"Bush lied..."

[Globe]

http://www.newsmax.com/archives/ic/2004/6/25/114037.shtml

[lukesh]

here we go yet again.

I still believe there was WMD!

[Globe]

Originally posted by lukesh
here we go yet again.

I still believe there was WMD!

Proper usage would be ARE, as in, they are beginning to be found.

However, those with an extreme short attention span due to their preference to live in a movie inspired and constrained world, have not the patience for reality. Their delusions are ever so better supported by their prejudice, than fact... even when the unearthing of small objects in a large country requires a bit more than the 2-hour parameter time frame of a movie...

[lukesh]

Originally posted by Globe
Proper usage would be ARE, as in, they are beginning to be found.

However, those with an extreme short attention span due to their preference to live in a movie inspired and constrained world, have not the patience for reality. Their delusions are ever so better supported by their prejudice, than fact... even when the unearthing of small objects in a large country requires a bit more than the 2-hour parameter time frame of a movie... sorry mate but this topic about Bush/WMD is really boring now. It's been debated so many times everyone is fed up of it.

[Globe]

Originally posted by lukesh
sorry mate but this topic about Bush/WMD is really boring now.

As in...

The lie and defamation are page one. Everybody LOVES it...

The truth, and retraction? Are buried where no one will find them.

Hardly surprising, considering the ilk of those who found their prejudice so delicious, in this place...

[morrocan roll]

we told you there were no wmd's to be found ...they found none.
we told you there were lots of lies to be found ...we found them in the white house ...

[ladymuck]

If Bush gets re-elected nono of this matters, so it's up to the US voting public. I heard on radio Republican areas are still staunch

Not fluid like UK with floating voters, UKIP and all that

[morrocan roll]

Originally posted by lukesh

I still believe there was WMD! there was ...a long time ago.
if you believe there are WMD'S stashed away still ...what do you base your beliefs on? you can't believe something without a basis for that belief.

[Uncle Joe]

Originally posted by lukesh
here we go yet again.

I still believe there was WMD! (Introduction) lukesh... Globe. Globe.. lukesh.

My favourite posters at cross purposes :)

[Uncle Joe]

What some people continually appear to overlook is that the inspection teams were intended to monitor the destruction of 'WMDs', not seek them out. That task was hampered by Bush as much as Saddam (infiltrating the inspection team with CIA spies, so that Saddam kicked them out... smooth move). When they finally got the chance to do their jobs, the Iraqis said most of the weapons had already been destroyed. It then became a matter of determining if that was true. Picture that game where you have to remember which cup the ball is under, but you've lost track of the ball... and there are a thousand cups to be examined...

But keeping an eye on the ball has never been the Bush admin's strong point.

[Aladdin]

When people have to resort to posting links to such websites you know how desperate their plight has become...

No WMDs.

No threats to world peace.

No links to 9/11.

No links to Al Qaida.

In fact, has Bush actually told the truth a single time since he cheated into office Thanatos?

P.S. What are you doing this weekend? Any plans to go to the movies? Perhaps to see this year must-see film Fahrenheit 9/11? :D

[lukesh]

Originally posted by morrocan roll
there was ...a long time ago.
if you believe there are WMD'S stashed away still ...what do you base your beliefs on? you can't believe something without a basis for that belief. I trust Bush before I trust Saddam!

[lukesh]

Originally posted by Aladdin
When people have to resort to posting links to such websites you know how desperate their plight has become...

No WMDs.

No threats to world peace.

No links to 9/11.

No links to Al Qaida.

In fact, has Bush actually told the truth a single time since he cheated into office Thanatos?

P.S. What are you doing this weekend? Any plans to go to the movies? Perhaps to see this year must-see film Fahrenheit 9/11? :D please don't mention what they ahev doen to us.

[RiSe & ShIne]

Originally posted by Aladdin

P.S. What are you doing this weekend? Any plans to go to the movies? Perhaps to see this year must-see film Fahrenheit 9/11? :D

When is that out over here?

[lukesh]

Originally posted by RiSe & ShIne
When is that out over here? it's American, sure you will enjoy it?

[RiSe & ShIne]

Originally posted by lukesh
it's American, sure you will enjoy it?

It's filled with the truth, 'course I will.

[Uncle Joe]

Originally posted by lukesh
I trust Bush before I trust Saddam! Got straightened out now, lukesh?

You have to bear in mind that Thanny likes to use a subject title that he believes will attract all the gullible pantywaist liberals. In fact, the truth is that any topic started by him brightens up our online time. He's so... visceral! <-----titters shrilly :hyper:

[Dear Wendy]

Originally posted by RiSe & ShIne
It's filled with the truth, 'course I will.

While Bowling for Columbine brought up some interesting points, the furthest I would say about the truth in that movie, is that it is a very stretched truth, fitted to make th situation seem as he wants it.
I wouldn't base any of my opinions on such a movie alone.

But yes, who knows what fahrenheit 9/11 will bring.

[lukesh]

the whole WMD/Bush subject I find so boring. Can't believe you guys still like chatting about it.

[lukesh]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/3842599.stm

good progress!

[Blagsta]

Originally posted by lukesh
the whole WMD/Bush subject I find so boring. Can't believe you guys still like chatting about it.

Errrrr...hello? Ever heard of a little place called Iraq and the fact that its in a complete fucking mess due to the actions of Bush and Blair? Actions predicated on the finding of WMD's? :rolleyes:

[lukesh]

Originally posted by Blagsta
Errrrr...hello? Ever heard of a little place called Iraq and the fact that its in a complete fucking mess due to the actions of Bush and Blair? Actions predicated on the finding of WMD's? :rolleyes: after world war 2 was over, London was in a mess but eventually picked up, just like Iraq will.


Before when saddamwas in power, iraqis didn't have a voice, they certainly are using it now thnaks to Bush and Blair!

[Blagsta]

Comparing London after WW2 to the situation in Iraq betrays a real lack of understanding of history and current affairs.

[lukesh]

Originally posted by Blagsta
Comparing London after WW2 to the situation in Iraq betrays a real lack of understanding of history and current affairs. oh right. i give up on thsi one. sod it! :)

[The Doc]

Originally posted by lukesh
it's American, sure you will enjoy it?

I think British films are shit, but I don't hate myself.

WWII was THE most just war of all time. Nothing in the second millenia AD comes close. Christian Crusades? Discovering America/Africa/Australasia and killing/enslaving the natives? Iraq II? Nope. So please don't compare them. It's quite insulting.

[morrocan roll]

at the end of the day bush has lied lied and lied some fucking more ...and some of you still defend him!
is this realy the kind of person YOU would vote for to lead the 'free' world?

[lukesh]

Originally posted by morrocan roll
at the end of the day bush has lied lied and lied some fucking more ...and some of you still defend him!
is this realy the kind of person YOU would vote for to lead the 'free' world? If I lived in America, I would be voting Bush in the November Elections.

All this attention on Bush as resulted to so much Anti Bush on these boards. Lets look at Chirac now eh? I bet there is loads we can expose about him and France over Iraq.

[The Matadore]

It's filled with the truth, 'course I will.

Its a piece of entertainment, its created to make money, I personally would take everything Moore says in it with a large pinch of salt.

Moore's films and books should be treated with the same amount of scepticism as those on the right, for example Bill O'Reilly and Anne Coulter.

[Will]

Originally posted by lukesh
I trust Bush before I trust Saddam!

You drunk? Saddam was telling the truth abou no WMD's, he even released video's of them being destroyed way back when. Im Supprised no cruise missiles have turned up with 'USA' crossed out and 'Iraq' written on in permanent marker...

Serious, Iraq was all about Oil, Cuba poses more of a threat as they could stop making Cigars. Don't ask me why Cuba is on the Axis of evil list, all they have is one rusty old Russian anti-air missile in a farmers feild, which doesn't work. And a few MiG's, the MiG-29 is superiour to the F-15 though, but they only have 2... oh, and lots of Cigars!:lol:

[lukesh]

Originally posted by Will
You drunk? Saddam was telling the truth abou no WMD's, he even released video's of them being destroyed way back when. Im Supprised no cruise missiles have turned up with 'USA' crossed out and 'Iraq' written on in permanent marker...

Serious, Iraq was all about Oil, Cuba poses more of a threat as they could stop making Cigars. Don't ask me why Cuba is on the Axis of evil list, all they have is one rusty old Russian anti-air missile in a farmers feild, which doesn't work. And a few MiG's, the MiG-29 is superiour to the F-15 though, but they only have 2... oh, and lots of Cigars!:lol: No Iam perfectly soba

I prefer Bush to saddam anyday may i repeat1

[LabRat]

Can anybody here explain why US an UK have the right to have WMD but Iraq doesn’t?

[morrocan roll]

Originally posted by lukesh
No Iam perfectly soba

I prefer Bush to saddam anyday may i repeat1 perfectly sober but mad!
saddam won't be standing in the elections ...he's tied up at the moment.

[marv]

Can anybody here explain why US an UK have the right to have WMD but Iraq doesn’t?

I agree what right does any state have in owning such vile weapons even though they are a democracy?

I know of the MAD scenario and its impact it had on the cold war but they should be outlawed fully by the UN and destroyed.

[LabRat]

Outlawed by the UN? That means by USA, Russia, China, UK and France? Yes it is outlawed. For lower races.

[LabRat]

Hi Luke
Read these words of FoxNews’s O’Reilly

O'REILLY: Because look . . . when two percent of the population feels that you're doing them a favor, just forget it, you're not going to win. You're not going to win. And I don't have any respect by and large for the Iraqi people at all. I have no respect for them. I think that they're a prehistoric group that is -- yeah, there's excuses.

Sure, they're terrorized, they've never known freedom, all of that. There's excuses. I understand. But I don't have to respect them because you know when you have Americans dying trying to you know institute some kind of democracy there, and twp percent of the people appreciate it, you know, it's time to -- time to wise up.

And this teaches us a big lesson, that we cannot intervene in the Muslim world ever again. What we can do is bomb the living daylights out of them, just like we did in the Balkans. Just as we did in the Balkans. Bomb the living daylights out of them. But no more ground troops, no more hearts and minds, ain't going to work.

Do you agree that Iraqis are ‘prehistoric’ and ‘primitive’?
And even if they are is this a justification to bomb them?
In which way ‘no respect for them’ can be connected to ‘Liberation’?
Do you share this sadistic approach ‘no troops, just bomb living daylights out of them’?
I’m sure you don’t think so.
But if you don’t think so why do you support this war? Just because America is a good counterbalance to the EU?
Scuse me but it is a bad rationalisation. Maybe to be a province of American Empire is better than to be a province of European Empire but I don’t think the difference is so huge. Don’t you think that the best solution is to be independent and fuck all empires like EU, US, UN etc?

[lukesh]

Originally posted by LabRat
Can anybody here explain why US an UK have the right to have WMD but Iraq doesn’t? isn't it at all obvious?

Uk/USA would never use theirs, Saddam certainly would, he would definitley try to scare the world with them!

We would all like the world to have no WMD but with the world as it is, thnak god for us having them!

[lukesh]

Originally posted by morrocan roll
perfectly sober but mad!
saddam won't be standing in the elections ...he's tied up at the moment. pardon?

So if I said I prefer saddam to Bush it's OK?

I'll repeat yet again Bush over Saddam anyday!

[lukesh]

Originally posted by LabRat
Hi Luke
Read these words of FoxNews’s O’Reilly

O'REILLY: Because look . . . when two percent of the population feels that you're doing them a favor, just forget it, you're not going to win. You're not going to win. And I don't have any respect by and large for the Iraqi people at all. I have no respect for them. I think that they're a prehistoric group that is -- yeah, there's excuses.

Sure, they're terrorized, they've never known freedom, all of that. There's excuses. I understand. But I don't have to respect them because you know when you have Americans dying trying to you know institute some kind of democracy there, and twp percent of the people appreciate it, you know, it's time to -- time to wise up.

And this teaches us a big lesson, that we cannot intervene in the Muslim world ever again. What we can do is bomb the living daylights out of them, just like we did in the Balkans. Just as we did in the Balkans. Bomb the living daylights out of them. But no more ground troops, no more hearts and minds, ain't going to work.

Do you agree that Iraqis are ‘prehistoric’ and ‘primitive’?
And even if they are is this a justification to bomb them?
In which way ‘no respect for them’ can be connected to ‘Liberation’?
Do you share this sadistic approach ‘no troops, just bomb living daylights out of them’?
I’m sure you don’t think so.
But if you don’t think so why do you support this war? Just because America is a good counterbalance to the EU?
Scuse me but it is a bad rationalisation. Maybe to be a province of American Empire is better than to be a province of European Empire but I don’t think the difference is so huge. Don’t you think that the best solution is to be independent and fuck all empires like EU, US, UN etc? I support this war to this day because it has got rid of Saddam Hussien. It will eventually seem worthwhile in coming years as we got rid of him so many years ago. He had to go, it was now or tomorrow.

Do you really think I like seeing the bombs in iraq, Iraqis getting killed? the whole warprocess? Of course I don't. It worries me to death.

I just know that it will eventually bring peace to the Middle East. Saddam has gone at last.

[CheeseOnToast]

Yes but it's not the point that Saddam had to go, that's the REASON we were told we were going to war!!

That's NOT why our soliders gave up their lives!

It was for these WMD which do not exist! Or are hidden..;)

[lukesh]

Originally posted by CheeseOnToast
Yes but it's not the point that Saddam had to go, that's the REASON we were told we were going to war!!

That's NOT why our soliders gave up their lives!

It was for these WMD which do not exist! Or are hidden..;) yeah but I still believe in this war whether their were wmd or not. Saddam had to go.

I'm not saying it couldn't have been done another way but it's done now and some people just can't get over it. Thank god Europe/Turkey and America are now friends again so real progress can begin. All we need is the world tearing apart, if we are all together we can all do it!

[CheeseOnToast]

I agree Luke that Saddam had to go - but if that's the case we should've been told that's why we were going to war, and a UN resolution should've been accepted before going don't you think?

What do you think would happen if Iran or North Korea invaded somewhere when all the rest of the UN had said no?

[morrocan roll]

Originally posted by lukesh
pardon?

So if I said I prefer saddam to Bush it's OK?

I'll repeat yet again Bush over Saddam anyday! i have not seen one saddam supporter on this site ...or anywhere else for that.
you realy don't get the point.

[lukesh]

Originally posted by morrocan roll
i have not seen one saddam supporter on this site ...or anywhere else for that.
you realy don't get the point. I know a few saddam supporters.

[CheeseOnToast]

I'd love to hear their side of the argument, NOT !

[marv]

But America dropped the A-Bomb on Japan arent they weapons of mass destruction.

These weapons are dangerous and should not be in the hands of anyone including the UK, France, Russia and the US.

[lukesh]

Originally posted by CheeseOnToast
I'd love to hear their side of the argument, NOT ! well it's pathetic. i get aclled a white bitch off them, they say saddam and Bin laden for ever and I say Bush and israel for ever. it's pathetic really.

[Aladdin]

Originally posted by lukesh
isn't it at all obvious?

Uk/USA would never use theirs, Saddam certainly would, he would definitley try to scare the world with them!
I fear you are 60 years too late Luke.

1. The US is the only nation in the world to have used nuclear weapons. And on civilian population as well.

2. The US has caused more deaths through the use of chemical weapons than any other nation in the history of mankind. More than 1.1 million people in Vietnam alone have been killed, injured or born with hideous defects thanks to the indiscriminate use of Agent Orange by the US. And to top it all, the US government was fully aware at the time of the extreme toxicity of the agent and the likely consequences it would have on the enemies, the innocent civilians and even its own American forces.

3. The US is the most likely country to use nuclear weapons again. The deranged, lunatic, dangerous scumbag currently sitting in the White House has given his full support to the development of low yield 'battlefield nukes' (and signalled that the US would probably use such weapons once they're ready) and the next-generation of nuclear warheads. In addition he has torn up the non-proliferation treaties that had been in place for decades in order to allow him to develop his missile defence shield. As a result of this needless and pointless actions Russia and China have announced their plans to upgrade their delivery systems and even to re-start their own nuclear programmes.

So thanks to that fucking piece of shit we now have a new arms race going on.

Of all the nations that have or would like to have nuclear capability, the US should currently be the biggest concern to us all. I'd sooner trust a monkey with the nuclear briefcase than that idiot.

[lukesh]

Originally posted by marv
But America dropped the A-Bomb on Japan arent they weapons of mass destruction.

These weapons are dangerous and should not be in the hands of anyone including the UK, France, Russia and the US. agree but it's not possible in this world.

[lukesh]

Originally posted by Aladdin
I fear you are 60 years too late Luke.

1. The US is the only nation in the world to have used nuclear weapons. And on civilian population as well.

2. The US has caused more deaths through the use of chemical weapons than any other nation in the history of mankind. More than 1.1 million people in Vietnam alone have been killed, injured or born with hideous defects thanks to the indiscriminate use of Agent Orange by the US. And to top it all, the US government was fully aware at the time of the extreme toxicity of the agent and the likely consequences it would have on the enemies, the innocent civilians and even its own American forces.

3. The US is the most likely country to use nuclear weapons again. The deranged, lunatic, dangerous scumbag currently sitting in the White House has given his full support to the development of low yield 'battlefield nukes' (and signalled that the US would probably use such weapons once they're ready) and the next-generation of nuclear warheads. In addition he has torn up the non-proliferation treaties that had been in place for decades in order to allow him to develop his missile defence shield. As a result of this needless and pointless actions Russia and China have announced their plans to upgrade their delivery systems and even to re-start their own nuclear programmes.

So thanks to that fucking piece of shit we now have a new arms race going on.

Of all the nations that have or would like to have nuclear capability, the US should currently be the biggest concern to us all. I'd sooner trust a monkey with the nuclear briefcase than that idiot. I understand what you saying and I have never said the States is a saint.

America is exposed that much why not expose what france has been getting up to with saddam for instance? Or anything else for that matter. It's never in the emdia as it's not a soft target like America.

[Aladdin]

Don't change the subject Luke. We were just talking about nuclear weapons and the starting topic was "Bush lied". Nice try to deflect attention... :rolleyes:

[lukesh]

Originally posted by Aladdin
Don't change the subject Luke. We were just talking about nuclear weapons and the starting topic was "Bush lied". Nice try to deflect attention... :rolleyes: huh? I didn't try to change it, really! I know you don't believe me but I didn't really!!!

[The Matadore]

. The US is the only nation in the world to have used nuclear weapons. And on civilian population as well.

Yes, but it had a valid reason for doing so.

The US has caused more deaths through the use of chemical weapons than any other nation in the history of mankind. More than 1.1 million people in Vietnam alone have been killed, injured or born with hideous defects thanks to the indiscriminate use of Agent Orange by the US

It was at war at the time , facing guerilla attacks. The best way of stopping thwm was using chemicals to destroy the forests they hid in. Your figure of 1.1 million is very suspicious.

The US is the most likely country to use nuclear weapons again.

Why? The US has complete superiority without the need for nuclear weapons.

In addition he has torn up the non-proliferation treaties that had been in place for decades in order to allow him to develop his missile defence shield

Cold war treaties for a cold war world.

[Aladdin]

Originally posted by The Matadore
Yes, but it had a valid reason for doing so. Reason being the life of a US soldier is worth more than, say, 100 Japanese women and children?



It was at war at the time , facing guerilla attacks. The best way of stopping thwm was using chemicals to destroy the forests they hid in. Your figure of 1.1 million is very suspicious. Oh so a war justifies anything then does it? I look forward to your change of heart regarding evil Saddam's use of chemical weapons in the Iran-Iraq war then...

Well, why don't we just get the US to nuke any country that poses it a problem? That way the civilians would have been spared years of agony and not a single 'good guy' would have been lost.

Provided that the oil reserves weren't damaged Matadore, would you have supported the US if it had dropped a few nukes on Iraq instead of waging a conventional war? And if not, why?

And by the way, the 1.1 million figure is correct. I’ll post the link tomorrow.


Why? The US has complete superiority without the need for nuclear weapons. Because nowadays the life of a single soldier is considered a price too high to pay. The fact that the spineless chimp has forbidden TV stations from showing footage of returning coffins confirms that nowadays any American death is a death too many.

And by the way it's not me who says it. The US has been saying for the last two or three years that it is studying the use of small nuclear bombs in battle.

Well, what are a few thousand civilians and a small environmental catastrophe next to the life of a few US soldiers eh?



Cold war treaties for a cold war world. Oh yeah? I wonder if you would have been so complacent if instead of the USA it had been Russia or- horror of horrors- scary communist China who announced they were going to build themselves an anti-missile shield while at the same time re-starting their nuclear weapon development programmes... :rolleyes:

Face it, and admit it while you're at it: That idiotic buffoon has made the world a far more dangerous and volatile place than it was four years ago.

[The Matadore]

Reason being the live of a US soldier is worth more than, say, 100 Japanese women and children?

The bombs saved the lives of millions of Japanese as well as American troops. Dont deny it, you know its true.

Because nowadays the life of a single soldier is considered a price too high to pay

What? If this is true then why is Bush risking the lives of America troops at all?

That idiotic buffoon has made the world a far more dangerous and volatile place than it was four years ago.

You are too attached to the Cold War world of treaties and multilateralism. In order to provoke real change in the world you have to make sacrifices andtake tough decisions.

[Aladdin]

Do you actually still believe that anything that Dubya has done in the last four years has been for the benefit of mankind, or even his own people?

Since you like the Republicans so much you must be aware of their extensive and prolific links with the weapons and oil industries. The wars Bush has taken his country into (killing hundreds and injuring tens of thousands of his own people, let alone foreigners), the new arms race he has created, the destruction of good relations between old allies and the increased level of conflict and tension worldwide have all been the price we've had to pay for the neo-cons endless greed and dangerous thirst for absolute power and dominance.

May we never again have to endure such evil, corrupt and dangerous bunch of murdering lying bastards as the "leaders of the free world."

[lukesh]

Originally posted by Aladdin
Do you actually still believe that anything that Dubya has done in the last four years has been for the benefit of mankind, or even his own people?

Since you like the Republicans so much you must be aware of their extensive and prolific links with the weapons and oil industries. The wars Bush has taken his country into (killing hundreds and injuring tens of thousands of his own people, let alone foreigners), the new arms race he has created, the destruction of good relations between old allies and the increased level of conflict and tension worldwide have all been the price we've had to pay for the neo-cons endless greed and dangerous thirst for absolute power and dominance.

May we never again have to endure such evil, corrupt and dangerous bunch of murdering lying bastards as the "leaders of the free world." I see what you saying. I have to say Bush certainly aint a saint but I'd never call him a terroists like some people have.

Instead of looking at the bad things Bush as done, look at the good things, I'm sure they would balance out.

[MrG]

bush lied yes, there are no wmd's from a current program

the stuff these guys are finding is from the program that was abandoned

[morrocan roll]

Originally posted by lukesh
I
Instead of looking at the bad things Bush as done, look at the good things, I'm sure they would balance out. tell us about the good things.

[Globe]

Originally posted by MrG
bush lied yes, there are no wmd's from a current program

the stuff these guys are finding is from the program that was abandoned

Oh... the equivocation continues... it don't count, unless it was made last week.

Glad THAT has been clarified...

Oh, the humiliation, to die from a weapon that was made a decade ago, rather than new production. The mortification will haunt us for all eternity...

[Uncle Joe]

Originally posted by morrocan roll
tell us about the good things.
Well, you asked for it... :)

Presidency of George W. Bush -- the first 39 months



Banned Partial Birth Abortion

Reversed Clinton's move to strike Reagan's anti-abortion Mexico Policy

Stopped foreign aid that would be used to fund abortions.

Supported and upheld the ban on abortions at military hospitals

Signed E.O. reversing Clinton's policy of not requiring parental consent for abortions under the Medical Privacy Act


Killed the Kyoto Global Warming Treaty

Killed U.S. involvement in the International Criminal Court

Killed Clinton's CO2 rules that were choking off all of the electricity surplus to California

Killed Clinton's "ergonomic" rules that OSHA was about to implement; rules that would have shut down every home business in America

Killed the U.S. - CCCP ABM Treaty that was preventing the U.S. from deploying our ABM defenses


Has CONSTRUCTION in process on the first ten ABM silos in Alaska and California so that America has a defense against North Korean nukes

President Bush pledged to Israel on 4/14/2004 that it could keep parts of the West Bank, giving international legitimacy to Jewish settlements there

Denied Palestinian refugees any right of return to what is now Israel, saying they should be resettled in a future Palestinian state instead

Part of coalition (Russia, Israel, EU, Palestine, USA) for Israeli/Palestinian "Roadmap to Peace"


Pushed through THREE raises for our military

Increased Defense Dept funding which had deteriorated during the previous 8 years

President Bush's Grand Strategy

President Bush's Environmental Record - 2004

Signed TWO bills into law that arm our pilots with handguns in the cockpit

Currently pushing for full immunity from lawsuits for our national gun manufacturers

Ordered Attorney-General Ashcroft to formally notify the Supreme Court that the OFFICIAL U.S. government position on the 2nd Amendment is that it supports INDIVIDUAL rights to own firearms, NOT a leftist-imagined *collective* right



Told the United Nations we weren't interested in their plans for gun control (i.e. the International Ban on Small Arms Trafficking Treaty)


Signed the 2004 Omnibus Budget 1/26/2004 that now MANDATES that gun buyers' background check information be fully and permanently destroyed within 24 hours of the completion of the check, no matter what.


Disarmed Libya of its Chemical, Nuclear, and biological WMD's without bribes or bloodshed

Won an agreement that U.S. Navy sailors may now freely board thousands of commercial ships in international waters to search for weapons of mass destruction under a landmark pact between the United States and Liberia, the world's No. 2 shipping registry (signed Feb 11, 2004).

Successfully executed 2 wars: Afghanistan and Iraq. 50 million people who had lived under tyrannical regimes now live in freedom




Executed a WAR ON TERROR by getting world-wide cooperation to track funds/terrorists (has cut off much of the terrorist's funding and captured or killed many key leaders of the al Qaeda network)



Brought back our EP-3 intel plane and crew from China without any bribes or bloodshed

Started withdrawing our troops from Bosnia and has announced withdrawal of our troops from Germany and the Korean DMZ.

Signed the LARGEST nuclear arms reduction in world history with Russia

Initiated comprehensive review of our military, which was completed just prior to 9/11/01, accurately reported that ASYMMETRICAL WARFARE was critical.

Changed the tone in the White House, restoring HONOR and DIGNITY to the Presidency

Reorganized bureaucracy...after 9/11, condensed 20+ overlapping agencies and their intelligence sectors into one agency: the Department of Homeland Security.

Initiated discussion on privatizing Social Security and individual investment accounts.

Improving govt. efficiency with .8 million jobs put up for bid...weakening unions and cutting undeserved pay raises. Wants merit based promotions/raises only.

Orchestrated Republican control of the White House, the House AND the Senate.

Killed the liberal ABA's role in vetting federal judges for Congress.

GWB signed an executive order enforcing the Supreme Court's Beck decision (re: union dues being used for political campaigns against individual's wishes)

Turned around an inherited economy that was in recession.

Passed tough new laws to hold corporate criminals to account as a result of corporate scandals.


Signed 2 income tax cuts ---- 1 of which was the largest Dollar-value tax cut in world history


Reduced taxes on dividends and capital gains

In process of eliminating IRS marriage penalty.

Increased small business incentives to expand and to hire new people

Eliminated the Estate Tax (AKA "Death Tax") that was taking small farms and businesses from families


Signed into law the No Child Left Behind legislation delivering the most dramatic education reforms in a generation (challenging the soft bigotry of low expectations)

Reorganized the INS in an attempt to safeguard the borders and ports of America and to eliminate bureaucratic redundancies and lack of accountability.

Signed trade promotion authority

Committed US funds to purchase medicine for millions of men and women and children now suffering with AIDS in Africa

Passed Medicare Reform (authorized $39.5 Billion per year for preventive medicine such as drugs and doctor visits as well as included a ten year Privatization option)

Urging federal liability reform to eliminate frivolous lawsuits

Supports class action reform bill which limits lawyer fees so that more settlement money goes to victims

Submitted comprehensive Energy Plan--awaits Congressional action (works to develop cleaner technology, produce more natural gas here at home, make America less dependent on foreign sources of energy, improve national grid, etc.)

Endorses and promotes The Responsibility Era ("In a compassionate society, people respect one another and take responsibility for the decisions they make in life. My hope is to change the culture from one that has said, if it feels good, do it; if you've got a problem, blame somebody else -- to one in which every single American understands that he or she are responsible for the decisions that you make; you're responsible for loving your children with all your heart and all your soul; you're responsible for being involved with the quality of the education of your children; you're responsible for making sure the community in which you live is safe; you're responsible for loving your neighbor, just like you would like to be loved yourself. " -----this quote was too good to leave out)

Started the USA Freedom Corps

Initiated review of all federal agencies with a goal to eliminate federal jobs (completed September 2003) in an effort to reduce the size of federal gov while increasing private sector jobs.

Challenged the United Nations to live up to their responsibilities and not become The League of Nations ( in other words, completely irrelevant)

Nominated strong, conservative judges to the judiciary.

Changed parts of the Forestry Management Act to allow necessary clean-up of the national forests in order to reduce fire danger.

As part of the national forests clean-up, the President restricted judicial challenges (based on the Endangered Species Act and other challenges) and removed the need for an EIS (Environmental Impact Statement) before removing fuels/logging to reduce fire danger.

Significantly eased field-testing controls of genetically engineered crops.

President Bush signed the workplace verification bill to prevent hiring of illegal Aliens
S. 1685, the Basic Pilot Extension Act of 2003, was signed by President Bush on December 3, 2003.
It extends for five years the workplace employment eligibility authorization pilot programs created in 1996. It expands the pilot programs from the original five states to all 50 states. Freerepublic (http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1122114/posts)


Comment#11? That would be me. I had the temerity to say: "Libya had nuclear weapons??" One post, one suspension of posting privileges. Not expecting to get them back anytime soon either. Can anyone show me a 'lefty' website that prickly?

[Man Of Kent]

Originally posted by Uncle Joe
That task was hampered by Bush as much as Saddam (infiltrating the inspection team with CIA spies, so that Saddam kicked them out... smooth move).

Wasn't that Clinton?

[Jim V]

As to what Bush has done, this was what I was most impressed with -

immigration changes (http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/3887721/)

Kinda reminded me of LBJ's civil rights changes during Vietnam

[Aladdin]

Well credit where it's due. That is a good measure he's introduced.

[Aladdin]

Incidentally, here is the info regarding the number of dead and injured by Agent Orange in Vietnam I promised Matadore:

Hong Hanh is falling to pieces. She has been poisoned by the most toxic molecule known to science; it was sprayed during a prolonged military campaign. The contamination persists. No redress has been offered, no compensation. The superpower that spread the toxin has done nothing to combat the medical and environmental catastrophe that is overwhelming her country[...].

Hong Hanh is both surprising and terrifying. Here is a 19-year-old who lives in a 10-year-old's body. She clatters around with disjointed spidery strides which leave her soaked in sweat. When she cannot stop crying, soothing creams and iodine are rubbed into her back, which is a lunar collage of septic blisters and scabs. "My daughter is dying," her mother says. "My youngest daughter is 11 and she has the same symptoms. What should we do? Their fingers and toes stick together before they drop off. Their hands wear down to stumps. Every day they lose a little more skin. And this is not leprosy. The doctors say it is connected to American chemical weapons we were exposed to during the Vietnam war."

There are an estimated 650,000 like Hong Hanh in Vietnam, suffering from an array of baffling chronic conditions. Another 500,000 have already died. The thread that weaves through all their case histories is defoliants deployed by the US military during the war. Some of the victims are veterans who were doused in these chemicals during the war, others are farmers who lived off land that was sprayed. The second generation are the sons and daughters of war veterans, or children born to parents who lived on contaminated land. Now there is a third generation, the grandchildren of the war and its victims.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/weekend/story/0,3605,923715,00.html

[Clandestine]

Although, do note Jim that this very issue was one of the planks upon which the GOP virulently assailed and inevitably ousted Grey Davis from the California Governorship. It hasn't sat well with many other conservatives in Congress.

Tis another diversionary political ploy to deflect attention away from the myriad of exposed duplicities, corporate cronyism and foreign policy blunders committed by this admin.

[LabRat]

Thank you Uncle Joe.

Your list of Bush’s achievements is impressing.

Summarising this all ( though you have included only “good” things there, right?) I may say that it illustrates American policy, a road on which America is rolling down and that warm place in what it’s rolling quite well.
Following conclusions may be made:
1. Even neo-conservatives can do not so bad things sometimes ( randomly) like rejecting Kyoto and modest tax cuts.
2. Trying to save their conservative image neo-cons have to do some popular though practically meaningless gestures like banning abortion and saving those odds and ends of the Second Amendment Americans still have. ( of course Bush have no intention to restore the 2nd Amendment. It supported the right of citizens to have any weapon available at the time, not pistols only, and were made to protect them not from burglars but from the Government itself. If American Constitution wasn’t a piece of toilet paper this would mean Americans could have machineguns, tanks, missiles, submarines, jet-fighters…and use it against tax collectors)
3. This all can’t change the main course of America toward more Socialism. More State’s spending, more State’s programmes, more State’s control, more rules, restrictions, regulations, more redistributing wealth from one groups to others. Some things as NoChildLeftBehind, Medicare reforms, Patriot Act, forcible establishing democracy overseas ( World Revolution using communist jargon), attempts to control family through constitutional acts, donations for religious organisations, fingerprinting foreigners etc are measures any communist dictator would be proud of. In some things Bush even goes further like restoring sea piracy. Now American Navy can add proudly scull and bones to stars and stripes.

[Blagsta]

Your continung assertion that the US is socialist is bizarre!

[LabRat]

Originally posted by Blagsta
Your continung assertion that the US is socialist is bizarre!
Find the programme of American Socialist Party of 1910-20s. Compare it with modern American laws. Everything they wanted is done.

[Blagsta]

Oh for fucks sake. Read a political dictionary and then tell me the US is socialist. :rolleyes:

[Uncle Joe]

Originally posted by Man Of Kent
Wasn't that Clinton? You're right, that happened under Clinton's watch...

CIA Was With UN in Iraq for Years,
Ex-Inspector Says (http://www.globalpolicy.org/security/issues/iraq0223.htm)

'In the book, Ritter provides a detailed description of his work for the United Nations, which began in 1991 and ended last summer when he resigned in part in protest over what he described as the Clinton administration's meddling in the work of the inspectors. In repeated interviews since his resignation, Ritter has alleged that the administration hindered the arms inspections out of fear of direct confrontations with Iraq.

Ritter says in the book that the CIA became actively involved in inspections in 1992, the year after the United Nations began weapons inspections in the search for evidence of chemical and biological weapons in Iraq. In the book, he says that he and a senior CIA official -- identified in the book by a pseudonym, Moe Dobbs -- worked closely together "to plan the operational and intelligence support for the largest and most complex inspections ever undertaken by Unscom." Ritter said that beginning in the spring of 1992, "Dobbs and his men provided seasoned personnel who could operate vehicles, organize logistics, run communications -- simply put, the kind of people you want around you in a difficult situation."

The agency played its largest role, he said, in an inspection in June 1996, when nine "CIA paramilitary covert operators" were placed on a team seeking to inspect compounds maintained by the elite Iraqi Republican Guards. The compounds were believed to be hiding evidence of Iraq's programs to build chemical and biological weapons. The Iraqis tried to block the inspection, resulting in a standoff that lasted several days and brought swift condemnation of Iraq by the United Nations.

That same month, Iraqi dissidents made a coup attempt against Saddam. The coup failed, and Ritter said he later became suspicious of the timing of the coup attempt and of the presence of an Unscom inspection team that included several of the agency's employees. "There was no proof of Dobbs' involvement, but there was a strong set of coincidences," he said. "The inspection was directed almost exclusively at Special Republican Guard sites; the coup plotters were from some of the same units we were trying to inspect."

While working for the United Nations, Ritter, a former Marine intelligence officer, was paid by the Defense Department; he was considered to be on loan to Unscom. "We have reminded Ritter of his responsibilities, and we just leave it at that," said David Rigby, a spokesman for the Defense Threat Reduction Agency, the Pentagon agency that had Ritter under contract. The Pentagon has argued that under his contract, Ritter is required to submit the book for a security review if it contains any information, classified or unclassified, about his work for the United Nations.

Ritter and his lawyer have said that the Pentagon's demand is an effort to intimidate him into silence and that the contract cannot be enforced since it expired last year.'

[Clandestine]

Indeed, and yet could we expect our right wing chums to acknowledge how quickly any inspectors would be thrown out of the US if it were discovered that foreign intelligence officers were part of the inspection team composition? Obviously sovereignty only counts when its our sovereignty.

Back to the actual topic of lies, here's an interesting window into the integrity of the head honcho behind the militant posture of the current regime...

Rumsfeld caught in his own lie (http://www.moveon.org/censure/caughtonvideo/)

[Renzo]

Originally posted by Clandestine
Indeed, and yet could we expect our right wing chums to acknowledge how quickly any inspectors would be thrown out of the US if it were discovered that foreign intelligence officers were part of the inspection team composition? Obviously sovereignty only counts when its our sovereignty.

Back to the actual topic of lies, here's an interesting window into the integrity of the head honcho behind the militant posture of the current regime...

Rumsfeld caught in his own lie (http://www.moveon.org/censure/caughtonvideo/)

heheh

[Clandestine]

"Well you see, he had....we believed.... ummmmm...." Try the truth for a change Rummy! :rolleyes:

[Teen Spirit]

Isn't it funny how people support the invasion of Iraq and even Vietnam even though the corruption of the US government has been exposed on numerous occasions?

People say 9/11 was a horrendous act, and I agree, it was,and then they scream for justice and all that other bullshit. The sad truth is that 9/11 is probably the best thing that ever happened for Bush because he has been able to gather the support of the american people by broadcasting his propaganda about "the war on terror" and divert their attention from the country's economy, which is quite frankly in the shit.

Have you ever watched an american news channel? It makes me sick how they actually get away with that amout of worthless propaganda... if any of that was screened on the BBC in the UK there would be an outcry!

And isnt it funny how killing litterally millions in Vietnam is OK because they were at "war", but its not ok for terrorists to kill hundreds in the 9/11 attacks? WHAT BULLSHIT!!!!

If anyone says the attacks on Vietnam or Iraq or Afghanistan or whatever other third world country the us feel like invading is justified, then as far as im concerened they are saying the 9/11 attacks were justified, and infact the terrorists are freedom fighters.

The sad thing is that most people dont read up on this stuff, or gather thier information from first class publications such as "The Sun".

And these terrorist attacks, in all thier inhuman butchering sadism, would not have ever happened if the damn americans had followed the god damn geneva convention like everybody else, but its too much to ask.

Israel was created pretty much in an unlawful manner, but the americans were all for it, because the loss of human life not just for the short time, but also during generations of fighting, is ok for them, as long as they have a nice westernised state along with hundreds of nuclear missles and military supplies right smack bang in the middle of the middle east, should they feel like invading another country.

ANYONE who says any of the wars started by those stupid arseholes in the whitehouse is justified is not only misguided, but deserves my pity for not being able to see past the lies and propaganda that is the governments of both america and the uk.

wow it feels good to rant...

[LabRat]

Surely true.
It seems Bush and Osama play in the same team.

[Uncle Joe]

Originally posted by Teen Spirit
And isnt it funny how killing litterally millions in Vietnam is OK because they were at "war", but its not ok for terrorists to kill hundreds in the 9/11 attacks? 'Killing literally a hundred or so thousand' would probably be more accurate. You're more than likely to to be torn to shreds over the rest of your post as well...

[Globe]

Originally posted by Uncle Joe
'Killing literally a hundred or so thousand' would probably be more accurate. You're more than likely to to be torn to shreds over the rest of your post as well...

What we have here is the definitive example of the ignoranace of youth, emboldened by the likes of you, regurgitating the pablum spoonfed, by the likes of you... carrying on the legacy of... you.

[Aladdin]

Try not to dig yourself deeper into the hole Thanatos... it ain't a pretty sight.

Do you have any thoughts about the half million people killed and 600,000 severely injured/deformed by Agent Orange alone?

You should, some of them being your own comrades.

How noble of your government to use the chemical indiscriminately even though it was fully aware of the side effects :rolleyes:

[Teen Spirit]

Originally posted by Uncle Joe
'Killing literally a hundred or so thousand' would probably be more accurate. You're more than likely to to be torn to shreds over the rest of your post as well...

ok say 9/11 was a hundred thousand, it still does not come anywhere near the amount of innocent people the americans have killed...

remember, the american government has been toying with world politics for a long time, and even if they havent killed themselves, theyve aided killing, for example, the whole mess with Israel, or giving weapons to the Afghans to fight against the Russians...

Look at good old Osama, he was behind 9/11, but how could such a man achieve such an act? Could it be his training from the CIA?? Yes it most certainly could. The CIA trained him to be able to put together attacks such as 9/11, but they wanted him to use these skills on the Soviet Union.

So infact we can blame 9/11 on the Americans, who take the blame for all of the other killings listed before.

9/11 is just a form of poetic justice... America's killing spree finally hit them, and they dont like it.

[The Matadore]

So infact we can blame 9/11 on the Americans, who take the blame for all of the other killings listed before.

A crude, biased and predjudiced analysis, made by someone with little or no understanding of international relations and diplomacy.

[Teen Spirit]

Originally posted by The Matadore
A crude, biased and predjudiced analysis, made by someone with little or no understanding of international relations and diplomacy.

You hurt my feelings!!!!:crying:

Now is it that i have no understanding of international relations or YOU only have a narrow minded biased opinion of national relations that result in a basic form of the good old "we are western, we are right" idea thats been going on for hundreds of years? :rolleyes:

[USA#1-TrQ]

Agent Orange,

While I can't argue that the use of Agent Orange was a good decision by the US government, there is debate as to whether or not the side effects were "known" to our government.

Today, veterans are compensated (I believe) for Agent Orange-related illnesses.

However, at the time, AO was used for the specific purpose of defoliating the trees in Vietnam so that landing strips could be created for our military personnel, as well to destroy wooded havens that could put our troops at risk during the Vietnam War. An attempt was made to only use it in non-populated areas, however, unfortunately, sometimes it did not happen that way.

So the goal was not to maliciously hurt people, it was to help our troops win the War. Not a very well-thought out decision, but not a purposeful and knowing attempt to harm people through chemical poisoning (not the Vietnamese nor our own guys).

[BlackArab]

Originally posted by Teen Spirit
ok say 9/11 was a hundred thousand, it still does not come anywhere near the amount of innocent people the americans have killed...

remember, the american government has been toying with world politics for a long time, and even if they havent killed themselves, theyve aided killing, for example, the whole mess with Israel, or giving weapons to the Afghans to fight against the Russians...

Look at good old Osama, he was behind 9/11, but how could such a man achieve such an act? Could it be his training from the CIA?? Yes it most certainly could. The CIA trained him to be able to put together attacks such as 9/11, but they wanted him to use these skills on the Soviet Union.

So infact we can blame 9/11 on the Americans, who take the blame for all of the other killings listed before.

9/11 is just a form of poetic justice... America's killing spree finally hit them, and they dont like it.

Don't forget that the British and European governments have and continued to be involved in similair acts within world politics, not just the U.S.

9/11 was no justice, just the murder of innocents.

[Teen Spirit]

Originally posted by BlackArab
9/11 was no justice, just the murder of innocents.

I never said it was justice, but merely stated that it was poetic justice, as in it is ironic that the american government shot themselves in the foot....

And yes, European countries are just as bad when it comes to such political affairs, they just tend not to invade 3rd world countries so often...

[Uncle Joe]

Originally posted by Globe
What we have here is the definitive example of the ignoranace of youth, emboldened by the likes of you, regurgitating the pablum spoonfed, by the likes of you... carrying on the legacy of... you. Yeah, yeah, I correct the misconceptions of callow youth (because I like to see arguments based on mutually recognised facts), and it's all my fault... Save the fancy shmancies for your book, 'T'. You are writing a book, aren't you, as opposed to just colouring it in?

[Uncle Joe]

Originally posted by Teen Spirit
ok say 9/11 was a hundred thousand, it still does not come anywhere near the amount of innocent people the americans have killed...No, I mean that US forces probably won't pick up the tab for killing more than a hundred or so thousand Vietnamese, leaving the effects of AO aside, which has been addressed on another thread (wait, that was a Rage Report (http://www.ragereport.com//phpbb/nfphpbb/viewtopic.php?t=1837&sid=8b883d1e1f61f15865cc950ebf13f98b) thread).

About three thousand innocents lost their lives on 911 (actually I believe it's dipped beneath that mark now, after initial speculation that more than 6,000 might have died). Not just 'hundreds'.

[Teen Spirit]

You cant leave the effects of AO aside, not after the amount of lives it claimed. So the US government says they werent aware of the side effects, this is coming from the same organisation that said Iraq has WMDs. hmmmmmmm yeh they really have a great reputation for telling the truth dont they? :rolleyes:

And their argument for using AO? They needed it to clear out the jungle for thier troups right? well fair enough, and while we're at it why dont we say Osama flew planes into the world trade centre because he wanted attention to his cause rather than being dismissed, another fair and just point.

The damn government are no better than the terrorists, and seeing that people say its ok to hunt them down and kill them, i think it would be apropriate to issue the same punishment to George Bush and his chums.

And before you say terrorist attacks are different than valid acts of wars by the americans or whoever else, they are not. If its ok for american bombers to obliterate civilian structures in Iraq or Afghanistan or Palestine (the latter being american bombers with Israeli pilots), then surely the respective countries have the right to do the same? The trouble is that they cannot afford such expensive pieces of machinery, so they must use the next best thing, hijacked planes and explosives strapped onto thier chests. It all results in the loss of human life, except the "terrorists" are made out to be evil bogeymen lurking in every airport and american soldiers are made out to be "heroes and patriots protecting the country"

They all deserve the same punishment because they are all in the same boat.

[Aladdin]

Originally posted by USA#1-TrQ
Agent Orange,

While I can't argue that the use of Agent Orange was a good decision by the US government, there is debate as to whether or not the side effects were "known" to our government.

Today, veterans are compensated (I believe) for Agent Orange-related illnesses.

However, at the time, AO was used for the specific purpose of defoliating the trees in Vietnam so that landing strips could be created for our military personnel, as well to destroy wooded havens that could put our troops at risk during the Vietnam War. An attempt was made to only use it in non-populated areas, however, unfortunately, sometimes it did not happen that way.

So the goal was not to maliciously hurt people, it was to help our troops win the War. Not a very well-thought out decision, but not a purposeful and knowing attempt to harm people through chemical poisoning (not the Vietnamese nor our own guys). However there are solids claims to the contrary- that the US government was aware at the time of the extreme toxicity of the agent.

From the link I posted earlier on this thread:

"Teams of international scientists working in Vietnam have now discovered that Agent Orange contains one of the most virulent poisons known to man, a strain of dioxin called TCCD which, 28 years after the fighting ended, remains in the soil, continuing to destroy the lives of those exposed to it. Evidence has also emerged that the US government not only knew that Agent Orange was contaminated, but was fully aware of the killing power of its contaminant dioxin, and yet still continued to use the herbicide in Vietnam for 10 years of the war and in concentrations that exceeded its own guidelines by 25 times. As well as spraying the North Vietnamese, the US doused its own troops stationed in the jungle, rather than lose tactical advantage by having them withdraw. "

[Clandestine]

The full roster of purposed lies which were fed to the American public in order to launch and subsequently escalate the Vietnam War were duly and completely revealed in the Pentagon Papers in 1971. Obviously those who continue to attempt to justify any aspect of that war have selectively relegated all memory of those revelations to the dustbin of intellectual dishonesty.

I suggest before anyone spouts in defense of Washington and the MIC over this war, go exercise your rights under the FIA and sit down for a good long read.

The very actual conspiracy of lies which was maintained through 5 successive administrations (Truman to Nixon) is a damning indictment of the consistency of fundamental policy interest and propaganda by the Pentagon upon the American public.

A taste of what the Papers reveal (http://www.colorado.edu/AmStudies/lewis/2010/vietnam.htm#The%20Pentagon%20Papers)

[USA#1-TrQ]

While I've not read the Pentagon Papers, I do own them. Also, the one who had those paper compiled, Robert McNamara, Former Defense Secretary, wrote a book called "In Retrospect," which outlined his own decision making process and what he considered to be the "mistakes" that he made as well as the mistakes made by the Johnson Administration, the Joint Chiefs of Staff, and the Secretary of State.

In that book, he outlines and mentions more peripherally, what is contained in the Pentegon Papers.

The Vietnam War was riddled with mistakes made by Politicians. Yet it did NOT seem to be purposeful treachery as much as mismanagement of the war. No evil intent, but more than anything, short-sigthedness. :rolleyes:

Trying to keep the War limited in scope, to prevent it from going over the border to Cambodia and Laos, thus giving the enemy (VC and NVA) a haven to regroup, etc.

Intelligence in the field was collecting unreliable data, etc.

NOT maliciousness with evil intent to subjugate the Vietnamese, but an attempt to prevent Communism from spreading, and in that process, they made some gross miscalucations.

Again, NOT evil intent, but definitely mismanagement of the War. :rolleyes:

[Clandestine]

Taking McNamara, who was very much purposefully behind many of the lies, at his word is your perogative. I suggest going to the source and weighing through it as have countless researchers (myself having read a fair portion though not all 47 volumes) have done would open your eyes to what were far more than "mistakes" as you've politely downplayed them to be.

Sorry Traq, but on this score, until youve bothered to confront the source document you really can't dismiss it so offhandedly as anything other than what it is, a concerted conspiracy of lies blown wide open thanks to the patriotism of Daniel Ellsberg.

What is most frightening is that the practice of purposed deceit and public information manipulation it outlines has remained constant in contrived US led conflicts to the present day.

to prevent it from going over the border to Cambodia and Laos

I suggest you review your history of Kissinger's massive war crime in the destruction of hundreds of thousands of Laotians and Cambodians in high flight carpet bombing sorties.

[Whowhere]

Originally posted by lukesh
If I lived in America, I would be voting Bush in the November Elections.

All this attention on Bush as resulted to so much Anti Bush on these boards. Lets look at Chirac now eh? I bet there is loads we can expose about him and France over Iraq.


It's just a pity that if you did vote Bush, some creature comforts you'd miss are:
Free healthcare
Cheap healthcare
Pension
Unbiased education
The right to a fair trial (overturned by the Patriot act)
The right to privacy (overturned by the Patriot act)
The right to live in a relatively unpolluted country
A church that is seperate to state
Corporations that aren't above the law
A government that can't be bought by a corporation


Did you know that Bush's solution to their ever-nearing recession was:
Tax cuts worth billions of dollars, but only to the rich and to the corporations.
Decrease money spent on public services whilst increasing money spent on the military, but not on soldiers.
They are currently developing 3 fighter jets, made by 3 different companies. The joint strike fighter they are making with us is the most superior, but instead of scrapping the other 2 he pours more money in!
US military spending was $362 billion last year. More than the COMBINED budgets of the top 25 countries.
And they can't even pacify guerillas. tut tut.

Yes, I'd just love to live in America.

[USA#1-TrQ]

Actually, I agree with you about the importance of the Pentegon Papers.

But what I am not getting a clear picture of, is exactly what you are critisizing regarding the Vietnam War.

In particular, I am not clear about what you think the US's goal for engaging in that war was? It seems from your above post that you think we were simply in there to subjugate the Vietnamese. And you think the US government was bent on lying to its own people. But the question in my mind, is what do you think the purpose of the "conspiracy" of lies was? Did you think there was a hidden agenda or goal on the part of the USA regarding Vietnam?

:confused:

BTW:
It is probably best to read a wide variety of sources regarding the Vietnam War. Kissinger and Ellsberg were clearly biased. There are many, many more perspectives out there. While I do think it is critical to examine the naysayer's perspectives, it is just as critical to examine the perspectives of people who were in support of the war, and those who are more distanced from it, and not as personally involved. Both McNamara and Kissinger had personal roles in it...of course.

[Globe]

Originally posted by USA#1-TrQ


In particular, I am not clear about what you think the US's goal for engaging in that war was? It seems from your above post that you think we were simply in there to subjugate the Vietnamese. And you think the US government was bent on lying to its own people. But the question in my mind, is what do you think the purpose of the "conspiracy" of lies was? Did you think there was a hidden agenda or goal on the part of the USA regarding Vietnam?.

It is simply another example of the rhetoric of the HATE AMERICA FIRST CLUB. Does not matter the substance, just the opportunity to vent the bile...

Just as MORE WMD are discovered in Iraq - you know, those weapons that were previously used by Hussein, but all of the far left wacko's deny the existence of - and ALL are "bored to tears" and want not to hear of...

http://www.wbj.pl/?command=article&id=23073&

If you avoid reality long enough? You might convince yourself of the "evil of America"...

[Clandestine]

Just keep latching on any tidbit you can find to confirm your denial of reality Globe, hardly surprising. Of course, in your typical intellectually dishonest fashion you fail to note the caveat at the bottom of the article indicating that analysis of it virulence has yet to be determined.

And do tell us how Saddam was going to devastate US home soil with sarin gas filled mortar shells. LOL.

You are a truly paranoid right wing delusional living in a self made world of hate, bigotry and hypocrisy.

[Aladdin]

LOL. Poor Thanatos uses the word reality again.

You really couldn't make it up. :D

Hey Thanatos, you still haven't given us your thoughts about the 500,000 people killed by Agent Orange alone...

When you're ready...

[Globe]

Originally posted by Clandestine
Just keep latching on any tidbit you can find to confirm your denial of reality ...
You are a truly paranoid right wing delusional living in a self made world of hate, bigotry and hypocrisy.

And you? Deny the existance of WMD in Iraq, as they are produced?

Your hatred of America fuels your OWN bigotry.

[Globe]

Originally posted by Clandestine

I suggest you review your history of Kissinger's massive war crime in the destruction of hundreds of thousands of Laotians and Cambodians in high flight carpet bombing sorties.

It is obvious that to you, to fight AGAINST the enemies of the free world, is in itself a "war crime"...

Better the world that Pol Pot visited upon SEAsia, right...? :rolleyes:

[Aladdin]

Excellent! I must obviously be on Thanatos' ignore list.

I'm honoured. :D

[ladymuck]

maybe he's not Thanatos

[USA#1-TrQ]

Aladdin and Clandestine,

What exactly are both of your points regarding the Vietnam War (Clandestine) and Agent Orange (Aladdin)?

What is both of your understandings about "WHY" the United States went into Vietnam? :confused:

I'm basically not seeing what you are both getting at here. Do you think we went in there simply to bomb some foreigners for fun and games or something? Or maybe to cause a few birth defects with Agent Orange for future laughs. :confused:

Exactly what "conspiracy" do you think the US gov't was perpetrating back at that time? Even conspiracies typically have a goal, right? So what are you trying to say? :eek2:

[USA#1-TrQ]

Globe,

You know my thoughts on the issue of WMD....even if they were there...as well as my thoughts on the Bush administration....

Right now, I'm just trying to understand the arguments that others are trying to make by using Vietnam as an example. Just trying to get people to clarify their positions, in order to respond.

[Globe]

Originally posted by Aladdin


Hey Thanatos, you still haven't given us your thoughts about the 500,000 people killed by Agent Orange alone...

When you're ready...

Just as soon as you post your thoughts concerning the travesty visited upon the world in the form of thalidomide, courtesy of you high minded Brit-o-philes.

Evil knows no boundaries, does it?

Or...

One might objectively observe...

When using chemicals, shit happens. Was it planned? No... it was a collateral effect, NOT the INTENDED effect.

Hindsight is 20/20, for assholes. Does your shoe fit? :lol:

[Uncle Joe]

Originally posted by Globe
Just as soon as you post your thoughts concerning the travesty visited upon the world in the form of thalidomide, courtesy of you high minded Brit-o-philes.Do you know which country Thalidomide was originally synthesised in, Thanny, by the Chemie Grunenthal company?

[xicoperez]

What is Thanatos thing? Is Globe the old Thanatos?! Or is it like the Lukesh - BNP comparison?

You are in Spain for two weeks and mixin goes, Luke comes back, we get a new yanker and Thanatos is called Globe... Is baldog a moderator now?

Edited to say:

I want a Ronald Reagan Taliking Action Figure!

If you press his right hand he says things like:

"Hey Augusto! How are the choppers working buddy?"

And many more...

Edited to say:

What?!

Don't Lady Jade and Susie moderate P&D anymore? What is hapening?

[Clandestine]

Oh Thanny, care to comment on the final results of what you so gleefully latched onto as proof of the ominous WMD threat?

OOPS!...again (http://www.golivewire.com/forums/surf.cgi?url=http://jang.com.pk/thenews/jul2004-daily/03-07-2004/world/w9.htm)

[Aladdin]

Poor Thanatos... just when he thought it was safe to go back into thesite and another rumbling beckons :D

By the way, the US government knew of the likely effects of Agent Orange but went ahead with it anyway.

Then again that shouldn't be much of a surprise. When has the US government given a flying fuck about civilian deaths anyway?

I mean, they're fully aware of the horrifying effects of depleted uranium ammunition and the appalling civilian deaths caused by their evil cluster bombs, but that doesn't stop the fucking cunts from using them does it?

Though in fairness the British are not much better regarding such weapons.

[BlackArab]

Originally posted by Teen Spirit
I never said it was justice, but merely stated that it was poetic justice, as in it is ironic that the american government shot themselves in the foot....

And yes, European countries are just as bad when it comes to such political affairs, they just tend not to invade 3rd world countries so often...

Oh wow, what a major difference, forgive me :rolleyes:
I wonder how you would describe it if a member of your family was killed by the IRA.

As for your second statement :lol:

What a classic, suggest you read up on the British Empire my friend if history is too much try a google search on Iraq.

[Uncle Joe]

On the subject of Bush, while I don't think it's worth creating a new thread for, I found this wry little site very amusing, particularly the 'second attempt' link at the bottom...

Prove Bush is *not* stupid (http://irregulartimes.com/stupid2.html)

:)