories into one blob so its easier to dismiss as bollocks.........most of them may well be, but to lump 9/11 into that is very simplistic thinking, when there is clear evidence to the contrary.........a conspiracy theory is by definition a purely unbased hypothesis, when you have evidence, no matter how circumstantial or probable, it becomes a conspiracy..........most people fail to make this important distinction............and you need to do some research, the commander in chief at pearl harbour blamed roosevelt for withholding intelligence and facilitating the attack.........

[Blagsta]

Yes apollo, you know the truth and everyone else is blind. Of course you do.

[Clandestine]

There's a big difference in "knowing the truth" (which requires a proper fullscale investigation into ALL elements of the day) and recognising glaring inconsistencies in "official" explanations suggestive of a viable conspiracy. If that is the best retort you can come up with Blag, then I'm afraid you merely demonstrate your own refusal to open your eyes and only reinforce what I, apollo and others have been saying.

I reiterate my astonishment at the utter incapability of supposed intelligent people to acknowledge the need for such an investigation (and not one called for or in any way circumscribed or influenced by those in power).

[Blagsta]

*yawn*

I've looked at the "evidence" for your views. It's crap. Yes, there are some unexplained things, but to suggest that the WTC was deliberately demolished with explosive charges (for instance) is utter utter nonsense. People who believe in conspiracy theories like that usually do so because its an easy answer. An attempt at the truth actually requires some analysis and thought.

[freethepeeps]

An attempt at the truth actually requires some analysis and thought.

Sort of like an independent invesigation perhaps?


:confused:

[Senor Miguel]

Yes apollo, you know the truth and everyone else is blind. Of course you do.

i am not the only one unwilling to accept the official story, which as clan points out is blatantly inconsistent.........noone knows the complete truth, except the people who conceived this heinous crime.........what is clear is that you are blind to anything that is not endorsed by 'independent' media, the irony of which is blinding seeing as no such thing exists.......as admitted by william colby in my sig.

[Flashman's Ghost]

and you need to do some research, the commander in chief at pearl harbour blamed roosevelt for withholding intelligence and facilitating the attack.........

Given that both Kimmel (navy) and Short (Army including USAAF) were sacked and lost their ranks for gross dereliction of duty they might in their defence try and shift the blame - that's not evidence that Roosevelt knew and covered up.

And the fact I don't think there was a conspiracy is not evidence that I haven't looked at the subject - just that I don't draw the same conclusions you do...

[Clandestine]

Thank you for confirming that you are indeed a closed minded sheeple.

All the remainder of your blather only serves to further demonstrate that you haven't made any legitimate or serious examination of the inconsistencies nor the evidence of elements such as the melted substructure (having nought whatsoever to do with planes crashing into the upper floors and everything to do with requisite thermite charges necessary to generate sufficient heat to melt the supports quickly).

Keep on yawning, its clearly a sign of a brain lacking critical exercise.

[Blagsta]

LOL! :D You should go and talk to Dr Jazzz on U75.

[Senor Miguel]

Given that both Kimmel (navy) and Short (Army including USAAF) were sacked and lost their ranks for gross dereliction of duty they might in their defence try and shift the blame - that's not evidence that Roosevelt knew and covered up.

And the fact I don't think there was a conspiracy is not evidence that I haven't looked at the subject - just that I don't draw the same conclusions you do...

or it suggests that the blame was shifted onto them.........and if you have looked into it you'll know that's not the only evidence........

sticking to 9/11, the chances of an independent investigation is laughable........and you laugh at demolition charges, how do you explain the WTC owner admitting to 'pulling' the WTC7 building using explosives?........which takes weeks of planning, not something you can do in the midst of a burning blaze.......i think the person who hasn't looked at this critically is you.

[Flashman's Ghost]

I'm interested in the term sheeple - why do you feel the need to try and distance yourself from people who disagree with you and deny them a common humanity? Or is sheeple a slang term in your part of the US for people who disagree with your views?

P'haps we have looked at the evidence and note the inconsistencies in the various conspiracy theories. The fact that some things are unknown or confusing in the 'official' version doesn't make the conspiracy theory wrong - only that a plane crashing into a building and then exploding is a catstrophic event and much of the evidence will be destroyed.

You also seem to have typically inflated American view of the efficiency of the US intelligence services. A country which failed to notice that China had moved emabssies in Serbia, tried to kill Castro with an exploding cigar etc, etc is hardly likely to be efficient enough to run a cover-up on this scale.

[Blagsta]

There's no point trying to debate with conspiracy nuts. Everything is proof of the conspiracy, even evidence that refutes it...that's part of the conspiracy too!


http://pages.prodigy.net/gmhodes/believe.gif

[Clandestine]

Sad child. You have never provided one shred of counter evidence that credibly treats with the manifold inconsistencies exposed by those who have bothered to do the research and assemble the claims for review. Tis you sheeple, as I said before, who believe the most ridiculous conspiracy put forward by anyone paraded before the cameras and called "a government expert". lol.

For others with the capacity for critical analysis I leave you with these susbstantive reviews...

http://portland.indymedia.org/en/2004/07/292330.shtml

http://uscrisis.lege.net/911/

Don't bother taxing yourself, little blag, we all understand that there are just too many words and supporting references for your poor weary brain to handle. Much easier to just believe proven liars and shuffle along with the dismissive majority than to seek the uncomfortable truth.

After all, there are so many more countries we yet need to bomb into submission.

[Blagsta]

:D You're funny.

[Senor Miguel]

yes that's right i believe 9/11 was planned, therefore i subscribe to ufos........your logic is flawed and you are a plonker........i would like to believe the official story believe me, i am just not that dumb.........neither are thousands of people around the globe, and nqa i believe with you the americans are not effective to cover this up bcos there are too many things that don't fit.............fortunately they have a complicit media to parrot the official story with no room for criticism, so fools like you believe it........

[loki]

Sorry, Clandestine. My brother-in-law was killed in the attack. I saw the building the next day. Lots of reasons probably to be generally suspicious and worried about governmnet's intrusion into one's life, but this is not one of them.

[Clandestine]

Thank you, but that is a non sequitor in a thread whose subject is anything but funny.

One can only suppose that you havent yet reached a point of maturity necessary to handle proper discussion.

[Senor Miguel]

Sorry, Clandestine. My brother-in-law was killed in the attack. I saw the building the next day. Lots of reasons probably to be generally suspicious and worried about governmnet's intrusion into one's life, but this is not one of them.

i'm sorry to hear this, but your argument is flawed as well, how do casualties remove all suspicion? there were casualties at pearl harbour too you know.........noones disputing people died, that's what makes it all the more atrocious.

[Clandestine]

Sorry your brother was killed, however that too offers no legitimate treatment with the substantive material presented and I highly doubt your personal loss qualifies you as an universal authority sufficient to offhandedly dismiss the issue with a mere sentence or two.

I should think, on the contrary, that one who lost a loved one would be most willing to examine the patent fraud in the coverstory and demand the much needed thorough investigation.

The issue remains regardless of your sentimental proximity to the events of that day.

[morrocan roll]

JIM ...a car bomb would be just another car bomb ...and probably wouldn't be possible anyway.
but stolen planes crashing into the heart of the american psyche is spectacular!
i can't wait till the truth that it was america that attacked america comes out ...blagsta will be seeing little green men all over the mental institution they lock him up in!

[morrocan roll]

http://www.new-enlightenment.com/militarismindex.htm



?

[Blagsta]

yes that's right i believe 9/11 was planned, therefore i subscribe to ufos.....

Fuck me, you're an idiot.

[Jim V]

fuck me, CALM DOWN

[Blagsta]

Well apollo thinking that my pisstake X-Files pic implied that I think he believes in UFO's is the understanding of an idiot. It was in fact a comment on the gullibility of people who believe in conspiracy theories with very little evidence.

[Clandestine]

Yes blagsta, you do indeed believe in conspiracy theories with very little evidence, since nothing but a few claims mere days after 911 by Bush admin "officials" sufficed to thoroughly pin the blame on cave dwelling militants and mobilize the long pre-planned invasions of two sovereign nations.

Go on son, reconcile it for us how you can be so unquestioningly gullible when the subsequent inconsistencies, arduously compiled by large numbers of people who bothered to undertake critical investigative research, are more than sufficient to make the official coverstory a tattered and obvious fabrication.

I truly despair if you can seriously consider yourself a rational thinker and buy into a story with so many documented discrepencies. No aliens involved in this conspiracy.

[Senor Miguel]

Well apollo thinking that my pisstake X-Files pic implied that I think he believes in UFO's is the understanding of an idiot. It was in fact a comment on the gullibility of people who believe in conspiracy theories with very little evidence.

the fact is, everyone who sees things different to you is an idiot, you're about as tolerant of other people's views as adolf hitler...........you are comparing a government conspiracy to take the nation to war, against extraterrestrial existence? then you are the idiot i'm afraid, there's a growing moutain of evidence that contradicts the official 9/11 story, whereas as far as i'm aware there is NO evidence of UFOs, so you grouping the two together shows your level of ignorance on this matter.........what about the germans who thought hitler burnt down the reichstag? i guess they were labelled gullible conspiracy theorists by people like you........moron. He had "evidence", which was good enough to fool the whole german nation for a good while, i'll bet some of them were even more intelligent than you, so what makes you so infallible? :rolleyes: .........if you can't see the parallels you should call it a day, if you can then you have to admit it is possible to fool all of the people some of the time, and some of the people all of the time, but you can't fool all the people all the time........wake the fuck up.

[morrocan roll]

the facts ...fuck the conspiracy people and the illuminati ...
the facts ...the buildings all fell in controlled fashion ...fred dybna would have been so proud ...
no fucking plane crashed into the pentagon ...for once i agree with cnn ...there is pages of published pnac plans for anothrer pearl harbour.

facts ...one of the greatest crimes in history ...9/11 ...should have automaticaly had massive forensic evidence carried out at scene of crime but ...all the evidence was shipped out and melted down instantly ...no investigation allowed ...laden bush business political connections long established and protected.

the invasion of iraq and afghanistan been on the cards wekll before 9/11

how many american bases are there now in the middle east and asia?

we are in the last days of the oil age.

china will be the economic super power ...
oil and water wars inevitable at this point in our consumerist history ...

[morrocan roll]

how many american bases are there now in the middle east and asia?


answers on a digital postcard please.

[freethepeeps]

how many american bases are there now in the middle east and asia?


answers on a digital postcard please.

And how many of the countries in the Middle East invited the US in?

[morrocan roll]

And how many of the countries in the Middle East invited the US in?
we know the answer to that want one freeps ...but the answer to my question is a bit disturbing.

[freethepeeps]

we know the answer to that want one freeps ...but the answer to my question is a bit disturbing.

I don't know the answer, but I'm sure its disturbing.


:yippe:

[morrocan roll]

I don't know the answer, but I'm sure its disturbing.


:yippe:
i'm so tired man ...but if someone could be bothered to google it or something ...the ammoiuunt of permanent american military bases in very strategic places ...and how they got there ...is very disturbing and revealing.
i just can't remember the links now.

[Senor Miguel]

well considering they've built around 17 in iraq alone.........noone seems to pick up on this, or see the relevance in the wider picture, that is more worrying.

[MrG]

http://www.daimi.au.dk/~ace/pics/Ufo.gif