American soldiers in Babylon

[Dear Wendy]

According to the British Museum, an American base in the biblical town of Babylon has managed to impose damage on the 2600 year remaining ruins.

What a waste. Seriously, I get literally sad at such stuff. The same with the theft under WW2 of historical valuables and in Iraq. Just that this is different, as it's pure wrecklessness :(

[Renzo]

It is a really big shame, but it was unlikely the yanks were going to be careful is it? I mean if they don't mind killing tens of thousands of civilians whats a piece of land going to mean to them. Hell, I would put money on most of the troops not knowing what Babylon was..

[Dear Wendy]

Urgh. I absolutely hate that tone. It brings nothing constructive.

[Fiend_85]

To be fair, it's not a crime not knowing that some ancient city existed half-way around the world several thousands years ago.

[Renzo]

Urgh. I absolutely hate that tone. It brings nothing constructive.

What was i supposed to say. "OMG IM GLAD THEY DID?!!"

But seriously, why are they going to care about some land when they dont care about lives?

[The Matadore]

Meh , accidents happen.

[Fiend_85]

Meh , accidents happen.
You can't write off damage to an ancient city like that. They didn't have to camp in something that was a major centre of the ancient world. It's not going to help relations, and it looks like unbelievable ignorance.

[Renzo]

Meh , accidents happen.

I'm curious to know if you would say that if it was your house and your land that was destroyed...

[Diesel]

~ Yeah, it comes down to a matter of "Babylon is Ours" and not much more...we, US/GB will do with it as we wish. The only thing special there is the dates. ~

Not really the way I feel but when folks are shooting at you little else matters beyond self preservation.

:banghead:

[Namaste]

According to the British Museum, an American base in the biblical town of Babylon has managed to impose damage on the 2600 year remaining ruins.

What a waste. Seriously, I get literally sad at such stuff. The same with the theft under WW2 of historical valuables and in Iraq. Just that this is different, as it's pure wrecklessness :(


I feel for ya... There should be a worldwide law protecting historical sites around the world. I think anybody who desecrates a place of the ancestors should be banged up. Stonehenge has been vandalised before as well and that's a shame because it shows a blatant lack of respect for the people who've gone before them.

[Man Of Kent]

Meh , accidents happen.

Troll.

[Namaste]

Wonder what they would think if somebody ruined one of their monuments.

[Man Of Kent]

Wonder what they would think if somebody ruined one of their monuments.

Like WTC you mean?

[Namaste]

Was thinking more along the lines of Mount Rushmore.

[leel]

If it's a crime for Ozzy Osborne to piss on the Alamo - then of course it's a crime to damade THGoB! Unesco(?) or the Iraqis should prosecute - and hopefully the outcry will prompt a more sensitive approach in the future...but I doubt it.

[Diesel]

Wonder what they would think if somebody ruined one of their monuments.
They did. They are called the Twin Towers/World Trade Center & Pentagon.

Personally I don't like to see archelogical sites damaged or ruined...but self preservation comes first in any and all combat zones over that of a pot shard, etc.

:chin: :banghead: :yeees:

[Clandestine]

Mentioning the WTC is a spurious and inane justification for our entirely illegal warmongering and continued occupation of Iraq. Neither Iraq nor any of its people had anything to do with 911, so please find another lame excuse for our aggressionistic destructive tendencies in foreign lands.

[Yerascrote]

Mentioning the WTC is a spurious and inane justification for our entirely illegal warmongering and continued occupation of Iraq. Neither Iraq nor any of its people had anything to do with 911, so please find another lame excuse for our aggressionistic destructive tendencies in foreign lands.

true, are you a politician, your use of rhetoric is enviable.

[Diesel]

I hold all islamics responsable for the attack upon US, supra., making Iraq as good a target as any.

Next will be Iran's nuclear facilities followed by giving Syria a sound spanking for interfering after they were told to stay out of our affairs in the land of oil and dates...really though, the dates are more valuable.

And Iraq has the finest dates in the world.

:banghead:

[Tim the Enchanter]

I hold all islamics responsable for the attack upon US, supra., making Iraq as good a target as any.

:

How's that then? How was EVERY Muslim involved in an attack carried out by extremeists? Riddle me that.

[Renzo]

I hold all islamics responsable for the attack upon US, supra., making Iraq as good a target as any.

Next will be Iran's nuclear facilities followed by giving Syria a sound spanking for interfering after they were told to stay out of our affairs in the land of oil and dates...really though, the dates are more valuable.

And Iraq has the finest dates in the world.

:banghead:

By that logic its every Christian's fault that Iraq was invaded then.

[Yerascrote]

I hold all islamics responsable for the attack upon US, supra., making Iraq as good a target as any.

Next will be Iran's nuclear facilities followed by giving Syria a sound spanking for interfering after they were told to stay out of our affairs in the land of oil and dates...really though, the dates are more valuable.

And Iraq has the finest dates in the world.

:banghead:

i seriously hope thats a lukesh impersonation

[morrocan roll]

I hold all islamics responsable for the attack upon US, supra., making Iraq as good a target as any.


:banghead:it gets ever clearer why so many people want to kill you ...

[Clandestine]

Thus highlighting the success of the present admin's propaganda and misinformation of the majority of the apathetic and worldly ignorant population of our nation. Like every empire in history, ours too will crumble and when it does, mentalities such as yours will provide the measure by which we receive our own judgement.

You are every bit as hateful and psycopathic as those you condemn.

[Dear Wendy]

Diesel is seriously scaring me.

His nasty posts in the other thread only adds fuel to the fire.

[morrocan roll]

your targets diesel.
http://images.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://www.zmag.org/Italy/images/vauro_2.gif&imgrefurl=http://www.zmag.org/Italy/vauro-baghdad.htm&h=400&w=378&sz=21&tbnid=pIBWDol-xG4J:&tbnh=119&tbnw=113&start=72&prev=/images%3Fq%3Ddead%2Bold%2Bpeople%26start%3D60%26hl %3Den%26lr%3D%26sa%3DN

[Clandestine]

Oh it's been clear from reading his renewed posts that he is simply another sad, conflicted member of the Thanatos-styled cult of death. In character and principle no less onerous than those against whom our grandfathers fought in WWII - for which they subsequently sought the establishment of the very multilateral mechanisms for peaceful conflict resolution that these militant maniacs (and the criminal administration they defend) scorn and deride.

[Dear Wendy]

No, he just seems fucked beyond belief. No coherency, nor even a sense of sanity in his posts.

[Clandestine]

As one can expect from those consumed with bigotry, ignorance and hatred.

[Diesel]

No hate to it...indeed, I like people...kind of a 'people person' if you understand what I mean.

And if you don't you'll just read into what I say the things you want to hear.

Yes, I see islam as our enemy...all of islam. And I perceive that the only solution to that problem will be the current proposal being discussed which included eleminating Meca & Medina by turning them into mounds of green glass. (not my idea, just one being considered.)

Were we facing a terrorist threat from a single country I would not hold this position at all but since islamics from all the muslim countries are supporting this jahid against US then truly...they are all the enemy.

:banghead:

[Fiend_85]

No, but damaging stuff is, surely?
Yes, but that's the responsibility of commanding staff, not your average soldier.

[Amira]

No hate to it...indeed, I like people...kind of a 'people person' if you understand what I mean.

And if you don't you'll just read into what I say the things you want to hear.

Yes, I see islam as our enemy...all of islam. And I perceive that the only solution to that problem will be the current proposal being discussed which included eleminating Meca & Medina by turning them into mounds of green glass. (not my idea, just one being considered.)

Were we facing a terrorist threat from a single country I would not hold this position at all but since islamics from all the muslim countries are supporting this jahid against US then truly...they are all the enemy.

:banghead:

Since when has Saudi Arabia ever been a threat to the US...never, and how the hell has the distrustion of some pathetic buildings with no histroical or religious nature given you americans the right to feel free to destroy a religious centres such as Mecca and Medina.

i was actually beginning to feel sorry for you, once you get talking you do have some idea of things but its all brainwashed in the typical American way..."Muslims are bad" if we are so bad then why are your soldiers the ones fighting a war in Iraq which has no cause and killing people who are totally innocent.

and muslims support the jihad only because every muslim country is being threatened by your really shitty excuse for a country (sorry i meant government), i didnt see muslims wanting a Jihad when Clinton was in power....no because he was a proper president....not a war mongering git like bush is proud of being, so if you know whats good for you then shut you mouth unless you have something good coming out of it.

[Fiend_85]

Since when has Saudi Arabia ever been a threat to the US...
Actually, 15 of the sept11th hijackers were Saudi...

[Amira]

Actually, 15 of the 9/11 hijackers were Saudi...

15 out of how many million though :banghead: and it isnt like the government supported them is it?

[Dear Wendy]

Since when has Saudi Arabia ever been a threat to the US...never, and how the hell has the distrustion of some pathetic buildings with no histroical or religious nature given you americans the right to feel free to destroy a religious centres such as Mecca and Medina.

i was actually beginning to feel sorry for you, once you get talking you do have some idea of things but its all brainwashed in the typical American way..."Muslims are bad" if we are so bad then why are your soldiers the ones fighting a war in Iraq which has no cause and killing people who are totally innocent.

and muslims support the jihad only because every muslim country is being threatened by your really shitty excuse for a country (sorry i meant government), i didnt see muslims wanting a Jihad when Clinton was in power....no because he was a proper president....not a war mongering git like bush is proud of being, so if you know whats good for you then shut you mouth unless you have something good coming out of it.

Saudi Arabia have been a threat to the US, since it being a mass producer of terrorists. The government at such do not openly condone it. But private high-ranking princes do give enormous sums of support to the islamists. The government as such also gives large sums to the whole religious and educational sector (which is controlled by the islamic scholars) and these openly preach hatred towards the west. That's the problematic with Saudi Arabia, they try to nurture too many interests in conflicting directions. Which is probably partially the reason for going into Iraq. Here the US had the chance to influence the government in a direction beneficial to themselves and have a contact for oil in the middle east.

How have Mecca and Medina been destroyed? :confused:

And sweets, why are you going about him taring all Muslim with the same brush, when you didn't have a problem being racist "once in a while" (or something to that extent). To be honest, you wrote the exact same as he did, just directed at another group.


Oh, and again why do I lack decency, sweets? :)

[Uncle Joe]

They did. They are called the Twin Towers/World Trade Center & Pentagon.

Personally I don't like to see archelogical sites damaged or ruined...but self preservation comes first in any and all combat zones over that of a pot shard, etc.

:chin: :banghead: :yeees:Babylon wrecked bywar (http://www.guardian.co.uk/Iraq/Story/0,2763,1391042,00.html)

Among the damage found by Mr Curtis, who was invited to Babylon by Iraqi antiquities experts, were cracks and gaps where somebody had tried to gouge out the decorated bricks forming the famous dragons of the Ishtar Gate.

He saw a 2,600-year-old brick pavement crushed by military vehicles, archaeological fragments scattered across the site, and trenches driven into ancient deposits.

Vast amounts of sand and earth, visibly mixed with archaeological fragments, were gouged from the site to fill thousands of sandbags and metal mesh baskets. When this practice was stopped, large quantities of sand and earth were brought in from elsewhere, contaminating the site for future generations of archaeologists.'I don't see any mention of the area being a 'combat zone'. Do you know otherwise?

[Uncle Joe]

Since when has Saudi Arabia ever been a threat to the US...neverYou must admit, Amira, dedicated troll though Diesel is (still not saying 'ban him', 'cause we like to hear other views here), SA hasn't got the greatest of reps in these matters. As well as the 15 hi-jackers, there's the matter of the Wahabi sect and it's influence, fuelled by the Palestinian conflict.

Of course, the fact that Bush chose to attack a country that had nothing to do with 911, rather than taking SA to task, hasn't enhanced America's reputation in the middle east either.

[Clandestine]

Seems I recall fairly widespread outrage and criticism eminating from US press and media back when the Taliban took it upon themselves to destroy some ancient buddhas in Afghanistan, yet here we are with stock-in-trade hypocrisy watching our own mindless military machine perpetrate the same ignorant cultural barbarity for which we so readily point the finger at others.

[Amira]

:banghead: you all missed the point of what i was trying to say....

[Dear Wendy]

Maybe you should explain yourself better then?
And while you're at it, tell me why exactly I lack decency...

[Uncle Joe]

:banghead: you all missed the point of what i was trying to say....I'm all ears... :)

[Diesel]

http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=42272

"Has U.S. threatened
to vaporize Mecca?
Intelligence expert says nuke option is reason bin Laden has been quiet

Posted: January 7, 2005
1:00 a.m. Eastern

© 2005 WorldNetDaily.com

Why hasn't Osama bin Laden's terror network executed an attack on U.S. soil since 9-11?

Simple, says Dr. Jack Wheeler, creator of an acclaimed intelligence website dubbed "the oasis for rational conservatives": The U.S. has threatened to nuke the Muslim holy city of Mecca should the terror leader strike America again.

On his website, To the Point, Wheeler explains how the Bush administration has identified the potential of wiping Mecca off the map as bin Laden's ultimate point of vulnerability – the Damoclean Sword hanging over his head.


"Israel … recognizes that the Aswan Dam is Egypt's Damoclean Sword," writes Wheeler. "There is no possibility whatever of Egypt's winning a war with Israel, for if Aswan is blown, all of inhabited Egypt is under 20 feet of water. Once the Israelis made this clear to the Egyptians, the possibility of any future Egyptian attack on Israel like that of 1948, 1967, and 1972 is gone."

Wheeler says talk of bin Laden's Damoclean Sword has infiltrated the Beltway.

Writes Wheeler in his members-only column: "There has been a rumor floating in the Washington ether for some time now that George Bush has figured out what Sword of Damocles is suspended over Osama bin Laden's head. It's whispered among Capitol Hill staffers on the intel and armed services committees; White House NSC (National Security Council) members clam up tight if you begin to hint at it; and State Department neo-cons love to give their liberal counterparts cardiac arrhythmia by elliptically conversing about it in their presence.

"The whispers and hints and ellipses are getting louder now because the rumor explains the inexplicable: Why hasn't there been a repeat of 9-11? How can it be that after this unimaginable tragedy and Osama's constant threats of another, we have gone over three years without a single terrorist attack on American soil?"

Available only to subscribers of To the Point, Wheeler ends his column by explaining the effectiveness of the Mecca threat.

"Completely obliterating the terrorists' holiest of holies, rendering what is for them the world's most sacred spot a radioactive hole in the ground is retribution of biblical proportions – and those are the only proportions that will do the job.

"Osama would have laughed off such a threat, given his view that Americans are wussies who cut and run after a few losses, such as Lebanon in 1983 and Somalia in 1993. Part of Bush's rationale for invading Afghanistan and Iraq – obviously never expressed publicly – was to convince Osama that his threat to nuke Mecca was real. Osama hates America just as much as ever, but he is laughing no more."

Wheeler says bin Laden is "playing poker with a Texas cowboy holding the nuclear aces," so there's nothing al-Qaida could do that could come remotely close to risking obliterating Mecca.

Writes Wheeler: "So far, Osama has decided not to see if GW is bluffing. Smart move."

As for Tehran, Iran, there is this:

http://www.muslimedia.com/editor181a.htm

:banghead: :heart:

[Uncle Joe]

Only in WorldNetDaily...

I can imagine the dear little neocons achieving spontaneous erections over that little nugget, but any sane person knows it would be the worst possible response to the fanatics of al-Qa'ida. But by all means, if they want to have the hands of every muslim, however well-disposed they might have been to peaceful co-existence (short pause for Diesel's cynical laugh) turned against the US, it's certainly a plan... a really dumb plan, so just as well it's bollocks...

[Clandestine]

Rabid militant reactionaries are precisely the audience Worldnetdaily aims its ridiculous gutter journalism. A regular favorite source for our militant cult of death afficianados.

[Diesel]

That I have a cynical laugh?

I mean really...have you been spying?

http://www.gunsnet.net/forums/images/smilies/lool.gif

:banghead:

[Amira]

I'm all ears... :)

basically what i meant was that the saudi government isnt sending troops into america to destroy them.

oh and the whole point i was trying to make about mecca and madina was that whats religion got to do with anything....the americans had their world trade centre bombed.....it wasnt the centre for all their religious beliefs. but i guess some people dont understand that *sigh*

[Diesel]

basically what i meant was that the saudi government isnt sending troops into america to destroy them.

oh and the whole point i was trying to make about mecca and madina was that whats religion got to do with anything....the americans had their world trade centre bombed.....it wasnt the centre for all their religious beliefs. but i guess some people dont understand that *sigh*
Good morning Amira (for me), actually SA is a major source of the US problem with islam, but we'll fix it because we can.

Now, try to understand this; the unversally accepted religious symbol for US is $$$$$$$ and that is what the WTO was all about. The business of America is business...that's why we have 90 percent of the world busting their arses to support US in the style to which we have become accustomed and acquired by whatever means. (cynical laugh button off)

:banghead: http://www.gunsnet.net/forums/images/smilies/pileon.gif :heart:

[Dear Wendy]

basically what i meant was that the saudi government isnt sending troops into america to destroy them.

oh and the whole point i was trying to make about mecca and madina was that whats religion got to do with anything....the americans had their world trade centre bombed.....it wasnt the centre for all their religious beliefs. but i guess some people dont understand that *sigh*


Apart from funding the people who do preach and ar involved in the making of terrorism, then no, Saudi Arabia are all innocent.

Either way, didn't you have something to explain to me?

[Amira]

Good morning Amira (for me), actually SA is a major source of the US problem with islam, but we'll fix it because we can.

Now, try to understand this; the unversally accepted religious symbol for US is $$$$$$$ and that is what the WTO was all about. The business of America is business...that's why we have 90 percent of the world busting their arses to support US in the style to which we have become accustomed and acquired by whatever means. (cynical laugh button off)

:banghead: http://www.gunsnet.net/forums/images/smilies/pileon.gif :heart:

im not going to comment on the former.....but the latter i will, maybe the americans should bust their own arses instead of exploiting the labour and natural resources of less fortunate countries. so what big deal if economy in america had a bad year....they're fine now because of their endless exploitation of other countries.

you know i had a talk with one of my lecturers today about how pathetic people in america are and about their ignorance...and guess what...he AGREED, he said that 80% of americans dont know shit about the world outside north america and thats so true. your media is perhaps the most biased media in the world....go watch bbc world and you might change your views after you get over the initial shock that you have REALLY censored news

[Amira]

Apart from funding the people who do preach

i dont see a problem with preaching religion....all religions do it so why shouldnt we have people do it?

[Dear Wendy]

i dont see a problem with preaching religion....all religions do it so why shouldnt we have people do it?

Preaching hatred and death is not connected to Islam. Or do you feel like correcting me on that?

And why do you keep ignoring my question? Wouldn't it be easier just answering instead of me keeping on asking you?

[Amira]

Preaching hatred and death is not connected to Islam. Or do you feel like correcting me on that?

And why do you keep ignoring my question? Wouldn't it be easier just answering instead of me keeping on asking you?

oh so is that the only type of preaching going islam these days....i wasnt aware of that...i must start teaching my fellow muslims to kill other people :rolleyes:

and as to why i am ignoring your question...you are being childish enough to continue this well after its been forgotten about by everyone and if you were mature to any degree you would opt to PMing me.

[Diesel]

i dont see a problem with preaching religion....all religions do it so why shouldnt we have people do it?
Because it is what will ultimately destroy your country if what is being preached deliberately damages a 'host' country like US/GB.
:heart: :banghead: :heart:

[Dear Wendy]

oh so is that the only type of preaching going islam these days....i wasnt aware of that...i must start teaching my fellow muslims to kill other people :rolleyes:

and as to why i am ignoring your question...you are being childish enough to continue this well after its been forgotten about by everyone and if you were mature to any degree you would opt to PMing me.

Maybe you should read what is said, instead of making shit up? Just a suggestion.

Well, you made a claim in public, so what's the problem of backing that claim in public too? I mean I could PM you, but I am not the only one curious for you to justify your comment :)

[Amira]

Because it is what will ultimately destroy your country if what is being preached deliberately damages a 'host' country like US/GB.
:heart: :banghead: :heart:

my country...at the moment we have very good connections with both the UK and the US and im pretty sure things will continue that way unless either of them attack one of the Arab countries without a valid reason.

[Amira]

Well, you made a claim in public, so what's the problem of backing that claim in public too? I mean I could PM you, but I am not the only one curious for you to justify your comment :)

yes i said something in public....however it was solely addressed at you, therefore i see it as nobody elses business and if they feel that it is their business let them PM me too, they are more than welcome to :)

[Dear Wendy]

Cool. Check your PMs.

[Dear Wendy]

What a cop out you are...
Quite a coward, huh?


You know, you just proved why no one should listen to anything coming from you :)

[Diesel]

my country...at the moment we have very good connections with both the UK and the US and im pretty sure things will continue that way unless either of them attack one of the Arab countries without a valid reason.
Amira, the House of Saud has good connections with some US government officials...and it generally ends there. Folks here tend to see SA as a 'cancer' on the world that must be excised and we, US, have taken Iraq to use as a base to prevent the further spread and influence of islam and wahabbism in the West.

Believe it or not, folks here do listen to what is being said 'over there' and act accordingly.

islam is viewed here as a 'pirates religion' with little to nothing to offer the West in the way of enlightenment and useful only in supressing and controling the 'third world dreck holes' where poverty reigns. Certainly the Ottoman Empire or the 'great' Caliphite will not be allowed to rise again under any pretence and islam has nothing to make either happen.

At best islamics have copied (note that word copied) a few crude nukes from US/Russia/GB/France, etc., but were they to dare to use one it would require and receive such retaliation that islam would only be taught to little children to make them be good or laugh depending upon the situation.

Truly, your faith is your business but try to understand that 'all' religion is poison.

http://islam.tc/ask-imam/view.php?q=1394

:heart: :banghead: :heart:

[Amira]

Amira, the House of Saud has good connections with some US government officials...and it generally ends there. Folks here tend to see SA as a 'cancer' on the world that must be excised and we, US, have taken Iraq to use as a base to prevent the further spread and influence of islam and wahabbism in the West.

Believe it or not, folks here do listen to what is being said 'over there' and act accordingly.

islam is viewed here as a 'pirates religion' with little to nothing to offer the West in the way of enlightenment and useful only in supressing and controling the 'third world dreck holes' where poverty reigns. Certainly the Ottoman Empire or the 'great' Caliphite will not be allowed to rise again under any pretence and islam has nothing to make either happen.

At best islamics have copied (note that word copied) a few crude nukes from US/Russia/GB/France, etc., but were they to dare to use one it would require and receive such retaliation that islam would only be taught to little children to make them be good or laugh depending upon the situation.

Truly, your faith is your business but try to understand that 'all' religion is poison.

http://islam.tc/ask-imam/view.php?q=1394

:heart: :banghead: :heart:

i am not saudi...

[Dear Wendy]

but i had the decency...(something which you appear to lack)

So how decent is to come with a claim, and not back it up?

[Diesel]

I did not say you were saudi.

You are an attractive lady and that is almost all that I know about you.

:heart: :banghead: :heart:

[eternalsunshine]

And I know quite a lot about you dear sir :wave:

[Diesel]

http://www.muslimedia.com/editor181a.htm

"US and its allies increasing political pressure on their real enemy, Islamic Iran
Shortly after US troops occupied Baghdad in 2003, president George W. Bush warned Iraqis that there was no prospect of political institution-building or transfer of power to an Iraqi government so long as military resistance continued. At the time, the warning was taken as a pretext for the US to maintain political control for as long as possible; eighteen months later, the process of a transfer of power to an elected Iraqi government is well advanced, despite the fact that resistance remains a major problem in many parts of the country. The change in the US’s position is partly a measure of its failure in Iraq, in that it has repeatedly had to adjust its plans because of the strength of Iraqi resistance. However, it is also partly a sign of the US’s flexibility, its ability to adapt to changing circumstances, while also keeping an eye on the longer-term objective, in this case the installation of a pliable, pro-Western government, or at least one that the US can dominate and manipulate.

This ability to keep an eye on the longer-term objective is also visible in another sphere: their plans for “regime change” in Iran. Although Saddam Hussain had been widely regarded as the US’s key bogey-man in the Middle East for many years before the US’s invasion of Iraq in 2003, US policy intellectuals, key figures in the right-wing and nationalist think-tanks that dominate much policy debate (even during the presidency of the Democrat, Bill Clinton), and Israeli commentators who have disproportionate influence in the US have long regarded the Islamic Republic of Iran as a far more dangerous enemy and a far more important target.

The reasons for this are not difficult to understand: Saddam Hussain was undoubtedly a ruthless, tyrannical and murderous dictator within Iraq, but he was widely hated by virtually all Muslims all over the world, despite his attempts to promote himself as a champion of anti-Americanism and was absolutely no threat to the US’s hegemony or interests. The Islamic State of Iran, on the other hand, proves the possibility and provides an example of truly independent and popular Muslim statehood, based on the principles and values of Islam and the support of a Muslim people, that appeals to hundreds of millions Muslims all over the world, whatever their nationality and school of thought. It also gives the lie to the Western claim that it is impossible either to establish and run a modern society on Islamic principles (or indeed any principles except Western ones), or to survive in the modern world order without accepting Western hegemony. Saddam Husain may have provided the US with a useful pretext to maintain its massive military presence in the Middle East over the last decade, but a reading of US and other western foreign policy plans for the Middle East in recent years shows that it has been the challenge posed by Islamic Iran that really concerns the US and the West.

US neo-cons and other policy intellectuals have been making noises about “regime change” in Iran for many years, without making any positive move in that direction. However, there are more and more signs that the Bush administration is making regime change in Iran a key priority for Bush’s second term in office. This is not unexpected from two points of view. First, it is the logical next step for the US, having completed the encirclement of Iran with its occupations of Iraq and Afghanistan, and the consolidation of its military presences in Central Asia and the Persian Gulf. Secondly, it also enables the Bush administration to maintain an aggressive forward momentum in its foreign policy – couched as a “war against terror” – at a time when it cannot afford very much critical examination of its performance to date.

Much attention has been paid to the US’s attempts to persuade the International Atomic Energy Agency (IAEA) to report Iran to the Security Council for obstructing international attempts to monitor its nuclear power programme (see p. 13). This international pressure is part of what has become a well-established American pattern, by which a state identified as an enemy is vilified, accused of terrorism, accused of developing illegal and aggressive weaponry, and subjected to ever more oppressive international political pressure in order to create a situation in which the US can claim to be acting against it on behalf of the international community and for the most altruistic of reasons. This strategy was totally exposed in the case of Iraq, when even the US’s western allies were reluctant to go along with it, and events after the invasion confirmed that the US’s case for war had been built on total lies. Nonetheless, the US feels so secure in its international domination, and the fact that no one can do anything to counter its plans effectively, that the strategy is being used on Iran.

In another sense as well, the US is repeating its Iraq strategy: in its vilification of the Iranian government, seeking to portray it as a dictatorial regime dominated by a tiny clique oppressing the vast majority of Iranian people who are freedom-loving, pro-western, and desperate to be liberated by the US, which they recognise as a champion of democracy and oppressed peoples all over the world. Again, this line is being promoted despite the fact that a similar approach in Iraq - where Saddam Hussain’s regime really was as bad as the US made out, at least in domestic terms – has been exposed by events in Iraq after the invasion.

The US’s approach in this area is expressed in a new proposal for Iran policy, published by the Committee on the Present Danger (CPD), a group of senior neo-conservative hawks, last month. The CPD was founded last summer specifically to rally support for the broad foreign policy objectives of the Bush regime. It is co-chaired by former US Secretary of State George Shultz, a senior adviser to the Bush administration and a mentor of Condoleeza Rice, the US’s new secretary of state. It also includes former CIA chief James Woolsey; Frank Gaffney, director of the Center for Security Policy; Newt Gingrich, formerly the Republican Speaker of Congress; and a number of other senior rightwing figures associated with rightwing thinktanks such as the American Enterprise Institute and the Project of the New American Century.

One significant feature of this paper, ‘Iran – A New Approach’, is the personalization of the enemy in the figure of Imam Khamenei, the Rahbar of Islamic Iran, in the same way that Saddam Hussain was personalised as the enemy in the case of Iraq. It is based on the premise that “Iran under Khamenei is pursuing regional hegemony in the Middle East and continues to be the world’s foremost state supporter of terrorism.” The paper reserves “the right to take out or cripple [Khamenei’s] nuclear capabilities”, but its main approach is based on the assumption that “Iran’s people are our allies... They want to free themselves from Khamenei’s oppression and they want Iran to join the community of prosperous, peaceful democracies.” It then goes on to recommend “a peaceful but forceful strategy to engage with the Iranian people to remove the threat and establish the strong relationship which is in both nations’ and the region’s interests.”

In its recommendations, the paper suggests a new US policy which would include a pledge to assist the Iranian people to achieve democracy; an announcement of the US’s willingness to reopen its embassy in Tehran; engagement with Iranian government officials and politicians in order to persuade them of the benefits of working with the US, rather than against it; developing direct relations with the military and other agencies in Iran to try to undermine the regime’s pillars of support; developing a case against Imam Khamenei for indictment in an appropriate international court; and the progressive implementation of “smart sanctions” against “the Khamenei regime” and its supporters, particularly economic sanctions aimed at overseas institutions associated with it.

At this stage, the premises of this paper may appear as ludicrous as the accusations against Iraq appeared when they were first made in the early 1990s. However, history shows that reality is no bar to the US once it sets its mind on a particular policy. Elements of the proposals in this paper can already be seen in the US’s moves against Iran. Iranians and their allies, in the Islamic movement outside Iran, need to be keenly aware of the dangers now facing the world’s only Islamic state and the leading edge of the global Islamic movement. In particular, Iranian officials and politicians need to understand that the support and credibility it enjoys among Muslims around the world are assets they cannot afford to squander in what are likely to be extremely difficult times in the next few years."

:banghead: :heart:

[marv]

The US wont do anything about the Saudi Arabia for the sole reason that Saudi Arabia and the ruling families have vasts amount of money in the US economy and in the Carlye Group

http://www.commondreams.org/headlines01/1211-05.htm

http://www.inthesetimes.com/issue/25/25/feature3.shtml

http://www.commondreams.org/views03/0520-05.htm

Long shielded by their willingness to supply the United States with cheap oil, to subsidize the American arms industry with major weapons purchases and to make lucrative deals with other major U.S. corporate interests, the United States has allowed this family dictatorship to get away with practices that would have been considered unacceptable for almost any other country.

[eternalsunshine]

Oh fuck...here we go.

Is this all you are capable of Diesel...have you not learned that simple cut and pastes do not constitute a debate?

[eternalsunshine]

The US wont do anything about the Saudi Arabia for the sole reason that Saudi Arabia and the ruling families have vasts amount of money in the US economy and in the Carlye Group

http://www.commondreams.org/headlines01/1211-05.htm

http://www.inthesetimes.com/issue/25/25/feature3.shtml

http://www.commondreams.org/views03/0520-05.htm

Yeah, I think that the Saudis in effect own over 8% of the entire US economy and if they were to call in their debts the economic future would not be too bright.

How's it feel to have your balls in the hands of the Saudi's Diesel?

:hyper:

[Diesel]

If the saudis called in their markers we'd just turn on the printing press and pay them...that's why the recent talk of wanting to be paid in gold.

The truth is we, US, actually use very little of their oil, what we buy from them is usually sold on the world market for a profit. The saudis would love to cut out the middleman but the fact remains that they are incompetent and are unable to manufacture the means for production or transport.

They really aren't good for much of anything actually. Just too much headbanging on the floor. When we, US, tried to train their 'pilots' to fly jet fighters they wanted to still be able to pray to Mecca while in flight. The whole country is just a gold plated turdworld dreckhole awash in oil...and that is not a criticism.

I'm off to lunch, ta...back in a while.

http://www.texasminutemen.org/forum/images/smilies/UFO.gif

:banghead:

[Amira]

They really aren't good for much of anything actually. Just too much headbanging on the floor. When we, US, tried to train their 'pilots' to fly jet fighters they wanted to still be able to pray to Mecca while in flight.

now that was uncalled for....

[eternalsunshine]

You still haven't addressed the main issue concerning the Saudi's ownership of your country's wealth. Hell don't the Saudi ruling elite get a wonderful deal from the chimp and his little poodles. Your administration cares more for the Saudi Royal Family than they do for your average American citizen. I'm off to lunch, ta...back in a while. :banghead:You always seem to take your lunch break when the going gets a little tough chickenhawk...nothing changed there I see.

Your head must be fucking sore btw

[eternalsunshine]

now that was uncalled for....What else would you expect from a chickenhawk fascist Amira. He's just another spotty nosed geek who would wish to be something that he could never be.

Treat him with the contempt he shows to others.

[Globe]

Oh it's been clear from reading his renewed posts that he is simply another sad, conflicted member of the Thanatos-styled cult of death.

So nice to know that I am included in the conversation, even during protracted absenses... :rolleyes:


... i didnt see muslims wanting a Jihad when Clinton was in power.....

Selective blindness? Simple ignorance? Congenital stupidity? Or useful idiot?

In any event, you might consult outside of your fairy tale version of history... http://www.gunsnet.net/forums/images/smilies/lool.gif

[eternalsunshine]

So nice to know that I am included in the conversation, even during protracted absenses... :rolleyes:

Are you Thanatos then?

[Globe]

Are you Thanatos then?

And you would be CLUELESS, then? :wave:

[Yerascrote]

why do all americans or most anyway think jihad is all about blowing america up and why do you tihnk all muslims want to do this, get a life you fukcing weirdos, points at diesel and globe.

[eternalsunshine]

And you would be CLUELESS, then? :wave:Why?

I only asked you if you were Thanatos...is there something wrong with that?

:wave:

[Globe]

why do all americans or most anyway think jihad is all about blowing america up ....

I was responsive to Amira's ignorant assertion concerning "jihad" and Clintoon administration... Care to dispute it intelligently, or simply revert to form and http://www.gunsnet.net/forums/images/smilies/jerkoff.gif ?

[eternalsunshine]

I was responsive to Amira's ignorant assertion concerning "jihad" and Clintoon administration... Care to dispute it intelligently, or simply revert to form and http://www.gunsnet.net/forums/images/smilies/jerkoff.gif ?Are we talking Bin Laden and al Queda here Globe/Thanatos?

[Globe]

Why?

I only asked you if you were Thanatos...is there something wrong with that?


And I was making reference to your being clueless. If observing my signature line is insufficient for you, inquire of MoK, the clandestine collaborator. aladdin, MR, or any other poster whose date of birth is prior to yesterday... ;)

[eternalsunshine]

And I was making reference to your being clueless. If observing my signature line is insufficient for you, inquire of MoK, the clandestine collaborator. aladdin, MR, or any other poster whose date of birth is prior to yesterday... ;)But I thought that Thanatos had been banned :confused:

[Globe]

Are we talking Bin Laden and al Queda here Globe/Thanatos?

Ask Amira to clarify... was her assertion.

[eternalsunshine]

And why are you calling me "clueless" fuck for brains...that really was not called for.

So Globule, were you previously banned under the name Thanatos or what?

[eternalsunshine]

Ask Amira to clarify... was her assertion.Maybe she's gone for lunch...so maybe you should talk to me about it Glob.

[Globe]

And why are you calling me "clueless" ...?

Some things are simply self-evident. ;)

[eternalsunshine]

Are we talking Bin Laden and al Queda here Globe/Thanatos?
Shall we continue Globby?

[Yerascrote]

i have been converted, america has been the victim of an unjustified campaign of terror, we must fight these evil people and destroy their demonic intentions :shocking: :shocking: :shocking:

[The Matadore]

forgotten about by everyone

I aint forgotten your racism, Amira.

[eternalsunshine]

I aint forgotten your racism, Amira.What?!

Aren't you the one who would wish to destroy everything and anything of an Islamic/muslim nature? Methinks that if anyone is a racist here then it is you dear sir.

Talk about calling the kettle black...unbelieveable...totally unbelievable :rolleyes:

[Yerascrote]

I aint forgotten your racism, Amira.


hypocrosy anyone?????

[Dear Wendy]

hypocrosy anyone?????

I don't think you were online yesterday when she went on about how Jews deserved everything they had been through, and how all Jews were as horribe as I am.

Amira was certainly out of line, and the fact that she deleted the post and inserted a :/ face instead, proves this.

Then she says I have a lack of decency, but won't tell me what makes her say so, and what makes her hate me so much from one day to the other...

[Fiend_85]

I don't think you were online yesterday when she went on about how Jews deserved everything they had been through, and how all Jews were as horribe as I am.

Amira was certainly out of line, and the fact that she deleted the post and inserted a :/ face instead, proves this.

Then she says I have a lack of decency, but won't tell me what makes her say so, and what makes her hate me so much from one day to the other...

Whatever it was she says does not alter matadores hypocrisy.

[Yerascrote]

I don't think you were online yesterday when she went on about how Jews deserved everything they had been through, and how all Jews were as horribe as I am.

Amira was certainly out of line, and the fact that she deleted the post and inserted a :/ face instead, proves this.

Then she says I have a lack of decency, but won't tell me what makes her say so, and what makes her hate me so much from one day to the other...

oh sorry didn't read that

[Dear Wendy]

Whatever it was she says does not alter matadores hypocrisy.

You read her post, btw, didn't you?

I was replying to turlough being that it would be quite a thing for Matadore to say when not having read her post, which was indeed racist.
She even jokes about it herself, saying she is having a racist day or whatever. That is in a post that has not yet been editted.

[Globe]

Then she says I have a lack of decency, but won't tell me what makes her say so, and what makes her hate me so much from one day to the other...

Uh...

Your "genetic condition"? :confused: Amira's bigotry? :chin:

Sometimes, the most accurate answer is the simplest...

[Fiend_85]

You read her post, btw, didn't you?

I was replying to turlough being that it would be quite a thing for Matadore to say when not having read her post, which was indeed racist.
She even jokes about it herself, saying she is having a racist day or whatever. That is in a post that has not yet been editted.
It doesn't stop matadore from being a hypocrite. I would suggest that her joking about it would have made it NOT serious, and in fact a joke. How would you feel if I were to say you're having a go at her more because you are a jew, and she is a muslim, as opposed to Matadore's racist behaviour, because he supports Israel...

[Dear Wendy]

It doesn't stop matadore from being a hypocrite. I would suggest that her joking about it would have made it NOT serious, and in fact a joke. How would you feel if I were to say you're having a go at her more because you are a jew, and she is a muslim, as opposed to Matadore's racist behaviour, because he supports Israel...


I am not talking about Matadore here.

I asked whether or not you had read the post :)
Which so far only you have been refering to as a joke. Not even Amira has said so. And has in none of her other post suggested that it might be. No reason for you "cover" for her, when she doesn't make that effort herself.

[Dear Wendy]

Uh...

Your "genetic condition"? :confused: Amira's bigotry? :chin:

Sometimes, the most accurate answer is the simplest...


I would just like her to state it in the open, just like she did when she announced in front of everyone that I lack decency...

[Fiend_85]

I am not talking about Matadore here.

I asked whether or not you had read the post :)
Which so far only you have been refering to as a joke. Not even Amira has said so. And has in none of her other post suggested that it might be. No reason for you "cover" for her, when she doesn't make that effort herself.
I am talking about matadore. Would you care to answer the question? As it stand, I glanced over the post, but don't remember specifically what was said, I felt she was goaded into it and didn't mean a word of it anymore that I mean the following sentance

All blacks are criminals, all jews are thieves, all muslims are terrorists, all asians are kiddy-fiddlers and anyone who does not fit into my exact version of acceptable should be gased with chlorine.

[Dear Wendy]

I am talking about matadore. Would you care to answer the question? As it stand, I glanced over the post, but don't remember specifically what was said, I felt she was goaded into it and didn't mean a word of it anymore that I mean the following sentance

All blacks are criminals, all jews are thieves, all muslims are terrorists, all asians are kiddy-fiddlers and anyone who does not fit into my exact version of acceptable should be gased with chlorine.

Oh, she said afterwards in one the posts who (last time I checked) wasn't deleted that she didn't regret a word of what was said in the post, only the fact that she didn't give other Jews the benefit of a doubt as they couldn't all be as horrible as me (paraphrased).

Btw, I seriously don't understand the wording of your question.

[Fiend_85]

Oh, she said afterwards in one the posts who (last time I checked) wasn't deleted that she didn't regret a word of what was said in the post, only the fact that she didn't give other Jews the benefit of a doubt as they couldn't all be as horrible as me (paraphrased).

Btw, I seriously don't understand the wording of your question.

I put it to you, in the clearest possible way, that you are being harsh with her because she has islamic heritage, and because you are jewish. You are being harsh with her in a way you would not be with Matadore because Matadore supports Israel and hates Muslims. I suggest that you are just as racist as she is, or at the very least a hypocrite in the cause of the fight against racism.

I have spoken to Amira myself, she's on my MSN.

[Dear Wendy]

I can inform you, that her heritage is not the case. Her stupidity is.

Now, Kermit who I believe holds a lot more respect from you than I do, in an earlier post confirmed that my support of Israel does not rub off on my view of Muslims and Arabs.

May I ask what you use as a basis to support your claim? I don't believe the above paragraph justifies such a serious allegation :)

[Globe]

I suggest that you are just as racist as she is, or at the very least a hypocrite in the cause of the fight against racism.


I have friends who are Israeli and Palestinian, both... and I recognize a bigot whatever their origin.

The "ice princess" is a bigot. Are you?

[Kentish]

I put it to you, in the clearest possible way, that you are being harsh with her because she has islamic heritage, and because you are jewish. You are being harsh with her in a way you would not be with Matadore because Matadore supports Israel and hates Muslims. I suggest that you are just as racist as she is, or at the very least a hypocrite in the cause of the fight against racism.

I have spoken to Amira myself, she's on my MSN.
I thought what Amira said was pretty out of order actually, but I didn't want to get involved in the thread.

[Diesel]

now that was uncalled for....
But true. Some 'whattamacallit' must have had to issue a 'fatwa' to allow them to miss prayers while in the air doing something else in allas space.

http://www.texasminutemen.org/forum/images/smilies/UFO.gif

:heart: :banghead: :heart:

[eternalsunshine]

But true. Some 'whattamacallit' must have had to issue a 'fatwa' to allow them to miss prayers while in the air doing something else in allas space.A little ditty for ya little boy scout...

Bill Hicks:

I'm so sick of arming the world, then sending troops over to destroy their fucking arms, you know what I mean?

We keep arming these little countries, then we go and blow the shit out of them. We're like the bullies of the world, y'know. We're like Jack Palance in the movie Shane, throwing the pistol at the sheepherder's feet.

"Pick it up."

"I don't wanna pick it up, Mister, you'll shoot me."

"Pick up the gun."

"Mister, I don't want no trouble. I just came downtown here to get some hardrock candy for my kids, some gingham for my wife. I don't even know what gingham is, but she goes through about ten rolls a week of that stuff. I ain't looking for no trouble, Mister."

"Pick up the gun." (He picks it up. Three shots ring out)

"You all saw him - he had a gun."

[eternalsunshine]

Diesel...you are nothing but a silly slap head to these people. Do you truly believe that any of your Boy Scout leaders and their controlling fuckheads have ever...or will ever give a fuck about a low life such as yourself?

They laugh at people such as yourself...wake up and smell the coffee pal...yer a commodity dickhead...nothing more and nothing less.

Enjoy :)

[morrocan roll]

:lol: :lol: :lol: @eternal!

[eternalsunshine]

Bring it on :D

[morrocan roll]

Bring it on :D
it was the bill hicks story! nice one ...

[Fiend_85]

May I ask what you use as a basis to support your claim? I don't believe the above paragraph justifies such a serious allegation :)
It was a suggestion rather than an accusation, which is why the first time I asked it said 'How would you feel if I were to say...'. I would suggest you need to think about it a little harder.

[The Matadore]

Aren't you the one who would wish to destroy everything and anything of an Islamic/muslim nature

I dont wish to do that, but lets get something straight here.

Islam is not a race, it is a religion, so if i critiscise it I am not a racist.

[Aladdin]

Then again Matadore you are on record here saying the lives of Arabs are worth less than the lives of Jews and Westerners, are you not?

[Dear Wendy]

It was a suggestion rather than an accusation, which is why the first time I asked it said 'How would you feel if I were to say...'. I would suggest you need to think about it a little harder.

And I ask you again, what would make you suggest such a thing? What in my writings on the board suggests that I am in any way against Arabs and Muslims, since such a situation could occur in your head?

[Fiend_85]

And I ask you again, what would make you suggest such a thing? What in my writings on the board suggests that I am in any way against Arabs and Muslims, since such a situation could occur in your head?
What does how I feel about you have anything to do with a situation occuring in my head and applying it to you?

[Amira]

And I ask you again, what would make you suggest such a thing? What in my writings on the board suggests that I am in any way against Arabs and Muslims, since such a situation could occur in your head?

fucking hell just stop already.....yes what i did was totally wrong on a public forum and yes i am fucking sorry, you happy now? just stop nitpicking at every single thing the girl says.

just grow up tal and leave things be...it was me who said what i did not her so stop attacking her.

[Dear Wendy]

Amira says I lack decency, I ask why?
You say, sorry suggest, that I am harsh against Amira because of her heritage, I ask why.

Now, if people in history hadn't asked "why" I doubt we'd get very far...
Same with us. I don't believe our conversations/debates/discussions can go very far if I don't understand where the lack of communication occurs.

K?

[Amira]

Amira says I lack decency, I ask why?
You say, sorry suggest, that I am harsh against Amira because of her heritage, I ask why.

Now, if people in history hadn't asked "why" I doubt we'd get very far...
Same with us. I don't believe our conversations/debates/discussions can go very far if I don't understand where the lack of communication occurs.

K?

see above and reply to my PM then

[Dear Wendy]

fucking hell just stop already.....yes what i did was totally wrong on a public forum and yes i am fucking sorry, you happy now? just stop nitpicking at every single thing the girl says.

just grow up tal and leave things be...it was me who said what i did not her so stop attacking her.

I am not attacking anyone. Merely asking for justification.
You might have started this, but Fiend got involved and came with claims which need justification just as much as your claim of me lacking decency (which you still haven't answered. Not here or in the PMs).

And no, I am not happy now, as I still got no answers out of your half-assed apology/outburst.