child vegans are 'unethical'

[girl with sharp teeth]

.

[Fiend_85]

Yes, if you're damaging your child's health by restricting their diet then you're failing to fufil your responsibility as a parent.

[Aladdin]

Yes. Not only unethical but also disgusting in my book. And I would add vegetarianism to the list.

Nutrition is paramount when growing up. A child should not be left with a deficient diet or be made to take lots of supplement pills. There are simply essential minerals and proteins in meat and fish that you're not going to find in similar quantities anywhere else.

Disgusting selfish brainwashing IMO.

[nicebutdim23]

i think if a child wishes to be a vegan when they are old enough to make a conscious decission thats fine. but ,particularly in the early years, parents should consider nutrition and development more important than their own beliefs. you cannot impose a vegan diet on a two year old and expect them to not be lacking in B12 and calcium etc.plus omega3 is very benficial to childrens social and cognitive development etc....its not the same giving them vitamin pills and arent they also derived from animals too?

[FireFly85]

I am a vegetarian but I would not impose my choices on my child, as I realise that it is important that they eat at least some meat, fish and dairy products to help them with their development. I'm not saying that I would make food with meat and fish in it every single day, but I would make an effort to ensure that my child had these things in their diet. I believe children should be given a choice about these things when they're old enough to make the decision, I don't think they should have something like that imposed upon them.

[budda]

Is it the veganism or is it just the poor diet choice?

Whenever a parent doesnt feed their kid the things it needs its bordering on (if not obviously) child abuse.

Whether that is just nuts and berries or fried crap it makes no odds really.

[SuzyCreamcheese]

Is it the veganism or is it just the poor diet choice?

Whenever a parent doesnt feed their kid the things it needs its bordering on (if not obviously) child abuse.

Whether that is just nuts and berries or fried crap it makes no odds really.
Youve hit the nail on the head.
It is unethical to feed children shit food constantly. The amount of people that feed their children processed fish fingers sausages, smiley face mashed potato shapes and alphabetti spaghetti every day.
If someone is feeding their child a diet that lacks major food groups then thats wrong. If they feed their child food that is predominantly fried or processed chemical filled crap then that is unethical.
people just dont seem to have the first clue about healthy eating these days. i find it worrying.
Vegetarianism isnt unhealthy in itself. It is unhealthy though when people substitute the meat part of their diet for high fat cheesy bakes etc though.

[nicebutdim23]

Youve hit the nail on the head.
It is unethical to feed children shit food constantly. The amount of people that feed their children processed fish fingers sausages, smiley face mashed potato shapes and alphabetti spaghetti every day.
If someone is feeding their child a diet that lacks major food groups then thats wrong. If they feed their child food that is predominantly fried or processed chemical filled crap then that is unethical.
people just dont seem to have the first clue about healthy eating these days. i find it worrying.
Vegetarianism isnt unhealthy in itself. It is unhealthy though when people substitute the meat part of their diet for high fat cheesy bakes etc though.
:yes: :yes: :yes:

it comes down to the fact that some parents arent concerned with what goes in the food they feed their kids

[Olive]

Is it the veganism or is it just the poor diet choice?

Whenever a parent doesnt feed their kid the things it needs its bordering on (if not obviously) child abuse.

Whether that is just nuts and berries or fried crap it makes no odds really.

i agree.

if a parent can give the child all the nutrients it needs with a vegan/veggie diet, then i see no problems.

but if they can't (and bear in mind it's a struggle to get most kids to eat their greens) then it's unethical.

[budda]

Good, everyone agrees with me.

Talking of feeding your kids crap, have you all seen that teddy bear luncheon meat?

Vile isnt anywhere near strong enough.

[nicebutdim23]

im curious....how do vegan children get their calcium?

[Smash]

im curious....how do vegan children get their calcium?

Soy/rice milk
tofu
beans/pulses
leafy veg etc.

if a parent can give the child all the nutrients it needs with a vegan/veggie diet, then i see no problems.

but if they can't (and bear in mind it's a struggle to get most kids to eat their greens) then it's unethical.

I agree.
However, I think the parents need to be willing to accept that when the children get older they may choose to no longer follow such a restrictive diet. And that's a choice they have every right to make.

Personally, I think feeding your children dairylea lunchables is uneithical. :yeees:

[nicebutdim23]

ooo, didnt know beans had calcium in them.

[SuzyCreamcheese]

Personally, I think feeding your children dairylea lunchables is uneithical. :yeees:
I agree if its anything more than occasional.

[Indrid Cold]

i agree.

if a parent can give the child all the nutrients it needs with a vegan/veggie diet, then i see no problems.

but if they can't (and bear in mind it's a struggle to get most kids to eat their greens) then it's unethical.
Pretty much what I'd have said.

I understand why people don't eat meat, but what I don't understand is this: Why not drink milk? The cow/goat's kids will still have plenty, and no cow or goat dies because of that. And I certainly hope vegans don't think the same way of human milk...

[SuzyCreamcheese]

Pretty much what I'd have said.

I understand why people don't eat meat, but what I don't understand is this: Why not drink milk? The cow/goat's kids will still have plenty, and no cow or goat dies because of that. And I certainly hope vegans don't think the same way of human milk...
Thats not actually true. The dairy industry is closely linked to the veal industry. The milking cows are artificially inseminated, the calves taken away when they are very young and long before they are weaned. They are usually then slaughtered for veal. The mother cow is then given extra hormones to make her produce an abnormally high amount of milk even without her calf there to suckle.
The dairy industry isnt that nice if you ask me, and its one of the reasons I buy organic milk because they have a higher level of animal welfare and no extra hormones in the milk. Plus its been proven that organic milk has much higher levels of essential omega 3 fatty acids which are proven to aid brain power :thumb:
it only costs about 20p extra too for a 4 pint carton.

[Indrid Cold]

Ah okay, didn't know that. Thanks
But, if that's the reason they don't, then it's only because of the way the milk is gotten, not something against milk itself, like it's with meat...

[Yerascrote]

if a parent can give the child all the nutrients it needs with a vegan/veggie diet, then i see no problems.


should the child not give consent first, i mean, i find it very scary that a parent will tell a child they can't eat meat, regardless if it's a healthy vegan diet or not.

[Olive]

should the child not give consent first, i mean, i find it very scary that a parent will tell a child they can't eat meat, regardless if it's a healthy vegan diet or not.

most kids eat whatever their parents give them. if you let them choose their own diet, i imagine it would pretty much go: chocolate, chocolate cake, ice cream.

as long as the diet the parent enforces is healthy, it's ok.

older kids should be able to choose their diet more, and if they decide they don't want to be veggies, their parents should respect that.

[Yerascrote]

most kids eat whatever their parents give them. if you let them choose their own diet, i imagine it would pretty much go: chocolate, chocolate cake, ice cream.

as long as the diet the parent enforces is healthy, it's ok.

older kids should be able to choose their diet more, and if they decide they don't want to be veggies, their parents should respect that.

aye but if a parent feeds their child a vegan diet, it obviously implies that they are vegetarians themselves and probably wouldn't let or certainly wouldn't want their children to eat meat in the future, therefore having an influence over their childs choices, i know it's fashionable to diss eating meat as cruel and whatnot but it is an essential part of a healthy diet, our ancestors ate it, why shouldn't we.

[Smash]

it is an essential part of a healthy diet.

No, not really. It is perfectly possible to have a healthy vegan/vegetarian diet. It certainly takes more effort, but if the parents are vegans in the first place, it stands to reason that they are vigilant about what they eat anyway.
The danger is when they are fanatical about it or don't ensure their childs developmental needs are met - they should be thriving as opposed to surviving.

And our ancestors did an awful lot of things. Doesn't mean you can't be healthy without following suit.

A vegan diet doesn't mean it's not healthy, just ls a meat-eating diet doesn't ensure health.

[Yerascrote]

The danger is when they are fanatical about it or don't ensure their childs developmental needs are met - they should be thriving as opposed to surviving.


so if you are a vegetarian, would you cook meat to give to your child or not?

[Namaste]

Veganism can be seen as unethical anyway.

[SuzyCreamcheese]

if I was a vegetarian, I would not cook meat for my child. I am pretty clued up about healthy eating and know full well how to have a healthy vegetarian diet.
Ive got a feeling my son will choose vegetarianism when hes older anyway as he doesnt seem over-keen on meat apart from chorizo. He does eat it though as he eats what we eat. He seems to like fish though.
I would not let him become vegan though as I would find that really hard to cover his/our dietary needs.

[SuzyCreamcheese]

if you let them choose their own diet, i imagine it would pretty much go: chocolate, chocolate cake, ice cream.

.
Youd be surprised actually. I used to run a parent and toddler group and as well as having a few biscuits for coffee break, I would put out plates of apple, bananas, raisins, breadsticks and cheese for the children.
90% of the children wanted the healthy stuff. It was the parents who went for the biscuits.
I think parents often project their own unhealthy eating habits onto their children, just assuming thats what their kids want, thinking if they dont give them sweets and biscuits constantly then they are depriving them.
You also get parents who think if something is marketed at kids, then thats what they have to give them.

[Smash]

so if you are a vegetarian, would you cook meat to give to your child or not?

Er, no. If I, nor anyone else in my house at meat I'm hardly likely to go out and buy a topside of beef just for mini Smash now, am I?
But there are plenty of veggies/vegans who manage to co-exist quite happily with meat-eaters without a daily blow-by-blow account of the activities taking place within a slaughterhouse over the dinner table every night, so I should imagine that it very much depends on the person.

You can thrive on any diet as long as it's well balanced , varied and you're getting sufficient energy and nutrients. Be that from tofu or T-bone steak.

[Isenheart8]

You know whats really sick about vegans and vegetarians, they direct all the pain and suffering to those poor plants, i mean what did the plants ever do to deserve this punishment?
Veganising your children isnt just "unethical" its cruelty, we the human race are carnivorous children need a certain amount of meet in thier diet for essential proteins they need,
Vegans need to wake up and smell the bacon, stop putting stupid ideas into childrens heads, they need meat, im not going to deprive my children (when i have some)!

[Isenheart8]

Rainbow bright,
i agree there is no excuse for parents to buy there children crap, unless they are too poor OR too stupid, whic in the case of being too stupid is just unluckt for the children.
But if children want sweets you can give them stuff like certain berries, dried cranberrys mixed with macodalia nuts are so healthy with natural sugars and they taste *10 better than sweets anyday,
i belive they should get all this crap food out of school kids should be given healthy stuff to eat!

[SuzyCreamcheese]

You know whats really sick about vegans and vegetarians, they direct all the pain and suffering to those poor plants, i mean what did the plants ever do to deserve this punishment?
!
well when you show me a plant with a central nervous system and a brain, then maybe come back to me with that stupid/overused argument.

[Isenheart8]

Plants Have a central nervous system, maybe they dont have a brain but they are still alive, and the vegans are killing them :nervous:

[wheresmyplacebo]

so what if youre killing animals and plants, every species does it to itself and others....

we're born omnivores thats why i take full advantage of it :D

i enjoy vegetables i enjoy meat too, and they go well together, meat protein for example is more easily digested than vegetable protein, whilst vegetables have vitamins meat doesnt have

its all complimentary, why a parent would devoid their child of it, especially if they arent making up for the things required to grow at young ages like protein and calcium and iron

[Isenheart8]

good on ya, I wont discriminate against plants or mamals, im hungry so ill eat both.

[SuzyCreamcheese]

Plants Have a central nervous system,
no they dont.

[Olive]

90% of the children wanted the healthy stuff.

i think our wee ones account for the 10% ;)

actually, my nephew eats pretty well, but he does go through weird stages. he had a stage where he'd only eat orange foods. luckily this included stuff like carrots, sweet potato and oranges, but it was a total nightmare getting any proteins into him.

left to his own devices, i think he'd live entirely on quavers, ham and bananas.

[Isenheart8]

Rainbow bright,
Plants and mamals are both living things, what give you the right to decide which is superior, are you god?

[SuzyCreamcheese]

i didnt say one was superior, I said that plants dont have a central nervous system or a brain, therefore have no capacity to feel pain/fear, so its not `cruel` as such to kill them. Its also a lot more environmentally sustainable.
I personally am not a vegetarian by the way, if that makes any difference.

[Namaste]

i didnt say one was superior, I said that plants dont have a central nervous system or a brain, therefore have no capacity to feel pain/fear, so its not `cruel` as such to kill them. Its also a lot more environmentally sustainable.
I personally am not a vegetarian by the way, if that makes any difference.
Depends... some people do believe plants have feelings. Spirits and whatnot.

Imagine if more and more people started becoming vegan, how much of the environment would be destroyed by creating more crops to deal with consumer demands, then how much pollution would come from pesticides and transport... Then how many farms would go out of business.

[SuzyCreamcheese]

if the world became vegetarian (hypothetically) it would be far more sustainable than it is now.

'In environmental terms, meat-eating is a costly habit. The world's livestock herds consume increasing quantities of land, energy, and water. A quarter of the earth's landmass is used as pasture for livestock; more than half the farmland in the USA is devoted to beef production. While it takes, on average, 25 gallons (113 litres) of water to produce a pound of wheat in modern Western farming systems, it requires an astonishing 2,500 gallons (11,250 litres) of water to produce a pound of meat. Throughout the world, livestock herds accelerate erosion and desertification; 85% of topsoil loss in the USA is attributed to livestock ranching, for example.' Joni Seager, The State of The Environment Atlas, Penguin Books, 1995.

'In cycling our grain through livestock, we waste 90% of its protein and 96% of its calories. An acre of cereal can produce five times more protein than an acre devoted to meat production; and legumes (beans, lentils, peas) can produce ten times as much. Thus the greater the human consumption of animal products, the fewer people can be fed.' Joni Seager, The State of the Environment Atlas, Penguin Books, 1995.

[SuzyCreamcheese]

Depends... some people do believe plants have feelings. Spirits and whatnot.

.
yeah maybe but im talking about scientific stuff, not what a few loonies here and there have made up as theyve gone along.

[rachie004]

Everything I think/want to say has already been said by Rainbow Brite

[Indrid Cold]

yeah maybe but im talking about scientific stuff, not what a few loonies here and there have made up as theyve gone along.
I didn't try to find an article on the internet, but I have heard of studies that show plants react to things from the enviroment. There was even research done for using plants in a room to identify people who'd been there recently.

[Halloween]

Isenheart8 "Rainbow bright,
Plants and mamals are both living things, what give you the right to decide which is superior, are you god?"

Too many Fern Gully fans out there not knowing what they're talking about. :mad:

[Halloween]

Plants Have a central nervous system, maybe they dont have a brain but they are still alive, and the vegans are killing them :nervous:

no they don't!
http://www.broadoak.n-somerset.sch.uk/subjects/science/biology/AQAmod2syll.doc
Bloody GCSE :mad:

Plants have a transport system to transport WATER and NUTRIENTS only...
They have specialised cells and stomata, collenchyma etc. Not neurons and synapses to feel "pain"!

[Isenheart8]

Please your upsetting me i dont want to talk about hurting any more plants ok.

[Fiend_85]

I like to hurt plants, just for fun.

[Skive]

If none of us ate meat there'd be no animals left.
I don't want to have to visit a zoo just to see a cow.

[freethepeeps]

If none of us ate meat there'd be no animals left.
I don't want to have to visit a zoo just to see a cow.

We don't eat horses .......

[dr_carter]

Considering that health professionals have warned that the B-vitamin status of any vegetarian or vegan should be checked regularly, I wonder whether or not it's reasonable to bring up children where vitamin supplements are regarded as essential to the diet. In addition, studies have shown that children born to vegan parents and weaned solely on the mothers milk are more at risk from anaemia. One study even demonstrated that a vegan-mothers breast fed infant suffered from dystrophy, weakness, muscular atrophy, loss of tendon reflexes, psychomotor regression and haemotological abnormalities resulting from low concentrations of B-12 in both the infant and the mother. Is this an effective manner in which to start the development of an infant?

I would certainly not advise the use of supplements to anyone, because vitamin and mineral supplements interfere with the absorption of other supplements, and some vitamins can build up in tissue and cause illness when taken in high amounts as part of a supplement.

However, those individuals who provide for their children with high-fat, low nutrient diet are sinning in a much more disgusting manner, fuelling the development of teenage slobs and encouraging unhealthy individuals to develop.

In conclusion, I believe it's wrong to inflict any variation in diet on a child without proper monitoring to ensure the child is getting ALL the nutrients they require. This is vitally important as we're dealing with a growing organism. However, once the child has reached maturity and ceased to develop - I can't exactly stop him or her doing as he or she pleases.

[budda]

In conclusion, I believe it's wrong to inflict any variation in diet on a child without proper monitoring to ensure the child is getting ALL the nutrients they require. This is vitally important as we're dealing with a growing organism. However, once the child has reached maturity and ceased to develop - I can't exactly stop him or her doing as he or she pleases.

Which is exactly what I said two pages ago.

[SuzyCreamcheese]

[QUOTE=dr_carter]Considering that health professionals have warned that the B-vitamin status of any vegetarian or vegan should be checked regularly, I wonder whether or not it's reasonable to bring up children where vitamin supplements are regarded as essential to the diet. In addition, studies have shown that children born to vegan parents and weaned solely on the mothers milk are more at risk from anaemia. One study even demonstrated that a vegan-mothers breast fed infant suffered from dystrophy, weakness, muscular atrophy, loss of tendon reflexes, psychomotor regression and haemotological abnormalities resulting from low concentrations of B-12 in both the infant and the mother. Is this an effective manner in which to start the development of an infant?

Can you point to your sources here please. Im wondering who is financing the studies trying to discredit breastfeeding which is widely known to be the BEST possible nutrition for a baby even if the mothers diet is lacking.
Dont start me off on this one.

[dr_carter]

Can you point to your sources here please. Im wondering who is financing the studies trying to discredit breastfeeding which is widely known to be the BEST possible nutrition for a baby even if the mothers diet is lacking.
Dont start me off on this one.

I strongly suggest you throughly research any vegan-related material on the internet. I have found several sources, all written for the benefit of vegans, stating the dangers of breastfeeding without providing mother or baby with B-12 supplements when the mother is a vegan.

I didn't for a second suggest that breastfeeding is by any means being discredited, my point was that vegans need to be responsible and consider the needs of the baby above their own ideas and beliefs.

[budda]

B vitamins are gained from whole grains and the like though, do you actually get them from animal products?

[wheresmyplacebo]

why any mother would inflict her political views upon her baby outstands me, to get the amount of protein and bone nutrients from vegetbles alone requires A LOT of protein rich non-meat sources, of which many arent too good in large quantities, simply put a child growing up needs as much variety as possible

[dr_carter]

B vitamins are gained from whole grains and the like though, do you actually get them from animal products?

"(Vitamin B12) is exclusively synthesised by bacteria and is found primarily in meat, eggs and dairy products. There has been considerable research into proposed plant sources of vitamin B12. Fermented soya products, seaweeds, and algae such as spirulina have all been suggested as containing significant B12. However, the present consensus is that any B12 present in plant foods is likely to be unavailable to humans and so these foods should not be relied upon as safe sources."

Source - www.vegsoc.org/info/b12.html

[budda]

why any mother would inflict her political views upon her baby outstands me, to get the amount of protein and bone nutrients from vegetbles alone requires A LOT of protein rich non-meat sources, of which many arent too good in large quantities, simply put a child growing up needs as much variety as possible

Like has been said before, it can be done and the kid could be really healthy, but by restricting your diet down to vegan you are making it harder. Not impossible just harder.

[Skive]

We don't eat horses .......

No we ride them, what is your point?

[freethepeeps]

No we ride them, what is your point?

That not eating animals doen't mean they disappear.

We erm, don't eat cats and dogs either.....


:wave:

[SuzyCreamcheese]

I would suggest that any breastfeeding mother makes sure she has a good diet and that includes supplementing if necessary whether vegan or not because the breastmilk is likely to still have all the nutrients but if the mothers diet is lacking, it will be at her expense and her milk will probably dry up if shes not eating well enough.I think supplementing for vegans and non vegans is a good idea because the carnivourous diet for most people is by no means healthy. When the amount of people whos meat intake consists of sausages and burgers is as high as it is, I would say that a vegetarian diet is far healthier. Not a vegan diet for small children as they need a lot of fats in their diet under the age of 5. Any vegan considering bringing their child up on that diet should definitely supplement because it would be a lot of effort to make sure vitamin levels are met. You can easily get vegetarian B12 supplements from any health food shop.
What I am finding hard to get my head round is the demonising of vegans as an irresponsible group. People who are strict vegans are in a very small minority, its hardly a big risk compared to the higher risk for children brought up on a modern day processed fast food diet.

[Skive]

That not eating animals doen't mean they disappear.

We erm, don't eat cats and dogs either.....

Sorry, I didn't realise you were so simple. :o I should have expalained myself better.

I was talking about agricultural animals - Pigs, Cattle, Sheep etc.
What's going to happen to them if we don't eat them? Pets? You going to learn to ride a cow?

[budda]

Sorry, I didn't realise you were so simple. :o I should have expalained myself better.

I was talking about agricultural animals - Pigs, Cattle, Sheep etc.
What's going to happen to them if we don't eat them? Pets? You going to learn to ride a cow?

I can see that, the Derby run on pigs, it would be more interesting.

[freethepeeps]

Sorry, I didn't realise you were so simple. :o I should have expalained myself better.

I was talking about agricultural animals - Pigs, Cattle, Sheep etc.
What's going to happen to them if we don't eat them? Pets? You going to learn to ride a cow?

Yeah, please excuse my feeblemindedness -

I wonder where milk and wool come from.....

:confused:

[budda]

Yeah, please excuse my feeblemindedness - I wonder where milk and wool come from.....

You dont get meat from milking cows.

[freethepeeps]

You dont get meat from milking cows.

Cheers - I guess their calves are bottle fed - lucky old Nestle....

[Skive]

I wonder where milk and wool come from.....

Both those industries are tied in with the meat market. If everybody stopped eating meat you would find that these industries really suffered.

[SuzyCreamcheese]

I dont see the problem. if there wasnt the market for meat, of course not as many cows and pigs would be bred. So what?

[budda]

Cheers - I guess their calves are bottle fed - lucky old Nestle....

You know, you would be the cleverest troll we've ever had, if you were clever and your posts anything more than just mildly irritating crap.

[freethepeeps]

You know, you would be the cleverest troll we've ever had, if you were clever and your posts anything more than just mildly irritating crap.

Yes, yes, I know you think I'm a troll. To be brutally honest, you're not the sharpest knife in the draw.

It was skive who suggested that if we stopped eating meat all the sweet little moos moos and baa baas would dispapear.

I thought it was bollocks then, and I think its bollocks now.


:heart:

[Skive]

I dont see the problem. if there wasnt the market for meat, of course not as many cows and pigs would be bred. So what?

So you'd be taking you nipper to the zoo to see a cow or a pig.

There are intensive farmign methods which need to be sorted but otherwise the animals I see don't have a bad life.

[Skive]

I thought it was bollocks then, and I think its bollocks now.

So what about the little pigs then?

And we do sell ponies for meat BTW.

[freethepeeps]

So what about the little pigs then?

And we do sell ponies for meat BTW.

Oh, people would still keep pigs, cows and sheep.

It just isn't as simple as you made it out to be.

Intensive meat farming is horrible - and mostly hidden from the toddlers anyway.....

[Skive]

Oh, people would still keep pigs

Why?

[freethepeeps]

Why?

Because they like pigs. And for leather.

The battery farms would all disappear though, which would be nice.

[Guest_]

You going to learn to ride a cow?

Cow hunting!

[Skive]

Because they like pigs.

:lol:

[freethepeeps]

:lol:

You're just being silly (http://www.petpig.com/) now ;)

According to the Rare Breeds Survival Trust (http://www.rare-breeds.com/html/rare_breeds/uses_of_rare_breeds.html) pigs can play a specialist role in forestry work:

Their rooting habit can clear the floor of mature woodland of scrub plants and saplings such as bramble, bracken, roan etc. in much the same way as their forebears the wild boar once did.



ABC (http://abcnews.go.com/Technology/story?id=98720&page=1) reports that scientists have used pigs to test the toxicity of sites.

Anyway, in all seriousness, how often exactly do you see pigs out and about?

[Senor Miguel]

the vegetarian thing is a myth, you can eat very healthily without ever touching meat, the fact is most vegetarians don't have a clue what to eat (beans, nuts, soya products all have plenty protein.....)

i would be more worried about all the other crap parents are feeding their kids, everything in the shops these days is refined and almost useless to your body.......

[rachie004]

Considering that health professionals have warned that the B-vitamin status of any vegetarian or vegan should be checked regularly

oh, just shut up, shut up, shut up :mad:

I have a B12 deficiancy, and I'm a vegetarian.. and QUALIFIED medical professionals have said that it has nothing to do with me being a vegetarian

[Skive]

Anyway, in all seriousness, how often exactly do you see pigs out and about?

All the time.

[freethepeeps]

All the time.

Well, thats nice. I have to say that I've very rarely seen them in fields, though I see shitloads of cows and sheep. Perhaps they're more prevalent where you live?

[SuzyCreamcheese]

So you'd be taking you nipper to the zoo to see a cow or a pig.

There are intensive farmign methods which need to be sorted but otherwise the animals I see don't have a bad life.
If he wanted to see a cow or pig in the zoo, yes of course. :confused:
I dont generally take him to farms to see cows and pigs, I dont see what the neccesity is of children seeing every type of animal in real life. Zoos are entertainment, not necessary or even desirable really.

[Isenheart8]

Does anyone know about our primative ansestor the neadderthol? 60k years ago who would be wondering the frozen plains, standing only 5.6 inches tall, but this guy had a incredably powerfull build, his short muscular stocky build enabled him to survive extreme cold, But the reason he was so muscular was because of his diet of pure meat! He was a hunter, what i am saying is if we evolve eating plants we will get skinnier and skinnier maybe our brians will start to shrink, we have evolved to eat meat!

[freethepeeps]

If he wanted to see a cow or pig in the zoo, yes of course. :confused:
I dont generally take him to farms to see cows and pigs, I dont see what the neccesity is of children seeing every type of animal in real life. Zoos are entertainment, not necessary or even desirable really.

How can there be so much brilliance in one poster?

rainbow brite - a voice od sense in a mad world


:)

[SuzyCreamcheese]

You know, you would be the cleverest troll we've ever had, if you were clever and your posts anything more than just mildly irritating crap.
I think i must be missing something here. Why do people think FTP is a troll.
I agree with him a lot, yet noone calls me a troll.

[SuzyCreamcheese]

LOL posted at the same time.

[freethepeeps]

I think i must be missing something here. Why do people think FTP is a troll.
I agree with him a lot, yet noone calls me a troll.

He doesn't like my politics..... or my snappy one liners


:impissed:

[Toadborg]

I think everyone who eats meat should have some kind of coming of age ritual where they have to personally slaughter and butcher a pig or cow etc, so that they have some idea of what it is they are involved in, that the world is not such a nice sanitised place as it seems in the supermarket........

I'd be up for it........

[Isenheart8]

Well i blew a ducks head off, with a shotgun before, does that count?

[Toadborg]

No, you should have to do it by hand.........

[Skive]

I dont generally take him to farms to see cows and pigs, I dont see what the neccesity is of children seeing every type of animal in real life.

I just think it's sad if they only ever get to see a sheep or pig in a picture book.

[Isenheart8]

Toadbord i think your right, this would be a good part of man hood.
But killing a cow with your bare hands might take a bit of effort.

[SuzyCreamcheese]

I just think it's sad if they only ever get to see a sheep or pig in a picture book.
I see what you are saying, but to me it makes not much difference if I had to take my son on a special trip to a farm to see a cow, or take a special trip to a zoo to see one. They dont roam free round here.
most zoos already have a section for domestc animals. Its my sons favourite bit stroking the sheep.

[SuzyCreamcheese]

Toadbord i think your right, this would be a good part of man hood.
But killing a cow with your bare hands might take a bit of effort.
That might show you what are the natural animals for humans to eat then. maybe we should be sticking to things like chickens, rabbits, fish, that we might have half a chance with if it wasnt just done for us.
more research to show how health benefits of meat eating is a kind of swings and roundabouts thing http://my.webmd.com/content/article/99/105158.htm
http://www.medicalnewstoday.com/medicalnews.php?newsid=18905

[freethepeeps]

On the whole, junior peeps got her early exposure to farm animals at the City farm near us. If by some miracle the whole society stopped eating meat, then I'm sure there'd still be farms that kept animals for showing to the kiddies. :)

[Skive]

That might show you what are the natural animals for humans to eat then. maybe we should be sticking to things like chickens, rabbits, fish, that we might have half a chance with if it wasnt just done for us.

So we shpuld only eat what we can kill with our bare hands? I'm sure if you gave me long enough I could kick a cow to death.
I'd like to see you catch a ribbit or a fish with your bear hands.

And I don't see keeping animals in zoo's any better than keeping them on a farm.

[SuzyCreamcheese]

So we shpuld only eat what we can kill with our bare hands? I'm sure if you gave me long enough I could kick a cow to death.
I'd like to see you catch a ribbit or a fish with your bear hands.

And I don't see keeping animals in zoo's any better than keeping them on a farm.
If I had to kill my own animals I probably wouldnt do it unless absolutely necessary. I might catch fish, I could probably cope with that but no, youre right, I probably wouldnt be able to catch or kill many animals at all.
I agree with you that zoos are as bad as farms unless you mean intensive farms, which id say were far worse. The only thing that is better about zoos is they dont have as many animals in captivity in them as they do on farms.

[Yerascrote]

Er, no. If I, nor anyone else in my house at meat I'm hardly likely to go out and buy a topside of beef just for mini Smash now, am I?
But there are plenty of veggies/vegans who manage to co-exist quite happily with meat-eaters without a daily blow-by-blow account of the activities taking place within a slaughterhouse over the dinner table every night, so I should imagine that it very much depends on the person.

You can thrive on any diet as long as it's well balanced , varied and you're getting sufficient energy and nutrients. Be that from tofu or T-bone steak.

i can see where you're coming form but i find something really snobbish about that, i mean there are various psychological implications in telling a child what they should and should not eat, would that make a child less assertive as a person in the future?

[SuzyCreamcheese]

i can see where you're coming form but i find something really snobbish about that, i mean there are various psychological implications in telling a child what they should and should not eat, would that make a child less assertive as a person in the future?
I really dont see whats snobbish about a vegetarian giving their child the same as the rest of the family is eating. Do you think everyone in a family honestly gets different dinners every night? If the thought of eating an animal really makes someone feel bad, why on earth would they want that for their child? We make choices for our children all the time. Its not snobbish. Its the job of the parent to make choices for a child when its too young to make those choices for itself. It can then make its own choices when its older or when its out of the house.

[dr_carter]

oh, just shut up, shut up, shut up :mad:

I have a B12 deficiancy, and I'm a vegetarian.. and QUALIFIED medical professionals have said that it has nothing to do with me being a vegetarian

well, the medical professionals you saw, were, erm..... wrong. I'm right.

[Yerascrote]

I really dont see whats snobbish about a vegetarian giving their child the same as the rest of the family is eating. Do you think everyone in a family honestly gets different dinners every night? If the thought of eating an animal really makes someone feel bad, why on earth would they want that for their child? We make choices for our children all the time. Its not snobbish. Its the job of the parent to make choices for a child when its too young to make those choices for itself. It can then make its own choices when its older or when its out of the house.

but does that not give out a signal to the child to do what people tell them to do and wait till another time to make your own choices, we must remeber that we are most impresshionable in our youth, i'm not sure though, i'm a confused druggy, i think things that are too fucked up but i feel there's always an undercurrent of opinions that are embedded in our minds, subconsciously stuck forever, being released at the silliest of times and attitudes are also shaped by even the slightest things and morals moulded by childhood memories, but in reality it's just my fucked up head. :crazyeyes

[Kermit]

well, the medical professionals you saw, were, erm..... wrong. I'm right.
You're back, and the gap has made you more of a braindead cunt than you were before.

Excellent!

Oh, and FTP is a troll. "snappy one liners"? I've seen more bite from a goldfish.

[dr_carter]

You're back, and the gap has made you more of a braindead cunt than you were before.


erm, all of the evidence is there, it's quoted all over the place, including SPECIFIC MEDICAL ADVICE to VEGANS AND VEGETARIANS that B12 deficiency is linked to lack of meat in the diet. don't call me braindead, it's quite easy to find, just do a google and you'll find bucketloads of sources telling you exactly the same.

[Olive]

erm, all of the evidence is there, it's quoted all over the place, including SPECIFIC MEDICAL ADVICE to VEGANS AND VEGETARIANS that B12 deficiency is linked to lack of meat in the diet. don't call me braindead, it's quite easy to find, just do a google and you'll find bucketloads of sources telling you exactly the same.

ah google, that accurate medical source.

[Kermit]

I can find google sources that tell me that Diana was murdered by Interflora. POint?

Why are you back, and how have you managed to get dumber in your absence?

[dr_carter]

I can find google sources that tell me that Diana was murdered by Interflora. POint?

Why are you back, and how have you managed to get dumber in your absence?

I am back to see you, and try and remember a time when you actually agreed with something I said.

You're not really paying attention to anything i'm saying are you?

[wheresmyplacebo]

Like has been said before, it can be done and the kid could be really healthy, but by restricting your diet down to vegan you are making it harder. Not impossible just harder.


true but why subject your child to something which is effectively a restricted diet and unnnatural since we are omnivores and are suited for digesting different nutrients from different foods, iron intake efficiency is higher from meat for example whilst other things in are best absorbed from vegetables etc

for an adult to choose sure, but for a child, just give them what is nutritious :)

as someone said earlier id be more worried about additives etc

imho people who preach meat is murder, should be fed to free range organic pigs :thumb: - i can understand how someone would question the methods, but not the overall result

[dr_carter]

As far as i'm concerned, it doesn't matter in the slightest what other people do. I'm aware of a risk of vitamin B12 deficiency, which is my only concern, particularly when considered in relation to the extremely serious problems that can manifest as a result of such a deficiency in infants. Therefore personally I would not recommend breastfeeding without supplements for any vegetarian or vegan mothers.

On a related tangent, personally i'd prefer to simply eat organic food as fresh as possible, and eat less processed food.

[Kermit]

You're not really paying attention to anything i'm saying are you?

Of course I am. Nutritionists agree that a lack of protein and B12 is bad for you, or the nutritionist who used to moderate on here agreed.

vegetarianism is bad for young children, in the same way it is bad for cats.

[Kentish]

Parents who force veganism on their children are no worse than mothers who refuse to breastfeed.

[Kermit]

Parents who force veganism on their children are no worse than mothers who refuse to breastfeed.

Except a child isn't losing vital vitamins by using formula milk.

Formula milk isn't ideal, but the nutrients get to the child anyway. In the case of vegans/veggies, they don't.

[Kentish]

Except a child isn't losing vital vitamins by using formula milk.

Formula milk isn't ideal, but the nutrients get to the child anyway. In the case of vegans/veggies, they don't.
Vegans/veggies don't necessarily miss out on vitamins and minerals, just like carnivores don't necessarily get all the vitamins and minerals they need.

Children do miss out on immunoglobulins by being bottle fed. It's the same idea.

[SuzyCreamcheese]

artificial formula milk is MUCH worse than a vegan diet. Talk about depriving a child and giving them a second rate food.

[Kentish]

artificial formula milk is MUCH worse than a vegan diet. Talk about depriving a child and giving them a second rate food.
Yeah, but some people don't have the choice, whereas veganism is a choice. And one made by proxy in the case of a child under the age of about 16 I'd say.

[SuzyCreamcheese]

Yeah, but some people don't have the choice, whereas veganism is a choice. And one made by proxy in the case of a child under the age of about 16 I'd say.
yeah something like 2% of people physically cant breastfeed, yet something like only 70% of women even try and only about 40% still breastfeed at 6 weeks.

I think veganism is unhealthy for a very young child. I knew this before this article. Im sure even the vegan society wouldnt recommend the diet for tinies without some very serious meal planning going on - if then.
Vegetarianism on the other hand is fine for children. You dont need meat as long as youre still getting certain vitamins from other sources, and a vegetarian diet is probably healthier than a lot of childrens diets that I have seen. obviously this varies from family to family, area to area, but there is a lot more to healthy eating than Meat = good.

[Kentish]

Agreed.

Breast is best. ;)

[Kermit]

I'm more of a leg man myself. Fnarr. Fnarr.

Not breastfeeding isn't good, but a lot of women don't like it, for whatever reason. Fair enough that, I think.

But vegetarianism has no impact on the mother's comfort, and is unjustifiable on any child too young to decide for itself.

[SuzyCreamcheese]

they dont like it????? sod the child then.
If we`re talking about giving a child the best start in life.
I dont see whats fair enough about it.

[rachie004]

erm, all of the evidence is there, it's quoted all over the place, including SPECIFIC MEDICAL ADVICE to VEGANS AND VEGETARIANS that B12 deficiency is linked to lack of meat in the diet. don't call me braindead, it's quite easy to find, just do a google and you'll find bucketloads of sources telling you exactly the same.

jeez who do I believe - QUALIFIED medical professionals..

or a jumped up medical student wannabe

[Kentish]

they dont like it?????
I tend towards this viewpoint, but you can't force a new mother who is having a hard time breastfeeding to do so. Midwives encourage it right from booking, but mothers soon find out that bottle feeding is easier and more convenient.

Similarly you can't force someone to feed their child meat, despite it probably being healthier than a vegan diet. Neither bottle feeding nor veganism are ideal for growing children, but what can you do?

[freethepeeps]

You're back, and the gap has made you more of a braindead cunt than you were before.

Excellent!

Oh, and FTP is a troll. "snappy one liners"? I've seen more bite from a goldfish.

There's a reason that you're an expert on brain dead kunts - its called projection.

I of course can only aspire to the quality of posts you churn out:


Thank you.

The Sun only decries paedos because it's run by one and the editor is married to one.

............

:crazyeyes

[budda]

He doesn't like my politics..... or my snappy one liners


:impissed:

Actually I have no understanding of your politics at all really.

And I think Kermit summed up your 'one liners' quite well.

[freethepeeps]

Actually I have no understanding of your politics at all really.

And I think Kermit summed up your 'one liners' quite well.

And I post here for debate on issues, to read other perspectives and to learn new stuff. Not to behave in a kermit/crackjesus sanctioned way, nopt for popularity.

I don't give a flying shit whether you like me or not .......

I do however object to your repeated description of me as a troll - which has happened since day 1 - and your creation of a hostile environment which seeks to ensure that the opinions expressed on these boards are in accrodance with your own weak value system.

Put me on ignore why don't you? I have yet to be intellectually challenged by anything that you have brought into a discussion here.

[budda]

To my knowledge thats the first time I have called you a troll actually, but thats not really the point.

[Kermit]

And I post here for debate on issues, to read other perspectives and to learn new stuff.

And there was us thinking you were just trying desperately hard to prove how "radical" you are.

I've yet to see you acknowledge any point raised by any poster unless it agrees with yours. Good debate, that isn't.

[freethepeeps]

And there was us thinking you were just trying desperately hard to prove how "radical" you are.

I've yet to see you acknowledge any point raised by any poster unless it agrees with yours. Good debate, that isn't.

I don't *need* to prove anything to anybody, I write what I think.

You might like to give an example of an unacknowledged valid point to prove your thesis......... even better, why don't you show me how to do it, and bolster your claims by showing where you've conceded a point.

[Kermit]

Find stuff yourself, I can't be arsed.

But MoK in particular is someone who you rarely acknowledge and is often right.

[freethepeeps]

Find stuff yourself, I can't be arsed.

But MoK in particular is someone who you rarely acknowledge and is often right.

Erm, why did I suspect that you'd come up with nothing.......

[Kermit]

Erm, why did I suspect that you'd come up with nothing.......
because you're an idiot?

I have slightly better things to do with my time than trawl through the search on this place finding stuff to "prove" something against a person who can only be described as "troll".

Goodnight.

[freethepeeps]

because you're an idiot?

I have slightly better things to do with my time than trawl through the search on this place finding stuff to "prove" something against a person who can only be described as "troll".

Goodnight.


:wave:

[DG]

Story. (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/health/4282257.stm)

Is it unethical to force your children into such a restrictive diet when there may be health drawbacks?


Considering the hormones, etc they pump animals with to make them bigger, leaner, etc ... maybe not!!

[wheresmyplacebo]

Considering the hormones, etc they pump animals with to make them bigger, leaner, etc ... maybe not!!


theres crap like that in sorts of food though

if you what they grow bananas with to stop disease youll be :O


gives the workers cancer and skin conditions in poor countries

[Fiend_85]

Arguing the condition of our meat is a different debate. But if you were concerned enough you could buy organic.

[Aladdin]

For the sake of balance, it surely is as unethical to feed your kid McDonalds burgers and other rubbish fast food regularly as keeping them on a strict vegan diet...

[Fiend_85]

Agreed.

[budda]

Its almost word for word what I said back on the first page of this, so I agree too.

[Aladdin]

So it is. Apologies. I thought someone might have said something similar along the way but it's difficult to keep track of everything (plus another, even longer thread on U75).

[budda]

So it is. Apologies. I thought someone might have said something similar along the way but it's difficult to keep track of everything (plus another, even longer thread on U75).

Not a problem, I'm not accusing you of taking my thoughts and posting them as your own. I know you can think intelligently from time to time.

[Aladdin]

Well you know they say imitation is the sincerest form of flattery... ;)

[SuzyCreamcheese]

For the sake of balance, it surely is as unethical to feed your kid McDonalds burgers and other rubbish fast food regularly as keeping them on a strict vegan diet...
I think the mcdonalds diet is far worse.

[Fiend_85]

I disagree, any diet that restrictive is irresponsible, but McD's is not worse than going to the other extreme.

[freethepeeps]

I disagree, any diet that restrictive is irresponsible, but McD's is not worse than going to the other extreme.

Erm, is it your claim that eating MacDonalds is AS healthy as having a vegan diet?

If it was true, it would make a good follow up to Super Size Me. (http://www.supersizeme.com/)

[Aladdin]

It all depends on the frequency the child is fed McShite burgers, I should imagine.

[budda]

Erm, is it your claim that eating MacDonalds is AS healthy as having a vegan diet?

If it was true, it would make a good follow up to Super Size Me. (http://www.supersizeme.com/)

Thats not actually what she said at all.

What she was saying was an overtly restrictive diet of either fatty foods or only certain vegan ones are equally dangerous to a child. Just for different reasons.

[SuzyCreamcheese]

I disagree, any diet that restrictive is irresponsible, but McD's is not worse than going to the other extreme.
Maybe ive got a different idea of a vegan diet than you have, but my idea of it is still reasonably varied, with soya and rice milks and yoghurts, breads, spreads (margarines), pulses, vegetables, grains, vegan cheeses, nuts, fruits etc.
It still looks to me that a lot of food groups are covered, and if it was done right then it wouldnt be that restrictive at all.
When they researched it werent they basing their idea of a vegan diet on the kind of diet they had in the third world - not the kind of diet a british person may have with full access to fresh vegetables and a local holland and barrett shop with vegan alternatives to nearly everything.
Im not a vegan or a vegetarian, but I have had times where ive put my son on dairy free for a while (when hes had colds or tummy bugs, I stop dairy foods) and I didnt find it that restrictive really. Im pretty hot on nutrition issues and feeding my family healthily.
feeding deep fried meat and potato products (fried in hydrogenated oil) with extra salt and colourings ie macdonalds has almost NO nutritional value in fact id say it was actively harmful if anything other than occasional.
Plus there is more to eating mcdonalds than just the food. You wouldnt want to support that too often.

[dr_carter]

jeez who do I believe - QUALIFIED medical professionals..

or a jumped up medical student wannabe

You believe the person with the evidence to suggest that they are right. I have the evidence - show me some from these so-called professionals

[SuzyCreamcheese]

Erm, is it your claim that eating MacDonalds is AS healthy as having a vegan diet?

If it was true, it would make a good follow up to Super Size Me. (http://www.supersizeme.com/)
:lol: Yeah definitely.
They should make a film called "Vega-Nize Me" and it should be about a man, that for a month has to eat all his food from holland and barrett and a locally grown organic box scheme for his vegetables. Everything needs to be dairy free and preferably minimally processed. Only drink fortified soya milks etc, even his water has to be from a health food shop.
After the month, do health checks on him and then we re-coil in horror at how his liver and kidneys are fuctioning properly, about how his arteries are free-flowing and unclogged, how his blood pressure is completely normal etc etc etc.

[SuzyCreamcheese]

You believe the person with the evidence to suggest that they are right. I have the evidence - show me some from these so-called professionals
She could always take a B12 supplement. Its not as if theyre hard to get hold of . Not exactly a major reason to start eating meat if its something she has a moral objection to.

[dr_carter]

She could always take a B12 supplement. Its not as if theyre hard to get hold of .

That's not the issue at hand. The issue is whether or not being vegetarian affects B12 levels in the human body. The answer is yes, because the most abundant source of B12 is meat.

[freethepeeps]

:lol: Yeah definitely.
They should make a film called "Vega-Nize Me".

Heh, Morgan Spurlocks partner was a vegan I believe ....... It might even work :)

[SuzyCreamcheese]

That's not the issue at hand. The issue is whether or not being vegetarian affects B12 levels in the human body. The answer is yes, because the most abundant source of B12 is meat.
i agree with you. vegetarians can get deficient in B12 if they dont supplement, and you can get vegetarian supplements so its not a reason to eat meat (in this country, with our facilities)

[Aladdin]

I simply see it wrong that small children should be pumped full of pills and man-made supplements because their parents are imposing their ethical views on the child's diet.

It might be possible to give a child a balanced vegan diet... but very difficult to achieve though, and requiring a lot of attention to detail. I doubt most parents in this positions are going to be able to provide all the necessary supplements in all the right amounts.

[Fiend_85]

Erm, is it your claim that eating MacDonalds is AS healthy as having a vegan diet?

If it was true, it would make a good follow up to Super Size Me. (http://www.supersizeme.com/)
No, I'm saying it's no more wrong to restrict a child's diet one way than the other either through neglect or your own personal morality.

[budda]

Is it the veganism or is it just the poor diet choice?

Whenever a parent doesnt feed their kid the things it needs its bordering on (if not obviously) child abuse.

Whether that is just nuts and berries or fried crap it makes no odds really.

Look! Theres the answer. I summed it up perfectly on page one.

[SuzyCreamcheese]

I think the problem here is the jumping between slating the vegan diet as a whole and discussing whether its suitable for tinies. Its not exactly new news that its not recommended for very young children, I had that information when I was pregnant nearly 5 years ago.
the debate has covered veganism for children, vegetarianism for children, the same diets for mankind as a whole, the pros and cons, whether its better than other diets, whether its hard to implement, whether vegans are stupid and/or abusive, manipulating children, the ethics of mcdonalds.
Its brilliant how threads develop on this site. I love it.

[Kermit]

Most "moral" diets manipulate children, it's amazing how many children become "veggie" when mummy points out where meat comes from.

I don't think a personal moral view should come in the way of how a child is fed and raised. And veganism and vegetarianism is a personal moral view interfering with how a child is fed and raised.

[SuzyCreamcheese]

Most "moral" diets manipulate children, it's amazing how many children become "veggie" when mummy points out where meat comes from.


What about if a child wanted to become vegetarian? should a vegetarian parent make a child who wants to be vegetarian, eat meat because some people think its healthier? Or what about meat eating parents - should they allow a child to become veggie if it wanted to?

[freethepeeps]

Junior peeps chose to become vegetarian, was veggie for about a year and then decided to eat meat again. It came from her, we discussed it, she made the choice, no pressure.

So, is it wrong to let a child decide what they want to put into their own mouths?

Theres a rumbling undercurrent here which I can't quite put my finger on at the moment.....

I'll tell you this, the average shopping basket in my supermarket is filled with the most amazing amounts of processed crap.

The vegans I know tend to think through the issues long and hard, and to make informed choices. A lot of the meat eating families in my supermarket don't seem to consider dietary needs for a moment....

[Kermit]

If a child makes an informed decision then that child is entitled to it. But we're not talking about that, are we, freethepeeps: forgetting how to read again, I see.

The report was on young children who, of course, are not exactly capable of an informed decision.

What concerns me is how many children suddenly turn veggie after PETA come to school.

[SuzyCreamcheese]

Kermit, please quit the ad hominem style of debate, I expect more from you

[Kermit]

My main point is that I don't think it is a parental place to impose certain political views on their children from a young age, and I think veganism falls into this category. When a vegan couple refused to feed their cat meat they were prosecuted for animal cruelty, I don't see why the same isn't applicable for children.

It is just about possible to allow a young growing child to live healthily in a vegetarian diet, providing that lots of pulses and dairy produce is in the diet. Veganism doesn't have this, and the research does show that the lack of meat and animal produce in the diet has an effect on small children.

When a child is about six or seven I reckon s/he is fully capable of deciding what they want to eat, but even then it becomes a problem. Whilst veggies kids of meat-eating parents wouldn't have as much trouble, I seriously doubt that a moralistic veggie mum or dad will allow the child to have meat; I know from personal experience that often they dont, and seven year olds can't exactly cook for themselves.

The argument about parents feeding children nothing but processed shit is irrelevant, as this is obviously a bad thing too. But good quality humanely-reared meat and other animal produce is an important part of a growing child's diet IMHO; if we didn't need meat, and if it was bad for us, then we wouldn't be able to digest it.

[SuzyCreamcheese]

I'll tell you this, the average shopping basket in my supermarket is filled with the most amazing amounts of processed crap.

The vegans I know tend to think through the issues long and hard, and to make informed choices. A lot of the meat eating families in my supermarket don't seem to consider dietary needs for a moment....
see this is EXACTLY what im saying. To be a vegan is an effort, it requires thought and planning. That is a whole different thing to the average consumer shopping basket in this country, and I just CANT accept that the average persons in this country is healthier than the average vegan who carefully considers every single thing they buy or eat.
I dont think veganism is healthy for a very small child as I keep saying, but I DO think its still preferable to most of the shit that I see some of my friends giving their children.

What concerns me is how many children suddenly turn veggie after PETA come to school.
Well that IS an informed choice, and if they cant handle the reality of where their meat comes from, then maybe they shouldnt be eating it.

[Kermit]

Well that IS an informed choice, and if they cant handle the reality of where their meat comes from, then maybe they shouldnt be eating it.

But it's not, in the same way that forming an opinion after watching a BNP video and nothing else is not an informed opinion.

PETA, oddly enough, don't ever show the organic and humane farms; they show the factories in Poland and in Denmark. How strange.

Now PETA are entitled to their opinions, and they are entitled to show them, but not to children in schools without a balanced counterpoint. But my hatred of PETA is largely irrelevant to this debate, because PETA are just typical radicals in that they are complete morons.

[SuzyCreamcheese]

I seriously doubt that a moralistic veggie mum or dad will allow the child to have meat; I know from personal experience that often they dont, and seven year olds can't exactly cook for themselves.


My mum turned veggie when I was about 8. She didnt cook meat for me, but I was welcome to eat it at other peoples houses or at school, which I did. I made the choice to go vegetarian when I was about 12 and was a vegetarian for ten years. My choice to eat meat when I did, and my choice to go veggie when I did. I would never have expected my mum to cook meat for me, and I never cooked meat for my partner after I left home. The thought repulsed me. I wont cook anything I dont like myself. If they want something I dont like they can get their own.
if we didn't need meat, and if it was bad for us, then we wouldn't be able to digest it.
I refer you back to my earlier link about meat eating greatly increasing the risk of colon cancer.

[Kermit]

I wont cook anything I dont like myself.

Bang goes freethepeeps talk of "letting children decide what to put in their mouths" then...

I refer you back to my earlier link about meat eating greatly increasing the risk of colon cancer.

Yep.

Doesn't imply that it's the meat and not the shit that intensive farming does, though.

[SuzyCreamcheese]

Bang goes freethepeeps talk of "letting children decide what to put in their mouths" then...




He can eat what he likes, but theres no way im cooking mushrooms for example. The thought makes me gag.
If my husband or son want to eat something I dont like I wont stop them, but they have to do their own. Thats all im saying.
Thats not manipulating anyone.

[Kermit]

Well for small children it is, I'd say. I seriously doubt your son is capable of cooking, at least not without your supervision, and then you're back to the "gagging".

It's fair enough to not cook things you don't like, I won't and Ellie won't, it does have the effect of limiting a child's food consumption to what mummy feeds him/her, though.

[freethepeeps]

My main point is that I don't think it is a parental place to impose certain political views on their children from a young age

Is it okay to take them to church? Supermarkets? Festivals? Aren't we socialising them from day one?

Surely the ideal is parents giving their children exposure and access to lots of different issues and viewpoints?

And, of course, generalisations are not always helpful. I know vegtarian parents who cook meat for their kids, and I know meat eating parents who cook vegetarian food for their kids.

It would be lovely if we could all afford to eat only organic and humanely produced foods/and or meats, but in the real world it isn't always an option.

Is ther a noted problem in our society with malnourished vegan children? Cos I honestly am not aware of it.

[SuzyCreamcheese]

Well for small children it is, I'd say. I seriously doubt your son is capable of cooking, at least not without your supervision, and then you're back to the "gagging".

It's fair enough to not cook things you don't like, I won't and Ellie won't, it does have the effect of limiting a child's food consumption to what mummy feeds him/her, though.
Well I can see it may be a problem if I was the average consumer, but as it happens, mine and my families diet is very varied, and pretty darned healthy for the best part.
the vegetarian food I was cooked at home by my mum and stepdad was pretty healthy and varied too, much more so than the lovely stodgy meat based diet I got when I visited my nanas (it was nice though - stovies anyone?)

[SuzyCreamcheese]

Well for small children it is, I'd say. I seriously doubt your son is capable of cooking, at least not without your supervision,
.
Yeah but his dad could do it.

[Kermit]

Is it okay to take them to church? Supermarkets? Festivals? Aren't we socialising them from day one?

Fair comment that, I was more thinking along the lines of politicising things though. I personally would send my child to a private school if they wanted to go, for instance, even though I find the idea of them abhorrent.

Surely the ideal is parents giving their children exposure and access to lots of different issues and viewpoints?

Definitely.

My worry is that the vegan parent wouldn't, in the same way that the MaccyD's mum doesn't. I have no problem with PETA demonstrating or suggesting alternatives; I have a problem with there being no counterbalance. It's the same with the Catholic schools showing "Silent Scream" but not showing the abandoned child cutting his wrists open and hanging himself, and not showing the mother who can't cope jumping off a bridge with her child.

It would be lovely if we could all afford to eat only organic and humanely produced foods/and or meats, but in the real world it isn't always an option.

Is ther a noted problem in our society with malnourished vegan children? Cos I honestly am not aware of it.

After a certain age there isn't a difference, but in very young children I think the study does illustrate that it can be a problem.

In a wider scale though, veganism and vegetarianism tends to be more of a middle-class pursuit, for want of a better way of describing it. Processed meat crap is cheap, but veg (even processed veg crap such as the cow muck Linda McCartney called "food") isn't; you have to have a bit of money to be veggie and stick to it, IMHO.

The trouble is not meat, or not meat, the trouble is what food is eaten. A child who goes to McDonald's every day and has a Quorn burger with his supersized fries will still be unhealthy and obese, so to bring McDonald's into it is a bit absurd; meat-eaters who eat the humanely produced food (which doesn't need to be as expensive as it is) will be healthier than it.

The main trouble is that humane food is not possible anymore, because of legislation preventing farms killing their own. GWST's family always used to get lamb and beef from the farm next door, it was cheap, healthy, humane, but now the farm can't kill their own and have to ship it in a tiny truck to the abbatoir, and abbatoirs are not exactly humane. But that's what happens when big business takes over the world, I guess.

[Kermit]

Yeah but his dad could do it.
And if dad is the same as mum?

[SuzyCreamcheese]

he gets what hes given or starves. Its a child rearing technique to stop fussy children demanding their own menu every single bloody meal - it does happen - often.

[Kermit]

he gets what hes given or starves. Its a child rearing technique to stop fussy children demanding their own menu every single bloody meal - it does happen - often.
There's nothing wrong with that, really it's good parenting otherwise little junior just eats chocolate and crisps for tea.

It does remove the validity of the point about "choice" though, in any real sense. Which is all I'm getting at.

[wheresmyplacebo]

why would a parent not want their child to eat ANY meat or animal products though, for their 'childs good' - only reason i can think of is their politcal beliefs which is crap its like forcing kids to go church which id never do

food isnt all aobut health and nutrition, its a pleasure too and a variety of tastes should be encouraged, and meat is part of it, like vegetables, fruits, dairy products etc etc and thats something id never deprieve a child of

[freethepeeps]

Vegan Children Some of the Healthiest in the World (http://www.vegetarian.org.uk/mediareleases/050221.html)

I have to say that isenheart8s contribution to this thread was quite funny...

[SuzyCreamcheese]

When they researched it werent they basing their idea of a vegan diet on the kind of diet they had in the third world - not the kind of diet a british person may have with full access to fresh vegetables and a local holland and barrett shop with vegan alternatives to nearly everything.
.
Good link FTP. I knew it.
Im not even vegetarian, but Im not trying to kid myself that I eat meat because its the healthy or ethical thing to do. I eat it because its easier and it can be tasty.

[Kermit]

The VVF would dispute it though, regardless of factual base. Neutral source, plskthnx :thumb:

And yes, I agree that veggies have less rates of obesity and coronary heart disease: not many veggies deep-fry a cauliflower, do they? But the VVF slew the WHO's point considerably, and it makes me dispute the validity of the entire press release when they emphasise the word meat but not the words rich, sugar, saturated fat and dietary cholesterol. Eat too much of any one food group and it's bad for you, as any fule kno, but to pin the blame on meat is stupid. Meat shouldn't be the main part of any meal, but it's important to have it there.

[freethepeeps]

The VVF would dispute it though, .

Yeah, thats why I tagged my post "vegetarian society shocker"

[Kermit]

Oh yes, so you did.

Don't normally read that bit, it always used to be "re:re:re:re:re: GOBSHITE!" My error.

But still, it's hardly a good source to illustrate that "vegan children are healthy".