The racist libel

[nckdn]

A number of people, including a monitor have labelled me racist after reading my posts on this board. I can see why, on the immigration poll, I questioned whether increased crime was one consequence of immigration and perhaps more damningly, on the US Arab thread I proposed that it was reasonable to discriminate between groups if all you knew was their group identity. Chances are most people who express those kinds of views are racist and are motivated by hate or fear. I'm not. I simply believe that different groups behave differently. You can draw the line wherever you want, age, gender, education, TV viewing habits or income, you'll get different behaviour, and sometimes you'll be able to predict it. On public transport pensioners behave differently, as a group, than do teenagers. We can all predict some of the differences and in sample after sample we'd be right. Another example, when offered the opportunity to watch porn Arab Muslim farmers and Atheist Yorkshire farmers would behave differently. Again we can predict the differences. I know this and I think we all do. It's not racist to believe that people from different groups behave differently, to really appreciate ethnic diversity it's essential. The most important diversity of all though is the diversity of opinion. My gran shouldn't be abused for preferring to sit with other pensioners, its not ageism, it's her right. It's my right whether or not I choose to watch porn with a group of farmers, it's also my right to express the viewpoint that there'd be more muslims than atheists among those of us not watching. It's a really nasty epithet to toss around, it tends to close down discussion rather than contribute to it, and when tossed in my direction it's really not warranted.

[Blagsta]

Believing that you know what a person is like based merely on their skin colour is racist.

[dolly dagger]

Originally posted by nckdn
I proposed that it was reasonable to discriminate between groups if all you knew was their group identity.

You know this makes me so sad :( we live in a world of fear, we are all scared of the "other" whatever that may be diff race, sex, language, and do you know what we do, we create stereotypes, a box for all these differences to fit into, so when we are faced with them, we feel safe, as we feel we understand them, they will act in the way we've been taught, and the worst thing is people play into the stereotypes that they are "supposed" to represent, then a cycle.

Their is no group identity, we are all individuals, yes their are similarities, but you can NEVER know someone just from the outside..

[Kermit]

Originally posted by dolly dagger
Their is no group identity

There is a group "identity", this can be proven in every sphere of human interaction.

But one cannot preidct individual behaviour using a group identity model. GWST slipped on some ice not very long ago, and everyone who you would deem "respectable" stepped over her- she was helped up by the most "bling" chav you'd ever meet.

Believing that you know what a person is like based on their sklin colour is racist.

Doing a poll where you have an option claiming that "immigrants...gang rape and murder" is incredibly racist.

It's only libel if it's not true, mate.

[wheresmyplacebo]

Originally posted by Kermit
There is a group "identity", this can be proven in every sphere of human interaction.

But one cannot preidct individual behaviour using a group identity model. GWST slipped on some ice not very long ago, and everyone who you would deem "respectable" stepped over her- she was helped up by the most "bling" chav you'd ever meet.

Believing that you know what a person is like based on their sklin colour is racist.

Doing a poll where you have an option claiming that "immigrants...gang rape and murder" is incredibly racist.

It's only libel if it's not true, mate.

am i the only one who thought he added that option just to cover the full spectrum of views????

like in my poll on if ud give up porn for gfs, id never say yes, but i put option in :lol:

[Kermit]

Originally posted by wheresmyplacebo
am i the only one who thought he added that option just to cover the full spectrum of views????

Yeah, but it illustrates his natural bias.

The most "positive" option is:

The immigrants are better people than the indigenous., which is quite blatantly faectious. And even if it is not, compare "better people" with "gangraping murderer".

He's a racist. He's a troll. I'm amazed Lord Jim of V didn't ban him in the first thread.

[morrocan roll]

Originally posted by nckdn
A number of people, including a monitor have labelled me racist after reading my posts on this board. I can see why, on the immigration poll, I questioned whether increased crime was one consequence of immigration and perhaps more damningly, on the US Arab thread I proposed that it was reasonable to discriminate between groups if all you knew was their group identity. Chances are most people who express those kinds of views are racist and are motivated by hate or fear. I'm not. I simply believe that different groups behave differently. You can draw the line wherever you want, age, gender, education, TV viewing habits or income, you'll get different behaviour, and sometimes you'll be able to predict it. On public transport pensioners behave differently, as a group, than do teenagers. We can all predict some of the differences and in sample after sample we'd be right. Another example, when offered the opportunity to watch porn Arab Muslim farmers and Atheist Yorkshire farmers would behave differently. Again we can predict the differences. I know this and I think we all do. It's not racist to believe that people from different groups behave differently, to really appreciate ethnic diversity it's essential. The most important diversity of all though is the diversity of opinion. My gran shouldn't be abused for preferring to sit with other pensioners, its not ageism, it's her right. It's my right whether or not I choose to watch porn with a group of farmers, it's also my right to express the viewpoint that there'd be more muslims than atheists among those of us not watching. It's a really nasty epithet to toss around, it tends to close down discussion rather than contribute to it, and when tossed in my direction it's really not warranted. you aint fooling me. i'm not sure this post will fool many others either.

[dolly dagger]

Originally posted by Kermit
There is a group "identity", this can be proven in every sphere of human interaction.


Give examples then.

[Fiend_85]

Originally posted by dolly dagger
Give examples then.

Black males are less academically able.

[morrocan roll]

n.c.k.d.n. ....trying to figure out what that could mean ...

[MrG]

Originally posted by Fiend_85
Black males are less academically able.

im sure i could find you a black male who is more intelligent than i am

[Aladdin]

Originally posted by morrocan roll
n.c.k.d.n. ....trying to figure out what that could mean ...

N***** Can Kill Day and Night? :rolleyes:

[freethepeeps]

Originally posted by morrocan roll
n.c.k.d.n. ....trying to figure out what that could mean ...

Quite by co-incidence I'm sure :rolleyes:, theres a Stormfront member with exactly the same name......

*sorry, not having Stormfront links, for whatever reason*

[freethepeeps]

Originally posted by Kermit
There is a group "identity", this can be proven in every sphere of human interaction.

Originally posted by dolly dagger
Give examples then.

Originally posted by Fiend_85
Black males are less academically able.

Hoo boy .................

:rolleyes:

[Fiend_85]

Originally posted by MrG
im sure i could find you a black male who is more intelligent than i am

it's statisically true. and therefore a group identity, we have already established that no individual exactly mirrors the group.

[MrG]

Originally posted by Fiend_85
it's statisically true. and therefore a group identity, we have already established that no individual exactly mirrors the group.

i was just backing up that point by offering an example that blew the average statistics out of the water with a hypothetic singular person/entity

[dolly dagger]

Originally posted by Fiend_85
it's statisically true. and therefore a group identity.

What sort of argument is that?
It's statistically true that England has the highest teen pregnancy rate in western Europe, so is that young people in England's group identity, pregnant?

It's statistically true that most convicted paedophiles are white males, is that their group identity then?

If group identities come from statistics, it is more bullshit than i thought.

[freethepeeps]

Originally posted by Fiend_85
it's statisically true. and therefore a group identity, we have already established that no individual exactly mirrors the group.

Well, my guess is that the statistics weren't compiled by black males.....

:cool:

[Fiend_85]

Originally posted by dolly dagger
What sort of argument is that?
It's statistically true that England has the highest teen pregnancy rate in western Europe, so is that young people in England's group identity, pregnant?

It's statistically true that most convicted paedophiles are white males, is that their group identity then?

Actually, most convicted paedophiles are women, so you need to check your statistics.

You wanted an example, I gave you one. How's 'women are safer drivers' for you?

[freethepeeps]

Originally posted by Fiend_85
Actually, most convicted paedophiles are women, so you need to check your statistics.

You wanted an example, I gave you one. How's 'women are safer drivers' for you?

Can we have a source for those statistics please?

:)

[dolly dagger]

Originally posted by Fiend_85
Actually, most convicted paedophiles are women, so you need to check your statistics.


Bullshit:

In the UK, most identified paedophiles are white adult men. Although women make up only a small percentage of offenders, a larger number knowingly or otherwise facilitate paedophile crimes by providing access to their children or overlooking abuse.

Check out this website, ok:
http://www.ncis.co.uk/ukta/2002/threat09.asp

I understand you were giving me examples, I was just trying to show how bullshit group identity is, yes, if you look on paper black males do less well at school in britain than other races, or women have less accidents but it's not as simple as that, group identity is so vague, that's why i don't like it.

And statistics lie, don't like them at all.

[Fiend_85]

Originally posted by freethepeeps
Can we have a source for those statistics please?

:)

study of 582 college men found that up to 78 percent of those abused as children had been abused by females. (Fromuth, M., and Burkhart, B. "Childhood Sexual Victimization Among College Men: Definitions and Methodological Issues," Violence and Victim, 1987, vol. 2, no. 4, 241-253.)

I first found this out while still at school by a talk taken by the chaplin of the maximum security prison near me. Particularly relevant as I went to an all girls school.

As for women being safer drivers, it's common knowledge, but here you go
Home Office figures show that 88% of all driving offences are committed by men, rising to 97% of cases involving dangerous driving.

it's not really the point, only that it's easy to give any groups an identity without it actually being universally true.


ETA: it also makes a lot of sense that most abuse against children would be commited by women, as women have the most access to children.

[freethepeeps]

study of 582 college men found that up to 78 percent of those abused as children had been abused by females. (Fromuth, M., and Burkhart, B. "Childhood Sexual Victimization Among College Men: Definitions and Methodological Issues," Violence and Victim, 1987, vol. 2, no. 4, 241-253.)

That hardly backs up the claim that most convicted paedophiles are women ...... and the excerpt fails to mention if that is all forms of childhood abuse, or just sexual abuse....

0/10 - must do better.....

[dolly dagger]

Originally posted by Fiend_85
I first found this out while still at school by a talk taken by the chaplin of the maximum security prison near me. Particularly relevant as I went to an all girls school.


it's not really the point, only that it's easy to give any groups an identity without it actually being universally true.


ETA: it also makes a lot of sense that most abuse against children would be commited by women, as women have the most access to children.

And i found something completely different, this shows how dangerous these statistics are. You can manipulate, lie, make mistakes etc. and you are right it is easy to give groups identities, but it's dangerous too.

Your point about women and abuse is quite interesting though, never thought of that...

[Blagsta]

Originally posted by dolly dagger
Their is no group identity, we are all individuals, yes their are similarities, but you can NEVER know someone just from the outside..

People do identify with groups. But these groups are not based on merely skin colour.

[Blagsta]

Originally posted by Fiend_85
Black males are less academically able.

What do you base this on? If true is it to do with skin colour, culture, economic or social status in society or something else entirely?

[Blagsta]

Originally posted by Fiend_85
it's statisically true. and therefore a group identity, we have already established that no individual exactly mirrors the group.

Be very wary of that sort of statistic, especially as it fails to take into account any social or economic factors.

[Blagsta]

Originally posted by Fiend_85
Actually, most convicted paedophiles are women, so you need to check your statistics.

You wanted an example, I gave you one. How's 'women are safer drivers' for you?

Where are you getting your stats from?

[Kermit]

Originally posted by dolly dagger
Give examples then.

Members of a group identify with each other.

Take the linguistic phenomenon of convergence: when you like someone, you make your voice, your speech patterns and your lexis move towards what the other person is saying.

There are therefore group "identities", though you cannot deduce behavioural patterns from these identities reliably.

[Jim V]

Just point out it wasn't the poll that made you sound racist, it was the claim that black footballers were not english

[Fiend_85]

Originally posted by Blagsta
Where are you getting your stats from?

Do you finish reading a thread before going off on one at someone? because if you don't it's little more than postwhoring and basic bad manners.

[Blagsta]

Originally posted by Fiend_85
Do you finish reading a thread before going off on one at someone? because if you don't it's little more than postwhoring and basic bad manners.

So, you quoted a study no one's ever heard of. That ain't stats.

[Fiend_85]

Originally posted by Blagsta
So, you quoted a study no one's ever heard of. That ain't stats.

it's also not the point. You wanted a source, I got one. It's not like you're all, or any of you, are going to have heard of my sources. For example the IMechE conference on international safety standards. Not the most well known body in the world is it?

[Blagsta]

An easily verifiable source might be more helpful.

[Fiend_85]

Dude, it's not the point

[Blagsta]

Errr...yes it is. And don't call me "dude".

[Fiend_85]

Originally posted by Blagsta
Errr...yes it is. And don't call me "dude".

It's not the point, it's about group identity, and where it goes. This isn't a discussion about verifiable sources.

[major_tom]

98% of statistics are made up on the spot. a lot of these '' x% of x type of people do x behaviour statements are subject to political beliefs; i am constantly being told that boys are underperforming in schools, is this sexist or just a proven fact? i remember reading ( back in the 1980's ) that 85% of muggings were committed by black males. probably bollocks, but it would be unthinkable to publish this statistic nowadays. my point is that the ''dumb boys'' belief is not challenged or met with howls of indignation, why not? as a male, dont i have the right to be offended?

[Kentish]

So what is this thread actually about?

Blaggy, you make a valid point about the assertion that black boys are less academically able, but this isn't about race or discrimination, it's surely just naming generalisations and talking of averages and likelihoods.

[Fiend_85]

Sorry, was that point made was it?

[freethepeeps]

Originally posted by Fiend_85
it's statisically true. and therefore a group identity, we have already established that no individual exactly mirrors the group.

There seems to be some confusion between stereotypes, generalisations and group identity - group identity is not something that you foist on people, its something they assume - and somehow (even if it was true that black men are less intelligent than you..... :rolleyes: ) I can't see too many people building a group identity out of being "less intelligent" .......

[Blagsta]

Originally posted by Fiend_85
It's not the point, it's about group identity, and where it goes. This isn't a discussion about verifiable sources.

But if yer gonna use something to make a point, it should be a verifiable something.

[Fiend_85]

Originally posted by Blagsta
But if yer gonna use something to make a point, it should be a verifiable something.

no not really, my point was not really anything to do with any statistic in particular. It can be shown by the statistic that lboro uni ration boys to girls is 3/2 and therefore boys are rampantly horny OR by the same statistic that the girls are all easy.

I don't need to be able to back up the ratio, the point is that any group has an identity or stereotype, that doesn't mean that every or indeed any member of the group DIRECTLY reflects that identity.

[Blagsta]

Originally posted by Fiend_85
no not really, my point was not really anything to do with any statistic in particular. It can be shown by the statistic that lboro uni ration boys to girls is 3/2 and therefore boys are rampantly horny OR by the same statistic that the girls are all easy.

I don't need to be able to back up the ratio, the point is that any group has an identity or stereotype, that doesn't mean that every or indeed any member of the group DIRECTLY reflects that identity.

Yes groups have identities and stereotypes (these things are not the same), but to assume that you know how an individual will be, based on their stereotype is the very defintion of prejudice.

[Fiend_85]

Originally posted by Blagsta
Yes groups have identities and stereotypes (these things are not the same), but to assume that you know how an individual will be, based on their stereotype is the very defintion of prejudice.

That's precisly my point.

[Blagsta]

Originally posted by Fiend_85
That's precisly my point.

No, it's my point. Get yer own. :p

[Kentish]

Originally posted by Fiend_85
That's precisly my point.
Excuse me, I think you lost this: e

[Fiend_85]

Originally posted by Kentish
Excuse me, I think you lost this: e

My 'e' key is broken.

[Kentish]

Originally posted by Fiend_85
My 'e' key is broken.
You're going to bed without any tea at this rate young lady. :lol:

[Fiend_85]

Originally posted by Kentish
You're going to bed without any tea at this rate young lady. :lol:

How disapointing for you. Already eaten.

[Kentish]

Originally posted by Fiend_85
disapointing
Your belly may be full but you still can't spell. Go to your room. :p

[Fiend_85]

Originally posted by Kentish
Your belly may be full but you still can't spell. Go to your room. :p

What's wrong with that one?! I blatantly haven't missed out an 'e' there.

[Kentish]

Originally posted by Fiend_85
What's wrong with that one?! I blatantly haven't missed out an 'e' there.
No it was a 'p' that time.

*switches off internal spellchecker*

[Fiend_85]

Originally posted by Kentish
No it was a 'p' that time.

*switches off internal spellchecker*

crap

[nckdn]

Originally posted by Jim V
Just point out it wasn't the poll that made you sound racist, it was the claim that black footballers were not english
I've defended my views about the England players on another thread. I explained that it's not about race, it's about ethnicity and respecting the different ethnic groups in England. If you don't agree with me on this matter, we have a minor disagreement about the definition of Englishness, and it's not a very moderate moderator who labels me racist. When this word is used it's generally understood and intended to imply that a person dilikes, even hates people because of their race. I've looked at my posts and assume you have too, there's nothing to imply any hostility to anyone, and I think I should be given the benefit of doubt by the moderators.
As for discrimination between groups based on knowledge of the groups ages, genders, or even race (which I don't think I even mentioned!), I've only ever said that such discrimination can be reasonable. Insurance companies discriminate against young male drivers. Medics use racial profiling in the delivery of vital health services. Charities work to improve living conditions in poor, rather than rich countries. This is discrimination between human groups based on knowledge of the differences between the groups. I haven't even said that I approve of such discrimination or if I myself discriminate against anybody based on any criteria. Yet I'm a racist because doctors do! Give me the benefit of the doubt. I'm not racist.

[Blagsta]

You still haven't told us what you mean by "Englishness".