Anti-social?

[BlackArab]

http://news.scotsman.com/latest.cfm?id=4180029

Cry for help...

[Kentish]

Cry for help...
What help would you offer?

[wheresmyplacebo]

the use of asbos worry me... anything can be 'anti social' - such a discretionary power that removes civil liberties without the need the proof can only be something to be abused by a lazy police force

[Kermit]

ASBOs provide legal consequences for people who breach them, but without a criminal burden of proof. They work in many cases, but to say that they aren't a severe invasuion of civil liberties is wrong. Mind, when we have a Prime Minister who claims that civil liberties arguments are "old fashioned and out of date" then it's hardly a surprise.

Of course, instead of an ASBO it'd be easier to actually, like, give this woman medical help. But they won't do that: they'll wait for her to breach it, they'll jail her, and then collect her from her cell a week later swinging from the lightfitting.

[wheresmyplacebo]

ASBOs provide legal consequences for people who breach them, but without a criminal burden of proof. They work in many cases, but to say that they aren't a severe invasuion of civil liberties is wrong. Mind, when we have a Prime Minister who claims that civil liberties arguments are "old fashioned and out of date" then it's hardly a surprise.

Of course, instead of an ASBO it'd be easier to actually, like, give this woman medical help. But they won't do that: they'll wait for her to breach it, they'll jail her, and then collect her from her cell a week later swinging from the lightfitting.

thats why i dont like their introduction, simply because local authorities will use them instead of the methods that require evidence and are more idiotproof, makes doing something wrong a discretionary thing instead the easier thing, if they were used properly to disperse actual trouble makers for 6 months or so and then checked again in 6 months to see how they are theyd be okay

but they are used for anything the local authorities can get away with and i dont see many people appealing cause of cost

why i dont like discretionary powers with little proof required

[BlackArab]

What help would you offer?

What ever help she needs.

Is that too much to ask?

[Kentish]

What ever help she needs.
Seriously, what should we do for her?

[freethepeeps]

Seriously, what should we do for her?

I'd suggest that she needs counselling, and a community support worker who spends time with her, builds a relationship with her, and encourages more positive activities wouldn't go amiss.

Jailing her if she gets suicidal won't help.

[Kentish]

I'd suggest that she needs counselling, and a community support worker who spends time with her, builds a relationship with her, and encourages more positive activities wouldn't go amiss.
In an ideal world that's what we'd expect. How about in reality?

[Blagsta]

In an ideal world that's what we'd expect. How about in reality?

We throw her in prison so she attempts suicide by stuffing her mouth full of tissues so she suffocates or she tries to strangle herself by twisting her bed linen around her neck.

[freethepeeps]

In an ideal world that's what we'd expect. How about in reality?

Erm, you asked a question - I answered it. Have all the counsellors left the country? All the social services and voluntary agencies shut down?

In reality both suggestions are possible.

[Kentish]

Erm, you asked a question - I answered it. Have all the counsellors left the country? All the social services and voluntary agencies shut down?

In reality both suggestions are possible.
We'd like to think so, I agree. There aren't enough counsellors, and counselling isn't efficacious enough to be a panacea to all these anxious/depressive personalities anyway. You can suggest 24/7 social services support, but that's expensive and it isn't going to help in the long term.

ASBOs aren't the solution, but I don't see a credible alternative.

[Blagsta]

How exactly is an ASBO going to help?

[Kentish]

How exactly is an ASBO going to help?
Are you asking me?

I don't think it will help her at all. It will perhaps solve the problem she creates though.

[Blagsta]

You just said you don't see any credible alternatives. So you must think its gonna help more than therapy or anti-depressants or being sectioned.

[Kentish]

You just said you don't see any credible alternatives. So you must think its gonna help more than therapy or anti-depressants or being sectioned.
No, I meant I didn't see ftp's suggestion as a credible alternative. She may well need all of the above. And an ASBO. We don't know any details of the case.

[Blagsta]

Sorry, explain how an ASBO is going to help again?

[freethepeeps]

How will the ASBO solve the problem?

[Kentish]

Sorry, explain how an ASBO is going to help again?
How will the ASBO solve the problem?
Presumably she's been making a nuisance of herself in the places she's been banned from (who knows?). The ASBO is presumably designed to prevent her doing so again.

I don't think an ASBO is a solution for her. But it may be the solution for everyone her behaviour is affecting.

[Blagsta]

Wouldn't a section be more appropriate?

[Man Of Kent]

On what grounds?

[Kentish]

Wouldn't a section be more appropriate?
The mental disorder has to be treatable for a detention under the MHA to be valid.

[freethepeeps]

Presumably she's been making a nuisance of herself in the places she's been banned from (who knows?). The ASBO is presumably designed to prevent her doing so again.

I don't think an ASBO is a solution for her. But it may be the solution for everyone her behaviour is affecting.

Shes been pulled out of a river three times.

Maybe, the problem would be solved if they didn't pull her out next time - then she can sink or swim.

:rolleyes:

Its about as humane as making her behaviour imprisonable.

[Blagsta]

The mental disorder has to be treatable for a detention under the MHA to be valid.

Yes and suicide attempts are grounds.

[Blagsta]

On what grounds?

Danger to herself.

[Kentish]

Yes and suicide attempts are grounds.
Maybe she has been, and she is undergoing treatment. Maybe she's not currently suicidal.

We don't know any details of the case.

[Kentish]

Shes been pulled out of a river three times.

Maybe, the problem would be solved if they didn't pull her out next time - then she can sink or swim.

:rolleyes:

Its about as humane as making her behaviour imprisonable.
What would you do for her? Here and now.

[Blagsta]

What would you do for her? Here and now.

Therapy and possibly anti-depressants.

[freethepeeps]

What would you do for her? Here and now.

I've already told you that.

[Kentish]

Therapy
:confused:

Of what form?

[Kentish]

I've already told you that.
You're living in dream land if that's your realistic expectation of today's mental health services.

[Blagsta]

:confused:

Of what form?

The form that she needs.

[Kentish]

The form that she needs.
We don't even know she's mentally ill.

[freethepeeps]

You're living in dream land if that's your realistic expectation of today's mental health services.

So, are you suggesting that its okay to move from mental health to criminalising behaviour that needs support?

Do you honestly think ASBOs are a suitable response?

I really *am* trying to understand where you are coming from on this.

[Blagsta]

We don't even know she's mentally ill.

Errr...she's attempted suicide lots of times. That would suggest she is suffering from depression.

[freethepeeps]

We don't even know she's mentally ill.

Section 2: MHA

The grounds for the Application, as stated in the Act, are that the person:

is suffering from mental disorder of a nature or degree which warrants the detention of the patient in a hospital for assessment (or for assessment followed by medical treatment) for at least a limited period; and
he ought to be so detained in the interests of his own health or safety or with a view to the protection of other persons.

http://www.hyperguide.co.uk/mha/s2.htm

Then she needs to assessed to find out.

ETA: And it isn't my suggestion she should have 24/7 community support - a relationship of the sort I described can be developed with regular support for a few hours every week.

(aside)It struck me as really odd that she was still allowed to drive her car, but not to go into multi-level car parks.

[Fiend_85]

Suicide did used to be illegal didn't it? Why is it so surprising that attempting suicide would be criminalised?

[freethepeeps]

Suicide did used to be illegal didn't it? Why is it so surprising that attempting suicide would be criminalised?

Well, then it should be debated in Parliament - and there should be a democratic process.

The dangers of ASBOs is that they will criminalise behaviour without any kind of democratic scrutiny.

Do you think a bill to criminalise suicidal behaviour would get through parliament?

[Fiend_85]

It might do. However, the point is that this woman isn't just trying to commit suicide. She's doing it in public places. If I remember correctly, we had a suicide thread on how selfish it was, a major part of that was based on the mess left behind. If she jumped in front of a train, she could kill the driver. I'd want to ban her from any location she could do that, wouldn't you?

[Blagsta]

Its not going to help anything is it?

[Fiend_85]

Correction, it's not going to help her.

[Kentish]

Errr...she's attempted suicide lots of times. That would suggest she is suffering from depression.
Deliberate self harm and attempted suicide are different things. We don't know she's depressed and we don't know anything about her 'suicide attempts'.

[Blagsta]

Deliberate self harm and attempted suicide are different things. We don't know she's depressed and we don't know anything about her 'suicide attempts'.

Anyone who deliberatly self harms is not in a good mental state, are they?

[Blagsta]

Correction, it's not going to help her.

I'd have thought her life was more important than minor annoyances to the public.

[Fiend_85]

It's not going to be minor, and you don't know it's actually her life.

[Kentish]

Then she needs to assessed to find out.
I know what the MHA says. She may already have been assessed. I don't think an ASBO would have been the first choice in dealing with her, do you?
ETA: And it isn't my suggestion she should have 24/7 community support - a relationship of the sort I described can be developed with regular support for a few hours every week.
Again, she may already be seeing a CPN or support worker, but that service is limited by the resources available to it. What are you going to do for the other 167 hours in the week?
(aside)It struck me as really odd that she was still allowed to drive her car, but not to go into multi-level car parks.
People with personality disorders can drive you know.

[Blagsta]

It's not going to be minor

Compared to someone's life it is.

and you don't know it's actually her life.

Well who's is it then? The bogeyman's?

[Fiend_85]

You don't know anything about the case, she's making very public attempts to kill herself, it could be that she just wants the attention, rather than any genuine attempt to end it all. She obviously needs help, but as I've said, it's not going to be minor, if she jumps in front of a train, she could kill someone else. Remember that prat who parked on the tracks, he took a half dozen people with him, that's not minor is it?

[freethepeeps]

I know what the MHA says. She may already have been assessed. I don't think an ASBO would have been the first choice in dealing with her, do you?

Again, she may already be seeing a CPN or support worker, but that service is limited by the resources available to it. What are you going to do for the other 167 hours in the week?

People with personality disorders can drive you know.

We don't know that she has a personality order. All we know is what is in the article.

I was hoping you'd respond to this:

So, are you suggesting that its okay to move from mental health provision to criminalising behaviour that needs support?

Do you honestly think ASBOs are a suitable response?

I really *am* trying to understand where you are coming from on this.

ETA: word provision for clarification

[Blagsta]

You don't know anything about the case, she's making very public attempts to kill herself, it could be that she just wants the attention, rather than any genuine attempt to end it all

You don't think that someone who goes to those lengths to get attention isn't in serious distress?

She obviously needs help, but as I've said, it's not going to be minor, if she jumps in front of a train, she could kill someone else.

Very unlikely isn't it?

Remember that prat who parked on the tracks, he took a half dozen people with him, that's not minor is it?

No, but I wouldn't call him a prat either. People don't do that sort of thing unless they are in serious mental distress.

[Fiend_85]

I'm off in a bit, I want to make myself as clear as before then.

It's about punishment, essentially.

So, take a different story with an apparently disproportionate and unsuitable punishment. Remember that girl who was kidnapped, jumped from the car, was hit by a cab and died? The cabbie failed to stop, and got 200hrs (or something) community service. I remember kermit being fairly rabid about it. However, you had to look for what he was actually being punished for. His punishment was for not stopping, seeing as there was (in all likelyhood) no way he could have missed her, so the collision wasn't his fault, and no way for anyone else to know if she would have lived had he stopped, so he's not even being held responsible for her death, simply failing to stop and report an accident. That's all.

Here, she's not being punished for being depressed or attention seeking, the ASBO is designed to protect the rest of the public. We don't know what help she's getting, or if she's refused it. What is important, no matter how you want to equate trauma and injury to others and her own possible death, is that society has a responsiblity not just to help her, but to protect the majority as well. She's being banned from certain locations, not from any social intervention.

[Blagsta]

What utter utter nonsense. You're basically saying that she should be punished because she is in mental distress. How Christian of you. :rolleyes:

[Fiend_85]

I said nothing like that at all.

[Kentish]

We don't know that she has a personality order. All we know is what is in the article.
This is my point really. That we can't criticise the use of an ASBO in her case because we don't know if she's mentally ill and we don't know what kind of help she is being/has been given/offered.
So, are you suggesting that its okay to move from mental health provision to criminalising behaviour that needs support?
Absolutely not. Mental health provision in the NHS is shockingly awful and inadequate for the needs of our population. Services that are offered are under-resourced and often ineffective. Criminalising behaviour due to mental illness is not the answer, but in her case that may be the only solution to her behavioural patterns. I really don't think she would be prosecuted for disobeying the ASBO, but it would at least give some grounds for a detention under the MHA (section 2 or indeed 136).
Do you honestly think ASBOs are a suitable response?
ASBO singular: possibly.

[Blagsta]

Errr...yes you have. It may not be what you meant, but its what you wrote. Look - "It's about punishment, essentially.". See?

[Fiend_85]

You are a royal idiot.

[Blagsta]

Good comeback.

[Fiend_85]

You clearly haven't read my post, how are you worth a comeback?

[Kentish]

Errr...yes you have. It may not be what you meant, but its what you wrote. Look - "It's about punishment, essentially.". See?
What is this "mental distress" and what can be done about it?

[Blagsta]

This is my point really. That we can't criticise the use of an ASBO in her case because we don't know if she's mentally ill and we don't know what kind of help she is being/has been given/offered.

I'd say its a fair bet that she is in some form of mental distress. People don't usually attempt suicide when they feel OK.

Absolutely not. Mental health provision in the NHS is shockingly awful and inadequate for the needs of our population.

Agreed.

Services that are offered are under-resourced and often ineffective. Criminalising behaviour due to mental illness is not the answer, but in her case that may be the only solution to her behavioural patterns. I really don't think she would be prosecuted for disobeying the ASBO, but it would at least give some grounds for a detention under the MHA (section 2 or indeed 136).

Self harm is already grounds.

[Blagsta]

What is this "mental distress" and what can be done about it?

You want to be a doctor and you don't know what mental distress means? :eek:

[Fiend_85]

I think he wants to know what you mean by it.

Are people only allowed to be forcibly held under MHA if they are a danger to others not just themselves?

[Kentish]

I'd say its a fair bet that she is in some form of mental distress. People don't usually attempt suicide when they feel OK.
Again, the difference between deliberate self harm and attempted suicide.
Self harm is already grounds.
Only after the fact. The ASBO is about prevention.

[Kentish]

You want to be a doctor and you don't know what mental distress means? :eek:
I'm asking you to clarify what you mean. There's no need to be defensive.

[Blagsta]

I think he wants to know what you mean by it.

People who are happy and contented don't attempt suicide do they?

Are people only allowed to be forcibly held under MHA if they are a danger to others not just themselves?

People can be held if they are a danger to themselves or others.

[freethepeeps]

. She's being banned from certain locations, not from any social intervention.

Nobody said she was banned from social intervention. Kentish did suggest that it was unrealistic to expect she would get any though.

Her case seems to be a CRASBO, (Criminal Anti- Social Behaviour Order) rather than an ASBO - so at least the normal burden of proof was required, although her convicions were under the Public Order Act, which is basically "harrassment, alarm and distress", which are hard to get legal aid for, and hard to convict on if there is a competent lawyer involved.

I personally find it difficult to believe that her behaviour is more distressing to others than to herself, and I can't see how the (CR)ASBO sorts anything out - because a distressed person isn't always going to do rational things.

When our prisons are already overflowing with damaged human beings, we have to be wary of new ways of cramming them either more.

[Kentish]

Are people only allowed to be forcibly held under MHA if they are a danger to others not just themselves?
Either/or.

[Fiend_85]

Well, if she breaks the ASBO, that's probably grounds that she's a danger to themselves or others, ie irrefutably so.

[Blagsta]

Again, the difference between deliberate self harm and attempted suicide.

People don't deliberately self harm unless they are in some mental distress do they?

Only after the fact. The ASBO is about prevention.

But she has already attempted to harm herself.

[Kentish]

Kentish did suggest that it was unrealistic to expect she would get any though.
That's nothing like what I said.

(Emphasis mine)

[freethepeeps]

Are people only allowed to be forcibly held under MHA if they are a danger to others not just themselves?

From the act (quoted above)

"he ought to be so detained in the interests of his own health or safety or with a view to the protection of other persons."

[freethepeeps]

That's nothing like what I said.

(Emphasis mine)

My bad - lazy shorthand - should have said that Kentish did suggest it was unrealistic she would get the kind of help I proposed.

[Kentish]

People don't deliberately self harm unless they are in some mental distress do they?
What exactly do you mean by "mental distress"? I ask because, to me, that term implies an acute episode of psychosis causing irrational behaviour.
But she has already attempted to harm herself.
But she's only detainable if she is currently at risk of self harm. The ASBO would allow police intervention before she attempted anything else.

[Kentish]

My bad - lazy shorthand - should have said that Kentish did suggest it was unrealistic she would get the kind of help I proposed.
And I stand by that. (If she indeed has a personality disorder and the help you propose is counselling (immediately available) and a community support worker who will visit her regularly).

[freethepeeps]

But she's only detainable if she is currently at risk of self harm. The ASBO would allow police intervention before she attempted anything else.

The police are unlikely to intervene before she poses a risk to herself - how would they know she was near a river/carpark/trainline?

So most probably their intervention would come at the stage when a section would be appropriate.

And, given the history, it (a MH intervention) could be apllicable when she goes near a river/carpark/trainline.

[BlackArab]

Kentish,

Not sure if you understood what I am saying here. I am saying that she needs help and should get it. I am genuinely at a loss to see what could be debateable about that.

I am not saying I have the exact answers because I don't, I am not a mental health professional but I am someone who has had to deal with a friend who was suffering from mental health issues. We got him the help he needed.

Another person i was working with recently had some sort of a breakdown and was picked up wandering by the police, taken to a psychiactric unit, sectioned, assessed and treated, first as an in-patient, now as an out-patient.

This is what I am suggesting. Believe me mate if someone is depressed enough to think about, let alone attempt suicide, they are not going to stop to think rationally about the consequences of breaking their asbo.

[Kentish]

And, given the history, it (a MH intervention) could be apllicable when she goes near a river/carpark/trainline.
Hardly. The ASBO just formalises your thought process, but you can't be suggesting that people with a history of mental illness should be sectioned if they go near a river/carpark/trainline, surely?

[Kentish]

This is what I am suggesting. Believe me mate if someone is depressed enough to think about, let alone attempt suicide, they are not going to stop to think rationally about the consequences of breaking their asbo.
It's debatable because we don't even know she has a mental illness. People with so-called personality disorders can exhibit bizarre behaviours and have rational thought processes, and thus may not detainable under the MHA.

Of course she should be offered help, I don't recall denying that. But the ASBO isn't used as a first line treatment for people in her position - I am making the assumption that a lot has been tried with her already.

[freethepeeps]

Hardly. The ASBO just formalises your thought process, but you can't be suggesting that people with a history of mental illness should be sectioned if they go near a river/carpark/trainline, surely?

If they are at risk to themselves, as evidenced by previous history, then I would a think an assessment could be made. It won't. Just as she wouldn't be arrested before an incident.

I've made my substantive point about creeping imprisonment for non-illegal behaviour.

I'm done with this thread.

[Kentish]

I've made my substantive point about creeping imprisonment for non-illegal behaviour.
I agree with you. I'm just saying that there's always more than meets the eye with these stories.

[BeckyBoo]

It's debatable because we don't even know she has a mental illness.

In prisons when someone who is/or who could commit suicide arent they put on 24 hr watch or similar ?
Obviously if someone is prepared to take their own life they must have some kind of mental problem, so treat that problem in which ever way they can.

[morrocan roll]

In prisons when someone who is/or who could commit suicide arent they put on 24 hr watch or similar ?
Obviously if someone is prepared to take their own life they must have some kind of mental problem, so treat that problem in which ever way they can.
so chuck her in prison for being ill?
one of the best places going for topping yourself?
as has been proved time and time again?
there are never enough staff to do a 24hr watch on thousands upon thousands of prisoners.
and growing daily by the sounds of things.

[BeckyBoo]

so chuck her in prison for being ill?
one of the best places going for topping yourself?
as has been proved time and time again?
there are never enough staff to do a 24hr watch on thousands upon thousands of prisoners.
and growing daily by the sounds of things.

Sorry, no thats not what I meant. What I was saying is that people who are in prison who could harm/kill themselves are put on watch......meaning that there is something wrong with them. So this woman should have help to stop her not just move the problem.
Kentish is saying we dont know if she has a mental illness, im saying totally the opposite because anyone who tries to take their own life on more than one occasion has mental health issues of some kind......surely :confused:

[Blagsta]

Do you know what methods people in prison use to attempt suicide?

[freethepeeps]

Sorry, no thats not what I meant. What I was saying is that people who are in prison who could harm/kill themselves are put on watch......meaning that there is something wrong with them. So this woman should have help to stop her not just move the problem.
Kentish is saying we dont know if she has a mental illness, im saying totally the opposite because anyone who tries to take their own life on more than one occasion has mental health issues of some kind......surely :confused:

Kentish is suggesting that she has a "personality disorder" and that it is untreatable.

But we don't know that - and imho the term is used to get difficult non-psychotic patients off a psychiatrists caseload.

There has to be a reason for someone to behave in this way - and there must be a more humane way to respond to it, than criminalisation.

But methinks that the CRASBO may have been an easy way for magistrates to dispose of a difficult and disturbing case that made them uneasy.

[BeckyBoo]

Do you know what methods people in prison use to attempt suicide?

nah......should I ?

I dont think she should be sent to prison you know. Where I was coming from is that prisons get a doctors view as to wether the person is suicidal so if a doctor thinks they are then surely they have some kind of mental unstability ?
sheesh, why did I bring prison into the equasion..but it was late-ish last night wasnt it :p

[BeckyBoo]

But methinks that the CRASBO may have been an easy way for magistrates to dispose of a difficult and disturbing case that made them uneasy.

I agree :p

[Kentish]

Kentish is suggesting that she has a "personality disorder" and that it is untreatable.

But we don't know that
That's not what I said. I just questioned your kneejerk condemnation of the ASBO when we don't know if she's mentally ill (and whether that mental illness is treatable). All I know is that people with personality disorders deliberately self harm without being specifically suicidal, and are not sectionable for past behaviours.