'England' footballers not English?

[nckdn]

Posting seperate to Racist Spain thread, hoping to start new debate.
The Spaniards were booing players who clearly were not Englishmen, and therefore shouldn't be playing for England. If they had been more aware of what Englishness is they might also have booed Wayne Rooney (Irish). If Michael Owen (Welsh) or Owen Hargreaves (Welsh/Canadian) played they should also have been booed. Possibly the Nevilles and Lampard are ringers too. Spain fielded Spaniards, England fielded a Commonwealth 11 (and were still outclassed).
The Black players were booed because they are not English. Most Blacks who have British citizenship identify as 'Black-British', 'Afro-Caribbean', or 'West Indian'. They do not claim to be English, and they are clearly not English. They have no business playing for England.
The English are a real, living nation and their identity and seperateness from the rest of the British and Commonwealth peoples should be respected and protected.

[Kermit]

The best thing you could do, my good sir, is to brutally stab yourself whilst shaving tomorrow morning.

[MrG]

or if he doesnt want to i could do it for him

[nckdn]

Not the level of debate I was hoping for (moderators? ), but would welcome more sensible posts on 'Englishness' and recognizing and respecting it.

[MrG]

dear god you should read what passes as generally ok in here, you have not much of a case to report anything here as inappropriate

and as for englishness, i could report you for being a racist pig, end of the day if someone wants to call themselves an englishman im good with that if they uphold the law of the land, are good men/woman and have decency and pride within themselves and the ability to see it in others

you dont qualify or pass my tests, how i wish i was the PM

[Kermit]

Originally posted by nckdn
Not the level of debate I was hoping for

It's hard to debate with a racist cunt.

Fuck off.

[MrG]

Originally posted by Kermit
It's hard to debate with a racist cunt.

Fuck off.

bring out the ebola

[Kermit]

Originally posted by MrG
bring out the ebola

If you like...not fussed.

[MrG]

*MrGareth turns nckdn into a slug and pours copious amounts of salt upon him*

[BlackArab]

Originally posted by nckdn
Posting seperate to Racist Spain thread, hoping to start new debate.
The Spaniards were booing players who clearly were not Englishmen, and therefore shouldn't be playing for England. If they had been more aware of what Englishness is they might also have booed Wayne Rooney (Irish). If Michael Owen (Welsh) or Owen Hargreaves (Welsh/Canadian) played they should also have been booed. Possibly the Nevilles and Lampard are ringers too. Spain fielded Spaniards, England fielded a Commonwealth 11 (and were still outclassed).
The Black players were booed because they are not English. Most Blacks who have British citizenship identify as 'Black-British', 'Afro-Caribbean', or 'West Indian'. They do not claim to be English, and they are clearly not English. They have no business playing for England.
The English are a real, living nation and their identity and seperateness from the rest of the British and Commonwealth peoples should be respected and protected.

yeh and that Mike Skinner/The Streets, claims to be 45th generation Roman and is still allowed to call himself English!!! I ask you what is the country coming to eh eh. grrr grrr. :mad:

<a href='http://www.smileycentral.com/?partner=ZSzeb008_ZNxuk156YYUS' target='_blank'><img src='http://smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/10/10_1_118v.gif' alt='Lumpy' border=0></a>

[Maladjusted]

Originally posted by Kermit
It's hard to debate with a racist cunt.

Fuck off.

indeed.

[Renzo]

Yes because only white people can be English can't they? :rolleyes:


Idiot.

[BlackArab]

Originally posted by Renzo
Yes because only white people can be English can't they? :rolleyes:


Idiot.

except Rooney, Owen, Lampard, the Nevilles etc etc...:confused:

[Renzo]

Originally posted by BlackArab
except Rooney, Owen, Lampard, the Nevilles etc etc...:confused:

I know he mentioned them, but just from what I read he was saying that black people can never be 'english'

[BlackArab]

Originally posted by Renzo
I know he mentioned them, but just from what I read he was saying that black people can never be 'english'

Did understand, just wanted to highlight the ridiculousness of the post.

[Renzo]

Originally posted by BlackArab
Did understand, just wanted to highlight the ridiculousness of the post.

oh :(

[Makoto]

Originally posted by nckdn
Posting seperate to Racist Spain thread, hoping to start new debate.
The Spaniards were booing players who clearly were not Englishmen, and therefore shouldn't be playing for England. If they had been more aware of what Englishness is they might also have booed Wayne Rooney (Irish). If Michael Owen (Welsh) or Owen Hargreaves (Welsh/Canadian) played they should also have been booed. Possibly the Nevilles and Lampard are ringers too. Spain fielded Spaniards, England fielded a Commonwealth 11 (and were still outclassed).
The Black players were booed because they are not English. Most Blacks who have British citizenship identify as 'Black-British', 'Afro-Caribbean', or 'West Indian'. They do not claim to be English, and they are clearly not English. They have no business playing for England.
The English are a real, living nation and their identity and seperateness from the rest of the British and Commonwealth peoples should be respected and protected.

If you have a problem then take it up with the FA or stop whinning.

[nckdn]

Everybody who responded seems to have a problem with my post but nobody was willing to explain their viewpoint or show why mine is wrong. The personal abuse is silly.

[Man Of Kent]

Originally posted by nckdn
The Spaniards were booing players who clearly were not Englishmen

Those players weren't being booed because they were english, they were booed because of the colour of their skin.

Now, if you are suggesting that the player's skin colour is what makes them "clearly" not english, then I have to ask what you use to define being "English".

Personally, I though being born in Engalnd was enough, failing that being born of English parent, usually applies too.

Most Blacks who have British citizenship identify as 'Black-British', 'Afro-Caribbean', or 'West Indian'. They do not claim to be English, and they are clearly not English. They have no business playing for England.

Actually, they claim an ethnicity but they are also English a most are proud of that.

Out of interest, I describe myself as being Kentish. Does that mean that I am not also English?

The English are a real, living nation and their identity and seperateness from the rest of the British and Commonwealth peoples should be respected and protected.

Sorry, but I don't see the relevance of this comment, except that I agree with it. And I'm sure that most of the players would too. After all they are English too...

[Jim V]

In reference to the post, racism isn't tolerated here, in reference to the replies, nor are personal insults

two wrongs don't make a right

[Blagsta]

Originally posted by nckdn
Everybody who responded seems to have a problem with my post but nobody was willing to explain their viewpoint or show why mine is wrong. The personal abuse is silly.

Tell me what "English" means then.

[Maladjusted]

Originally posted by nckdn The Black players were booed because they are not English.

that's a load of crap and you know it, they were booed because they were black/the colour of their skin.

Originally posted by nckdn Most Blacks who have British citizenship identify as 'Black-British', 'Afro-Caribbean', or 'West Indian'. They do not claim to be English, and they are clearly not English. They have no business playing for England.

So by that reckoning, if i possessed any talent at football i would ahev no business playing for england because i am of chinese descent, even though i was born and lived in the same town in london for my entire life apart from university, and my parents have spent the majority o their lives in london as well?

I'm respectful of my chinese heritage, but in the same respect i am a lot more british or english than i am chinese. In the way i act, think and in my ideas in general.

[Martin_Bashir]

it would be far easier for us to destroy his case than to insult him.

'England' and the british nation are heavily built upon foreign interaction and immigration.

Look back at your family history. How far back do you have to go before you find out that your family dont exactly bleed red and white.

So many of us will have deep roots in other cultures, just because of their 'national' biological identity which you have constructed, does this automatically make them 'English' or no? Is the English identity in the physical or the cognitive mode? is their an English identity or is an eclectic mix? How much does a 'race' have to contribute to a society before it is excepted.

and you are totally wrong about why the Spanish booed the Black english.

If you come on here with an arguement like a leaky bucket, we are gonna point out the holes.

[Kermit]

If only the "English" could play for England then we wouldn't have a team.

And it's the same in any country.

[nckdn]

Thanks, you've given me a lot to think about. I still seem to have a very different take on Englishness to most of you tho'. The English are the ethnic majority in England, some of the ethnic minority groups are the Welsh, Jews, West-Indians, and Irish Travellers. The convention is to allow people to define their own ethnicity. People whose heritage includes the Africa to Caribbean slave trade claim many different ethnicities including Black-British, Afro-Caribbean, Trinidadian, British, Black and so on. The Welsh in England overwhelmingly self define as Welsh or British. It's important to recognize people's right to value their own ethnic or national heritage. Wars and all that. The fact that the Welsh and English are still two quite distinct peoples with different cultures, languages and yes, football teams, after centuries of living up against each other shows that assimilation/absorption, if it ever happens is a very very slow process. Is it really the case that an Indian family in Britain for just 50 years can have been assimilated into ethnic Englishness. They don't claim it, why should people on this board? They may be British, perhaps they prefer British-Asian, but they simply are not English. I think we will know when assimilation has occurred, they will identify as English, will be recognized as English, and this will have been so for generations (memory and history being the whole thing really). I'm not racist! Michael Owen is Welsh!
Thanks again MoK, MB, JimV and others, I'll think on.

[Blagsta]

I'll ask you again

Originally posted by Blagsta
Tell me what "English" means then.

[MrG]

Originally posted by nckdn
Thanks, you've given me a lot to think about. I still seem to have a very different take on Englishness to most of you tho'. The English are the ethnic majority in England, some of the ethnic minority groups are the Welsh, Jews, West-Indians, and Irish Travellers. The convention is to allow people to define their own ethnicity. People whose heritage includes the Africa to Caribbean slave trade claim many different ethnicities including Black-British, Afro-Caribbean, Trinidadian, British, Black and so on. The Welsh in England overwhelmingly self define as Welsh or British. It's important to recognize people's right to value their own ethnic or national heritage. Wars and all that. The fact that the Welsh and English are still two quite distinct peoples with different cultures, languages and yes, football teams, after centuries of living up against each other shows that assimilation/absorption, if it ever happens is a very very slow process. Is it really the case that an Indian family in Britain for just 50 years can have been assimilated into ethnic Englishness. They don't claim it, why should people on this board? They may be British, perhaps they prefer British-Asian, but they simply are not English. I think we will know when assimilation has occurred, they will identify as English, will be recognized as English, and this will have been so for generations (memory and history being the whole thing really). I'm not racist! Michael Owen is Welsh!
Thanks again MoK, MB, JimV and others, I'll think on.

just as a point of reference, wales and england are two seperate countries

[Kentish]

Originally posted by Man Of Kent
I describe myself as being Kentish.
It's a lie :mad:

You, sir, are not worthy of the title Kentish Man. :lol:

[Man Of Kent]

Originally posted by nckdn
I still seem to have a very different take on Englishness to most of you tho'.

Yes, you just haven't defined it. What is it that you see as Englishness? Does skin colour count, because you certainly insinuate that...

The English are the ethnic majority in England, some of the ethnic minority groups are the Welsh, Jews, West-Indians, and Irish Travellers.

and and and...

and what is your point here?

The fact that the Welsh and English are still two quite distinct peoples with different cultures, languages and yes, football teams, after centuries of living up against each other shows that assimilation/absorption, if it ever happens is a very very slow process.

This would be because Wales is a nation in it's own right...

I think we will know when assimilation has occurred, they will identify as English, will be recognized as English

Wouldn't playing for England actually be a sign that this has happened?

At least for the individuals involved...?

[BlackArab]

I and most ethnic minorities I know who were born here class ourselves as English, therefore by your own definition assimilation has occured.

Michael Owen born in Chester.

Wayne Rooney born in Liverpool.

Our patron Saint born?...

Chicken Tikka Masala anyone?

[nckdn]

Originally posted by BlackArab
I and most ethnic minorities I know who were born here class ourselves as English, therefore by your own definition assimilation has occured.
Politics and Debate, yet this is the only post to challenge my only argument, that the English are a distinct and separate ethnic group, and that the various ethnic minority groups are also distinct and separate. This viewpoint is the accepted (the only acceptable) viewpoint in the media, government, academe, the CRE and the law, in all of public life in fact. Pretty much everybody recognizes and respects ethnic diversity in Britain, so I thought it was a reasonable and not too controversial topic to debate; just why should members of other ethnic groups be playing for the 'English' football team? Despite the many posters, only BlackArab has prompted me to question myself. Four questions actually.
1)Can you be a member of an ethnic minority group and an ethnic majority group at the same time? It seems odd, somehow. Dolly Dagger's right that sometimes we put people in boxes, maybe that's why I struggle to accept this idea.
2)Do the members of ethnic minorities in England generally claim to be English, as BlackArab's experience suggests they do? No they don't.
3)Did I really say that this would make them English, as BlackArab claims I did? No.
4)Why is it unacceptable to ask why Non-English Britons are playing for an England team? I don't know.
BlackArab had me questioning myself and my opinions. If I'm wrong about ethnicity and Englishness, why haven't the other people who expressed disagreement with my opinion explained why I am wrong. That's what this board is for.

[Blagsta]

For the third time...

Originally posted by Blagsta
Tell me what "English" means then.

[Jim V]

I'm sorry I really don't understand what you mean by English as an ethnic group, English is a nationality, not an ethnicity

[Blagsta]

I don't think he knows what he means either.

[morrocan roll]

Originally posted by Blagsta
I don't think he knows what he means either. i think he knows perfectly well what he means and what he's up to.

[Blagsta]

Originally posted by morrocan roll
i think he knows perfectly well what he means and what he's up to.

I don't. I think he's just another poor fool hoodwinked by the fash.

[BlackArab]

Originally posted by nckdn
Politics and Debate, yet this is the only post to challenge my only argument, that the English are a distinct and separate ethnic group, and that the various ethnic minority groups are also distinct and separate. This viewpoint is the accepted (the only acceptable) viewpoint in the media, government, academe, the CRE and the law, in all of public life in fact. Pretty much everybody recognizes and respects ethnic diversity in Britain, so I thought it was a reasonable and not too controversial topic to debate; just why should members of other ethnic groups be playing for the 'English' football team? Despite the many posters, only BlackArab has prompted me to question myself. Four questions actually.
1)Can you be a member of an ethnic minority group and an ethnic majority group at the same time? It seems odd, somehow. Dolly Dagger's right that sometimes we put people in boxes, maybe that's why I struggle to accept this idea.
2)Do the members of ethnic minorities in England generally claim to be English, as BlackArab's experience suggests they do? No they don't.
3)Did I really say that this would make them English, as BlackArab claims I did? No.
4)Why is it unacceptable to ask why Non-English Britons are playing for an England team? I don't know.
BlackArab had me questioning myself and my opinions. If I'm wrong about ethnicity and Englishness, why haven't the other people who expressed disagreement with my opinion explained why I am wrong. That's what this board is for.

As I understand it, in international sport one qualifies on the basis that you qualify by nationality not by ethnic group i.e England v Russia as opposed to Anglo-Saxons v Slavs. Therefore being born in England and English, I qualify to play alongside Beckham and wear the shirt.

However on ethnic monitoring forms, I am classed as Black British. My nationality has not changed despite the categories being different.

That should answer question one.

2. Young black and South Asian people are much more ambitious and optimistic than their white counterparts and feel as much a part of British culture as white people.

source: http://www.bbc.co.uk/commissioning/marketresearch/audiencegroup7.shtml

There was another study published recently which said the same thing. The majority of ethnic minorities do see themselves as English. Whether you choose to believe this we can do nothing about.

3. your quote: 'I think we will know when assimilation has occurred, they will identify as English' I was using this definition on re-reading it, I would suggest assimilation cannot be decided as having occured when judged by an individual. An individual can choose not to accept you as English if they wish to rightly or wrongly.

4. Its how you ask the questions and the examples you use. I'm still trying to get my head around the Rooney/Neville's thing. If your unsure about anything you post here ask Jim V or any Mod, they will be only to happy to give advice.

[BeckyBoo]

Originally posted by BlackArab
Chicken Tikka Masala anyone?

Its taken you a long time to invite me out.......of course, 7:30, ive booked the table ;)

[BlackArab]

Originally posted by BeckyBoo
Its taken you a long time to invite me out.......of course, 7:30, ive booked the table ;)

Must dash, two hours to get to Geordieland

:D

[BeckyBoo]

Originally posted by BlackArab
Must dash, two hours to get to Geordieland

:D

hehehe :D

[Kermit]

Since when has "English" been an ethnic group?

Idiot.

[nckdn]

Originally posted by Kermit
Since when has "English" been an ethnic group?
Idiot.

I can't believe I have to defend the opinion that the English are an ethnic group. Google "ethnic english" or english (and) ethnicity. The government, CRE and serious academics back me up. I've said it's the accepted view, that there isn't really an alternative view ever expressed in any area of public life. It's recognised by law! I can't believe I'm having to write this. In England! Most of you have the same viewpoint as Kermit don't you? JimV said basically the same thing. I'm really stunned. Let's not use words if we don't know what they mean.

[Fiend_85]

English isn't an ethnic group.

Ethnic adj.
1. of or relating to a human group with racial, religious, and linguistic characteristics in common
2. characteristic of another culture, esp. a peasant one;


English is a nationality

Nationality n.
1. the fact of being a citizen of a particular nation
2. a group of people of the same race;

[Kentish]

Originally posted by Fiend_85
Ethnic: of or relating to a human group with racial, religious, and linguistic characteristics in common

English is a nationality...a group of people of the same race;
I think one could argue that English is an ethinicity.

But where I seem to disagree with nckdn is that I think ethnic groups aren't fixed - that is, English is an evolving description that can change as English citizens change.

[Aladdin]

How long before we hear nckdn utter the favourite catchphrase of naziboys everywhere: "A dog born in a stable isn't a horse" or thereabouts... :rolleyes:

[MrG]

Originally posted by BlackArab
Must dash, two hours to get to Geordieland

:D

why on earth are/were you headed up this part of the country :P

[BeckyBoo]

Originally posted by MrG
why on earth are/were you headed up this part of the country :P

to take me for a Chicken Tikka Masala :D

[MrG]

ahh you should come up for some pancakes some day :)

[Kermit]

Originally posted by Aladdin
How long before we hear nckdn utter the favourite catchphrase of naziboys everywhere: "A dog born in a stable isn't a horse" or thereabouts... :rolleyes:

He already pretty much has.

It's the same mentality as those people who abused Amir Khan for proudly wearing both the Union Flag and the flag of Pakistan: either you are British or not, you can't be a mixture, you can't be proud of your Britishness (or Englishness) and your Pakistaniness (for example).

It is racist, no matter how you try and dress it up as it being anything but.

[nckdn]

Originally posted by nckdn
I can't believe I have to defend the opinion that the English are an ethnic group. Google "ethnic english" or english (and) ethnicity. The government, CRE and serious academics back me up. I've said it's the accepted view, that there isn't really an alternative view ever expressed in any area of public life. It's recognised by law! I can't believe I'm having to write this. In England! Most of you have the same viewpoint as Kermit don't you? JimV said basically the same thing. I'm really stunned. Let's not use words if we don't know what they mean.

Sorry about this post, I sound like Victor Meldrew, I've been told I often do, tho' of course I think it's factually correct, although google.co.uk (UK only) was what I used. The sites are there which show that English is a recognised ethnicity. I'll admit to error, and with some of my views I do hope that you can show I'm wrong.

[MrG]

anyone can make a site saying that english is an ethnicity, but then again its a nationality so think again