drug compANIES TO PULL OUT?

[morrocan roll]

only caught a bit on radio ...thousand of jobs to go ...drug companies and research companies threatening to pull out of uk if the government don't clamp down on animal rights crowd ...
anyone know any details?

[budda]

Basically the over all organisation which represents pharmacuitical companies in the UK has said that animal rights groups have made it very hard to do research here.

This is because of their actions against shareholders, people who supply the companies, people who are friends with people who work at the companies.

If you're got a problem you protest in legal ways, write to your MP, you get petitions together etc.

There is no excuse for physical violence. None.

[Clandestine]

Undoubtedly though, the gov will cave into the big money pressure rather than fire its own salvo back at these rampant profiteers by informing them that if they "pull out" they can kiss goodbye any market access into the UK for their products.

Its time these monolithic entities were smacked down and forced to face their obligations to serve the people from whom they have for so long profitted.

[JsT]

It's probably in response to last night's 'Tonight With Trevor McDonald' im which ITV inflitrated some mad murdering activists.

[morrocan roll]

Originally posted by bongbudda
Basically the over all organisation which represents pharmacuitical companies in the UK has said that animal rights groups have made it very hard to do research here.

This is because of their actions against shareholders, people who supply the companies, people who are friends with people who work at the companies.

If you're got a problem you protest in legal ways, write to your MP, you get petitions together etc.

There is no excuse for physical violence. None. thankyou bong i only got about thirty seconds of it as i was reversing into the gate post.
will the government be able to do very much about these animal terrorists?
it is said we are looking at loosing between eight and ten thousand jobs already for vermin foxes ...so now a whole set of industries may be driven out of the country by the same people ...

[Kermit]

Originally posted by Clandestine
Its time these monolithic entities were smacked down and forced to face their obligations to serve the people from whom they have for so long profitted.

A bit unfair on the pharm companies, I feel.

PETA don't represent me, they don't represent the "people". They are terrorist vermin: if they feel that testing new and dangerous drugs on animals is so bad, test them on PETA terrorists instead.

The pharm companies are right. PETA terrorists need to be getting twenty years in jail, and not any old jail either, that horrible random converted ship near Poole.

[freethepeeps]

Originally posted by bongbudda
If you're got a problem you protest in legal ways, write to your MP, you get petitions together etc.


Thank goodness the Sufragettes didn't follow this advice......

:eek2:

[Kermit]

Originally posted by freethepeeps
Thank goodness the Sufragettes didn't follow this advice......

:eek2:

Comparing the suffragettes to PETA.

You really are a dunce.

[freethepeeps]

Originally posted by Kermit
PETA don't represent me, they don't represent the "people". They are terrorist vermin: if they feel that testing new and dangerous drugs on animals is so bad, test them on PETA terrorists instead.


Well, someones got to stand up for the right to torture beagles, bunnies and their friends......

:yes:

[freethepeeps]

Originally posted by Kermit
Comparing the suffragettes to PETA.

You really are a dunce.

Erm - read the post again and erm, you take the dunces cap

okey dokey

:eek2:

[eternalsunshine]

Kill the animals...Kill the animals!

That's what I reckon :confused:

[morrocan roll]

Originally posted by freethepeeps
Well, someones got to stand up for the right to torture beagles, bunnies and their friends......

:yes: so these dumb creatures will all be left to get on with their muddy little lives while thousands of people end up on the dole ...unable to pay the rent/mortgage?
this is 21st century progress ...

[freethepeeps]

Originally posted by eternalsunshine
Kill the animals...Kill the animals!

That's what I reckon :confused:

Are you a member of a hunt or something

:confused:

[freethepeeps]

Originally posted by morrocan roll
so these dumb creatures will all be left to get on with their muddy little lives while thousands of people end up on the dole ...unable to pay the rent/mortgage?
this is 21st century progress ...

Oh dear.....

[morrocan roll]

Originally posted by freethepeeps
Oh dear..... what were you saying about certain standard replies only last night?

[freethepeeps]

Originally posted by morrocan roll
what were you saying about certain standard replies only last night?

Oh dear .......

[eternalsunshine]

Originally posted by freethepeeps
Are you a member of a hunt or something

:confused: Yeah...I hunt non-conformists

It's just a hobby like

[budda]

Originally posted by freethepeeps
Well, someones got to stand up for the right to torture beagles, bunnies and their friends......

:yes:

Do you want to suggest a better alternative.

Moving the jobs out of the UK will make NO impact on testing what so ever, it will just move it somewhere else, somewhere with less controls than here.

So, in terms of animal welfare its better testing is done here where it can be regulated than elsewhere.

[morrocan roll]

i pressume you two have teamed up again ...
you realy are pathetic.

[budda]

I completely stand by my quote freethepeeps.

[eternalsunshine]

Originally posted by morrocan roll
so these dumb creatures will all be left to get on with their muddy little lives while thousands of people end up on the dole ...unable to pay the rent/mortgage?
this is 21st century progress ...

The making of a 'socialist' methinks :D

[eternalsunshine]

Or 'anarchist'...who knows :)

[MrG]

Originally posted by eternalsunshine
Or 'anarchist'...who knows :)

or in your case arrogant arsewipe

[morrocan roll]

thank god i'm off to the pub soon.
you are seriously pissing me off sunshine ...which of course is your aim.
well done.
you truly are a fucking annoying waste of space.

[freethepeeps]

Originally posted by morrocan roll
i pressume you two have teamed up again ...
you realy are pathetic.

Oh me, oh my ........

Originally posted by morrocan roll
i think i was in a long queue of people and i was by no means at the front.

You wanna learn some bleeding consistency m8........

[freethepeeps]

Originally posted by bongbudda
I completely stand by my quote freethepeeps.

Excellent, I like having it in my signature......

:D

[morrocan roll]

another thread turned into utter fucking drivel by you two ...so clever.

[freethepeeps]

Originally posted by MrG
or in your case arrogant arsewipe

http://home.iprimus.com.au/mikeanmika/images/product/barbie/barbie-handbag.jpg

[freethepeeps]

Originally posted by morrocan roll
another thread turned into utter fucking drivel by you two ...so clever.

Shall I play your posts back to you?

:confused:

[eternalsunshine]

Originally posted by bongbudda
Do you want to suggest a better alternative.

Moving the jobs out of the UK will make NO impact on testing what so ever, it will just move it somewhere else, somewhere with less controls than here.

So, in terms of animal welfare its better testing is done here where it can be regulated than elsewhere. So it's just a case of moving jobs from the UK to some other country then.

Is that the main priority?

[morrocan roll]

Originally posted by eternalsunshine
So it's just a case of moving jobs from the UK to some other country then.

Is that the main priority? would you prefer thousands of job losses here and animal torture to explode big time in some less regulated country?

[budda]

I'm of the same opinion about stem cell research, I'm not all that keen on it personally (though I can see the potential) but I do really want research to be done here.

The UK has by all accounts really good and tough regulations regarding research.

Its going to happen anyway so it might as well happen here.

[freethepeeps]

Originally posted by bongbudda
Do you want to suggest a better alternative.

Moving the jobs out of the UK will make NO impact on testing what so ever, it will just move it somewhere else, somewhere with less controls than here.

So, in terms of animal welfare its better testing is done here where it can be regulated than elsewhere.

The situation is this - a group of people feel very strongly that it is immoral to torture defenceless animals for some dubious medical and cosmetics experiments - they don't think that writing to their MPss or handing in a petition will make much difference, so they have decided to take direct action - by targetting the companies involved in the practices they abhor.

If they break the law, we have plenty of coppers who can go and arrest them and put them on trial for their actions, but to suggest that they have no right to take steps to put their beliefs into practice is to make a mockery of the very idea of democracy ......

and to say, oh well, we might as well torture dem bunnies, cos if we don't someone else will, is just not dealing with the central issue at all.

Are we going to allow everything that happens anywhere to happen here?

:confused:

[morrocan roll]

Originally posted by freethepeeps
The situation is this - a group of people feel very strongly that it is immoral to torture defenceless animals for some dubious medical and cosmetics experiments - they don't think that writing to their MPss or handing in a petition will make much difference, so they have decided to take direct action - by targetting the companies involved in the practices they abhor.

If they break the law, we have plenty of coppers who can go and arrest them and put them on trial for their actions, but to suggest that they have no right to take steps to put their beliefs into practice is to make a mockery of the very idea of democracy ......

and to say, oh well, we might as well torture dem bunnies, cos if we don't someone else will, is just not dealing with the central issue at all.

Are we going to allow everything that happens anywhere to happen here?

:confused: so bombing peoples houses ...attacking van drivers and their families is direct action?
i'd call it terrorism.
legitamate protest has bought into effect many regulations. more legitamate protest can bring in more controls and safeguards.
the anti terrorism legislation that we are so worried about might actualy be able to be put to good use on these people.

[budda]

Against my better judgement I will respond to your points.

Where did I say they had "no right" to take steps, I gave several ways, I just said that physical violence is un-acceptable as a form of protest.

As for cosmetic testing, well thats banned in the EU now anyway (or its soon to come into effect) so thats not an issue.

No, I'm not suggesting we allow everything that goes on elsewhere here. I'm suggesting we look at it reasonably on a case by case basis.

[freethepeeps]

Originally posted by bongbudda
Where did I say they had "no right" to take steps, I gave several ways, I just said that physical violence is un-acceptable as a form of protest.


What physical violence have they been using ?- I read "ordering goods maliciously" and "protesting outside peoples houses" ....

http://www.guardian.co.uk/animalrights/story/0,11917,1273275,00.html

[eternalsunshine]

So the point being...is it acceptable for us (being a civillised society) to torture animals?

[Clandestine]

more legitamate protest can bring in more controls and safeguards.

Do you mean in the same way that countless millions "legitimately" protesting the UK's involvement in an illegal war of aggression made the gov see the people's will and duly refrain from sending troops?
:rolleyes:

[budda]

Originally posted by eternalsunshine
So the point being...is it acceptable for us (being a civillised society) to torture animals?

Yes, I love it, I poke dogs in the eyes for fun.

[eternalsunshine]

Originally posted by bongbudda
Yes, I love it, I poke dogs in the eyes for fun. Yeah but we always knew that you were a wanker in anycase :D

Only kidding :)

[MrG]

Originally posted by freethepeeps
What physical violence have they been using ?- I read "ordering goods maliciously" and "protesting outside peoples houses" ....

http://www.guardian.co.uk/animalrights/story/0,11917,1273275,00.html

just sick
http://news.scotsman.com/latest.cfm?id=3742569


intimidation, violence, harassment
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/902751.stm

[eternalsunshine]

Yup it's nasty stuff right enough.

So why have so many experiments on animals?

[budda]

Originally posted by eternalsunshine
Yup it's nasty stuff right enough.

So why have so many experiments on animals?

Before you start a medical research experiment in this country you have to prove that you could not get the research any other way.

Yes, it is unpleasant, but its far from 'for fun', its serious work and does lead to massive advances in medical science which helps us all.

Would you rather a rat or a human die?

[freethepeeps]

Originally posted by MrG
just sick
http://news.scotsman.com/latest.cfm?id=3742569


intimidation, violence, harassment
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/902751.stm

Hmmm, lots of hype and very little fact ........

:p

[budda]

'You and Yours' on Radio Four has done an excellent collection of peices on animal rights protestors actually.

Heres one of their latest ones;

www.bbc.co.uk/radio4/youandyours/ram/youandyours_20041118_2.ram

[MrG]

Originally posted by freethepeeps
Hmmm, lots of hype and very little fact ........

:p

what you mean very little act, that womans body *WAS* graverobbed, and those acts of violence did and still continue to happen

[budda]

MrG, I think its best you know now before you bother wasting anymore effort.

Freethepeeps never has anything interesting or informative to say.

[MrG]

Originally posted by bongbudda
MrG, I think its best you know now before you bother wasting anymore effort.

Freethepeeps never has anything interesting or informative to say.

oh my god you just shattered my world, you bastard :P

[freethepeeps]

Originally posted by bongbudda
MrG, I think its best you know now before you bother wasting anymore effort.

Freethepeeps never has anything interesting or informative to say.

My dream in life is to be as scintillating, amusing and intelligent as crackjesus or whatever the fuck he's called........

:)

[SuzyCreamcheese]

Originally posted by freethepeeps
The situation is this - a group of people feel very strongly that it is immoral to torture defenceless animals for some dubious medical and cosmetics experiments - they don't think that writing to their MPss or handing in a petition will make much difference, so they have decided to take direct action - by targetting the companies involved in the practices they abhor.

If they break the law, we have plenty of coppers who can go and arrest them and put them on trial for their actions, but to suggest that they have no right to take steps to put their beliefs into practice is to make a mockery of the very idea of democracy ......

and to say, oh well, we might as well torture dem bunnies, cos if we don't someone else will, is just not dealing with the central issue at all.

Are we going to allow everything that happens anywhere to happen here?

:confused:
I have to say I agree with this completely.
I dont believe in how extreme the protesters acts are, and I dont think it does the cause any good at all, but there should be much more research into non animal alternatives. A lot of it is just absolutely barbaric.

[eternalsunshine]

Originally posted by bongbudda
Before you start a medical research experiment in this country you have to prove that you could not get the research any other way.

Yes, it is unpleasant, but its far from 'for fun', its serious work and does lead to massive advances in medical science which helps us all.

Would you rather a rat or a human die? Well the majority of experiments being carried out on animals just now have been done time and time again. There is no need for anyone else to replicate the findings of others. The problem here is that there are so many different 'foundations' fighting for the recognition for this or for that 'wonder' drug that they can all say...Hey...this is R&D and you better believe it pal.

It's total bullshit and we all know it is!

[Kentish]

Originally posted by rainbow brite
I have to say I agree with this completely.
I dont believe in how extreme the protesters acts are, and I dont think it does the cause any good at all, but there should be much more research into non animal alternatives. A lot of it is just absolutely barbaric.
You make it seem like these researchers mistreat animals for the fun of it. Whether we like it or not, if we want new and improved medicines animal testing is required. The Thalidomide disaster was the impetus for stricter controls on the pharmaceutical industry.

The protesters do themselves no favours by proving that they have no respect for [human] life. Legitimate protest isn't limited to writing to one's MP but it certainly cannot include physical attacks and generally violent acts.

A debate on the alternatives might be a constructive way forward, but it's easier to shout abuse at people isn't it.

Oh, and the suffragettes are incomparable. :rolleyes: for that.

[freethepeeps]

Originally posted by Kentish

The protesters do themselves no favours by proving that they have no respect for [human] life. Legitimate protest isn't limited to writing to one's MP but it certainly cannot include physical attacks and generally violent acts.

A debate on the alternatives might be a constructive way forward, but it's easier to shout abuse at people isn't it.

Oh, and the suffragettes are incomparable. :rolleyes: for that.

Firstly, exactly how many human lives have the animal rights protestors taken?

Secondly, you're erm, not exactly an expert of the suffragettes, are you?

:)

[Clandestine]

Dont be so quick to rest in the presumption that controls that arose in the 60's and 70's are still in force today Kentish. Go take a closer look at the systematic dismantling of regulatory controls especially on the pharma industry over the past 10 years (and more rapidly in the past 4) and youll find a very different and largely unrestrained and unaccountable corporate beast than you seem to buy into.

[morrocan roll]

i take it that some of you care more about the rats than the people who's jobs will go then.
valuable research and investment good bye ...for a few animals?

[Fiend_85]

Originally posted by bongbudda
Before you start a medical research experiment in this country you have to prove that you could not get the research any other way.

Yes, it is unpleasant, but its far from 'for fun', its serious work and does lead to massive advances in medical science which helps us all.

Would you rather a rat or a human die?

I vote rat. Especially seeing as repetition throws up new and interesting data each time as testing equipment becomes more and more sensitive.

[Kentish]

Originally posted by freethepeeps
Firstly, exactly how many human lives have the animal rights protestors taken?
You don't have to take a life to disrespect one.
Secondly, you're erm, not exactly an expert of the suffragettes, are you?

:)
Nor have I claimed to be. The point was that they made sacrifices of themselves, whereas "animal rights" protesters make sacrifices of others.

[Fiend_85]

Originally posted by Kentish
You don't have to take a life to disrespect one.


Nor can you equate an animal life to a human life.

[Kentish]

Originally posted by Clandestine
Dont be so quick to rest in the presumption that controls that arose in the 60's and 70's are still in force today Kentish. Go take a closer look at the systematic dismantling of regulatory controls especially on the pharma industry over the past 10 years (and more rapidly in the past 4) and youll find a very different and largely unrestrained and unaccountable corporate beast than you seem to buy into.
Whatever the more recent changes, it remains that drugs must be tested well enough to avoid repeat of the Thalidomide episode. Animal testing provides useful information about how drugs work, which is important if they are to be used to treat humans.

You imply that animal testing is unregulated and superfluous. Is that what you meant?

[freethepeeps]

Originally posted by Kentish
You don't have to take a life to disrespect one.

Nor, as it goes do you have to believe that accepting animal torture is the same as respect for human life.

[B]Nor have I claimed to be. The point was that they made sacrifices of themselves, whereas "animal rights" protesters make sacrifices of others.


it certainly cannot include physical attacks and generally violent acts.

Property damage and arson are not violent acts then?


:confused:

[Clandestine]

Stop looking at the micricosm of the issue MR and look at the longrunning ethos surrounding big pharma and other MNC sectors and their flippant presumption that they can use elected leaders against the will of the people, whatever that may be at any given moment, to obtain greater and greater latitude for their smug disregard for people and the wellbeing of society all in the name of neverending profit.

Pharma companies dont give a shit about your health or wellbeing. Your view seems to start from an assumption that even with animal testing they somehow do.

Just go look at how they managed to lobby the Bush admin in the past few years into essentially removing all product liability protections for any drug or vaccine they might wish to eventually release into the market. That despite the fact that flu vaccines themselves have been responsible for many many deaths in the US.

More often than not their "lengthy R&D testing" nowadays means a 3 week trial with all negative data duly shredded or purposely falsified to gain license approval for mass consumption.

You put your faith in the wrong people if you believe they care any more for you than they do for a labrat.

[Kentish]

Originally posted by Fiend_85
Nor can you equate an animal life to a human life.
I assume by that you mean that human life is more important. In which case you are supporting my view that by disrespecting human life, "animal rights" protesters do their cause no favours. The irony of their stance is clear for all to see...except them apparently.

[SuzyCreamcheese]

Originally posted by Kentish
You make it seem like these researchers mistreat animals for the fun of it. .
I dont think they do it for the fun of it necessarily, but the animals arent seen as living creatures capable of feeling pain or distress. They are treated as objects, used and abused. No respect whatsoever. I think that sometimes animal research is a necessary evil, but NOT on the scale that it actually happens. It would take some sadist to actually do those experiments.

[Kentish]

Originally posted by rainbow brite
It would take some sadist to actually do those experiments.
And I'm grateful to him because his work saves lives and relieves suffering every day.

[morrocan roll]

Originally posted by Clandestine
Stop looking at the micricosm of the issue MR and look at the longrunning ethos surrounding big pharma and other MNC sectors and their flippant presumption that they can use elected leaders against the will of the people, whatever that may be at any given moment, to obtain greater and greater latitude for their smug disregard for people and the wellbeing of society all in the name of neverending profit.

Pharma companies dont give a shit about your health or wellbeing. Your view seems to start from an assumption that even with animal testing they somehow do.

Just go look at how they managed to lobby the Bush admin in the past few years into essentially removing all product liability protections for any drug or vaccine they might wish to eventually release into the market. That despite the fact that flu vaccines themselves have been responsible for many many deaths in the US.

More often than not their "lengthy R&D testing" nowadays means a 3 week trial with all negative data duly shredded or purposely falsified to gain license approval for mass consumption.

You put your faith in the wrong people if you believe they care any more for you than they do for a labrat. i think your stating the obvious ...of course there in it for the money.
so are the thousands of people who's mortgages etc get paid.
and a little spin off on the side ...is we get some wonderful drugs and medicines!

[Kentish]

Originally posted by freethepeeps
Nor, as it goes do you have to believe that accepting animal torture is the same as respect for human life.
That's not what I said. And I think you know that.
Property damage and arson are not violent acts then?


:confused:
I'd call them violent acts. Maybe you disagree.

[Clandestine]

That isnt really true, Kentish. Just good groupthink PR sold to a gullible public despite many clear examples of just how effort is truly put into to verifying the safety and longterm effects of drugs in their rush to get them onto the market.

Your view is simply evidence of the efficacy of decades of entrenched PR and big advertising aimed at establishing a commonly accepted public ethos of trust.

[Clandestine]

is we get some wonderful drugs and medicines!

And more often than is widely reported we get countless deaths and other debilitating effects against which theses companies have duly shielded themselves from accountability and prosecution thanks to their willing political puppets.

[Fiend_85]

Originally posted by Clandestine
And more often than is widely reported we get countless deaths and other debilitating effects against which theses companies have duly shielded themselves from accountability and prosecution thanks to their willing political puppets.

And these things can be expected to happen. It's always a question of what we're willing to take for the greater good. Some people will ALWAYS have a bad reaction to a drug, and this can't be avoided, sometimes a mistake in the drug will cause death/debilitation. But it's whether the benefits significantly outweigh the down-side.

[SuzyCreamcheese]

Originally posted by morrocan roll
i think your stating the obvious ...of course there in it for the money.
so are the thousands of people who's mortgages etc get paid.
and a little spin off on the side ...is we get some wonderful drugs and medicines!
Ok so torturin g animals is a fantastic way for people to get employment, and medicine is just a lucky bonus????
I can appreciate you not caring particularly about anything other than your own species, but lives are surely worth more than a job.
More money needs to go into funding alternatives, but it aint gonna happen because animals are so cheap and easy to use, just turn off those emotions and ethics dont count when its saving the pharmaceutical companies money.

[Fiend_85]

Originally posted by rainbow brite
Ok so torturin g animals is a fantastic way for people to get employment, and medicine is just a lucky bonus????
I can appreciate you not caring particularly about anything other than your own species, but lives are surely worth more than a job.
More money needs to go into funding alternatives, but it aint gonna happen because animals are so cheap and easy to use, just turn off those emotions and ethics dont count when its saving the pharmaceutical companies money.

It's a little more than just a spin off really, it is the point, but they wouldn't do it if it wasn't worth money.

[Kentish]

Originally posted by Clandestine
That isnt really true, Kentish. Just good groupthink PR sold to a gullible public despite many clear examples of just how effort is truly put into to verifying the safety and longterm effects of drugs in their rush to get them onto the market.

Your view is simply evidence of the efficacy of decades of entrenched PR and big advertising aimed at establishing a commonly accepted public ethos of trust.
I'm not sure if you'd rather less animal testing or more :confused:

Do you have a point or is cynicism your only talent?

[SuzyCreamcheese]

Originally posted by Fiend_85
And these things can be expected to happen. It's always a question of what we're willing to take for the greater good. Some people will ALWAYS have a bad reaction to a drug, and this can't be avoided, sometimes a mistake in the drug will cause death/debilitation. But it's whether the benefits significantly outweigh the down-side.
Or in the case of thalidomide for example, it was deemed perfectly safe in all the animals it was tested on, yet caused such horrific defects in humans. It was nothing to do with some people reacting badly to a drug. Its to do with each animal reacting differently to different medicines, so its not even an accurate science.

[Fiend_85]

Originally posted by rainbow brite
Or in the case of thalidomide for example, it was deemed perfectly safe in all the animals it was tested on, yet caused such horrific defects in humans. It was nothing to do with some people reacting badly to a drug. Its to do with each animal reacting differently to different medicines, so its not even an accurate science.

So?

[Clandestine]

I'd rather more alternative testing and far longer testing periods required before any drug was allowed on the market.

[morrocan roll]

despite how evil our society is ...or because of ...you lot live the most comfortable lives ever. the best education health food entertainment etc ...all the past kings and princes of this earth could only wonder at your amazing lifestyles and all you fucking do is moan.
of course there is much that needs changing but the way some of you go on you'd think you were personaly hard done to.
clandestine ...your conscience surely should prevent you from working for who you do ...you are one of the supports in this evil democracy you never stop fucking moaning about.
you are one of the people who supports the bastards who are killing and robbing millions in the third world ...whilst fucking grumbling about it all ...except of course the money it brings in to you personaly.
you all take medications that have bbeen tested on animals ...you all purchase factory food and drive motors that pollute ...fine ...you all carry on fucking moaning but have some self respect ...don't purchase or rely on the products ...don't WORK AND DRAW YOUR CASH ...from a system you so loathe.

[Kentish]

Originally posted by rainbow brite
Or in the case of thalidomide for example, it was deemed perfectly safe in all the animals it was tested on, yet caused such horrific defects in humans. It was nothing to do with some people reacting badly to a drug. Its to do with each animal reacting differently to different medicines, so its not even an accurate science.
Actually, Thalidomide was approved because teratogenicity was not properly understood. The drug's effect on the foetus was found out through subsequent animal testing, but at the time animal tests were not thorough enough.

I agree with you that alternatives must be sought, and animal rights campaigners should lobby for them, but until a reliable alternative is available, animal testing will have to do.

[SuzyCreamcheese]

Originally posted by Fiend_85
It's a little more than just a spin off really, it is the point, but they wouldn't do it if it wasn't worth money.
Its not just medicines though, its cleaning detergents, cosmetics, psychological experiments. Lets today test again how much shampoo can be directly applied to a rabbits eye before it goes blind. Keeping rats in cages with electic currents running through the bars to test its reactions.
Experiments to test essential medicines are only part of it.

[eternalsunshine]

Originally posted by morrocan roll
i take it that some of you care more about the rats than the people who's jobs will go then.
valuable research and investment good bye ...for a few animals? Oh this old rat of an argument again I see.

Now what is it with you morrocan roll...animal lives for human jobs?

It's fucking pathetic...

Are you a Socialist morrocan?

[Kentish]

Originally posted by Clandestine
I'd rather more alternative testing and far longer testing periods required before any drug was allowed on the market.
Longer testing is all very well until you get an epidemic or your realise that bacteria adapt so quickly that drugs tested for long periods for safety are actually obsolete.

[SuzyCreamcheese]

Originally posted by morrocan roll
despite how evil our society is ...or because of ...you lot live the most comfortable lives ever. the best education health food entertainment etc ...all the past kings and princes of this earth could only wonder at your amazing lifestyles and all you fucking do is moan.
of course there is much that needs changing but the way some of you go on you'd think you were personaly hard done to.
clandestine ...your conscience surely should prevent you from working for who you do ...you are one of the supports in this evil democracy you never stop fucking moaning about.
you are one of the people who supports the bastards who are killing and robbing millions in the third world ...whilst fucking grumbling about it all ...except of course the money it brings in to you personaly.
you all take medications that have bbeen tested on animals ...you all purchase factory food and drive motors that pollute ...fine ...you all carry on fucking moaning but have some self respect ...don't purchase or rely on the products ...don't WORK AND DRAW YOUR CASH ...from a system you so loathe.
Its called damage Limitation Rolly.
I will go out of my way to use products that havent been tested on animals where possible and where available.

[morrocan roll]

Originally posted by eternalsunshine
Oh this old rat of an argument again I see.

Now what is it with you morrocan roll...animal lives for human jobs?

It's fucking pathetic...

Are you a Socialist morrocan? next time your eating your deep fried tortured factory chicken remember ... jobs before animal lives ...oh yes.
i have no political affiliation.
this afternoon i had a very political time ...downt pub.
a meeting of the fuel protesters ...three of us against about 50 of them ...us three? wanting fuel tax to remain high.
difficult to stand there face to face with mountain boys who want to bring your city to a standstill and cause panic at the supermarkets.

[SuzyCreamcheese]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by morrocan roll
[B]next time your eating your deep fried tortured factory chicken remember ...animal lives before jobs ...oh yes.[QUOTE]
i

I go out of my way to not buy factory farmed meat either, factory farming is barbaric too.

[morrocan roll]

Originally posted by rainbow brite
Its called damage Limitation Rolly.
I will go out of my way to use products that havent been tested on animals where possible and where available. but when it comes to the crunch and your little one is ill ...the mouse gets it right?

[eternalsunshine]

Originally posted by rainbow brite
Or in the case of thalidomide for example, it was deemed perfectly safe in all the animals it was tested on, yet caused such horrific defects in humans. It was nothing to do with some people reacting badly to a drug. Its to do with each animal reacting differently to different medicines, so its not even an accurate science. Fiend_85

So? Says it all really :)

[Clandestine]

your conscience surely should prevent you from working for who you do

Rolly, it sounds like youve either been hanging out with Thanatos for too long or else simply failing to recall the fact which ive repeatedly mentioned that i work for myself. I no longer work "for" the EU, I merely monitor its policies on behalf of clients (most of whom are NGO's in point of fact).

So please tone down your rant or get your facts straight. thanks.

(never thought he would find himself at loggerheads with Rolly of all people).

[eternalsunshine]

Originally posted by Kentish
Longer testing is all very well until you get an epidemic or your realise that bacteria adapt so quickly that drugs tested for long periods for safety are actually obsolete. ...and who told you that one Kentish

[morrocan roll]

Originally posted by Clandestine
Rolly, it sounds like youve either been hanging out with Thanatos for too long or else simply failing to recall the fact which ive repeatedly mentioned that i work for myself. I no longer work "for" the EU, I merely monitor its policies on behalf of clients (most of whom are NGO's in point of fact).

So please tone down your rant or get your facts straight. thanks.

(never thought he would find himself at loggerheads with Rolly of all people). i apologise ...i thought you were still at the heart of the machine.

[morrocan roll]

Originally posted by morrocan roll
i apologise ...i thought you were still at the heart of the machine. by the way ...i think i still disagree with everything globe says ...apart from the murder topic but ...i have great respect for the man he is.
he knows i disagree with his views ...especialy on bush and the illegality of the war.

[Clandestine]

Thanks, no harm done. Ive just had a very bad day.

[SuzyCreamcheese]

Originally posted by morrocan roll
but when it comes to the crunch and your little one is ill ...the mouse gets it right?
for essential medicine yes definitely. I dont see how I could make a difference tbh. I wish I did know.
For his /our non essential products its cruelty free as far as possible, and for food its damage limitation as I said before.

[SuzyCreamcheese]

and not everyone who agrees with animals having some basic rights not to be tortured and abused, is a militant firebombing nutter.
I just try and have a bit of respect for other creatures and am not arrogant enough to assume that humans are the only worthwhile creatures on the planet.

[MrG]

Originally posted by rainbow brite
and not everyone who agrees with animals having some basic rights not to be tortured and abused, is a militant firebombing nutter.
I just try and have a bit of respect for other creatures and am not arrogant enough to assume that humans are the only worthwhile creatures on the planet.

very true, but then again it is very difficult for the non educated to distinguish between thinking humans are not the only worthwhile beings on the planet, and not having the utmost respect for a human life

[morrocan roll]

Originally posted by rainbow brite
for essential medicine yes definitely. I dont see how I could make a difference tbh. I wish I did know.
For his /our non essential products its cruelty free as far as possible, and for food its damage limitation as I said before. good ...i know how difficult it is to actualy achieve.
i'm fortunate in that i have rebelled since childhood against a system i didn't always know but certainly suspected was rotten.
so here i am growing chickens and green things ...probably next year rabbits as well ...for meat of course. i might just be going into it comercialy as well.
i recycle ...i buy second hand ...i pass things on ...i'm hoping to produce electricity by the end of next summer ...so yes it does piss me off a bit when i hear city mass consumers and wasters spouting off ...and yes i do assume ...i also know that to assume is to make an ass of u and me before anyone throws it in.

[SuzyCreamcheese]

didnt think there was much commercial call for rabbit these days? unless youre breeding them for research (dont start)

[Kentish]

Originally posted by eternalsunshine
...and who told you that one Kentish
You disagree?

[morrocan roll]

Originally posted by rainbow brite
didnt think there was much commercial call for rabbit these days? unless youre breeding them for research (dont start) i would refuse to sell to such people to be honest ...
the market will ave to be created.
theres an american white that grows to around fifteen pounds in weight ...thats a lot of meat.
the countryside is growing ever more diverse after years of problems.
also cos more and more city people are moving in with money and ideas.
arts and crafts are booming.
blacksmiths shops are appearing and thriving all over the place. things are changing.
i have the space and the time and the comitment.
and a few quid to gamble.
others ...from the city ...are willing to put up a lot of dosh for all kinds of things rural at the moment ...if i can take a chunk of 'THEIR' money ...i will.
these people are convinced the market will be created ...by them.
who am i to argue when they want to part with quids?
i reckon i can breed around ten thousand rabbits a year ...at around a fiver a time in my pocket ...for very little effort ...i'd be mad not to take their shillings!

[morrocan roll]

by the way ...if you buy cheap you will notice on the label ...'and other meats.'
legally that covers horse kangaroo frog rabbit snail ...all manner of fish meal and animal entrails and skin.
so your already eating rabit anyway and so are your pets.

[eternalsunshine]

Originally posted by Kentish
You disagree? No. I asked you who told you this.

You seem to make assumptions all the time yet you never seem to offer any back up to those assumptions. I'm only asking you to back it up with some stats and research mate

You didn't just make it up did you?

[Clandestine]

I separate all my garvage too Rolly and recycle and even turn used batteries in for proper disposal so not all city dwellers are mass consuming goons. Some of us are just trying to eek out a meager existence as best we can before the whole craphouse crumbles.

Btw: Big market for rabbit meat in Belgium if youre interested.

[SuzyCreamcheese]

Originally posted by morrocan roll

so your already eating rabit anyway and so are your pets.
Im not. I dont buy shit food that doesnt specify what it is. Even my dogs food I pay extra for it to be decent stuff with no unspecified meats, artificial colourings or cheap fillers, as the cheap stuff gives her eczema.

[SuzyCreamcheese]

not that I wouldnt eat rabbit if I knew what to do with it.

[Fiend_85]

Originally posted by eternalsunshine
Says it all really :)

I think so...

[eternalsunshine]

Originally posted by Fiend_85
I think so... Why that is the nicest thing you've said to me in such a long time Fiend

I think I love you

[freethepeeps]

Originally posted by eternalsunshine
Why that is the nicest thing you've said to me in such a long time Fiend

I think I love you

Aaw, thats so sweet :D

[Kentish]

Originally posted by eternalsunshine
No. I asked you who told you this.

You seem to make assumptions all the time yet you never seem to offer any back up to those assumptions. I'm only asking you to back it up with some stats and research mate

You didn't just make it up did you?
If you're going to kick off again, I'll make this my last post.

But, an example of bacteria adapting quickly in response to existing drugs is MRSA. Methicillin resistant staphylococcus aureus was first seen in the 1970s, 30 years after the penicillins were first used. New drugs are being produced slower than the bacteria are adapting so lengthening the trial period would only make the situation worse. We currently have just a handful of antibiotics that can be used against MRSA. We need more pharmaceutical research, not less.

Am I making that up?

[eternalsunshine]

Originally posted by Kentish
If you're going to kick off again, I'll make this my last post.

But, an example of bacteria adapting quickly in response to existing drugs is MRSA. Methicillin resistant staphylococcus aureus was first seen in the 1970s, 30 years after the penicillins were first used. New drugs are being produced slower than the bacteria are adapting so lengthening the trial period would only make the situation worse. We currently have just a handful of antibiotics that can be used against MRSA. We need more pharmaceutical research, not less.

Am I making that up? Yeah and a hospital in South Devon reduced the rate of MRSA infections to zero after a 3 month trial....dya know why Kentish?

Fuck it...I'm going to tell you in any case. They doubled the cleaning staff...that's why

[Kentish]

Originally posted by eternalsunshine
Yeah and a hospital in South Devon reduced the rate of MRSA infections to zero after a 3 month trial....dya know why Kentish?

Fuck it...I'm going to tell you in any case. They doubled the cleaning staff...that's why
What's that got to do with anything? :confused:

[SuzyCreamcheese]

Originally posted by Kentish
What's that got to do with anything? :confused:
It means that reducing the risk of a lot of infections (MRSA in particular) is down to basic hygiene much more than it is to increasing medication, antibiotics and ultimately animal experiments.

[Kentish]

Originally posted by rainbow brite
It means that reducing the risk of a lot of infections (MRSA in particular) is down to basic hygiene much more than it is to increasing medication, antibiotics and ultimately animal experiments.
Yeah, I got that, but that's not an argument against animal testing it's common sense. Reducing MRSA rates isn't rocket science but more cleaning won't reduce the need for medicines generally.

[SuzyCreamcheese]

It was you who brought up the subject of mrsa kentish, I think he was just responding to that.
There is also the point to consider that we are relying far too much on bigger and better medicines. Obviously individual people want themselves and their nearest and dearest to live forever, but is all this for the greater good?

[Kentish]

I take the point but MRSA was just an example of the need for new and better drugs. MRSA will not be eradicated by cleaning alone, so the drugs are still needed.

As for the greater good, it goes back to whether you regard animal life and human life on the same level.

[SuzyCreamcheese]

Originally posted by Kentish
.

As for the greater good, it goes back to whether you regard animal life and human life on the same level.
No it doesnt at all. Nothing of the sort.
I value human life over animal life in general, but that doesnt mean I think humans a. have the right to use and abuse animals as and when they wish.
b. should be striving to live longer and longer at any cost. We already have an extremely low mortality rate in the west, and the west are the only ones really benefitting from these medicines and the rich west at that that.

[Kentish]

Originally posted by rainbow brite
We already have an extremely low mortality rate in the west
I calculate it to be about 100%...

"At any cost" is subjective. If you don't agree with animal testing avoid the products tested on animals. Most would rather have medical treatment than ban animal testing. It needs to be regulated and limited as much as is possible and safe, but I think animal testing is valid.

[SuzyCreamcheese]

Originally posted by Kentish
I calculate it to be about 100%...

"At any cost" is subjective. If you don't agree with animal testing avoid the products tested on animals. Most would rather have medical treatment than ban animal testing. It needs to be regulated and limited as much as is possible and safe, but I think animal testing is valid.
yeah yeah you knew what i meant. its getting late now.
I agree 100% with your statement. It needs to be regulated and limited as much as possible but it does have its uses.
At the moment unfortunatly it is used far too much and for pointless things. I think it should be completely banned for cosmetics testing.

[Kentish]

Agreed.

[freethepeeps]

The gullibility of people who believe that "if a corporation does it, it must be necessary" is touching ........

The very idea that human life can benefit (aside from jobs for carrying out the torture) from inflicting pain and suffering on another species, is, to say the least ........ misfuckingguided - the primary concern of the drug firms now, in the past and in the future is nothing remotely to do with improving the situation of mankind, but 110% to do with making profit for fatcat shareholders.

What works on a rat does not work on me, however much you torture the rat - we are not the same species.....

So, having dipped our toes into MRSA, which is to do with dirty hospitals run by money oriented trusts...... and can be better cured by cleaning hospitals than creating new drugs..... heres some of the SHAC (http://www.shac.net/SCIENCE/facts.html)arguments against animal testing:

1) Less than 2% of human illnesses (1.16%) are ever seen in animals. Over 98% never are.

2) At least 50 drugs on the market cause cancer in lab animals. They are allowed because it is admitted that animal tests are not relevant.

3) When asked if they agreed that animal experimentation can be misleading because of anatomical and physiological differences between animals and humans, 88% of doctors agreed

4) Rats are 37% effective in identifying what causes cancer in humans. Flipping a coin would be more accurate.

5) According to animal tests lemon juice is deadly poison, but arsenic, hemlock and botulin are safe.

6) 40% of patients suffer side effects as a result of prescription treatment.

7) Thousands of drugs passed safe in animals have been withdrawn or banned due to their effect on human health.

8) Aspirin fails animal tests, as do digitalis (heart drug), cancer treatments, insulin (causes animal birth defects), penicillin and other safe medicines. They would be banned if results from animal experimentation were accurate

9) When the producers of thalidomide were taken to court, they were aquitted after numerous experts agreed animal tests could not be relied on for human medicine.

10) At least 450 methods exist with which we can replace animal experiments.


And so on and on and on.........

Saying that tests are only allowed "if necessary" doesn't mean a thing if you have a framework which accepts continuously flawed and discredited test results as valid.

:eek:

[SuzyCreamcheese]

Thanks for that freethepeeps. very enlightening

[budda]

Rainbow Bright; Cosmetic testing on animals has been banned in the EU, or its coming in soon.

Plus there are moves to ban cosmetics tested on animals outside of the EU.

[morrocan roll]

Originally posted by rainbow brite
Thanks for that freethepeeps. very enlightening agreed!