For all those who love ChavScum.com

[Martin_Bashir]

(ok lets get provocative)

heres a very funny site i found *point made, link removed* :rolleyes:

for all those who think sight-based prejudice is so very funny, you are sure to think this is hilarious and extremely astute :rolleyes:

[Kentish]

Eh?

[BlackArab]

Appears to be an online directory similair to yellow pages or am I being dense here? :confused:

[Martin_Bashir]

no i've changed the link now

dont worry im doing this to prove a point; the link i have posted is to a ridiculously racist and ill informed site which masquerades as a 'joke' or 'humourous' site.

When that link gets removed for being racist and wrong, i'll want to know why a simlilarly prejudicial site isnt being taken down; ChavScum.com

The reason im doing this is because racism is often based upon ill informed opinions which have their roots in labelling a certain group which is then stratified upon the basis of physical appearance.

Same with ChavScum.

Why tolerate one prejudice but not another :mad: :confused:

[Olive]

Originally posted by Martin_Bashir
Why tolerate one prejudice but not another

because one is a choice.

i'm not condoning either, but i reckon many people would argue that you can't change your skin colour, but you can choose to dress like a chav.

and before anyone pulls the money card, you can buy really nice clothes in asda for a fraction of the price of adidas and even fake market burberry.

[Kentish]

The page cannot be found.

I'm not sure I can see your point here. I also see the problem with prejudice against so-called "chavs". But chavs choose their appearance whereas black people do not. I guess that's the difference. And I'd argue racism was a more serious prejudice than mockery of chavs.

[Martin_Bashir]

all prejudice is a serious matter. to appropriate prejudice in terms of severity is in itself to be prejudicial.

Black people dont choose their skin tone, but they also dont choose to have lots of stereotypes thrown at them, and be called 'Ja Rules' and so forth because of the way some of them dress, which has been pushed as the black 'urban' stereotype.

How far can you choose the community you are born into?

[Skive]

Originally posted by kaffrin
but you can choose to dress like a chav.

So the only think that makes you a chav is the way you dress?

[Martin_Bashir]

yeah but Kaff; this is what im getting at; why does appearance propegate behaviour?

do you buy your asbo with your burberry cap? :confused:

your drink-driving charge with your low range BMW? :confused:

how is it not a choice for young black males to adopt 'Black street' culture, why not Carlton from The Fresh Prince-type intergration? :confused: (discard the monetary connotations im talking just about the cultural and appearance thing).

How much of culture is applied and how much chosen?

[Olive]

Originally posted by Skive
So the only think that makes you a chav is the way you dress?

depends on the individual and their thoughts.

to me it is, yeah. i don't know anything else about them other than how they dress.

then again, i don't really care how people dress so maybe i'm not the person to be grilling. i was just pointing out why there was a difference.

[Kentish]

Originally posted by Martin_Bashir
How far can you choose the community you are born into?
Now you're stuck because if you are saying your community dictates what you choose to wear then the stereotype is valid.

However, I do think prejudice against chavs is unhelpful and divisive. Whether chavness is a class issue is another matter.

All stereotypes are loosely based on truth otherwise their subject wouldn't be recognisable. It doesn't make it right but we instinctively form prejudices all the time - like walking down the street at night you choose whether to cross the road when you see a rowdy group of men, or you may choose to help an old lady who has fallen over...all because of instinctive assumptions about people.

[Martin_Bashir]

Now you're stuck because if you are saying your community dictates what you choose to wear then the stereotype is valid.

no not really; theres a question mark by that sentence which indicates that i do not know to what extent this occurs and that i aknowledge a complex interplay which i cannot fully quantify.

All stereotypes are based upon observational consquence and have degrees of vailidity relating to this, however the scale and accuracy with which this can be applied is in question. Is it helpful to consider groups at the expense of the individual meanings.

What my pet peave in this thread is, is that we allow the wild application of the 'chav' stereotype, yet other such prejudices that are applied on a scale outside reasonable evidential and logical boundaries (for comedic purposes or otherwise) are not tolerated.

[BlackArab]

Originally posted by Martin_Bashir


how is it not a choice for young black males to adopt 'Black street' culture, why not Carlton from The Fresh Prince-type intergration? :confused: (discard the monetary connotations im talking just about the cultural and appearance thing).

How much of culture is applied and how much chosen?

It is a choice based on lifestyle and other factors. No different than any other race. Can application and choice of culture be measured accurately?

Edited to add: culture, imo, is not exactly tangible as you can have more than one that you live by. It is possible for an individual to be both Carlton and The Fresh Prince.

[Kentish]

Originally posted by Martin_Bashir
What my pet peave in this thread is, is that we allow the wild application of the 'chav' stereotype, yet other such prejudices that are applied on a scale outside reasonable evidential and logical boundaries (for comedic purposes or otherwise) are not tolerated.
Can you give me an example? I can't think of one so I don't quite get what you mean.

[Martin_Bashir]

It is a choice based on lifestyle and other factors. No different than any other race. Can application and choice of culture be measured accurately?

well the concept of the Double hermenutic (http://csc.sagepub.com/cgi/content/short/4/1/28) woudl suggest not.

Then if thats true how can you be sure it is a choice? What constitutes the idea of choice?

For example; in an election in which intimidation is being practiced; the choice to vote against the agressor still exists, however if there is a likely hood of social exclusion or persecution, which one would many choose?

Same with culture, if you are growning up in an area in which the dominant culture has certain traits and behaviour associated with it, and that rejection or non adoption of these factors is hazardous, how far is that reasonable choice (could even be termed rational choice in some situations :confused:)

Then of course there is the question of personal feeling, and how deep conviction can juxtapose itself with accepted popular culture.

[Martin_Bashir]

Can you give me an example? I can't think of one so I don't quite get what you mean.

Kiezo claiming in this (http://vbulletin.thesite.org.uk/showthread.php?s=&threadid=72583&highlight=black+neds) thread that dizzie rascal was a twat because of the clothes he wore. This was a stupid arguement based upon an application of a scottish social phenominon to a london group who looked the same. Lets call it the 'Black Neds' incident.

Hellfire; here (http://vbulletin.thesite.org.uk/showthread.php?s=&threadid=72426&highlight=chav) based upon one unfortunate incident, suddenly he has not a few, but hundreds to blame for this!

Is this any different from me being cut up on the road by asian man and then suddenly 'Bloody pakis think they own the road?'.

This is what im getting at; people are applying their experience and prejudices on a frightening scale and not being picked up on it.

[Kentish]

Originally posted by Martin_Bashir
Kiezo claiming in this (http://vbulletin.thesite.org.uk/showthread.php?s=&threadid=72583&highlight=black+neds) thread that dizzie rascal was a twat because of the clothes he wore. This was a stupid arguement based upon an application of a scottish social phenominon to a london group who looked the same. Lets call it the 'Black Neds' incident.

Hellfire; here (http://vbulletin.thesite.org.uk/showthread.php?s=&threadid=72426&highlight=chav) based upon one unfortunate incident, suddenly he has not a few, but hundreds to blame for this!

Is this any different from me being cut up on the road by asian man and then suddenly 'Bloody pakis think they own the road?'.

This is what im getting at; people are applying their experience and prejudices on a frightening scale and not being picked up on it.
I meant an example of another prejudice that is equivalent and not condemned.

If people did say that about drivers of Asian descent then they would be condemned because it is racist. One could argue that "chavs" choose to dress and act in a certain way so prejudice against them isn't the same as racism. It's still not nice though, I accept.

[Blagsta]

Yeah but judging someone on the clothes they choose to wear is ridiculous. I know people who dress in the "chav" style and have for years. Yet they're not violent anti-social twats. Some of 'em are very politically active anti-fascists.

[Makoto]

You mean chavscum.co.uk ;),

Natfront website is my home page.

[Spliffie]

Originally posted by Martin_Bashir
i'll want to know why a simlilarly prejudicial site isnt being taken down; ChavScum.com

The reason im doing this is because racism is often based upon ill informed opinions which have their roots in labelling a certain group which is then stratified upon the basis of physical appearance.

Same with ChavScum.

Why tolerate one prejudice but not another :mad: :confused:

Oh come on FFS, liven up :rolleyes: .

You make me genuinely worried.

[Martin_Bashir]

Oh come on FFS, liven up

no im afraid not on this one. When its acceptable to do the same to any other social group then fine, not til then

[Disillusioned]

I see nothing at all wrong with ChavScum.

[Blagsta]

There's a surprise. :rolleyes:

[Martin_Bashir]

I meant an example of another prejudice that is equivalent and not condemned.

Thats the point mate, there arent too many so why tolerate this one?

racism is simply a model of sight based prejudice that has been laced with all kinds of eroneous biological and other connotations to create a racially prejudiced paradigm.

Its just that it has been applied in different ways and on a differing scale that is the practical difference.

[Kentish]

Originally posted by Martin_Bashir
Thats the point mate, there arent too many so why tolerate this one?

racism is simply a model of sight based prejudice that has been laced with all kinds of eroneous biological and other connotations to create a racially prejudiced paradigm.

Its just that it has been applied in different ways and on a differing scale that is the practical difference.
I understand what you're saying but as I was trying to say before, I think chav prejudice is just instinctive suspicion of something that is different. I see the points about mockery of chavs somehow being a class issue, but I don't buy it. Chavicity is a choice, which is why it is not comparable with race.

[Martin_Bashir]

I think chav prejudice is just instinctive suspicion of something that is different

And alot of racism is what then?

Chavicity (new word :D) is not simply a choice but a product of complex socialisation processes, which at different points may involve elements of rational choice.

Cultural bias IS a part of alot of racist thinking, and alot of cultures and subcultures are constructed in the same way.

My comparison is the way in which racist meanings are constructed by the observer, with those of the 'chav'.

[Toadborg]

Martin Bashir: very good points, well made, making people confront their own prejudices is always one of the most wothwhile lines of argument...........

[Disillusioned]

Originally posted by Blagsta
There's a surprise. :rolleyes:

There’s nothing wrong with taking the piss out of chavs.

I would find it pretty sick if somebody tried to suggest that being a bit ‘anti-chav’ is as bad as racism or homophobia.

Chavscum makes massive generalisations but it’s generally humorous and anybody that lives in the real world would realise how true a lot of it is.

There’s plenty of chavs at my school, funnily most of them are spoilt middle class kids and they happily all happily embrace many aspects of black culture yet then come out with some of the most racist things...

I wonder what percentage of BNP votes comes from ‘chav’ minded people?

Regardless, chavscum is simply someone making use of their right to freedom of speech. They’re not inciting hatred against any particular ethnic group, they’re breaking no laws.

How the PC brigade never fail to amaze.

[Martin_Bashir]

How the PC brigade never fail to amaze.

oh im not saying that it isnt funny, astute or humourous and that we cant look at it in isolation as humor and then try to discard our prejudices in the real world.

What im saying is that this particular prejudice is accepted into the realm of humour whereas others arent and i dont see the cognitive or ideational difference

[Disillusioned]

Originally posted by Martin_Bashir
im saying is that this particular prejudice is accepted into the realm of humour whereas others arent and i dont see the cognitive or ideational difference

Hmm it depends.

There’s plenty of comedy that is not racist yet makes humour of certain groups, stereotypes and situations.

Ali G? Goodness Gracious Me?

[Blagsta]

Originally posted by Disillusioned
There’s nothing wrong with taking the piss out of chavs.

I would find it pretty sick if somebody tried to suggest that being a bit ‘anti-chav’ is as bad as racism or homophobia.

I agree there.

Originally posted by Disillusioned
Chavscum makes massive generalisations but it’s generally humorous and anybody that lives in the real world would realise how true a lot of it is.

If you look at the rhetoric used, its not humorous. There's an underlying viciousness there. Phrases like "sub-human scum" etc.

Originally posted by Disillusioned
There’s plenty of chavs at my school, funnily most of them are spoilt middle class kids and they happily all happily embrace many aspects of black culture yet then come out with some of the most racist things...

So?

Originally posted by Disillusioned
I wonder what percentage of BNP votes comes from ‘chav’ minded people?

I dunno. You tell me.

Originally posted by Disillusioned
Regardless, chavscum is simply someone making use of their right to freedom of speech. They’re not inciting hatred against any particular ethnic group, they’re breaking no laws.

True.

Originally posted by Disillusioned
How the PC brigade never fail to amaze.

Who are "the PC brigade"? Are they like the Angry Brigade?

[Disillusioned]

True Blagsta, the tone of some of the stuff on ChavScum is a bit over the top in places. I just don’t really find any of it that offensive. If groups of people went out chav-bashing or something like that I’d probably buy into the claims made against ChavScum more. But, for now I’m unable to see it like that as it’s not possible to view Chavism as a race, religion or sexuality…

[Martin_Bashir]

But, for now I’m unable to see it like that as it’s not possible to view Chavism as a race, religion or sexuality…

im not asking you to, im asking you to recognise that this site contains sentiments which could be construed as prejudiced and offensive, directed at a clearly defined social group primarily identified through appearance

[Blagsta]

Originally posted by Disillusioned
True Blagsta, the tone of some of the stuff on ChavScum is a bit over the top in places. I just don’t really find any of it that offensive. If groups of people went out chav-bashing or something like that I’d probably buy into the claims made against ChavScum more. But, for now I’m unable to see it like that as it’s not possible to view Chavism as a race, religion or sexuality…

My main problem with it is
(a) its stereotyping
and
(b) there's a lot of vicious rhetoric used against the working class and underclass.

[Disillusioned]

Originally posted by Blagsta
there's a lot of vicious rhetoric used against the working class

I’d say the ‘vicious rhetoric’ is directed against chavs, not the working classes. And what exactly is working class now anyway? I know plenty of people who would identify themselves as working class but are certainly not chavs. Surely being working class and acting like a chav are two totally separate things?

You are right, it does stereotype against a particular ‘social group’.

But there are stereotypes against every group in society. There are stereotypical perceptions of the middle classes, the upper classes, etc. There are stereotypical opinions of people of particular nationalities – the French, the Germans, the Irish, the Americans. Of course I suppose the difference is those stereotypes disappear when people actually visit say France or meet somebody French…whereas a lot of people seem to strongly identify with the stereotypes of chavs…

[Namaste]

Originally posted by Martin_Bashir
Why tolerate one prejudice but not another :mad: :confused:

Selective compassion. In an ideal world we'd all be able to be who we wanted without discrimination... You wouldn't get shit for being fat, black, gay, in to rock music, middle class... You'd just be you.

But selective compassion is all we have so far...

[Globe]

Originally posted by Blagsta
My main problem with it is
(a) its stereotyping
and
(b) there's a lot of vicious rhetoric used against the working class and underclass.

And this differs from the "white trailer park trash" repeatedly directed my way, exactly, how?

Originally posted by Martin_Bashir
im asking you to recognise that this site contains sentiments which could be construed as prejudiced and offensive

Ain't nuthin' new...

[Blagsta]

Originally posted by Globe
And this differs from the "white trailer park trash" repeatedly directed my way, exactly, how?

Have I ever said that about you?

[Martin_Bashir]

Ain't nuthin' new...

ok...what does this have to do with the topic? :confused:

[Kentish]

Originally posted by Martin_Bashir
ok...what does this have to do with the topic? :confused:
I assume he means that because prejudice is inevitably all around us, why single out chavs?

[Martin_Bashir]

I assume he means that because prejudice is inevitably all around us, why single out chavs?

well that would nullify every anit-prejudicial movement ever, in such a world :confused:

[Kentish]

Originally posted by Martin_Bashir
well that would nullify every anit-prejudicial movement ever, in such a world :confused:
Possibly, but then there is a difference between an instinctive prejudice and discrimination/racism/hatred etc., the former being inevitable, the latter unacceptable.

[Martin_Bashir]

instinctive prejudice

yeah, and that opens another avenue to looking at the overlap between what can be considered instinctive and volentary.