Euthanasia......again

[BeckyBoo]

Story HERE (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/southern_counties/4034455.stm)

Here we have a man who is terminally ill, he has been told he has up to 12 weeks to live after bladder cancer spread to his lungs, kidneys and abdomen.

He wants the law changed so terminally ill people can choose when to die and have a pain free death.

What are your views on this story ?

[morrocan roll]

Originally posted by BeckyBoo
Story HERE (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/southern_counties/4034455.stm)

Here we have a man who is terminally ill, he has been told he has up to 12 weeks to live after bladder cancer spread to his lungs, kidneys and abdomen.

He wants the law changed so terminally ill people can choose when to die and have a pain free death.

What are your views on this story ? if i ever end up wanting to make that decision for myself i will and all who know me will make the phone call for me ...buy me the heroin and supply the syringe.
then ...after a few farewells i'll be hitting up and shuffling off this mortal coil.
but ...as for law changes i realy canna make me mind up.

[MrG]

while it could be potentially exploited by malicious people, on the merits of goodness i think the law should be changed

on another note the subject title did make me wonder
"euthanasia......again"

as far as i was aware it could only happen once

[morrocan roll]

Originally posted by MrG

as far as i was aware it could only happen once awkward sod!

[BeckyBoo]

Originally posted by MrG
on another note the subject title did make me wonder
"euthanasia......again"

Sorry, its just i had a similar thread a while back, so thought euthanasia......again as an apt title :)

My views are if someone is terminally ill like this man then just please let him die in peace. Dont let him have to suffer pain, if he wants to die and he is of sound mind then let him die free from pain......its his life, his choice, its what he wants and its what id want if I was in the same boat.

[MrG]

Originally posted by BeckyBoo
Sorry, its just i had a similar thread a while back, so thought euthanasia......again as an apt title :)

My views are if someone is terminally ill like this man then just please let him die in peace. Dont let him have to suffer pain, if he wants to die and he is of sound mind then let him die free from pain......its his life, his choice, its what he wants and its what id want if I was in the same boat.

/me hugs becky

i agree with you

[Kentish]

Originally posted by morrocan roll
if i ever end up wanting to make that decision for myself i will and all who know me will make the phone call for me ...buy me the heroin and supply the syringe.
then ...after a few farewells i'll be hitting up and shuffling off this mortal coil.
but ...as for law changes i realy canna make me mind up.
That's all very well, but this guy probably has all the morphine he wants - plenty to finish him off. You come to realise when you look into euthanasia that it is not so much the relief from pain and suffering that people are seeking, but the passing on of the responsibility to someone else. Suicide is not illegal, but euthanasia is somehow more justifiable.

[morrocan roll]

Originally posted by Kentish
That's all very well, but this guy probably has all the morphine he wants - plenty to finish him off. You come to realise when you look into euthanasia that it is not so much the relief from pain and suffering that people are seeking, but the passing on of the responsibility to someone else. Suicide is not illegal, but euthanasia is somehow more justifiable. the thing with the morphine is they will deprive him of the chance of getting enough to finnish it ...with me ...i'd have no problem getting enough heroin to leave all the pain behind ...and i'd be doing it myself.

[Kentish]

Originally posted by morrocan roll
the thing with the morphine is they will deprive him of the chance of getting enough to finnish it ...with me ...i'd have no problem getting enough heroin to leave all the pain behind ...and i'd be doing it myself.
Not in my experience.

I'm generally anti-euthanasia and ambivalent of suicide, and I'm anti-euthanasia partly because I personally want no part in taking someone else's life.

[morrocan roll]

Originally posted by Kentish
Not in my experience.

I'm generally anti-euthanasia and ambivalent of suicide, and I'm anti-euthanasia partly because I personally want no part in taking someone else's life. easy to say ...have you ever seen anyone dslowly dying in absolute agony?
how much pain could you cope with cos i'm afraid the drugs don't always work for long.
i'd go ...cos i don't like pain and i couldn't bare to see the people around me feeling so helpless.
one injection of heroin it would be over in a couple of minutes.

[Yerascrote]

i supposee i've had this idea that euthanasia is bad idea driven into me since i was a kid so i'm more inclined in letting a person live the course of their life, so their fate or destiny can be fufilled, however i can definately see where pro-euthanasia people are coming from and sometimes would be more inclined their way, depends what my mood is.

[Kentish]

Originally posted by morrocan roll
easy to say ...have you ever seen anyone dslowly dying in absolute agony?
how much pain could you cope with cos i'm afraid the drugs don't always work for long.
i'd go ...cos i don't like pain and i couldn't bare to see the people around me feeling so helpless.
one injection of heroin it would be over in a couple of minutes.
Not first hand, but yes I've seen patients at the end of life. Like I say, I wouldn't ever want to be asked to inject a lethal dose, but people are entitled to take their own lives.

Progress in palliative care will only continue so long as people are able to live out their natural lives without the pressure of euthanasia hanging over them. Not many people die in unbearable pain nowadays.

[Kentish]

Originally posted by turlough
depends what my mood is.
That's the problem. Lord Joffe's bill going through the committee stages at Parliament would make "living wills" legally binding - but the thing is people often change their minds about what treatment they would agree to when their circumstances change. I know of several terminally ill patients who had made living wills declining all "active medical treatment" who, when asked, were willing to undergo invasive investigations of symptoms that were reducing their quality of life but not actually killing them.

Point being, people change and it's easy to say that euthanasia is the answer when it's someone else in that position, but a lot of terminally ill people aren't asking for an artificial death, just pain and symptom relief in their final days.

[morrocan roll]

Originally posted by Kentish
Not many people die in unbearable pain nowadays. i'm afraid they do! thats why this question is forever coming back.

[BeckyBoo]

Originally posted by Kentish


Point being, people change and it's easy to say that euthanasia is the answer when it's someone else in that position, but a lot of terminally ill people aren't asking for an artificial death, just pain and symptom relief in their final days.

but they dont wanna be doped up so they aint got a clue where they are.

If I was in this position of having 12 weeks to live and we KNOW that id deteriate rapidly then just give me enough to put me out of my misery.

[Kentish]

Originally posted by morrocan roll
i'm afraid they do! thats why this question is forever coming back.
Depends how you define unbearable I suppose and how much pain we expect in death. Whoever said death was pleasant? Palliative care will only improve if there is a demand for it, and that includes painkillers and other forms of symptom relief.

[Kentish]

Originally posted by BeckyBoo
but they dont wanna be doped up so they aint got a clue where they are.
That's simply not accurate.
If I was in this position of having 12 weeks to live and we KNOW that id deteriate rapidly then just give me enough to put me out of my misery.
Fine, take it all, but don't force me to do it for you...

[morrocan roll]

Originally posted by Kentish
Depends how you define unbearable I suppose and how much pain we expect in death. Whoever said death was pleasant? Palliative care will only improve if there is a demand for it, and that includes painkillers and other forms of symptom relief. there are oce strong and able bodied and proud people dying in agony right now along with awful sickness and crapping themselves etc ...for some ...the sickness is worse than the pain. they only have months or weeks left and realy cannot cope being reduced to this. i'm talking people of all ages here.

[Fiend_85]

Originally posted by Kentish
That's simply not accurate.

Fine, take it all, but don't force me to do it for you...


Herein lies the problem. If doctors won't do it, ie won't administer a lethal overdose, then who is qualified?

[morrocan roll]

Originally posted by Fiend_85
Herein lies the problem. If doctors won't do it, ie won't administer a lethal overdose, then who is qualified? in my own case it would be me ...will be me if i'm ever in that position.

[Fiend_85]

and if you are not physically capable?

[Yerascrote]

Originally posted by Fiend_85
Herein lies the problem. If doctors won't do it, ie won't administer a lethal overdose, then who is qualified?

jaysus it's not that hard to kill someone. just get someone else to do it and get a medical doctor to supervise.

[Kentish]

Originally posted by morrocan roll
there are oce strong and able bodied and proud people dying in agony right now along with awful sickness and crapping themselves etc ...for some ...the sickness is worse than the pain. they only have months or weeks left and realy cannot cope being reduced to this. i'm talking people of all ages here.
I know that. And their care will only improve if it is allowed to exist. At what point does someone decide that they want to die? A lot of people have been in extraordinary pain which has passed with successful treatment and I believe terminally ill patients have the right to symptom relief without resorting to death.

Would be start offering euthanasia those who suffer with Alzheimer's disease or other forms of dementia. Or those with disabilities that cause them constant pain, or depression that causes them to be housebound?

We as a society have become sanitised to death and suffering, which are part and parcel of life.

[morrocan roll]

Originally posted by Fiend_85
and if you are not physically capable? i hadn't thought about that!

[morrocan roll]

Originally posted by Kentish
I know that. And their care will only improve if it is allowed to exist. At what point does someone decide that they want to die? A lot of people have been in extraordinary pain which has passed with successful treatment and I believe terminally ill patients have the right to symptom relief without resorting to death.

Would be start offering euthanasia those who suffer with Alzheimer's disease or other forms of dementia. Or those with disabilities that cause them constant pain, or depression that causes them to be housebound?

We as a society have become sanitised to death and suffering, which are part and parcel of life. i did say at the begining that i wasn't sure about it ...
for some people kent there aren't any improvements to their pain relief or other care available.

[BeckyBoo]

Originally posted by Kentish
That's simply not accurate.



Well how does it work then ?

[Kentish]

Originally posted by Fiend_85
Herein lies the problem. If doctors won't do it, ie won't administer a lethal overdose, then who is qualified?
Some doctors would. Shipman probably wouldn't have objected. ;)

[BeckyBoo]

Originally posted by Kentish
A lot of people have been in extraordinary pain which has passed with successful treatment and I believe terminally ill patients have the right to symptom relief without resorting to death.



What if they only have a matter of weeks, days ?

[Kentish]

Originally posted by morrocan roll
i did say at the begining that i wasn't sure about it ...
for some people kent there aren't any improvements to their pain relief or other care available.
I agree, but we will only improve our care of them if palliative care exists in the first place. With good care these days, pain really shouldn't be unbearable, but death is unpleasant even when hurried by euthanasia.

[Kentish]

Originally posted by BeckyBoo
What if they only have a matter of weeks, days ?
No, my point was that we offer pain relief to those who have acute pain, and terminally ill patients are entitled to the same standard of care.

[BeckyBoo]

So just supposing I have a terminal illness and I am in pain, we know I will die within lets say 12 weeks.........how would I be treated ? Would I be in any discomfort ? Would I be totally aware of what was going on around me ?

You see when my Dad was ill he didnt know where he was and even though he had pain releif he was still in pain. (he is better now though he was just very poorly)

[Kentish]

I couldn't possibly answer that - it would depend on so many things. And the point is we wouldn't know that you only had 12 weeks left to live...it is never a precise science until it's the last few hours really.

Having said that, you would almost certainly be offered treatment at a hospice by a specialist in palliative care and they would treat as many or as few of your symptoms as you wanted.

[BeckyBoo]

correct me if im wrong, but if im in pain they will surely dope me up with whatever so i cant feel pain, which would mean I wouldnt have a clue what day it was etc.

[Kentish]

The two don't necessarily go hand in hand. You can have adequate pain relief and still know what day it is.

Again, if you really couldn't cope, no one is stopping you taking your own life but I struggle to comprehend the assumption that the decision to end your life is validated if someone else is allowed to do it for you.

[girl with sharp teeth]

.

[Fiend_85]

Suicide and Euthanasia are different things, different states of mind so what's true for one isn't always true for another.

[girl with sharp teeth]

.

[Olive]

Originally posted by morrocan roll
easy to say ...have you ever seen anyone dslowly dying in absolute agony?


i have, and it's fucking horrible. especially if it's someone you love.

i'm all for euthanasia in those circumstances. i don't see it as any different than switching off life support machines, or stopping treatment.

if they are going to die anyway, and there's a good chance it's going to be a horribly traumatic, painful, drawn-out death, then it's not murder, it's helping them to die with dignity. it's what i'd want.

[Fiend_85]

Originally posted by kaffrin
i have, and it's fucking horrible. especially if it's someone you love.

i'm all for euthanasia in those circumstances. i don't see it as any different than switching off life support machines, or stopping treatment.

if they are going to die anyway, and there's a good chance it's going to be a horribly traumatic, painful, drawn-out death, then it's not murder, it's helping them to die with dignity. it's what i'd want.

Yup, that's what it's like. Except turning off the machines is worse, because then they slowly suffocate to death, instead of lethal injection, like the stuff they use over in the states.

[Aladdin]

At the end of the day it's a personal choice. And if the person has stated that they wish to die, then they should be allowed to die with dignity instead of "living" their last few weeks in agony and misery.

I understand with those who have concerns about the possibility of abuses regarding euthanasia. Every provision must be in place to ensure no lives are terminated where the patient might not have given his full consent (i.e. very old people). But in general principle euthanasia should be legalised, without a doubt.

Few people piss me off more in life than those who campaign for euthanasia to remain illegal for all of us based on their beliefs and "morals". :mad:

[girl with sharp teeth]

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[Aladdin]

Well I think it would be fair that only doctors who want to carry out an euthanasia are made to do it.

Though to be honest it would be possible for relatives of the person in question to do it... and in many cases for the person themselves. They just need to be provided with the necessary equipment/drugs needed, without the person who provided them being prosecuted for anything.

[girl with sharp teeth]

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[Aladdin]

I'm not sure if I could. Then again, if I saw a loved one in terminal, agonising pain, or paralysed for life from the neck down and bed-ridden for the rest of their life and they wanted to be allowed to die, I'd probably help them if no-one else did.

Incidentally, and this is the world's worst kept secret, doctors around countless countries around the world have been practising a form of euthanasia for years- namely the injection of a very large dose of morphine on very terminal patients (those who have days left at most). And thank god for such people.

[Kentish]

Originally posted by Aladdin
in many cases for the person themselves. They just need to be provided with the necessary equipment/drugs needed, without the person who provided them being prosecuted for anything.
That is the situation at the moment, but somehow euthanasia justifies the decision. That was my point.