Conservatives just 2% away from victory!!!

[lukesh]

http://news.ft.com/cms/s/04f02052-85e2-11d9-9011-00000e2511c8.html

A new mori poll has revealed that the Conservatives are just 2 points away from matching Labour. This poll has been taken after the Tories recently revealed their asylum and immigration and tax policy. This prooves that these issues are improtant to the electorate.

"Worryingly for Labour, the Mori survey shows that immigration and asylum are ranked the single most important issue by 23 per cent of the electorate, nearly double that for health or Iraq and other defence issues."
There you go... proof that asylum and immigration is the NUMBER 1 worry with voters!

I rest my case.

Looks like it will be a fun election after all.

Vote Conservative!

[Fiend_85]

No, it's proof that is a concern for less than a quarter of voters.

[lukesh]

No, it's proof that is a concern for less than a quarter of voters.
So health is even less improtant then? :)

[Fiend_85]

More less? Can you try to speak english please?

It is not a priority for the entire electorate, get your facts straight

[lukesh]

More less? Can you try to speak english please?

It is not a priority for the entire electorate, get your facts straight
Now changed.

It is a FACT that most people are concerned with the immigration system and that the government has lost control. Voters are that concerned about it they are moving to the Tories.

Now get YOUR FACTS right!!

[Fiend_85]

No, MOST people aren't, 23% is NOT most.

[lukesh]

No, MOST people aren't, 23% is NOT most.
You're just driving the point away as usual....

My POINT is that Asylum and Immigration has become the number 1 issue, dispite it only having 23%, its the number 1 issue concerning voters, health is lower, now the government must be concerned, the people are concerned and they have shown this by voting Conservative.
This election should be exciting now!!!

Vote Tory!!

[Fiend_85]

That's not what you've said. You really need to learn english properly.

BTW Here (http://www.mori.com/polls/2005/mpm050124.shtml) is the latest from mori...

[lukesh]

That's not what you've said. You really need to learn english properly.

BTW Here (http://www.mori.com/polls/2005/mpm050124.shtml) is the latest from mori...
Are we trying to change the real success? I have given you the evidense.... LASTEST MORI POLL!!!

Just accept it idiot.

And you're telling me to learn English? You know I have a difficulty with it. So SHUT UP and concentrate on the actual discussion instead of trying to change it as usual.

Vote Conservatives!

[Fiend_85]

I haven't changed it. The latest from MORI doesn't put immigration at the top. YOU didn't give anything, I went to get it.

[lukesh]

I haven't changed it. The latest from MORI doesn't put immigration at the top. YOU didn't give anything, I went to get it.
LOOK back at MY link which is perfectly acceptable and up-to-date.

It is funny that you're trying to change some hard facts... evidense that you don't like... the Tories actually making progress on radical issues such as immigration and asylum. I have told you guys all along these issues affect NORMAL people. You just don't listen, even after respected FT publishes it. More fool you I say!

[freethepeeps]

Mori conducted face-to-face interviews with 1,948 adults aged 18-plus at 193 sampling points across Britain between February 17 and 21.

:wave:

[lukesh]

:wave:
and your point is?

[freethepeeps]

and your point is?


What I said was that the vote wasn't aclear indication of Spanish opinion. It probably was but there wasn't proof to apoint that as less than half voted.

You think that a vote which millions took place in wasn't a clear indication of public opinion, but that a poll that less than 2000 people took part in is.......

[marv]

It is interesting though looking at the popularity rating of Michael Howard; he is as popular as Iain Duncan Smith was just before Howard stabbed him in the back

http://www.mori.com/pubinfo/rmw/michael-howard-less-popular.shtml

Michael Howard's satisfaction rating has sunk to a new low. Now just 22 percent say they are satisfied with his performance as Leader of the Opposition, lower than John Major's January 1997 rating just before Blair's election triumph, two points above Michael Foot in January 1983 before Mrs Thatcher's 143 seat victory that year, 12 points behind where Kinnock was when he lost to Major in 1992, below Hague, and as bad as where Iain Duncan Smith was the month before he was replaced by Howard

Also more people think Tony Blair is the best choice for PM compared to the Kennedy and Howard...

And it gets worse. MORI found that as well as being becalmed for some nearly a year in the low 30s, and reaching new depths in his satisfaction ratings, when asked who would make the best Prime Minister, Michael Howard ties with the Liberal Democratic Leader Charles Kennedy with 17 percent each, with Mr Blair more than double either, at 39 percent saying they believe that Mr Blair is, still, the best of the lot (or possibly, of a bad bunch).

[budda]

Actually freethepeeps polls of 2000 well selected and well used can be statistically very accurate. MORI are rather good at this type of thing.

And Lukesh, you are right, immigration is probably the number one issue, but will they vote that way?

And just because people are really scared about something does NOT make it true.

Lots of children believe in Santa, that doesnt make him come down your chimney.

[freethepeeps]

Perhaps. On the other hand, as we come up the elections we are bound to find all sorts of competing polls coming at us - because they're also used a tool to sway public opinion.

Who pays, who devises the questions, who benefits?

All valid questions when it comes to polls.

[Flashman's Ghost]

People tend not to vote on one issue. So there's probably plenty of Labour voters who are concerned about Immigration, but don't care for Tory policies on other things, so they'll vote Labour.

Conversely there's plenty of Tory voters who couldn't give a flying pig for immigration, but will vote Tory because they agree with Tory policy on Europe or Defence or whatever.

And then there's the majority of the population who will vote Labour, Tory, Lib-Dem, SNP, because that's how they're parents voted and they've always voted that way.

[Aladdin]

You think that a vote which millions took place in wasn't a clear indication of public opinion, but that a poll that less than 2000 people took part in is.......
:D :yes:

[Aladdin]

In any case Luke the title of your thread is a tad misleading is it not?

And you forget to mention that usually opposition parties at this stage tend to be 10 or 12 points ahead (not 2 behind) and still the government ends up winning in many cases.

[+~naomi~+]

Hi,this is my 1st post :wave:

the only thing i cannot get my head around is how anyone can think keeping Blair in power is the right thing to do??!sure, the tories/lib dems have some questionable views about things too but can this country get much worse??i don't think people realise how much independence this country is losing thanks to Blair, and the fact he doesn't actually give a damn about half the things he says he does.

[Blagsta]

Do you remember life under the Tories?

[Aladdin]

Well I despise Blair myself but as far as the country goes, I think generally speaking is going very well. Regardless of what some might claim, most public services have improved and continue to improve and the economy is in a shape the Tories could only dream of achieving.

Voting Tory will mean starving vital public services of cash (resulting in deterioration of the service offered) and a ruined economy, and all because of their obsession with lowering taxes (mainly for the benefit of the rich and well off, naturally) and their failure to provide an answer of where exactly all the money is going to come from.

[+~naomi~+]

well yes, those are the facts.i just think what would happen if b lair stays would be far more sinister than the problems that could arise under a differnt leader...the past is the past,i think we need to think about the kind of country we want to live in in the future.however, just as i knew the americans would keep bush in power, i know the british will keep blair in power :rolleyes:

[Blagsta]

They're all as shit as each other.

[budda]

He maybe a complete git when it comes to wars and civil liberties but he has improved Britain in lots of other ways.

[+~naomi~+]

They're all as shit as each other.


agreed.

[stargalaxy]

There you go... proof that asylum and immigration is the NUMBER 1 worry with voters! Bollocks. Immigration is the number one concern amidst the right-wing press, but that's pretty much it. I'm more interested in health, transport and student tuition fees than in immigration, and I suspect a lot of other people are too.

[Toadborg]

This is the dilemma of the election

a) New Labour are crap in that they betray the values they are supposed to represent to a large degree, they pander to the right wing, especially over immigration, the war etc etc

b) They have done some good things epecially with the economy

c) not voting Labour makes Tory victory more likely and that would be worse in my opinion

So you end up in the shit position of it looking like a good idea to vote for Labour because of naegative i.e.. tactical reasons rather than positive ones........

I wish Blair would sod off and they would get Brown in =, I might vote for him for positive reasons......

[Toadborg]

Bollocks. Immigration is the number one concern amidst the right-wing press, but that's pretty much it. I'm more interested in health, transport and student tuition fees than in immigration, and I suspect a lot of other people are too.

I don't know why people are refusing to beleiev that immigration is such a major issue.

It doesn't make sense and yes a lot of it has been stirred up by the media but really I think some people here have too much faith in the British public........

[budda]

It doesn't make sense and yes a lot of it has been stirred up by the media but really I think some people here have too much faith in the British public........

I dont have any faith in them, I totally believe this non-issue deeply troubles the 'public'.

[Kermit]

how anyone can think keeping Blair in power is the right thing to do??.

Minimum wage.
Working Families Tax Credit.
New Deal.
Sure Start.
Lowest interest rates since forever.
Lowest inflation since forever.
Minimal unemployment.

Do you remember life under the Tories?

Yes.

It was pretty much the same, in some ways it was better, in some ways it was worse. Seeing Thatcher wipe the floor with the trade unions was a pleasure, losing £4billion on poll tax wasn't (although i still don't think the PT was as bad as community tax is now).

Remember, though, that the Conservatives under Kenneth Clarke's chancellry
created the economic conditions under which Labour are thriving. The Tories built the economy up, and did a good job (so much so that Brown just copied them for the first three years of the New Labour government)and Blair gained the credit.

Interesting to note that, according to the Independent, Blair is about as hated as Howard is, and if it wasn't for Brown and the prospect of him becoming PM then Labour's vote would be screwed. Apart from Brown, the entire New Labour cabinet is despised, along with Blair's election team of Millbuirn and Campbell.

[Kermit]

I wish Blair would sod off and they would get Brown in

Why does anyone seriously think that Brown would be any different.

The truth that Brown is more New Labour than Blair is seems to have escaped most people. Brown was as much part of the NL masterplan as Blair and Mandelson were, it's just that Brown talks Blairite politics using Old Labour terminology.

Brown and Blair are two peas in a pod.

[lukesh]

You think that a vote which millions took place in wasn't a clear indication of public opinion, but that a poll that less than 2000 people took part in is.......
Its an opinion poll, stupid!

[lukesh]

In any case Luke the title of your thread is a tad misleading is it not?

And you forget to mention that usually opposition parties at this stage tend to be 10 or 12 points ahead (not 2 behind) and still the government ends up winning in many cases.
I'll tell you its very funny seeing yuo guys trying to defeat the whole point of the thread by saying the poll is invalid etc.

Anyway........

Tories are 2% behinde.... remember 1992 opinion polls? Labour were certain to win the election... oh the Tories won it, with 42% of the popular vote too!

[lukesh]

Bollocks. Immigration is the number one concern amidst the right-wing press, but that's pretty much it. I'm more interested in health, transport and student tuition fees than in immigration, and I suspect a lot of other people are too.
Thats YOU... but that POLL shows that an controversial issue like asylum and immigration is preferenced HIGHER than health.

I am still baffled at you're ignorance of the British peoples worries.

[lukesh]

Guys... the people are trurning to the Conservatives on controversail issues such as asylum and immigration, tax and Europe. Don't you see these are a worry to the people? Health and Education may be a long term concern but the people want to see the asylum and immigration system in good workable order. They are concerned about this. Voters are willing to vote Conservatives on ONE issue because they are sick to death of the lies of this government.

I told you, I could see this coming.

The Toires could win this election if they grab UKIP votes and possibley hundreds of thousands of votes from the BNP.
Oh did you notice that the Lib Dems areback to 18%.... hummm I wonder if the Tories have grabbed a few points off these? ;) Common sense always works.

[Fiend_85]

From Mori (http://www.mori.com/polls/2005/mpm050124.shtml)

Q7 What would you say is the most important issue facing Britain today? (Spontaneous)
Q8 What do you see as other important issues facing Britain today? (Spontaneous)

Q7 Q7/8
% %
Defence/foreign affairs/international terrorism 18 34
National Health Service/Hospitals 11 34
Race relations/immigration/immigrants 13 26
Crime/law & order/violence/vandalism 10 26
Education/schools 5 24
Pensions/social security 3 11
Economy/economic situation 4 10
Housing 2 8
Poverty/inequality 2 8
Taxation 1 8
Unemployment/factory closure/lack of industry 3 7
Common Market/EU/Europe/EURO/Constitution 2 7
Morality/individual behaviour 2 6
Drug abuse 2 5
Pollution/environment 1 5
Transport/public transport * 4
Public services in general 1 3
Tsunami/ South East Asia 1 3
Local government/council tax * 3
Countryside/rural life 1 2
Inflation/prices 1 2
Low pay/minimum wage/fair wages * 2
Nuclear weapons/nuclear war/disarmament * 2
Animal welfare * 1
GM/GM (Genetically Modified) foods * 1
Pound/exchange rate/value of pound * 1
Privatisation * 1
Petrol prices/fuel 0 1
Scottish/Welsh Assembly/Devolution Constitutional reform * *
AIDS 0 *
Foot and mouth outbreak/farming crisis 0 *
Northern Ireland 0 *

Other 7 13
Don't know 7 6


Please excuse the allignment, you can always look at the site direct, but I'm in a rush.

Please note, how immigration is ranked LOWER than health.

I'd like to indicate how that even if immigration is an important issue, that doesn't mean that everyone who rates it highly thinks that we're being deluged.

[lukesh]

Fiend.... so what? Its still a top issue... can't you believe it or something?

[Yerascrote]

Tories are 2% behinde.... remember 1992 opinion polls? Labour were certain to win the election... oh the Tories won it, with 42% of the popular vote too!

i can't actually remember it but didn't the grassroot tories and people on the fence rally around major and got him elected because no one wanted labour in, tis not like that these days, the Tory party are as inept and hated as labour where in the 80's, there will be no landslide shift to the Tories no harm to ya

[Kermit]

Fiend.... so what? Its still a top issue... can't you believe it or something?
Can't you fucking read?

Oh no, of course not.

I'm continually amazed that you acn actually switch the PC on and remember the url of this place...does mummy have to help you?

[lukesh]

i can't actually remember it but didn't the grassroot tories and people on the fence rally around major and got him elected because no one wanted labour in, tis not like that these days, the Tory party are as inept and hated as labour where in the 80's, there will be no landslide shift to the Tories no harm to ya
Labour was reformed...they were certain to win (as the polls suggested). My point is that opinion polls are too close to call a winner. Labour are likely towin the election, howeverdon't take it too seriously,anything could happen.

[Yerascrote]

Labour was reformed...they were certain to win (as the polls suggested).

thing is, the Tories are still stuck in the same ole rut.

[lukesh]

Can't you fucking read?

Oh no, of course not.

I'm continually amazed that you acn actually switch the PC on and remember the url of this place...does mummy have to help you?
Get this in your head.... REAL people are concerned with the asylum and immigration system. Like it or not! Accept it! can youread that? Obviously not. Go get some glasses.

[lukesh]

thing is, the Tories are still stuck in the same ole rut.
You can say that, I believe they are more caring.

The polls show that the Conservatives are gaining, and gaining with their radical policies which you guys call racist too!

[Kermit]

Real people? All of them? Have you asked them all.

Lets have some number crnuching:

population of the UK: 60000000 (approx)
mori sample: 2000.

Um. What's your point again?

ETA: Tories, caring? :lol:

ETA2: The Tories aren't "gaining" anything, their popularity is rather static. labour's popularity is decreasing, but that's a different story.

Aklso, one should note, is that the MORI poll doesn't ask why immigration is an issue. Nowhere does it say "I think immigration is an issue because I think all p.akis should be sent home, dirty fucks that they are"; for all you know, idiot, immigration could be an issue for everyone because they want MORE of it.

[lukesh]

Real people? All of them? Have you asked them all.

Lets have some number crnuching:

population of the UK: 60000000 (approx)
mori sample: 2000.

Um. What's your point again?
Its an OPINION poll idiot. Do you understand what an opinion polls is and how it is conducted? Obviously NOT!

Normal regular people who live in towns and cities know the government has lost control thats why after every poll thats conducted, asylum and immigration become one of the highest priorities and most peoplesaythe government has lost control.

[Kermit]

Its an OPINION poll idiot. Do you understand what an opinion polls is and how it is conducted? Obviously NOT!

Yes.

An opinion poll asks 2000 people for their opinion.

It's like saying that because 2000 people support Wycombe Wanderers that Wycombe Wanderers are the biggest-supported team in the UK.

Or don't you grasp this rather elementary point? Statistics 101 for lukesh.

[lukesh]

Real people? All of them? Have you asked them all.

Lets have some number crnuching:

population of the UK: 60000000 (approx)
mori sample: 2000.

Um. What's your point again?

ETA: Tories, caring? :lol:

ETA2: The Tories aren't "gaining" anything, their popularity is rather static. labour's popularity is decreasing, but that's a different story.

Aklso, one should note, is that the MORI poll doesn't ask why immigration is an issue. Nowhere does it say "I think immigration is an issue because I think all p.akis should be sent home, dirty fucks that they are"; for all you know, idiot, immigration could be an issue for everyone because they want MORE of it.
You've lost the plot. Go bed mate!

[lukesh]

Yes.

An opinion poll asks 2000 people for their opinion.

It's like saying that because 2000 people support Wycombe Wanderers that Wycombe Wanderers are the biggest-supported team in the UK.

Or don't you grasp this rather elementary point? Statistics 101 for lukesh.
Again, its now bed time for you.

[Yerascrote]

The polls show that the Conservatives are gaining, and gaining with their radical policies which you guys call racist too!

i think you have a worrying obsession with the tory party, i know what it feels like, you feel all clah when you see a glimmer of hope, to be honest luke, the Tories aren't going to win the next election, i'll say it's going to be 2013 before people get sick of labour and by then, the lib dems could be main opposition, we'll never know though. :chin:

[Kermit]

You've lost the plot. Go bed mate!
Yes, dear.

What have I said that is incorrect?

[Yerascrote]

You've lost the plot. Go bed mate!

:lol: classic

[lukesh]

i think you have a worrying obsession with the tory party, i know what it feels like, you feel all clah when you see a glimmer of hope, to be honest luke, the Tories aren't going to win the next election, i'll say it's going to be 2013 before people get sick of labour and by then, the lib dems could be main opposition, we'll never know though. :chin:
Lib Dems the opposition? Whos in dream world now?

[lukesh]

Yes, dear.

What have I said that is incorrect?
You're being stupid and just being a tosser. basically saying the opinion poll is incorrect because it doesn't say what you would like it to say. sad! :rolleyes:

[Yerascrote]

Lib Dems the opposition? Whos in dream world now?

is it really that outrageous, the Tories will always have their core vote, however, more and more people just don't see the tories as an attractive party, when they lose these voters, they tend to go elsewhere and the lib dems are a decent alternative for most, though i myself wouldn't trust them myself.

[lukesh]

Personaly, and bearing in mind *pinches skin* that I'm real, I don't give a shit.
I'd much sooner put time into thinking what can be done in these peoples native countries to stop them leaving the place they should love, their home.
I guess that's none of my business really, mind you paying money to the super charity which is the NHS and housing benefits agency doesn't rub me up the wrong way at all.
I just wish more people who are native to this country who's parents and granparents helped build the place would honour that and get of their arses and do some work rather than sit around and deal dope to school kids.
I guess that's none of my business either.

Mmmm. *kicks the can about*
We can't allow unlimited immigration. Lifes not that simple.

[lukesh]

is it really that outrageous, the Tories will always have their core vote, however, more and more people just don't see the tories as an attractive party, when they lose these voters, they tend to go elsewhere and the lib dems are a decent alternative for most, though i myself wouldn't trust them myself.
Jesus.... why are you ehcoing Charles kennedy? The Lib Dems havn't had much gains at all since the party began. They have always been in the 18% - 21% range. They still are, even though they susposed to have made "massive" progress and are now the official opposition. :lol:

[Kermit]

You're being stupid and just being a tosser. basically saying the opinion poll is incorrect because it doesn't say what you would like it to say. sad! :rolleyes:

uh-uh. Reading 101 for lukesh too, it seems.

1. The opinion poll shows that foreign affairs, crime and health are as or more important than immigration.

2. The opinion poll doesn't state why these areas are important for the sample group: immigration is an important area for those who are strongly in favour of immigration, don't forget.

3. A sample of 2000 is not indicative of a population of 60000000. Surely even you can see the discrepancy between those two figures.

4. MORI generally sample "where it matters", i.e in the 100-150 "key" constituencies. Most people don't live in these, or haven't you noticed?

[Kermit]

The Lib Dems havn't had much gains at all since the party began.

Say what?

Go and read some history books, boyo.

[lukesh]

uh-uh. Reading 101 for lukesh too, it seems.

1. The opinion poll shows that foreign affairs, crime and health are as or more important than immigration.

Remember what you said?Its ONLY an opinion poll... conducted by 2,000 people....this is therefore incorrect. Its incorrect until all 60 million have been asked right?

[lukesh]

Say what?

Go and read some history books, boyo.
what has history got to do with it?

Since the Lib Dems became an alliance in the 80's, it hasn't moved in the opinion polls since. It is still in then 18-21% range. However it did have peaks in 84 and 87.

[Yerascrote]

Remember what you said?Its ONLY an opinion poll... conducted by 2,000 people....this is therefore incorrect. Its incorrect until all 60 million have been asked right?

:banghead:

he's making a point you know

basically you said this poll shows that the tories are only 2% behind labour in the election, implying this poll is a good refleciton of public opinion, you then said that asylum was a main issue and thats why people are coming to the tories, now on that assumption, kermit made the point that the poll also suggest there are other just as important issues as asylum, doesn't mean he agrees or disagrees with the utility of opinion polls. (something makes me think you won't understand that)

[lukesh]

:banghead:

he's making a point you know

basically you said this poll shows that the tories are only 2% behind labour in the election, implying this poll is a good refleciton of public opinion, you then said that asylum was a main issue and thats why people are coming to the tories, now on that assumption, kermit made the point that the poll also suggest there are other just as important issues as asylum, doesn't mean he agrees or disagrees with the utility of opinion polls. (something makes me think you won't understand that)
I already knew that....my point was that that issue that so many of you deny as being a problem, is actually a problem and this poll prooves that.

[Yerascrote]

I already knew that....my point was that that issue that so many of you deny as being a problem, is actually a problem and this poll prooves that.

Aye but not the massive problem you make it out to be, very few people are going to be going into the elction with asylum the only thing on their minds, most people care about education, health and public services just as much if not more than asylum, it's an immalgumation of issues, remeber that.

[Kermit]

I already knew that....my point was that that issue that so many of you deny as being a problem, is actually a problem and this poll prooves that.
No it doesn't.

I shall assume that this opinion poll accurately reflects the opinion of the UK. I don't agree that it does, but yeah.

Now this opinion poll shows that for 26% of people, immigration is of concern to them. Now what it doesn't say is how many of these 26% of people think that immigration is a BAD thing, and how many think it is a GOOD thing. Immigration is an important issue for me, because I think that the anti-imigration policies are vile and racist.

Understanding so far, Luke?

Similarly "foreign affairs" is important for 34% of people, but this doesn't say how many are in favour of the Iraq war, how many are against it, and how many have no opinion but think that the wars in Africa are important.

I'm not optimistic of Luke understanding this point, tbh.

[lukesh]

Aye but not the massive problem you make it out to be, very few people are going to be going into the elction with asylum the only thing on their minds, most people care about education, health and public services just as much if not more than asylum, it's an immalgumation of issues, remeber that.
I have neversaid that people ONLY care about asylum and immigration, however I have said that it may be peoples main concerndue to this government making a mess of it.

To conclude, to those who still think that there is no problem with the way people feel about the asylum and immigration system, they need an eye check!

[Kermit]

I should also like to note that it says "factors affecting Britain", not "factors determining where I will vote".

When it comes to election time, the only consistent things that people vote about are health, crime, education and the economy. If you've got a job, a hospital bed and you don't get mugged, people will generally vote for the status quo.

Hague found this out in 2001; "Europe" was an important concern for Britain according to MORI, but in terms of electoral importance it ranked somewhere around having the bins emptied.

[lukesh]

I should also like to note that it says "factors affecting Britain", not "factors determining where I will vote".

When it comes to election time, the only consistent things that people vote about are health, crime, education and the economy. If you've got a job, a hospital bed and you don't get mugged, people will generally vote for the status quo.

Hague found this out in 2001; "Europe" was an important concern for Britain according to MORI, but in terms of electoral importance it ranked somewhere around having the bins emptied.
Still a concern and the opinion poll shown that the Toires actually, this time gaining support.

And what about the Lib Dem chat? What history must I read about them?

[Kermit]

The 60s and 70s history, the horrendous showing in the 88 EU election, the steady rise of parliamentary seats. They are becoming a credible third party, and are doing quite a good job of being the opposition to the Tory/Blairite alliance.

[lukesh]

The 60s and 70s history, the horrendous showing in the 88 EU election, the steady rise of parliamentary seats. They are becoming a credible third party, and are doing quite a good job of being the opposition to the Tory/Blairite alliance.
What progress have they made since the beginning of the 80's?

[Kermit]

They have gone from about two seats (not literally) to 54.

Sounds like progress to me, unless you have a better definition.

[lukesh]

They have gone from about two seats (not literally) to 54.

Sounds like progress to me, unless you have a better definition.
In terms of popular vote they havn't got any better.

However, their popular vote must be more diverse now and less evenly spread as they wouldn't have so many seats.

Back to the point.... overall progress. Slich!

[CptCoatHanger]

I have neversaid that people ONLY care about asylum and immigration, however I have said that it may be peoples main concerndue to this government making a mess of it.

To conclude, to those who still think that there is no problem with the way people feel about the asylum and immigration system, they need an eye check!

Should we build a big wall around the UK and say "No little brown people, thanks".

I'd imagine you believe that if the UK takes on another asylum seeker it'll sink or perhaps you just think that "Britain is full".

Go crawl back into the small minded, intolerant, bigoted hole you crawled out of.

[lukesh]

Should we build a big wall around the UK and say "No little brown people, thanks".

I'd imagine you believe that if the UK takes on another asylum seeker it'll sink or perhaps you just think that "Britain is full".

Go crawl back into the small minded, intolerant, bigoted hole you crawled out of.
You're an idiot with the small mind as you don't have a clue what I believe and you've made an conclusion alreay.

Its NOt racist you know to worry about unlimited immigration you know.

[Kermit]

In terms of popular vote they havn't got any better.

They have, actually, from about 15% to 25%. Facts, read them, instead of spouting gobshite.

However, their popular vote must be more diverse now and less evenly spread as they wouldn't have so many seats.

Back to the point.... overall progress. Slich!

Overall progress is high, as they ahve 54 parliamentary seats. Nobody cares about the "popular vote", seats are all that count. Look at the 1974 election results if you dispute this; Labour and the LIberals were very closely matched in terms of "popular vote", but Labour got about one hundred more seats. Success is about influence, not about "vote"; not under FPTP anyway.

The LDs target seats now, just like the Tories and Labour do. Winning 20% in ever constituency gets you nowhere.

[lukesh]

They have, actually, from about 15% to 25%. Facts, read them, instead of spouting gobshite.

Lib Dems are susposed to be the "opposition". :lol:

Why don't you read the facts properly this time.... 84/87 election LibDems had 25% of the popular vote, now they have 18%. I don't call that progress, infacthey have plummeted.


Overall progress is high, as they ahve 54 parliamentary seats. Nobody cares about the "popular vote", seats are all that count. Look at the 1974 election results if you dispute this; Labour and the LIberals were very closely matched in terms of "popular vote", but Labour got about one hundred more seats. Success is about influence, not about "vote"; not under FPTP anyway.

The LDs target seats now, just like the Tories and Labour do. Winning 20% in ever constituency gets you nowhere.
Facts show that less peopleare voting Lib Dems than they were in the 80's.
Lib Dems are only achieveing more parliamentary seats becasue their vote is less diverse around the country, more concentrated in specific areas, hence them gaining more seat.

Overal progress is slich as less people n w are voting for them than in the 80's and now they claim to be the opposition. :lol:

[wheresmyplacebo]

Lots of children believe in Santa, that doesnt make him come down your chimney.


best response ever

[CptCoatHanger]

You're an idiot with the small mind as you don't have a clue what I believe and you've made an conclusion alreay.

Its NOt racist you know to worry about unlimited immigration you know.


Everything you write is laced with right wing bull shit.

What EXACTLY is your problem with immigration?

Is it that the whole fucking country needs and is founded on immigrants and settlers!

The more people the country i live in can offer salvation to the better. Our immigration policies as they stand don't allow anywhere near as many asylum seekers as i'd like to see into the country.

Every county should open their doors to people wanting to flee their war torn, dictatorship countries.

What exactly is your problem with people seeking asylum?

Did someone tell you they saw some coloured people shooting swans in the local park?

[Mad Mac]

Everything you write is laced with right wing bull shit.

What EXACTLY is your problem with immigration?

Is it that the whole fucking country needs and is founded on immigrants and settlers!

The more people the country i live in can offer salvation to the better. Our immigration policies as they stand don't allow anywhere near as many asylum seekers as i'd like to see into the country.

Every county should open their doors to people wanting to flee their war torn, dictatorship countries.

What exactly is your problem with people seeking asylum?

Did someone tell you they saw some coloured people shooting swans in the local park?
well i certainly want immigration controlled!we are only a small country,you people are just shit scared of being called a racist! so you become p.c to the point of stupidity!
what about the people that were born in this country?when are we going to start thinking about them and their rights?

[freethepeeps]

well i certainly want immigration controlled!we are only a small country,you people are just shit scared of being called a racist! so you become p.c to the point of stupidity!
what about the people that were born in this country?when are we going to start thinking about them and their rights?

What rights are they being denied?

[Fiend_85]

Lukesh, you're an idiot. End of.

[Mad Mac]

What rights are they being denied?
the right to be able to speak your mind for a start! without being called a racist! it doesnt seem to work the other way.
i,m sick of people accusing others of being racist!...at the drop of a hat.

[freethepeeps]

the right to be able to speak your mind for a start! without being called a racist! it doesnt seem to work the other way.
i,m sick of people accusing others of being racist!...at the drop of a hat.

Okay, so besides the right to say racist things, what rights are the Brits being denied?

not that I've noticed to many inhibitions about expressing racist views in this country....

[Mad Mac]

Okay, so besides the right to say racist things, what rights are the Brits being denied?
obviously they have rights..and i also know the angle your trying to set up,you,ll start banging on about the rights denied by people in war torn countries next.
why does it have to be our problem??we have enough problems of our own!...

[freethepeeps]

obviously they have rights..and i also know the angle your trying to set up,you,ll start banging on about the rights denied by people in war torn countries next.
why does it have to be our problem??we have enough problems of our own!...

It would be hard to deny that many people are seeking asylum from very awful situations. But that isn't relevant here.

You said it was time we started thinking about British people and their rights, and I'm trying to find out what exactly you mean by that.

So far, all you've offered is the fact that if you speak your mind people call you racist.

[Mad Mac]

It would be hard to deny that many people are seeking asylum from very awful situations. But that isn't relevant here.

You said it was time we started thinking about British people and their rights, and I'm trying to find out what exactly you mean by that.

So far, all you've offered is the fact that if you speak your mind people call you racist.
ok,i lot of white british people,(myself included) feel that all the attention seems to go to ethnic minorities by the government,and p.c fanatics.
there are issues such as council housing....which seems to go more and more to people that havent been here very long.and its the view of alot of people,certainly in this area hold.so they see it as the more we let in the less chance there is for them.

[freethepeeps]

So, theres lot of homeless white people, cos all the council housing has been taken by immigrants?

I always thought it was Maggie Thatcher who sounded the death knell for council housing....

[Mad Mac]

So, theres lot of homeless white people, cos all the council housing has been taken by immigrants?

I always thought it was Maggie Thatcher who sounded the death knell for council housing....
you know i,m not saying that!..but truth is all immigrants need housing!where the fuck are they going live? people in this country have problems too!!!! thats what i,m saying!

[freethepeeps]

you know i,m not saying that!..but truth is all immigrants need housing!where the fuck are they going live? people in this country have problems too!!!! thats what i,m saying!

Sure people over here have problems..... although usually not on the same scale as the regimes that people are fleeing.

Is there any evidence that life has got harder for British people because of immigration though? And, within British society theres a tendency for more people to live on their own, so we need more housing to meet the needs. Some of that housing will be financed by taxes from immigrants though ....

:)

[Mad Mac]

[QUOTE=freethepeeps]Sure people over here have problems..... although usually not on the same scale as the regimes that people are fleeing.

Is there any evidence that life has got harder for British people because of immigration though? And, within British society theres a tendency for more people to live on their own, so we need more housing to meet the needs. Some of that housing will be financed by taxes from immigrants though ....
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

its the rate of influx that worries a lot of people i think..i take your point that a lot will work and contribute,but there will be the ones that dont.
immigration needs to be tightend up in my opinion,and thats not to say i dont have sympathy for people trying to get into this country.its just like i said earlier,we are a small country with our own domestic problems..people need to realise that! :)

[Mad Mac]

dont know what happend there??

[Blagsta]

New Deal.
Sure Start.

You're having a laugh mate. Both of these (from experience of having to refer clients to New Deal and having a friend work for Sure Start) are jokes. Underfunded, over bureacratic jokes.


Seeing Thatcher wipe the floor with the trade unions was a pleasure,

Just as I think you're OK, you say something as shit as this. You don't remember the 1980's much do you?

[Blagsta]

P.S.
If the tories built the economy up and it's doing really well, why are there more homeless people than ever before? Why is there more drug addiction and hopelessness? More begging? Why can't most people afford to buy property in London? Why do I have to spend nearly half my wages on rent? The economy is doing well for a small number of people. The majority are still fucked.

[freethepeeps]

dont know what happend there??

No - me neither. It does seem however that your views on immigration are more likely to be affected by tabloid scaremongering than by any kind of real threat to your rights.

[lukesh]

Everything you write is laced with right wing bull shit.

What EXACTLY is your problem with immigration?

Is it that the whole fucking country needs and is founded on immigrants and settlers!

The more people the country i live in can offer salvation to the better. Our immigration policies as they stand don't allow anywhere near as many asylum seekers as i'd like to see into the country.

Every county should open their doors to people wanting to flee their war torn, dictatorship countries.

What exactly is your problem with people seeking asylum?

Did someone tell you they saw some coloured people shooting swans in the local park?
gee... where the hell do you have all this shit from? I DO NOT have aproblem with asylum and immigration. However I do have a problem with the governemnts handling of it. Theres a difference. Its a shame some people can't identify the difference.
You're an arse and always will be one. The best thing you do is throw the racist card but you're not very good at it. I advise you to give up and get lost.

[lukesh]

Get this in your skull.... it is NOT racist to be against unlimited immigration. Those who say it is needs to understand the system a bit more and to understand the term racist.

Opinion poll after opinion poll prooves that MOST people (YOU guys don't represent publci opinion I know you'll find that hard to believe but its the truth), believe that this government has lost control of the immigration system.
The only option is to accept facts not you're own pathetic opinions.

[freethepeeps]

Get this in your skull.... it is NOT racist to be against unlimited immigration. Those who say it is needs to understand the system a bit more and to understand the term racist.

Opinion poll after opinion poll prooves that MOST people (YOU guys don't represent publci opinion I know you'll find that hard to believe but its the truth), believe that this government has lost control of the immigration system.
The only option is to accept facts not you're own pathetic opinions.

First of all, there clearly isn't unlimited immigration....

Secondly, believing that santa claus comes down the chimney doesn't mean he does.

I'm looking forward to your comments on Blerim (http://vbulletin.thesite.org.uk/showpost.php?p=1248511&postcount=42)

Tell me how much you think what is happening to him is justified.

Then give me facts rather than opinions which show that the state has lost control of the immigration process.

Or its coming right backatcha....

[lukesh]

First of all, there clearly isn't unlimited immigration....

Secondly, believing that santa claus comes down the chimney doesn't mean he does.

I'm looking forward to your comments on Blerim (http://vbulletin.thesite.org.uk/showpost.php?p=1248511&postcount=42)

Tell me how much you think what is happening to him is justified.
You've gone off the topic on this thread.... so fuck reading your shit mate.

This thread was susposed to be about how the Tories are making progress not another bickering war on asylum and immigration where as most of us know this government has lost control, they have even admitted it them selves, there is however a small minority of disillusioned people who think thre system is perfect.

Right before you say I am running off I have got to go to lesson, cya!

[freethepeeps]

You've gone off the topic on this thread.... so fuck reading your shit mate.

This thread was susposed to be about how the Tories are making progress not another bickering war on asylum and immigration where as most of us know this government has lost control, they have even admitted it them selves, there is however a small minority of disillusioned people who think thre system is perfect.

Right before you say I am running off I have got to go to lesson, cya!

You know what? I think you'll find I've responded to points made on the thread - erm, including yours - and Michael Howard has elected to make immigration a central issue.

I look forward to facts rather than fairystories to back up your assertions.

And I am interested in how you justify what is happening to Blerim.

ETA: And reading back over the thread, it seems that from the start there was a poster who kept making immigration an issue. A poster called lukesh. Now when it comes to backing up the claims, suddenly immigration is off topic ..... hmmmm

[Toadborg]

Seeing Thatcher wipe the floor with the trade unions was a pleasure, losing £4billion on poll tax wasn't (although i still don't think the PT was as bad as community tax is now).



'Seeing'

You weren't even born when thatcher was elelcted?

:confused:

[lukesh]

You know what? I think you'll find I've responded to points made on the thread - erm, including yours - and Michael Howard has elected to make immigration a central issue.

The Tories do well with issues such as immigration and asylum - they are popular, therefore Howard will use these as election issues.
They concern people, Howard has a good popular policy, of course he is going to use it. Use your head!


ETA: And reading back over the thread, it seems that from the start there was a poster who kept making immigration an issue. A poster called lukesh. Now when it comes to backing up the claims, suddenly immigration is off topic ..... hmmmm
:) Immigration and asylum is a concern to most of the British population. Face the facts.

[freethepeeps]

:) Immigration and asylum is a concern to most of the British population. Face the facts.

I'm aware that theres a racist tabloid and tory fuelled backlash against immigrants, and that it flies in the face of the facts.

Now, do you actually have facts to back up your assertion that the government has lost control of the immigration issue, or are you just going to keep repeating unsubstantiated bollocks?


:confused:

[lukesh]

I'm aware that theres a racist tabloid and tory fuelled backlash against immigrants, and that it flies in the face of the facts.

Now, do you actually have facts to back up your assertion that the government has lost control of the immigration issue, or are you just going to keep repeating unsubstantiated bollocks?


:confused:
Facts... remember Blunkett admitting he had lost control or didn't you even hear as you avoid anything you don't want to hear? I thought so. Anyway he said he hasn't a clue how many he had let in and the system needed major reform. Blair agrees and still to this day says the system is a mess and he has not pledged to Control immigration as this works best than unlimited immigration, unless they will fit up your arse?

[Yerascrote]

you read too many papers luke, let your heart and soul do the talking, there is a human inside you somewhere i know it, you're letting your head get to you too much.

[freethepeeps]

Blair agrees and still to this day says the system is a mess and he has not pledged to Control immigration as this works best than unlimited immigration, unless they will fit up your arse?

You've been on the crack again, right?

I've done a google and I can't find this statement you claim the bastard made. Care to provide a source? Its the usual way of backing up a claim you know.

[lukesh]

you read too many papers luke, let your heart and soul do the talking, there is a human inside you somewhere i know it, you're letting your head get to you too much.
Facts mate, sorry if they tear you paart. :)

[lukesh]

You've been on the crack again, right?

I've done a google and I can't find this statement you claim the bastard made. Care to provide a source? Its the usual way of backing up a claim you know.
There is no point, you'll deny anything thats a fact.

Crack? I don't stoop that low. I have a brain that tells me it is capable of coping with out smack head aide.

[freethepeeps]

There is no point, you'll deny anything thats a fact.

Crack? I don't stoop that low. I have a brain that tells me it is capable of coping with out smack head aide.

So, erm, you don't have a source. I have to tell you that the idea of Bastard B admitting he fucked up is, well, fairly fucking unbelievable.

:wave:

[Yerascrote]

Facts mate, sorry if they tear you paart. :)

see this is where me and alot of others i assume differ from your kind, i know soo many of your kind, feel sorry for you, there's more to life than just facts and figures, try and find the depth of your conscience, explore your mind luke and see what happens, you might turn a new page.

[lukesh]

see this is where me and alot of others i assume differ from your kind, i know soo many of your kind, feel sorry for you, there's more to life than just facts and figures, try and find the depth of your conscience, explore your mind luke and see what happens, you might turn a new page.
Mate you live in northen Ireland I bet you have never seen an asylum seeker or even spoken to one.

I feel so sorry for you smoking your life away. Its really sad that someone so young is still following the 60's graze of smoking is cool and makes me look rock solid.

Try the gym for seld esteem.

[freethepeeps]

Mate you live in northen Ireland I bet you have never seen an asylum seeker or even spoken to one.

I feel so sorry for you smoking your life away. Its really sad that someone so young is still following the 60's graze of smoking is cool and makes me look rock solid.

Try the gym for seld esteem.

This thread was susposed to be about how the Tories are making progress not another bickering war on asylum and immigration where as most of us know this government has lost control, they have even admitted it them selves, there is however a small minority of disillusioned people who think thre system is perfect.

Oh me, oh my .......


:hyper:

[Yerascrote]

Mate you live in northen Ireland I bet you have never seen an asylum seeker or even spoken to one.

I feel so sorry for you smoking your life away. Its really sad that someone so young is still following the 60's graze of smoking is cool and makes me look rock solid.

Try the gym for seld esteem.

is there something wrong with asylum seekers that i should not want to meet one, i must admit there aren't many around here but i have seen a few, they don't hassle me, why should i care if they come here for work and benefit our economy. :confused:

i like to play football, i cycle on my bike sometimes, i go to school, i have ambition and a future, i'm no lazy depressed stoner, i do drugs cos i like the buzz, hard to understand, for you yes...for most no.

[lukesh]

Right back to topic.... :)

[lukesh]

is there something wrong with asylum seekers that i should not want to meet one, i must admit there aren't many around here but i have seen a few, they don't hassle me, why should i care if they come here for work and benefit our economy. :confused:

Yeah.... no one is condeming the asylum seekers and immigrants who have a right to be here.


i like to play football, i cycle on my bike sometimes, i go to school, i have ambition and a future, i'm no lazy depressed stoner, i do drugs cos i like the buzz, hard to understand, for you yes...for most no.
Can't you find another buz such as sex? :)

[freethepeeps]

Right back to topic.... :)

Remind us what it was. Its all got soooo confused. Its about how the great British public think we have unlimited immigration, and how Blunkett admitted that was the case, but you haven't actually got a source to back that up.

Is that right?


:confused:

[lukesh]

Remind us what it was. Its all got soooo confused. Its about how the great British public think we have unlimited immigration, and how Blunkett admitted that was the case, but you haven't actually got a source to back that up.

Is that right?


:confused:
Go back to your world while I'll stay with the majority of this countries view on the system.

[freethepeeps]

Go back to your world while I'll stay with the majority of this countries view on the system.

Yes, racist fairystories suit you more than facts.

I can understand that.


;)

[Yerascrote]

Can't you find another buz such as sex? :)

well sex isn't always a garauntee, i can trust drugs but sex is a bonus yes

[wheresmyplacebo]

The Tories do well with issues such as immigration and asylum - they are popular, therefore Howard will use these as election issues.
They concern people, Howard has a good popular policy, of course he is going to use it. Use your head!


:) Immigration and asylum is a concern to most of the British population. Face the facts.


lynch mobs are popular luke

bolsheviks and mensheviks were popular in russia in the 1910's

the nazis were popular in the 30s

popularity/= good idea necesserily

luke seriously most peoples 'fears' of immigration have come from slightly exagerrated news stories etc they think "all these refugees coming here getting benefits and help and im not" - which to an extent is true, however youre expected to support yuorself up to a point whilst these peopel tend to have nothing so need more help, however dont get as much help as the daily hatemail or the sun or the express says, they get a roof over their heads and food vouchers and a little money which is the bare minumum

luke get me? you know i dont try patronising you or anything, im trying to encourage you to debate better cause very rarely you make an okay point

[lukesh]

Yes, racist fairystories suit you more than facts.

I can understand that.


;)
Racist! LOL So funny. :)

[lukesh]

well sex isn't always a garauntee, i can trust drugs but sex is a bonus yes
Sex has many more benefits than crap.

[freethepeeps]

Racist! LOL So funny. :)

And soooo true.

"Asylum seekers ate queens swan"

:yum:

[lukesh]

lynch mobs are popular luke

bolsheviks and mensheviks were popular in russia in the 1910's

the nazis were popular in the 30s

popularity/= good idea necesserily

luke seriously most peoples 'fears' of immigration have come from slightly exagerrated news stories etc they think "all these refugees coming here getting benefits and help and im not" - which to an extent is true, however youre expected to support yuorself up to a point whilst these peopel tend to have nothing so need more help, however dont get as much help as the daily hatemail or the sun or the express says, they get a roof over their heads and food vouchers and a little money which is the bare minumum

luke get me? you know i dont try patronising you or anything, im trying to encourage you to debate better cause very rarely you make an okay point
Most peoples concern is that most of the failed asylum seekers and illegal immigrants are not sent back.

Racism doesnt come into it until some dickhead who hasn't a clue spouts it.

[lukesh]

And soooo true.

"Asylum seekers ate queens swan"

:yum:
You said it, not me. Racist!

[freethepeeps]

You said it, not me. Racist!

It was your glorious Sun wot seddit.

Anyway, as usual you prove yourself totally incapable of engaging


:wave:

[lukesh]

It was your glorious Sun wot seddit.

Anyway, as usual you prove yourself totally incapable of engaging


:wave:
You again have prooved that you talk a lot of bollocks. Go and find something else to do, you call this fun? You must be a boring guy.

[Kentish]

You again have prooved that you talk a lot of bollocks. Go and find something else to do, you call this fun? You must be a boring guy.
Girl, I think.

[lukesh]

Girl, I think.
It says male in his/her profile.

[freethepeeps]

Girl, I think.

Nope.

You again have prooved that you talk a lot of bollocks. Go and find something else to do, you call this fun? You must be a boring guy.

Sun headline (4 July 03): Asylum seekers steal the Queen’s birds for barbecues

The frontpage headline appeared under the title ‘SWAN BAKE’ and a picture of a swan.

The ‘exclusive’ article claimed: ‘Callous asylum seekers are barbecuing the Queen’s swans, the Sun can reveal. East European poachers lure the protected royal birds into baited traps, am official Met Police report says.’ Its reporter went on: ‘Police swooped on a group of East Europeans and caught them red handed about to cook a pair of royal swans in a park in Beckton, East London… hundreds of the graceful creatures have been killed.’ A ‘police source’ was quoted as saying: ‘It’s tragic that people from abroad don’t respect our traditions.’

In just 24 hours, the Sun ‘exclusive’ was exposed as lies. There was no police swoop and no Met police report. The police said: ‘The decline in the swan population is attributed to East Europeans. We stress we have no evidence of this.’

Source (http://www.goacom.com/overseas-digest/Media/tabloids&AS3.html)

Hmm, I missed "Asylum seekers eat our donkeys"......

[lukesh]

and what do you want me to do about it?

[thebucketwoman]

The gap in the polls will widen again after people remember how awful everything was in 1997 after decades of Tory rule. It takes more than 8 years to repair all that damage.

[freethepeeps]

and what do you want me to do about it?

To start understanding that the tabloids and politicos feed into, and feed the racist backlash which makes discussion of the reality of immigration a nightmare, and which ends up with genuine asylum seekers being incarcerated, and deported back to repressive regimes, and in some cases almost certain death.

Paul Foot said in 1976: 'Race hate and race violence does not rise and fall according to the numbers of immigrants coming to Britain. It rises and falls to the extent to which people's prejudices are inflamed and made respectable by politicians and newspapers.' (ibid)

So, when you say "Go back to your world while I'll stay with the majority of this countries view on the system", you're opting to plump for the racist bigotry and fuelling something that creates violence and injustice.

[morrocan roll]

To start understanding that the tabloids and politicos feed into, and feed the racist backlash which makes discussion of the reality of immigration a nightmare, and which ends up with genuine asylum seekers being incarcerated, and deported back to repressive regimes, and in some cases almost certain death.



So, when you say "Go back to your world while I'll stay with the majority of this countries view on the system", you're opting to plump for the racist bigotry and fuelling something that creates violence and injustice.
well said.

[lukesh]

Fucking crazy!

[morrocan roll]

Fucking crazy!
an admission from luke at last!

[Kermit]

You're having a laugh mate. Both of these (from experience of having to refer clients to New Deal and having a friend work for Sure Start) are jokes. Underfunded, over bureacratic jokes.

Just playing Devil's Advocate, I'm as well aware as you are that both these schemes are a complete and utter load of bollocks. They should be better, but aren't; If Blair followed his rhetoric instead of his neo-Thatcherite politics then maybe they wouldn't be.

For the record, the trade unions were due to be knocked back, and Thatcher provided it. She wasn't as wonderful as the Tories claim, but crucially she sure wasn't as bad as the left-wing claim.

As for your comments about housing price, unfortunately high housing costs do indicate a strong economy. Interesting how you vilify the Tories for the current housing costs when it's happened under New Labour, and it's interesting how the Tories' reputation was destroyed by a collapse in the housing market.

[wheresmyplacebo]

Most peoples concern is that most of the failed asylum seekers and illegal immigrants are not sent back.

Racism doesnt come into it until some dickhead who hasn't a clue spouts it.


there isnt that many, and personally id like to see what spain done, which is have an amnesty where any illegal immigrants who can prove theyve had a job for past 6 months can claim a work visa, and thus get out of illegal conditions and screw over their even more evil employers

[Mad Mac]

well said.
well said?? yes it was well said!....but!!!!!!he doesnt live in the real world!!..wake up and smell the coffee!!!

[Mad Mac]

tabloids....tabloids....tabloids!!!! not everyone reads the fuckin tabloids!! dick ed!

[Mad Mac]

racist....racist...racist!!aaaaaaaaaaaaa! just stop posting the same old predictable shit!

[freethepeeps]

racist....racist...racist!!aaaaaaaaaaaaa! just stop posting the same old predictable shit!

Too much to drink?

[Kermit]

tabloids....tabloids....tabloids!!!! not everyone reads the fuckin tabloids!! dick ed!
Clever boy.

Go and play with the traffic.

[Blagsta]

For the record, the trade unions were due to be knocked back,

Why's that then?

As for your comments about housing price, unfortunately high housing costs do indicate a strong economy.

In a particular narrow definition of what "strong economy" means.

[Man Of Kent]

Why's that then?

Do you really need to ask?

Because they weilded too much power and had become too militant in their demands. Effectively they had too much power in how the country was being run.

What we have now is the opposite and no better for the country IMHO

[Blagsta]

Personally i think workers should have the most say in how things are run.

[Man Of Kent]

Personally i think workers should have the most say in how things are run.

Sadly, just as too many owners take the piss, so do too many workers.

That is problem which helped bring Maggie to power.

[lukesh]

Personally i think workers should have the most say in how things are run.
They very much do these days - as I have learnt in Business Studies.

[Blagsta]

Sadly, just as too many owners take the piss, so do too many workers.

That is problem which helped bring Maggie to power.

Depends on whether you think capitalism and profit is a good thing.

[Man Of Kent]

Depends on whether you think capitalism and profit is a good thing.

Depnds on whether you think having a job at all is a good thing...

[lukesh]

Depends on whether you think capitalism and profit is a good thing.
With out it we don't have anything.

[Blagsta]

Depnds on whether you think having a job at all is a good thing...

You've lost me.

[Man Of Kent]

I know, it's probably a concept you struggle with, but the workers don't actually always know what is best. Any more than the owners do.

Surely even with your miopic view you can see that the demands being made by the workers in the 70s were actually dragging this country down...

[Blagsta]

I know, it's probably a concept you struggle with, but the workers don't actually always know what is best. Any more than the owners do.

Personally I think that things should be run for the benefit of everyone, not just a privilged few.

Surely even with your miopic view you can see that the demands being made by the workers in the 70s were actually dragging this country down...

Maybe demanding fair pay and working conditions is myopic in your book. You think the country is doing well now? We're working longer hours for less pay than ever before, job insecurity is at an all time high, most people can't afford to buy their own homes, there is more homelessness than ever before. If you think thats a good thing then fair enough, but I don't...

[Man Of Kent]

Personally I think that things should be run for the benefit of everyone, not just a privilged few.

I wouldn't disagree with that, only to suggests that those who invest up front in the company should get bigger rewards...

You think the country is doing well now?

Actually, if you read what I wrote earlier you would note that I felt that things had gone too far as a result of Maggie...

[The Matadore]

Maybe demanding fair pay and working conditions is myopic in your book

No, but demanding a 3 day week is.

[Blagsta]

No, but demanding a 3 day week is.

Actually I think a 3 day week is an excellent idea.

[lukesh]

Actually I think a 3 day week is an excellent idea.
go do it then.

[Kermit]

Maybe demanding fair pay and working conditions is myopic in your book.

Now, of course, the emphasis should be on the word "fair". I do a job with no skill required, and no responsibility, so a fair wage wouldn't be as high as, say, the guy who runs the entire company. This is a point that you seem to miss: the guy who runs the company is more important than the minion doing a date entry job. I'm not as important as my boss, who isn't as important as her boss, so I don't get paid as much as them.

Fair enough, non?

You think the country is doing well now? We're working longer hours for less pay than ever before, job insecurity is at an all time high, most people can't afford to buy their own homes, there is more homelessness than ever before. If you think thats a good thing then fair enough, but I don't...

Statistics, please.

People can't afford to buy their own homes, but why is this so important? Ownership isn't as important on the continent, it never has been, why is it so much more important in this country?

I can afford to rent my own flat quite comfortably, and I'm earning £5 an hour. What you mean is that people can't afford to live in the places that they would desire to live; well, I'd love a house in Ponteland, but it isn't a great and terrible social injustice that I'm having to make do with a flat in Fenham.

[Blagsta]

Now, of course, the emphasis should be on the word "fair". I do a job with no skill required, and no responsibility, so a fair wage wouldn't be as high as, say, the guy who runs the entire company. This is a point that you seem to miss: the guy who runs the company is more important than the minion doing a date entry job. I'm not as important as my boss, who isn't as important as her boss, so I don't get paid as much as them.

Fair enough, non?


No. The company could not run without someone doing your job. If you were paid the value of the work you did, then fair enough. But you're not. the profit has to come from somewhere and it comes from you not being paid the value of the work you do.

Statistics, please.

Look around you.

People can't afford to buy their own homes, but why is this so important? Ownership isn't as important on the continent, it never has been, why is it so much more important in this country?

I can afford to rent my own flat quite comfortably, and I'm earning £5 an hour. What you mean is that people can't afford to live in the places that they would desire to live; well, I'd love a house in Ponteland, but it isn't a great and terrible social injustice that I'm having to make do with a flat in Fenham.

It may be OK for you, try and live in London on £5/hour.

[Kermit]

Yeah, but that was my point: people can't strictly afford to live where they want to, but that doesn't mean it's a social injustice. Everyone wants to live in London, and prices reflect this.

Not that I understand why anyone would want to live there, but still.

As for your first point, it depends on how you consider profit. I work for an insurance company, and they make money by selling things at a greater cost than it costs to produce them. So far, so fair.

Why is profit immoral? Why is putting money and effort into something, and reaping the rewards of that money and effort, immoral?

[The Matadore]

Actually I think a 3 day week is an excellent idea.

Why?

[Blagsta]

Yeah, but that was my point: people can't strictly afford to live where they want to, but that doesn't mean it's a social injustice. Everyone wants to live in London, and prices reflect this.

Not that I understand why anyone would want to live there, but still.

So people not being able to live where there friends and families are isn't a social injustice? What is a social injustice in your book?

As for your first point, it depends on how you consider profit. I work for an insurance company, and they make money by selling things at a greater cost than it costs to produce them. So far, so fair.

Why is profit immoral? Why is putting money and effort into something, and reaping the rewards of that money and effort, immoral?

Because its based on exploitation and not paying people what their labour is worth.

[Blagsta]

Why?

Because I like my free time. Don't you like free time?

[The Matadore]

Are you serious?

YOu would cripple the economy of the UK just because you believe that people should have more free time?

[Kermit]

Because its based on exploitation and not paying people what their labour is worth.

All profit does this, does it?

So you believe that the owner of a business, the person who finances the company and creates the jobs of his workers, should work for free?

[Blagsta]

Are you serious?

YOu would cripple the economy of the UK just because you believe that people should have more free time?

How would it cripple the economy? Do you think "the economy" is more important than individual people? You think money is more important than the quality of people's lives?

[Kermit]

So people not being able to live where there friends and families are isn't a social injustice? What is a social injustice in your book?


I understand your point, but I think it misses mine.

Not everyone can afford to live in the desirable areas, I don't see why this is a terrible social tragedy. There are plenty of affordable places, they just aren't in the "desirable" areas.

Why should the owner of a property be forced to sell his property for less than the maximum price he can obtain?

[The Matadore]

Thats just it, the quality of peoples lives would drop drastically because the economy would be crippled by its extreme lack of competitiveness.

[Blagsta]

All profit does this, does it?

Yes. Where else do you think it comes from?

So you believe that the owner of a business, the person who finances the company and creates the jobs of his workers, should work for free?

Did I say that? I believe that businesses should not be run for profit. As long as everyone gets a fair wage, the overheads are paid and there is a budget for r&d etc, why does a profit need to be created? Why does it need to be increased year on year? Its sheer selfish greed.

[Blagsta]

Thats just it, the quality of peoples lives would drop drastically because the economy would be crippled by its extreme lack of competitiveness.


How would that happen? There's more than enough people to do the work.

[Blagsta]

I understand your point, but I think it misses mine.

Not everyone can afford to live in the desirable areas, I don't see why this is a terrible social tragedy. There are plenty of affordable places, they just aren't in the "desirable" areas.

No you missed my point. People can barely afford to live in poor areas of London.

Why should the owner of a property be forced to sell his property for less than the maximum price he can obtain?

Because people are more important than money?

[The Matadore]

How would that happen? There's more than enough people to do the work.

'the work'? please define what you mean here.

[Kermit]

I believe that businesses should not be run for profit.

The owner's "wage" comes from profit.

The shopkeeper who employs a Saturday help earns more from her than he pays her, and that seems fair enough to me, otherwise there would be no point in providing that employment.

I quite agree that a fair wage should be paid, but I don't agree that "profit" is necessarily something that prevents this from being the case.

[Kermit]

Because people are more important than money?

How would you decide which people were more important?

The definition of a desirable area is an area in which more people want to live than there are homes.

[Blagsta]

'the work'? please define what you mean here.

Errrr...the work that would be have been done in the other 2 days.

[Blagsta]

The owner's "wage" comes from profit.

If the owner works then it comes from labour. If they don't work then they are living off someone elses labour.

The shopkeeper who employs a Saturday help earns more from her than he pays her, and that seems fair enough to me, otherwise there would be no point in providing that employment.

So exploitation is OK?

I quite agree that a fair wage should be paid, but I don't agree that "profit" is necessarily something that prevents this from being the case.

Its basic economics. Where do you think that surplus value comes from?

[Kermit]

If the owner works then it comes from labour. If they don't work then they are living off someone elses labour.

Providing capital is labour.

So exploitation is OK?

If you define that as exploitation, then yes, it is. I'm sure the Saturday help would rather be "exploited" than unemployed.

If the owner doesn't have any benefit from employing someone, then why would they employ them? If a company makes zero from it's investment in a person, then there's no point in investing in them.

Its basic economics. Where do you think that surplus value comes from?

I think we have very different definitions of "fair".

You seem to be defining "fair" as "an equal share of the profit", which is nonsensical.

[Blagsta]

Providing capital is labour.

No it isn't.


If you define that as exploitation, then yes, it is. I'm sure the Saturday help would rather be "exploited" than unemployed.

If the owner doesn't have any benefit from employing someone, then why would they employ them? If a company makes zero from it's investment in a person, then there's no point in investing in them.

Why does a company need a profit?

I think we have very different definitions of "fair".

You seem to be defining "fair" as "an equal share of the profit", which is nonsensical.

No, i'm arguing against the entire concept of profit.

[morrocan roll]

No it isn't.




Why does a company need a profit?



No, i'm arguing against the entire concept of profit.
dream on blagsta.
people don't work their bollox off cos they care about you ...they do so cos partly they have to and partly because they WANT ...things and money in the bank.
all this equality crap is pipedream politics.

[lukesh]

blagsta communism is dead we are a capitalist conservative society so go live in china if u want communism

[Kermit]

Why does a company need a profit?

In theory it doesn't, you are correct.

But in reality, companies wouldn't be set up if people weren't going to make money out of it. No incentive = no point.

[Blagsta]

dream on blagsta.
people don't work their bollox off cos they care about you ...they do so cos partly they have to and partly because they WANT ...things and money in the bank.
all this equality crap is pipedream politics.

I don't necessarily agree. People do help each other out, I see it every day.

[Blagsta]

In theory it doesn't, you are correct.

But in reality, companies wouldn't be set up if people weren't going to make money out of it. No incentive = no point.

But people get paid enough, so why do companies need more year on year?

[Kermit]

You seem to be getting inconsistent, are you arguing against profit or are you arguing against excessive profit?

Banks posting profit in the billions is wrong, and every single employee should get a bonus from those profits. But the bank posting a profit is not wrong, as it is their "fair wage".

[The Matadore]

I don't necessarily agree. People do help each other out, I see it every day.

Blagsta, people like to own stuff and buy nice things, so your ideal of a profitless society would collapse pretty quickly.

[Blagsta]

Blagsta, people like to own stuff and buy nice things, so your ideal of a profitless society would collapse pretty quickly.

I'm not arguing against people owning stuff and having nice things. I don't know why you think I am. :confused:

[Blagsta]

You seem to be getting inconsistent, are you arguing against profit or are you arguing against excessive profit?

Banks posting profit in the billions is wrong, and every single employee should get a bonus from those profits. But the bank posting a profit is not wrong, as it is their "fair wage".

No I'm not being inconistent, you're not following what I say. Try reading it again.

[Yerascrote]

I don't necessarily agree. People do help each other out, I see it every day.

you can't combine socio-economic desires and morality, i'll help someone who needs it but i'm not going to drop out of school and be an idealist if i can get an education, get a job, get a life, thats the dream, i see where you're coming from and i do empathize but lets face it, the world just doesn't work like the way you aspire it to.

[Kermit]

Gah. I've read it fine, and you appear to be confusing profit and corporate excess.

Out of interest, do you believe that pay discrepancies are fair?

And you never did answer my question about how property owners should decide who is most deserving of purchasing something.

[Blagsta]

To be honest, I do know that is a bit idealistic, I don't have any answers these days, but I do find a class approach quite useful in trying to understand where interests lie. I do however think that the current system is based on exploitation and greed and most people can't see any other alternative due to how capitalism operates and doesn't give any space in mass media etc for alternative points of view.

[Blagsta]

Gah. I've read it fine, and you appear to be confusing profit and corporate excess.

No, I'm not. I'm arguing a classic Marxist position (or at least I'm trying to).

Out of interest, do you believe that pay discrepancies are fair?

In what circumstances?

And you never did answer my question about how property owners should decide who is most deserving of purchasing something.

It was a meaningless question.

[Yerascrote]

To be honest, I do know that is a bit idealistic, I don't have any answers these days, but I do find a class approach quite useful in trying to understand where interests lie. I do however think that the current system is based on exploitation and greed and most people can't see any other alternative due to how capitalism operates and doesn't give any space in mass media etc for alternative points of view.

don't get me wrong, i'm as pissed off as you, i know there's some sort of faceless regime running this world to the ground and it scares me but as you've said, is there any answers, any reasonable answers, it's basic human nature (don't want to define nature this time) to have power, to manipulate power, even if we did have a perfect system there'll always be those who'll corrupt...capatilism is shit but so's life.

[Kermit]

Do you believe all workers should be paid the same, or should bosses be paid more than lackeys?

[Kermit]

it's basic human nature to have power, to manipulate power, even if we did have a perfect system there'll always be those who'll corrupt...capatilism is shit but so's life.

I'd love the ideal world where everyone gets paid a good wage, etc etc, but there will always be rich and poor. Why be a brain surgeon when you can get paid the same for being a bin man or data entry clerk?

Under any economic system there are bosses with more power and more wealth; the profits posted by some business and some bosses are disgraceful, but that doesn't mean that capitalism and profit are therefore disgraceful.

[Yerascrote]

I'd love the ideal world where everyone gets paid a good wage, etc etc, but there will always be rich and poor. Why be a brain surgeon when you can get paid the same for being a bin man or data entry clerk?

Under any economic system there are bosses with more power and more wealth; the profits posted by some business and some bosses are disgraceful, but that doesn't mean that capitalism and profit are therefore disgraceful.

i agree, it's not capatilisms fault capatilism is corrupt, it's not a person just an ideal, it's us who corrupt it, thats why i don't like labels and all, there's just good humans, bad humans, i consider myself a good human, i hope thats my redemption.

[Kermit]

I wouldn't say it was "corrupt" if you lok at the system as a whole rather than the obscene profits posted by a hanful of MNCs.

[Yerascrote]

I wouldn't say it was "corrupt" if you lok at the system as a whole rather than the obscene profits posted by a hanful of MNCs.

well it's not inherintly corrupt but it has corruptive elements that i just can't fathom and makes me angry.

[Kermit]

well it's not inherintly corrupt but it has corruptive elements that i just can't fathom and makes me angry.
Yup.

Though I think matadore makes a good point in the other thread: people have a choice about it. If a company is unethical, don't shop there: it's giving McDonald's something to think about after it posted it's first loss.

I'm far more concerned about governmental corruption, because we have no choice. We fund these bent c.unts or we go to jail.

[Yerascrote]

Yup.

Though I think matadore makes a good point in the other thread: people have a choice about it. If a company is unethical, don't shop there: it's giving McDonald's something to think about after it posted it's first loss.

I'm far more concerned about governmental corruption, because we have no choice. We fund these bent c.unts or we go to jail.

thats true but if you don't go to mc donalds then you're naturally going to go somewhere else, it's just passing the buck on really.

yes that annoys me the most, we are the people, we are who matter, it's their duty to respect us and respect our needs, i feel these days we have to go out of our way just to satisfy them, and who's them, a bunch of middle class pricks who suppossedly have the nations interests at heart :mad:

[Kermit]

thats true but if you don't go to mc donalds then you're naturally going to go somewhere else, it's just passing the buck on really.

I generally try to shop independently as much as I can. It gets hard with every town being a corporate copy of every other one, but it's possible. I had a wonderful lunch in an independent cafe in Sunderland's Winter Gardens today, very nice and cheap.

It is hard to do it though. If I don't bank with the Triads, sorry HSBC, I end up banking with HBOS or RBS. Mind, I work for the Northern Bank in a roundabout way, so I need to be careful;)

yes that annoys me the most, we are the people, we are who matter, it's their duty to respect us and respect our needs, i feel these days we have to go out of our way just to satisfy them, and who's them, a bunch of middle class pricks who suppossedly have the nations interests at heart :mad:

They don't though, and we can't make them.

A protest of over one million people and they go to war; a protest of several hundred thousand people and they still ban hunting. When there's an "execute them all" option on the ballot box only then will we have a say.

[Blagsta]

Do you believe all workers should be paid the same, or should bosses be paid more than lackeys?

You've totally misunderstood where I'm coming from. This is a good primer
http://www.ssc.wisc.edu/~wright/Foundations.pdf

[Blagsta]

I'd love the ideal world where everyone gets paid a good wage, etc etc, but there will always be rich and poor. Why be a brain surgeon when you can get paid the same for being a bin man or data entry clerk?

That's not what I'm arguing. And people do do things not just for the money. I could earn shit loads working in IT, but I don't I earn a lot less working for a drugs service. Why? Because job satisfaction and feeling that I'm doing something worthwhile is more important to me than money.

Under any economic system there are bosses with more power and more wealth;

No, you're just describing capitalism.

the profits posted by some business and some bosses are disgraceful, but that doesn't mean that capitalism and profit are therefore disgraceful.

Where do you think profit comes from?

[Kermit]

I probably have.

I'll read that tomorrow if it's OK, I've had a glass of wine asnd the long words are making my eyes ache:)

[Mad Mac]

Too much to drink?
no! you just piss me off!

[Mad Mac]

Clever boy.

Go and play with the traffic.
tabloid reader then?....doesnt make you clever..just missinformed!

[Blagsta]

I probably have.

I'll read that tomorrow if it's OK, I've had a glass of wine asnd the long words are making my eyes ache:)

This is a good explanation as well (but a horrible design!)
http://www.mtholyoke.edu/courses/sgabriel/surplus_labor_defined.htm

[Man Of Kent]

Why does a company need a profit?

For investment, either in expansion or new technology. Or diversity. Or training. Or providing creches...

That funding has to come from somewhere and you cannot achieve it without the unit cost of manufacture being less than the unit cost for their sale.

[Blagsta]

For investment, either in expansion or new technology. Or diversity. Or training. Or providing creches...

No, that's overheads.

That funding has to come from somewhere and you cannot achieve it without the unit cost of manufacture being less than the unit cost for their sale.


See above.

[Fiend_85]

What pays for overheads, if not profit?

[Blagsta]

They are not the same at all. Profit is what is left over when overheads are paid for.

[freethepeeps]

What pays for overheads, if not profit?

They're part of the costs of production - they're factored into the unit price.

[Man Of Kent]

No, that's overheads.

No, that's what it costs to make the individual units, that doesn't include additional trining to develop staff nor does it include the costs of expansion.

That needs profit...

[Blagsta]

No, that's overheads. Profit is what is left over.

[Man Of Kent]

No the overheads are what is costs to prodice the item you currently build.

If you want to diversify, or expand, or improve your staff generally, then you need additional capitol. For that you need profits.

What you seem to be suggesting is that a company will always expand because they will always cover their overheads by the price they charge...

[Blagsta]

No, that is accounted for in overheads. Profit is what is left over and goes into someones personal bank account.

[Man Of Kent]

No, that's dividend.

[Blagsta]

Its dividend if its paid to shareholders. Its profit by any other name. Money for