BNP Supporting Teacher Suspended

[Man Of Kent]

A Roman Catholic school in Solihull has suspended a maths teacher for standing as a BNP candidate in the forthcoming EU elections.

Listening to a discussion last night. the school claimed that it was right to suspend someone whose view contradicted with the teachings of the church. They added that they had no complaints about the standard or his work, and that he had never brought politics into the classroom.

The teacher is a member of one of the teaching unions (can you see the irony in that?) and ay present the union are refusing to support the teacher for similar reasons to the church. In fact the union claims that it would impinge on their "equal opportunities" stance.

So, what are your views...

1. Was the school right to suspend the teacher?

2. Is the union right not to be pressing for his reinstatement?

[Whowhere]

If he'd never allowed his political views to intefere with his work then there was no reason to sack him.
Regardless of the fact of which political party he supports, it's illegal to discriminate against someone for their political views.

[Aladdin]

In a perfect world people would not be discriminated against because of their political affiliation, however nasty this was.

But then again, in a perfect world parties like the fascist, racist, Nazi BNP would not exist in the first place so:

1. Yes, the church was right to suspend him. His political views stand against virtually every principle a Christian denomination (or any religious group in the world) believe in.

2. Yes, the union was right not to support him. His political views clash with almost every principle workers' unions stand for- starting with the right to get work regardless of your race.

[Jim V]

I hate this but libel laws apply to everyone - you can't make a deliberately derogatory comment about an individual without specific facts to back it up.

[Aladdin]

Fair enough. I will give this individual the benefit of the doubt about being an evil scumbag for the sake of libel laws, and retract those comments... though I'm really struggling to think of any other reason why anyone would want to stand for the BNP to be honest.

[budda]

I'm cant really get that worked up over the BNP, yes they are unpleasant, but they are a NOTHING party. The coverage they get FAR outstrips the votes they ever get even in local elections.

I think the school is on very shakey legal grounds with this, I dont think they have any right to fire him over this if it is not effecting his work.

BUT, as a Church school his contract may have bits written into it which cover this.

He has every right to run as a BNP candidate, you may not agree with what he is saying and running for but I 100% agree with him being ABLE to say it.

[Iknowyourmum]

I think its wrong to fire him, Its like saying we have democracy freedom of speach, just as long as you agree with me.,

If your saying fire him because his political views are racist, OK so only racism is an acceptable reason to remove him, what about other political views a strong christian may want anyone who supports abortion baned/fired is that ok then..
This was a catholic school they could remove anyone who wanted to run for labour of tory's as they both support abortion rights.

What about a war starter, Tony's started one cost lots of lives shorly no one who wants to stand for the labour party should be alowd to as they are (could be argued) murders.

I think the BNP should be given much more of a platform and questioned about all their policies not just race related ones, then people would realise that there not a serious party that could be trusted to run the country.

For example having had a look at their website they say that Ulster (Northen Ireland) should never be joined to the republic on Ireland regardless of what the people there want, shorly this is a stupid policy, It would be much better if they regularly had to explaine what they stand for this expose them for what they are.
As marganilising and demonising them actually plays in to their hands, this apperrs to make what they stand for more genuine for those tempted to support them.

[Aladdin]

Yeah I hear what you're saying and you're probably spot on- I just don't have any time for that bunch of ******* **** *** ****** **** ** *****,

[Blagsta]

Basically, the BNP are scum. Anyone who supports them is scum.
He was right to be sacked, they are not a typical political party, they are racist and fascist. Teachers should not be openly racist.
Opinions held in private are fine, but how can someone teach minority pupils when known to be openly racist?

[Man Of Kent]

First of all, I need to point out that the man hasn't been fired. He's been suspended and his contract is due to end in the summer anyway.

As you know, I don't support the BNP I find them abhorrent, but that doesn't mean that I won't fight one of their members corner when I think that he is right. It doesn't matter what his political beliefs are.

Now specifics...

Originally posted by Aladdin
1. Yes, the church was right to suspend him. His political views stand against virtually every principle a Christian denomination (or any religious group in the world) believe in.

So, should they also have the right to fire any homosexuals? What about anyone who isn't actually a practicing catholic?
Why are his view, away from work, relevant to his ability to teach maths?

2. Yes, the union was right not to support him. His political views clash with almost every principle workers' unions stand for- starting with the right to get work regardless of your race.

But they accepted him as a member and accepted his dues, so surely they have an obligation to support him?

How inclusive, and "equal" is an organisation which won't support a worker because of his political views?

[budda]

It really shouldnt make any odds what party he is standing for, if it makes no impact on his teaching ability then he should never be suspended for it.

If he was standing for the Socialist Party would it be right to suspend him?

It makes NO difference which party he is standing for he has a RIGHT to do it.

Free speach works both ways, you may not agree with him but that is FAR from the point.

[budda]

I'd agree totally with the view that they should be made to argue their views.

As we ALL know when we have racists on this board if you try and get them to explain themselves they end up looking like arses.

Making them out to be this big threat will only help them.

[lukesh]

1) In away the school was right to suspend the teacher because it's important to not let children think that it's normal to be a member of the BNP.

2)The Union is wrong about not giving him another chance because he keeps his politics out of school so it's doing no harm and what about free speech? He is allowed to be a BNP candidate.

From out people like Abu Hamza and then we can get rid of him.

[budda]

"From out people like Abu Hamza and then we can get rid of him."

What on Earth are you talking about?!

[lukesh]

Originally posted by bongbudda
"From out people like Abu Hamza and then we can get rid of him."

What on Earth are you talking about?! EXACTLY!

[Jim V]

"From out people like Abu Hamza and then we can get rid of him."

exactly what? That sentance doesn't make any sense at all.

[mixinmusic]

The school has no right to suspend a person for their political views as long as they keep them outside the classroom. As far as I have heard this man kept his views outside the school and therefore private. It is liberals who want a free society for some and yet then contradict their whole policy on that free society by targeting a group they personally do not agree with and discriminating against them. This is blatent discrimination and no liberal can deny that.

As was stated before if someone had differerent views than the catholic church on abortion, homosexuality, marriage etc and they were suspended for their views there would be a liberal outrage yet this man broke no law by being a member of the BNP and until such a time as it is against the law to voice your opinion (outside of course your employment) in society then people have no right to discriminate against that group.

What makes me even more angry is the fact that I know not all members of the BNP are racist scumbags as they are duely labeled by the liberals in our society. I know members of the BNP, I do not agree with their politics yet they are educated individuals and have a lot of evidence to back their call for ethnically homogenous society. Some of them are not racist and many believe it or not are kind practising Christians who would condem any act of hatrid or violence against a minority group. It is this label, the same type of labeling people used to give to Jews in Germany, that makes liberals just as bad as the BNP themselves.

[LadyJade]

As I understand it he was suspended for standing as a candidate, not for holding a particular set of views. I am assuming that if a catholic school teacher organised a pro abortion or gay pride rally, the outcome might be the same. Activism is different from belief.

[Man Of Kent]

Originally posted by LadyJade
As I understand it he was suspended for standing as a candidate, not for holding a particular set of views. I am assuming that if a catholic school teacher organised a pro abortion or gay pride rally, the outcome might be the same. Activism is different from belief.

So, are we to believe that is someone stood as a cnadidate for any other party, then they would also be suspended.

If not then it is the political views he holds which have made the difference.

[lukesh]

Like it says in todays Independant, If you don't support the 3 main parties your some what racist.

[LadyJade]

Do you have a link for that so we can all have a look for ourselves? Cheers.

[Jim V]

Did the Independant really say the Greens and the Monster Raving Looney Party are somewhat racist?

[lukesh]

I don't know where it is, i read it at school in the library, not sure where though, in the letters thing I think. i know why your all like asking these questions because the Independant is a left wing paper and won't say that.

[Aladdin]

In the letters section... so the opinion of correspondants to newspapers are now gospel?

Great! Let me try to find a link to the 2 or 3 letters I've had published to date. You might agree with some of my points more often! :D

[Jim V]

Were asking because it's important that if you say a paper said something, regardless of the political stance of the paper, you should be willing to explain it - especially if what your talking about was a letter in the paper, not an article

[lukesh]

Originally posted by Aladdin
In the letters section... so the opinion of correspondants to newspapers are now gospel?

Great! Let me try to find a link to the 2 or 3 letters I've had published to date. You might agree with some of my points more often! :D you read that paper?



I'm trying to get the library assisant to swap it for The Time, if it doesn't happen it doesn't matter because it's an ok paper.

[Aladdin]

Doesn't the library have all of the major dailies?

[lukesh]

Originally posted by Aladdin
Doesn't the library have all of the major dailies? no, just the independant. it has magazines as well, mostly politcal ones. Only me who reads them lol.

[Jim V]

ask for them to buy them all, all they can do is say no :)

[lukesh]

Originally posted by Jim V
ask for them to buy them all, all they can do is say no :) yep, but they won't i'm ceratin but Iam asking to swap the Independant for the times but they won';t probably because I leave in a few weeks.

[Aladdin]

Do you read Private Eye? I'd advise you to do so if you don't already. Fiercely critical (when it needs be) of left wing and right wing newspapers and politicians alike, insightful and extemely funny.

[Blagsta]

Originally posted by lukesh
Like it says in todays Independant, If you don't support the 3 main parties your some what racist.

I very much doubt it says that.
I'll ask my flatmate when she gets home - she works for The Independent.

[Kermit]

Oh dear. Here we go again.

1. By doing this, all they are doing is giving the BNP all the publicity they need. The BNP will market and milk their "outlaw" status for all it is worth, to try and make them look like they are standing up for the rights that "the Government" doesn't want you to have.

2. This is on very shaky legal ground; political views, however contrary, are enshrined in the ECHR, not part of UK law because of the Human Rights Act 1998.

3. This is a very disturbing development in terms of political freedom. If he had stood as a Labour candidate, or even as a candidate for the Socialists then he would not have been suspended, and the Trade Union would have supprted him. The fact he is standing for an extreme party is irrelevant.

This concerns me greatly, because it sets an abhorrent precedent. Who is to say what the next step is; the Head is a Tory, so if you stand as a Socialist he can sack you? Say in 15 years time the social orthodoxy is that racism is good- anti-racists could lose their jobs for defending the ethnic minorities.

It's easy to ignore this when it's against an abhorrent party, but social attitudes could change very quickly and suddenly it's YOUR views that are abhorrent, and society sees YOU as "the scum who deserves to be killed". Ignore it when they come for your enemies, and everyone else will ignore you when they come for you.

[Aladdin]

I guess you make a good point Kermit. My position is on the presumption that all decent people and societies can tell the difference between unacceptable and acceptable parties... but like you said perhaps we shouldn't trust society to always drawing the line fairly.

[Kermit]

Originally posted by Aladdin
I guess you make a good point Kermit. My position is on the presumption that all decent people and societies can tell the difference between unacceptable and acceptable parties... but like you said perhaps we shouldn't trust society to always drawing the line fairly.

Every person has a different concept of fairness.

With things like this, you must always reverse the question. Instead of it being a BNP bigot, imagine it was a Socialist who was sacked; you would be outraged. And it could be a Socialist next time.

People should only defend an action if they wouldn't mind it being reversed onto them.

[Blagsta]

How can a teacher be expected to teach all kids equally when he publicly espouses racist views? Thats the crux of the matter I think.

[carolina_girl]

I may be wrong on this but being a Catholic school it is private right? Assuming that it is I think that they would have every right to fire/suspend him for whatever reason they wanted - be this differing political or religious views. Parents are paying money for their children to be educated in a manner that they feel fit. I am sure that if an employee professed a different religious view than that of the Catholic church that they would be well within their rights to fire him, as I am sure that they are within their rights for suspending an individual who is active in any movement (political or not) that the Catholic church does not agree with.

From personal experience as well (my parents forced me to attend a Christian school for a portion of my education), I know that my parents and the school expected that if I talked to a teacher about any personal matter that that teacher would give advice that was congruent with the philosophy of the school. This expectation is not there is a public school setting. In a public school it is understood that teachers will have various backgrounds and various opinions on ethical issues. However, as a teacher at a private institution you are somewhat expected to agree with the philosophy of that institute. If you don't, you shouldn't be teaching there.

[lukesh]

Originally posted by Blagsta
How can a teacher be expected to teach all kids equally when he publicly espouses racist views? Thats the crux of the matter I think. nothing gets said in the class room.

[Kermit]

Originally posted by Blagsta
How can a teacher be expected to teach all kids equally when he publicly espouses racist views? Thats the crux of the matter I think.

I think that is a fair comment, although I would think a degree of professionalism would apply. Certainly one's private opinions should have no impact on your employability; I would say the same if the teacher had instead, say, been arrested at an anti-capitalism protest for assault.

In the United Kingdom most schools are state-controlled schools, although, being catholic, the local diocese has to find 15% of the school budget.

[The Doc]

The only thing I couldn't understand when I saw it on ITV News last night (I was watching Jay Leno during BBC News, I wouldn't usually choose to watch ITV) was if he is a teacher, why does he want to run for European government. Or am I wrong and he is just running as a councillour (sp)? Is that why he was leaving at the end of the year?

I don't think a teacher should openly be supporting any party. If someone older had said this, I would find it patronising, but during the teenage years, minds are still quite impressionable.

Then again, if the teacher isn't instilling his opinion unto children in the classroom, then they needn't fire him.

The only reason they have suspended him is because he is supporting an extremist party who are (justifyably) frowned upon and that makes the school look bad. It's like having a sign saying "we tolerate Nazis".

[lukesh]

everyone is entilted to their opinion aint they?

[Captain Slog]

Originally posted by the doc horatio
if he is a teacher, why does he want to run for European government.
Why shouldn't he? People from all sorts of backgrounds stand for election, from farmers to solicitors. Of course, he would have to quit his job if he won.

[xicoperez]

How can a teacher treat a black kid the same, have the same pacience with him when he can't do an ecuation (sp?), if he thinks he is inferior? His beliefs (and militance) does or will affect his teaching in the long run.

[Blagsta]

Originally posted by lukesh
nothing gets said in the class room.

How do you know?

And even of it doesn't, he is still publicly espousing racist views. How can this be reconciled with teaching everyone equally?

[Blagsta]

Originally posted by lukesh
everyone is entilted to their opinion aint they?

Yes. In private. But in this case, he is publicly known as a racist. How can he be expected to teach in a fair manner when this is known?

[BeckyBoo]

Originally posted by Man Of Kent

1. Was the school right to suspend the teacher?


No they should not have suspended. He is a qualified teacher, not sure how long he has been teaching but his work was good enough before so I think he should fight to be reinstated.

They added that they had no complaints about the standard or his work, and that he had never brought politics into the classroom.
Surely if his standard of work was fine and he never brought politics into the classroom then he should be able to go for unfair dismissal ? I know I would fight it all the way.

[Aladdin]

Surely there is a conflict of interests? Can a man who believes in the superiority of the white race and who would like non-whites to be kicked out of Britain be expected to give fair treatment and ratings to children of ethnic minorities in his class?

In any other industry such conflict of interests would deem the person’s position unattainable. I perfectly understand the school for suspending him.

[BeckyBoo]

Originally posted by Aladdin
Surely there is a conflict of interests? Can a man who believes in the superiority of the white race and who would like non-whites to be kicked out of Britain be expected to give fair treatment and ratings to children of ethnic minorities in his class?


He hadnt had any complaints before this so then surely his teaching methods must have been ok and he didnt bring his political views to the classroom.
Sorry but i cant see me changing my mind on this topic, he was unfairly dismissed in my opinion and should fight them all the way.

[Aladdin]

Let me put it this way: if we were talking about a teacher who was found out to masturbate to children's clothes catalogues but who had never molested a child or otherwise broken the law, would you still protest if he was suspended?

[byny]

Originally posted by mixinmusic
What makes me even more angry is the fact that I know not all members of the BNP are racist scumbags as they are duely labeled by the liberals in our society. I know members of the BNP, I do not agree with their politics yet they are educated individuals and have a lot of evidence to back their call for ethnically homogenous society. Some of them are not racist and many believe it or not are kind practising Christians who would condem any act of hatrid or violence against a minority group. It is this label, the same type of labeling people used to give to Jews in Germany, that makes liberals just as bad as the BNP themselves.


HI - can you please explain your use of the word 'liberal'?? :)

[budda]

Originally posted by Aladdin
Let me put it this way: if we were talking about a teacher who was found out to masturbate to children's clothes catalogues but who had never molested a child or otherwise broken the law, would you still protest if he was suspended?

Oh come on, thats really not the same is it.

I'm with Kermit on this one, unless his work is being effected and the school themselves said it was NOT, then there is no grounds for him to be suspended.

[Aladdin]

Suspensions/resignations for 'conflict of interests' are extremely common and accepted within the workforce. Even if there is no evidence of any wrongdoing whatsoever.

And unless every single one of the children in his class were white and British, there is certainly a conflict of interests when a BNP candidate is also a teacher of black/Asian/immigrant children.

[ladymuck]

And unless every single one of the children in his class were white and British, there is certainly a conflict of interests when a BNP candidate is also a teacher of black/Asian/immigrant children.

Not so, it depends on the professionalism he employs in the work-place

[Blagsta]

Originally posted by ladymuck
Not so, it depends on the professionalism he employs in the work-place

Bullshit. He is publicly espousing racist views. That makes him unfit to do his job.

End of.

[Kermit]

Originally posted by bongbudda
I'm with Kermit on this one, unless his work is being effected and the school themselves said it was NOT, then there is no grounds for him to be suspended.

I didn't say that.

It's a very fine balance, as always. I understand the viewpoint that if he is prepared to stand for a fascist party then he could be unfit to teach children, I would just add one point. If he now feels strongly enough to run as a BNP candidate, he has obviously felt that way for a long time; there were no allegations of racism or of poor-quality work before, so to argue that he would now be racist because he's a BNP candidate is definitely misguided. If he had kept his opinions to himself he would still have them; that, aghain, doesn't impact on his ability to teach children fairly.

To use a poor anaology, I despise Leeds United. That doesn't mean I would teach a Leeds United supporter poorly, because I would leave that sentiment at the door. I would imagine that this teacher would.

My arguments are not about this teacher, but about the precedent it sets. Like it or not, the BNP are a bona fide political party, albeit an extremist one. Sacking someone for membership of a political party sets a dangerous precedent, even if, in this case, the party is a disgusting abberration on British politics.

[budda]

Ok, well I can see what you mean Kermit, sorry, I didnt mean to misrepresent you, I didnt read it properly.

And of course there are definate arguements that if he is a racist then he could well be unfit to teach.

But then to ban him if his teaching is not effected just because you dont like the party, thats dangerous ground.

[Blagsta]

Originally posted by Kermit
It's a very fine balance, as always. I understand the viewpoint that if he is prepared to stand for a fascist party then he could be unfit to teach children, I would just add one point. If he now feels strongly enough to run as a BNP candidate, he has obviously felt that way for a long time; there were no allegations of racism or of poor-quality work before, so to argue that he would now be racist because he's a BNP candidate is definitely misguided. If he had kept his opinions to himself he would still have them; that, aghain, doesn't impact on his ability to teach children fairly.

I agree. If he kept his views to himself, then no problem. But the very fact of standing as a BNP candidate is making these views public and in fact trying to spread them. And that is in conflict with doing his job.

[BeckyBoo]

Originally posted by Blagsta
Bullshit. He is publicly espousing racist views. That makes him unfit to do his job.

End of.

Sorry what you have just written is bullshit. His employers have stated they had no complaint at his teaching ability and also he didnt take politic to the classroom.
How can you say he is unfit to do his job ? thats going over the top tbh.

[Blagsta]

Read what I wrote again.

[BeckyBoo]

Originally posted by Blagsta
Read what I wrote again.

yeah I have, and ?

So here we might have a very good teacher who could help to get a child of yours good grades, he could be the making of them having a good education and you still say he's unfit to teach?

As long as he goes to school to teach children and does not debate his political view and does not show any favouratism to white children then let him be, he's doing no harm is he ?
But having said that lets assume he seems to favour a white child he would be classed as racial, when in reality every class has a teachers pet and that teachers pet could be pink, black, orange or puple.

[Blagsta]

Read it again.

I have said that as long as views were private, there is no problem. His views are now no longer private and therefore there is a conflict of interests. How can he be expected to teach fairly and maintain classroom discipline when he is a known racist and bigot?

[BeckyBoo]

Originally posted by Blagsta
How can he be expected to teach fairly and maintain classroom discipline when he is a known racist and bigot?

The same way he has for how ever many years he has been teaching. Overnight he is not gonna turn into a racist bigot as you seem to think.
You cant seem to grasp the point that before this came out he was a teacher who had taught pupils satisfactory and his political views did not get taken to the classroom, so why do you think that he should start now ?

[Blagsta]

Thats not the point. The point is that its now known that he holds racist views and his standing as BNP candidate is about promoting those views. This is in direct conflict with teaching children.

End of.

[BeckyBoo]

Originally posted by Blagsta

End of.

No its not end off. His teaching views cannot just change overnight, he wont suddenly wake up tomorrow shouting abuse in the classroom......ffs
Im not aggreeing with the BNP and wouldnt want to be connected in any shape or form but this fella is not getting a fair deal here in my opinion. Obviously if he started preaching his political views in the classroom or his teaching ability was unsatisfactory then that would be another matter, but as it stands at this current time his teaching is not making any child suffer.
End of.

[Blagsta]

You still don't get it.
Promoting racism (even if it is out of the classroom) is incompatible with treating all children in a fair and equitable manner. Even if his teaching style is fair, the fact that he is openly promoting a racist and homophobic party is going to affect how the children relate to him.

Full stop.

[xicoperez]

If we are talking about children here we must think that the teacher has some influence on the children. Teaching isn't only teaching maths, it's eductaing in all aspects. He might not show it in the classroom, but now the childen know that someone they must respect, someone in an important position is a racist. It is accetable to be a racist. This is not something children should be taught, it would be confusing, they'll find out that it IS accetable when they grow up. Acceptable, not right.

But if he is fired or not should not be decided by the school but by a higher educational organ after an investigation, and when the academic year is over.

And I have not read anything yet on the BNP page that makes me think they are racist. They look like a very nationalist party to me, nothing else.

And please stop all this end of, end off, full stop... you are not moderators.

[Blagsta]

They are a racist party, but they are hardly likely to state "we hate niggers and pakis" on their website are they?

And I can say end of if I like. Who are you to dictate what I can and can't say. You're not a moderator either.

[xicoperez]

Originally posted by Blagsta
They are a racist party, but they are hardly likely to state "we hate niggers and pakis" on their website are they?

And I can say end of if I like. Who are you to dictate what I can and can't say. You're not a moderator either.

Do you have any proof that the BNP are racist?

And I didn't dictate anything, I asked you and said please.

This is not a dictation either, it's a suggestion: Why don't you calm down? Breathe...

[Skive]

Originally posted by Blagsta
End of

Originally posted by Blagsta
Full stop

What's with these comments? Now the almight blagsta has spoken and put everone to rights, no more words shall be said in this disscussion? :p

I think he should be able to carry on. If there were no complaints about his teaching before than nothing is likely to change. He's only a bloody maths teacher anyway, so any political views are unlikey to be pickled up by the pupils.

Next we'll have Jewish teachers getting the boot because there are muslims in the school. :rolleyes:

[BlackArab]

Originally posted by xicoperez
Do you have any proof that the BNP are racist?

And I didn't dictate anything, I asked you and said please.

This is not a dictation either, it's a suggestion: Why don't you calm down? Breathe...

I've been told so by a now disillusioned member.

[xicoperez]

I'll have to go to my local BNP and have a little chat...

That is always fun... :D

[BeckyBoo]

Originally posted by Blagsta
Even if his teaching style is fair, the fact that he is openly promoting a racist and homophobic party is going to affect how the children relate to him.


Links please to show me where this man has promoted racism.

[mixinmusic]

Being educated does not exempt someone from being raist.

I never stated it did. What I said was that I know people who are part of the BNP and are not racist.

To have an ethnically homogenous society would mean discriminating against those of another ethnic origin...is that not racist?

I do not believe so because firstly race is only part of your ethnic background and secondly ethinticity is only a perceived identity which is enforced on us by who we believe we are. Ethnic homogenous societies could be an intermarage of ethnics to create one ethnic group for instance and therefore are not necessisarily racist. There is also no denying the fact that some multi cultural states do not work such as Israel. It is a democracy, indeed a very proportional democracy unlike the UK for instance yet we advocate the division of Israel into 2 states - Israel and Palistine because the multi cultural approach has failed.



Like it says in todays Independant, If you don't support the 3 main parties your masome what racist.

Bullshit.

This is on very shaky legal ground; political views, however contrary, are enshrined in the ECHR, not part of UK law because of the Human Rights Act 1998.

I cant make out what you are trying to say. From my understanding however the Human Rights act is enshrined into UK law and UK courts do have the right to rule on the basis of the human rights act as part of UK law. I may be wrong. The facts however remain in that under the law it is illegal to sack a teacher for their political affiliation or beliefs.

I also agree strongly with what Kermit said.

With reference to what Carolina said. I do not think that is the case. In N. Ireland there are many protestants teaching in Catholic schools and vise versa. It is not the case that teachers must believe in the philosophy of the schools.

The only reason they have suspended him is because he is supporting an extremist party who are (justifyably) frowned upon and that makes the school look bad. It's like having a sign saying "we tolerate Nazis".

I respect your view on this issue however as we live in a democracy it is necessary to "tolerate" nazis as they have just as much democratic right to voice their opinion after murdering 6 million Jews as the communists have of voicing their opinion after murdering 20 million of their own people as of course our "accecptable" parties have after murdering the native North American peoples. If we denied people a democratic right to voice their opinion we are denying them a democracy and therefore we advocate facism.

How can a teacher treat a black kid the same, have the same pacience with him when he can't do an ecuation (sp?), if he thinks he is inferior? His beliefs (and militance) does or will affect his teaching in the long run.

Exactly the same way a Sinn Fein/IRA terriorist minister does for the health and education departments in the Northern Ireland assembly backed of course by the liberals.

children of ethnic minorities in his class

Surely being a Catholic school his whole class is made of ethnic minorities therfore he would simply treat everyone equally badly? :rolleyes:

he didnt bring his political views to the classroom.

He was a maths teacher!! I never ever ever had even the remotest political conversation with my maths teacher!!


HI - can you please explain your use of the word 'liberal'??

I use the word liberal in a very liberal sense.

conflict of interests

How can you state that this man, because of his political affiliation would carry out an act of discrimination on children from different racial backgrounds? As I stated before I know people who are in the BNP and would not discriminate against people and are not racist.

But having said that lets assume he seems to favour a white child he would be classed as racial, when in reality every class has a teachers pet and that teachers pet could be pink, black, orange or puple.

I think in that case that is discrimination by the teacher and in a situation like that I would advocate his expulsion.

Promoting racism (even if it is out of the classroom) is incompatible with treating all children in a fair and equitable manner.

Why? People today are expected to keep their religion out of the workplace in todays society and that seams to work ok so why can this man like every other teacher not keep his politics out of the classroom!

they'll find out that it IS accetable when they grow up

If his political affiliation is not accecptable with society then why does society accecpt this man has the right to be politically active in whatever party he chooses?

And I have not read anything yet on the BNP page that makes me think they are racist. They look like a very nationalist party to me, nothing else

I know there are members of the BNP who join for other reasons than simply racism. It is all very well branding the Green party under the heading environmentalist but there are many members who are part of that party for their socialist policies.


Next we'll have Jewish teachers getting the boot because there are muslims in the school

Exactly

[xicoperez]

First thing is first if you quote someone please tell us who you are quoting. To quote someone click on the button that says "quote" at the bottom right of each answer... You'll have to copy and paste each name and quote after that...

Originally posted by mixinmusic
as the communists have of voicing their opinion after murdering 20 million of their own people

How can such a large group of people still refer to the Soviet Union and other Stalinist or Maoist countries as Communists? All you have to do is study the basics of the political theory and then study how each country was run and you'll see the enourmous differences. Those countries were oligarchies, more like feudalism than communism. Communists did not kill 20 milion people.

Originally posted by mixinmusic
Exactly the same way a Sinn Fein/IRA terriorist minister does for the health and education departments in the Northern Ireland assembly backed of course by the liberals.

I didn't understand a word. Please explain.

Originally posted by mixinmusic
If his political affiliation is not accecptable with society then why does society accecpt this man has the right to be politically active in whatever party he chooses?

Again, I don't understand what you are saying. I understand what you are saying to evryone else, but when you answer me... I'm lost. So please explain this one too.

[Blagsta]

Originally posted by BeckyBoo
Links please to show me where this man has promoted racism.

He's standing for the BNP. If you don't think thats promoting racism, you're more naive than I gave you credit for.

[Blagsta]

Originally posted by xicoperez
Do you have any proof that the BNP are racist?

Do you know anything about the far right in the UK?

http://www.searchlightmagazine.com/stopthebnp/index.php?location=link3

[Blagsta]

Originally posted by mixinmusic
What I said was that I know people who are part of the BNP and are not racist.

The whole raison d'etre of the BNP is racism. If you support the BNP, ergo, you are supporting racism.

[mixinmusic]

xicoperez - basics of the political theory and then study how each country was run and you'll see the enourmous differences

In relation to communism the answer is simple, communist states do not work. They must use oppression to obtain their goals. Marx spoke of the dictatorship of the masses and it was at this period when Lenin was in power in the Soviet Union that he and his government murdered 20 million of his own people. There is quite simply no question of how a modern communist state would achieve the same goals, exactly the same way as a "communist" state before it. The fundamental principle of marxism is wrong. Power of the people is not rooted into economic wealth and people are inherently selfish.

In relation to my previous post I responded to the following comment:

How can a teacher treat a black kid the same, have the same pacience with him when he can't do an ecuation (sp?), if he thinks he is inferior? His beliefs (and militance) does or will affect his teaching in the long run.

I responded with the comment by saying

Exactly the same way a Sinn Fein/IRA terriorist minister does for the health and education departments in the Northern Ireland assembly backed of course by the liberals.

What I mean is there is a stark comparassion of how one day liberals will tolerate one form of left wing extremism from terriotists who do continue to govern the whole northern ireland education system. Martin Mcguniness is head of education in the Northern Ireland assembly, an extremist and a confessed IRA murderer. There are of course other teachers within the Northern Ireland system who continue to support Sinn Fein who are part of the Provisional IRA. If this man cannot do his job independently the question remains, how can the left be so hyprocrtitical and back the position of a self confessed murderer as head of Northern Ireland education.

If his political affiliation is not accecptable with society then why does society accecpt this man has the right to be politically active in whatever party he chooses?

I also posted this above. What I am saying is that as this mans political affialiation is condoned under societies laws then what right do a section of society have to undermine those laws and discriminate against this man.

The whole raison d'etre of the BNP is racism. If you support the BNP, ergo, you are supporting racism.

Not according to the law. Members of the BNP have in the past promoted racism but as the law states that it is illegal to promote racism, therfore why do the BNP exist if they do promote racism and why do the authorities do nothing about the BNP? You may believe the BNP promotes racism and that is a pure normative statement because society does not believe so.

[Blagsta]

Originally posted by mixinmusic
Not according to the law. Members of the BNP have in the past promoted racism but as the law states that it is illegal to promote racism, therfore why do the BNP exist if they do promote racism and why do the authorities do nothing about the BNP? You may believe the BNP promotes racism and that is a pure normative statement because society does not believe so.

The BNP are very careful not to explicitly stir race hate, but they use coded language and implicitly stir. They are a fascist and racist party, plain and simple.

[mixinmusic]

Just as of course the communists are all Jews and the Greens are all tree huggers the BNP are all racists. I know that is not the case but if you wish to continue to steriotype people thats your problem not mine.

[BeckyBoo]

Originally posted by Blagsta
He's standing for the BNP. If you don't think thats promoting racism, you're more naive than I gave you credit for.

You said he had promoted racism, im asking you for proof that he has.
In all honesty I was also being slightly sarcastic because I replied with the same thing as you often do, which is dont write stuff if you cannot back it up with links. ;)

[Blagsta]

Originally posted by BeckyBoo
You said he had promoted racism, im asking you for proof that he has.

He is promoting the BNP's policies, therefore he is promoting racism.

Originally posted by BeckyBoo
In all honesty I was also being slightly sarcastic because I replied with the same thing as you often do, which is dont write stuff if you cannot back it up with links. ;)

Fairynuff :)

[Blagsta]

Originally posted by mixinmusic
Just as of course the communists are all Jews and the Greens are all tree huggers the BNP are all racists. I know that is not the case but if you wish to continue to steriotype people thats your problem not mine.

If you won't accept that the BNP are a racist party then you need to get your head out of your arse.

[lukesh]

Originally posted by Blagsta
He is promoting the BNP's policies, therefore he is promoting racism.



Fairynuff :) how do you know? Proove it!

[lukesh]

Originally posted by Blagsta
If you won't accept that the BNP are a racist party then you need to get your head out of your arse. It is a racist party buy you don't seem to grasp the problem why they are getting votes. You turn a blind eye like the government.

[Blagsta]

Originally posted by lukesh
how do you know? Proove it!

How do I know he's promoting BNP policies? Well he's a BNP electroral candidate. That might give me a clue...

[Blagsta]

Originally posted by lukesh
It is a racist party buy you don't seem to grasp the problem why they are getting votes. You turn a blind eye like the government.

I've explained why I think they're getting votes on another thread.
You dismissed it out of hand.

[lukesh]

Originally posted by Blagsta
How do I know he's promoting BNP policies? Well he's a BNP electroral candidate. That might give me a clue... we both don't have a clue but from the News I have watched on the BBC, he is not bringing his politics into school so theres no problems.

[lukesh]

Originally posted by Blagsta
I've explained why I think they're getting votes on another thread.
You dismissed it out of hand. tell me here now...

[Blagsta]

Have you read the thread?

[lukesh]

Originally posted by Blagsta
Have you read the thread? what thread?

[Blagsta]

Argggghhh! :mad: :mad:

[lukesh]

Originally posted by Aspartame
:lol: Superb! come on then know it all... you explain it here!

[mixinmusic]

Lukesh is right!

[Blagsta]

Lukesh is right about what? :confused:

[LabRat]

Originally posted by xicoperez
How can such a large group of people still refer to the Soviet Union and other Stalinist or Maoist countries as Communists? All you have to do is study the basics of the political theory and then study how each country was run and you'll see the enourmous differences. Those countries were oligarchies, more like feudalism than communism. Communists did not kill 20 milion people.

How nice. So they just pretended to be communists. And ‘basics of political theory’ explain that communists are good boys.
What a miracle! All communist regimes in all communist countries were not real communists although they named themselves communists and followed teaching of communist theorists like Marx. Maybe things are much simpler and it’s YOU who doesn’t understand ‘basics of political theory’?

[LabRat]

1. Everybody has the right to believe in any crap they wishes and promote it among anybody including children. Nobody here doesn’t deny their right to promote socialism although it is much uglier than racism.
2. Any owner of any busyness including private schools has the right to fire anybody he wishes for any reason or without a reason at all.
3. Government-owned schools have no right to fire nor hire nor teach anybody.

[Aladdin]

Originally posted by LabRat
1. Everybody has the right to believe in any crap they wishes and promote it among anybody including children. Nobody here doesn’t deny their right to promote socialism although it is much uglier than racism. Brain-washing or incitement of hatred cannot be imposed on children. As for socialism being uglier than racism... don't make me laugh. There is nothing uglier than racism... with the possible exception of the libertarian bullshit you sprout.


2. Any owner of any busyness including private schools has the right to fire anybody he wishes for any reason or without a reason at all. No they can't. Check out work legislation.


3. Government-owned schools have no right to fire nor hire nor teach anybody. Bullshit.

[mixinmusic]

Lapbrat what planet are you living on, is it perhaps called the United States??

[LabRat]

Originally posted by Aladdin
Brain-washing cannot be imposed on children.
What is the difference between brain-washing and state education?
Originally posted by Aladdin
As for socialism being uglier than racism... don't make me laugh.

Have you seen those pictures from Daily Mirror?
British socialism in action.
Originally posted by Aladdin
No they can't. Check out work legislation.

Hah! Legislation!
Brain-washed sheep only believe that every crap invented by govt is Law.

[LabRat]

Originally posted by mixinmusic
Lapbrat what planet are you living on, is it perhaps called the United States??
United States is the same communist concentration camp as United Kingdom and New Zealand.

[Kermit]

Originally posted by xicoperez
How can such a large group of people still refer to the Soviet Union and other Stalinist or Maoist countries as Communists? All you have to do is study the basics of the political theory and then study how each country was run and you'll see the enourmous differences. Those countries were oligarchies, more like feudalism than communism. Communists did not kill 20 milion people.

How convenient.

Every single Communist country in the world isn't actually Communist at all, because it doesn't fit in with the ideals that Communism espouses.

Simple fact is that for Communism to work everyone has to agree to it. They don't, so you have to force them to agree to it. There cannot be dissenters in a Communist society, so they get shoved off to the salt mines.

[Uncle Joe]

Originally posted by BeckyBoo
Links please to show me where this man has promoted racism. Will this (http://icbirmingham.icnetwork.co.uk/0100news/post/tm_objectid=14193448&method=full&siteid=50002&headline=website-shame-bnp-teacher-name_page.html) do?

Would like to know if he's been suspended on full pay, though...

[Kermit]

Originally posted by Blagsta
I agree. If he kept his views to himself, then no problem. But the very fact of standing as a BNP candidate is making these views public and in fact trying to spread them. And that is in conflict with doing his job.

I think that publically supporting a racist and homophobic party has great issues for a teacher's ability, for more reasons that one.

A black or gay child could not confide in this teacher after he has now come out and supported a party which declares it's desire to see repatriation of all non-British people (whatever the fuck that means).
The teacher now does not have any control of the classroom- even if he is fair and honest, he is now not impartial and any kid who is hard done by him will use it against him. If you have weakness, especially one as glaring as supporting a racist party, then you have no control of the classroom- the first black or Asian kid who gets a bad mark in maths will be shouting at all and sundry that "sir did it cos he hates blacks!"

I think the only thing I find distasteful about the whole thing is that it would only ever apply to the BNP, and not other dangerously extremist parties such as the various Communist ones. It will have to become consistently applied- if a teacher stands as a Communist he or she should be suspended and lose their jobs, because if you are arguing for the violent overthrow of the state it is not right that you are a) teaching the children of the state and b) drawing a wage from the state.

[Kermit]

Good link Uncle Joe, can't say I'm surprised.

Though, as always, I find the attitude of the Trade Union disgusting in the extreme. You can only be a member if you agree with their leadership's views- pathetic. Especially as if he was teaching his kids to hate rich people, and that a violent overthrow of the state was A Good Thing, then NASUWT would be standing right next to him.

Though my opinion of Trade Unionists is somewhere on a par with racist bigots who dent the holocaust. They should be a match made in heaven.

[Bopperz]

There is a lot of posts, so I havent had a chance to read them all but I can give people a little back ground on solihull.
The ex G/F lived there and she was "racist" the amount of times I had to bite my tongue when her mother called someone a packie was desturbing and I didnt see any non-white people ANYWHERE. Everyone in the community hates Birmingham, due to its ethnic make up and it is the perfect breeding ground for the BNP.

Its a really weird place.......... :eek2:

Bopz

Oh to semi-conclude, thought I may be very wrong. It is unlikly that a black or gay child would be in the class in the first place, the parents in the local area probably agree with the teacher and even though the BNP is bad, I don't think he should have been suspended.

[lukesh]

can i point something out... if someone is born in pakistan, they are a Paki arn't they? Because I was born in england and I'm english...

[The Doc]

Originally posted by lukesh
can i point something out... if someone is born in pakistan, they are a Paki arn't they? Because I was born in england and I'm english...

:eek2:

[the sole liber]

Originally posted by lukesh
can i point something out... if someone is born in pakistan, they are a Paki arn't they? Because I was born in england and I'm english...

You realise the term Paki is an offensive one!

Yes they would be Pakistani.

[xicoperez]

Originally posted by mixinmusic
In relation to communism the answer is simple, communist states do not work. The fundamental principle of marxism is wrong. Power of the people is not rooted into economic wealth and people are inherently selfish.

What can I say to that? If you think we are selfish by nature and I don't... there is not much we can argue about.

Originally posted by mixinmusic
Marx spoke of the dictatorship of the masses and it was at this period when Lenin was in power in the Soviet Union that he and his government murdered 20 million of his own people.

I had never heard this before. I read something about 10.000 farmers... If you have some type of source, or more info on this, I'd appreciate it.

Originally posted by mixinmusic
What I mean is there is a stark comparassion of how one day liberals will tolerate one form of left wing extremism from terriotists who do continue to govern the whole northern ireland education system. Martin Mcguniness is head of education in the Northern Ireland assembly, an extremist and a confessed IRA murderer. There are of course other teachers within the Northern Ireland system who continue to support Sinn Fein who are part of the Provisional IRA. If this man cannot do his job independently the question remains, how can the left be so hyprocrtitical and back the position of a self confessed murderer as head of Northern Ireland education.

I'm sorry. I know nothing about the subject, for the same reason I had a problem understanding what you were saying. I was brought up in Spain, in Spanish. Thank you for re-posting...

Originally posted by Blagsta
Do you know anything about the far right in the UK?

http://www.searchlightmagazine.com/...?location=link3

Only what I have read in the link of the BNP itself. Thank you for this link...

Originally posted by lukesh
what thread?

:D

Originally posted by mixinmusic
Lukesh is right!

:D :D I bet he doesn't hear that often :D :D

Originally posted by LabRat
How nice. So they just pretended to be communists. And ‘basics of political theory’ explain that communists are good boys.
What a miracle! All communist regimes in all communist countries were not real communists although they named themselves communists and followed teaching of communist theorists like Marx. Maybe things are much simpler and it’s YOU who doesn’t understand ‘basics of political theory’?

Just because they named themselves communist doesn't mean they were. People define themselves by their actions not their words. Their action were not communists. Not even their words were ffs.

Originally posted by LabRat
Hah! Legislation!
Brain-washed sheep only believe that every crap invented by govt is Law.

:D :D

Originally posted by LabRat
United States is the same communist concentration camp as United Kingdom and New Zealand.

Communist? Did Bush say he was a commie aswell?

Originally posted by Kermit
Every single Communist country in the world isn't actually Communist at all, because it doesn't fit in with the ideals that Communism espouses.


Beautifuly explained...

Originally posted by Kermit
Simple fact is that for Communism to work everyone has to agree to it. They don't, so you have to force them to agree to it. There cannot be dissenters in a Communist society, so they get shoved off to the salt mines.

That was the Stanilist communism. One of the main things that disagree with the theory...

Originally posted by Kermit
can i point something out... if someone is born in pakistan, they are a Paki arn't they? Because I was born in england and I'm english...

And I have a Spanish Passport... so I suppose I'm a spick. But you thought I was French, I mean a frog... :rolleyes:

[Blagsta]

Originally posted by LabRat
United States is the same communist concentration camp as United Kingdom and New Zealand.

Your grasp on reality is tenous, to say the least.

[Blagsta]

Originally posted by Kermit
I think the only thing I find distasteful about the whole thing is that it would only ever apply to the BNP, and not other dangerously extremist parties such as the various Communist ones. It will have to become consistently applied- if a teacher stands as a Communist he or she should be suspended and lose their jobs, because if you are arguing for the violent overthrow of the state it is not right that you are a) teaching the children of the state and b) drawing a wage from the state.

This is nonsense, as communist views do not have anything to do with the children themselves, whereas racist views do.

[Blagsta]

Originally posted by Kermit
Though my opinion of Trade Unionists is somewhere on a par with racist bigots who dent the holocaust. They should be a match made in heaven.

If it wasn't for trade unions, we'd all be working 16 hour days for pittance.

[Blagsta]

Originally posted by lukesh
can i point something out... if someone is born in pakistan, they are a Paki arn't they? Because I was born in england and I'm english...

You really are a dick aren't you?

[lukesh]

Originally posted by Blagsta
You really are a dick aren't you? your opinion.

but it's right though.

[Blagsta]

Originally posted by lukesh
your opinion.

but it's right though.


Jesus Christ! You're not for real are you?
If you think its OK to use the word paki and that it isn't insulting, I suggest you go to Southall and use it.
But I'm not coming to visit you in hospital.

[lukesh]

Originally posted by Blagsta
Jesus Christ! You're not for real are you?
If you think its OK to use the word paki and that it isn't insulting, I suggest you go to Southall and use it.
But I'm not coming to visit you in hospital. lol but they are a Paki though... if they are born in pakistan they are a Paki.

[Blagsta]

Originally posted by lukesh
lol but they are a Paki though... if they are born in pakistan they are a Paki.

Do you ever get punched?
You deserve it. :mad: :mad:

[wheresmyplacebo]

hmm technically if i was spanish id be calling a black person 'negro' because that is spanish word for black

every race gets slang words done for it by other races, it isnt even a real difference and theres nothing to do with it but you notice it and noticable differences seperate groups its natural human behaviour

ie i get called gora in my town cause im white and my area is majority asian, so they can get away with, of course i wuldnt say paki, even if im with pakistani friend and they use it amongst themselves, and they do, cause well itd be like me using the n word in front of black friends, unless i was in a group that thought they were rappers from da ghetto obviously,

so to conclude, we all get it, and shuldnt ideally get it as i dont use that language, i use half cast cause i was brought up with it for mixed black white people, and my best mate uses it cause his parents brought him up on it, but we shuldnt use it

[Kermit]

Originally posted by Blagsta
If it wasn't for trade unions, we'd all be working 16 hour days for pittance.

That of course depends on how skilled you are, and how valuable you are to a company. Free market economics, innit?

Though, of course, I hate to point out that those professions with the strongest trade unions- teachers, nurses, doctors and the fire brigade- appear to work 16 hour days for a pittance, whereas many others with less forceful trade unions don't. Weird that one.

If it wasn't for the destruction of trade union militancy we'd still be at work three days out of five (with the accordant drop in salary), we'd have lower-rate income tax pushing 40%, and we've have the TV being shut down at 10pm. Such is life.

[Blagsta]

Originally posted by Kermit
That of course depends on how skilled you are, and how valuable you are to a company. Free market economics, innit?

Free market economics is responsible for shit wages and conditions. Unions are responsible for decent pay and conditions.

Originally posted by Kermit
Though, of course, I hate to point out that those professions with the strongest trade unions- teachers, nurses, doctors and the fire brigade- appear to work 16 hour days for a pittance, whereas many others with less forceful trade unions don't. Weird that one.

Errrr...I think thats to with them being public sector jobs, not the unions.

Originally posted by Kermit
If it wasn't for the destruction of trade union militancy we'd still be at work three days out of five (with the accordant drop in salary), we'd have lower-rate income tax pushing 40%, and we've have the TV being shut down at 10pm. Such is life.

A 3 day week would be fine by me. Taxes are set by government, not unions and I think the telly shutting at 10pm (when did this happen btw? :confused: I remember the telly close down at midnightish in the 70's and early 80's) has nothing to do with unions either.

[Jim V]

If someone is from Pakistan they are a Pakistani, the term used above is an insult and is racist.

I'm going to give its use the benefit of the doubt this once because the person involved seems to be too uncaring or unintelligent to realise that they being revoltingly offensive.

The use of deliberately offensive terms justified in such a pathetic way will result in a ban.

[wheresmyplacebo]

i wasnt actually using it in a degratory way tho i just used the word as i need to in the argument

[The Doc]

Originally posted by lukesh
lol but they are a Paki though... if they are born in pakistan they are a Paki.

You were told otherwise three of four times. The fact that you ignore them proves that you only ever read what you want to read.

But back to the actual debate, folks.....

[ladymuck]

I think the teacher is a berk if he thought it wouldn't mean the end of his career not that he's a prospective BNP councillor but if he's at the holocaust-denying zog-ist end of the spectrum.

he's perfectly entitled to hold and propagate his views but he can't expect the world to smile benignly on them

[Man Of Kent]

Originally posted by Jim V
the person involved seems to be too uncaring or unintelligent

:lol: Professional flaming...


Blagsta, I really don't understand where you are coming from. Whatever happened to tolerance?

This man has done nothing more than put his name forward for election. That neither you, nor I, like what he stands for is irrelevant.

His policitcs were the same before his candidacy and will remain afterwards. Yet there have never been complaints about his teaching ability. That should be the end of the matter.

If you think otherwise I would take you back to the "if you tolerate this" comments on another thread.

It is not acceptable to discipline someone because of their political beliefs.

End of.

[Blagsta]

Originally posted by Man Of Kent
Blagsta, I really don't understand where you are coming from. Whatever happened to tolerance?

I've explained my position.

[Man Of Kent]

Originally posted by Blagsta
I've explained my position.

Obviously not well enough ;)

Seriously though, are you willing to tolerate people being disciplined purely on the basis of political belief?

Ignore the fact that this man is racist, what his politics actually are isn't relevant to the debate really.

If we tolerate this man being disciplined because his political views don't match those of his employers, what is to stop the sacking of workers just because they support unions...?

[Blagsta]

Originally posted by Man Of Kent
Seriously though, are you willing to tolerate people being disciplined purely on the basis of political belief?

Ignore the fact that this man is racist, what his politics actually are isn't relevant to the debate really.

If we tolerate this man being disciplined because his political views don't match those of his employers, what is to stop the sacking of workers just because they support unions...?

I have not said this. Read what I wrote again, I can't be arsed to repeat it.

[Kermit]

Originally posted by Blagsta
I have not said this. Read what I wrote again, I can't be arsed to repeat it.

Read what MoK actually said.

Your argument is "it's racist and racists don't beliong in the classroom". Which is all fair and good, but doesn't actually answer what MoK is actually asking you to do.

[Blagsta]

Originally posted by Kermit
Your argument is "it's racist and racists don't beliong in the classroom".

No, thats not my argument. Try again.

My argument is that he is publicly espousing racist views. Thats the crux, publicly. If he kept them to himself there would be no problem.

[Kermit]

Originally posted by Blagsta
A 3 day week would be fine by me. Taxes are set by government, not unions and I think the telly shutting at 10pm (when did this happen btw? :confused: I remember the telly close down at midnightish in the 70's and early 80's) has nothing to do with unions either.

Late '70s the telly shut down afetr the 10 O'clock News, if my facts are right.

Taxes are set by Government indeed, but somebody had to pay for the train drivers' inflated wages, and the miners' inflated wages, and the teachers' inflate wages (at the time) and the printers' inflated wages...

A 3-day week is fine if you don't need the wages of a 5-day week in order to pay the bills and feed the kids, but isn't quite so fantastic if the exctortionate levels of taxation are meaning that the money coming in doesn't pay for a shop 'round Tesco.

[Blagsta]

Originally posted by Kermit
Late '70s the telly shut down afetr the 10 O'clock News, if my facts are right.

I think they're wrong.


Originally posted by Kermit
Taxes are set by Government indeed, but somebody had to pay for the train drivers' inflated wages, and the miners' inflated wages, and the teachers' inflate wages (at the time) and the printers' inflated wages...

I think there's other worse things taxes are spent on, than paying people a decent wage.

Originally posted by Kermit
A 3-day week is fine if you don't need the wages of a 5-day week in order to pay the bills and feed the kids, but isn't quite so fantastic if the exctortionate levels of taxation are meaning that the money coming in doesn't pay for a shop 'round Tesco.

How about paying people more? How about bosses taking a pay cut for a change?

[Kermit]

Originally posted by Blagsta
I think they're wrong.

I shall have to check it out. It's what I've been told; I obviously wasn't around to know for myself.

I think there's other worse things taxes are spent on, than paying people a decent wage.

Indeed. But that wasn't my point.

How about paying people more? How about bosses taking a pay cut for a change?

Not really relevant. People get paid for hours worked, it's what happens. For a lot of companies they couldn't afford to give people extra when the electricity was shut off because of striking miners and striking power station workers, so when half the week was lost to the unions people lost money. It's all well and good saying "the bosses should find the money" but a lot couldn't and can't, not unless you work for a big corporate organisation.

[Iknowyourmum]

I started off following this bit its too long now, I refer you to my original post on page 1.
Why dont you start a new thread with all this trade union stuff,
that way more people will take it in and be able to comment.

[Man Of Kent]

Originally posted by Blagsta
My argument is that he is publicly espousing racist views. Thats the crux, publicly. If he kept them to himself there would be no problem.

Again, how is that relevant?

So we know he's racist, does that mean that he is amy less capable than before we knew?

Either we want the best person for the job, or we want the best person (who conforms to our political views)...

[Aladdin]

Surely we must agree that there are certain situations that make a person incompatible with the job they do?

If you find out that a teacher of primary school kids is sexually attracted to children would you let him continue in his position if he had never broken the law?

And equally, if you find out that a teacher is supporting and indirectly promoting racism and hatred, why would you let him continue to teach children with such massive conflict of interests? Even if he has broken no laws, surely that deems him unsuitable for his job? You cannot have such a man teaching children, specially when some of those children might belong to the ethnic minorities his political party campaigns so vigorously and viciously against.

Had the man been a warehouse worker or a brick layer I'd be the first one to say he should not have been suspended. But he should not be in charge of children.

[BeckyBoo]

Originally posted by Aladdin
Had the man been a warehouse worker or a brick layer I'd be the first one to say he should not have been suspended. But he should not be in charge of children.

Thats bullshit, so its ok for as some of you say a 'racist' working in a building site but keep him away from children, total and utter rubbish.

[Iknowyourmum]

Originally posted by Aladdin
Surely we must agree that there are certain situations that make a person incompatible with the job they do?

If you find out that a teacher of primary school kids is sexually attracted to children would you let him continue in his position if he had never broken the law?

And equally, if you find out that a teacher is supporting and indirectly promoting racism and hatred, why would you let him continue to teach children with such massive conflict of interests? Even if he has broken no laws, surely that deems him unsuitable for his job? You cannot have such a man teaching children, specially when some of those children might belong to the ethnic minorities his political party campaigns so vigorously and viciously against.

Had the man been a warehouse worker or a brick layer I'd be the first one to say he should not have been suspended. But he should not be in charge of children.

You have to make the difference beween....

OH i cant be bothered

[Aladdin]

Why should I make the difference between a man who is sexually aroused by children (but who has never looked at kiddie porn, molested anyone or otherwise broken the law) not being allowed to teach, and a man who stands as a candidate for a party that promotes racism and xenophobia not being allow to teach either?

Now if you tell me that the man who is sexually aroused by children should be allowed to continue teaching so long as he does not break the law, I will see your point. But if you believe such man should not be allowed to teach children, even if he's considered no danger to them, then there is no excuse whatsoever for fighting the corner of a BNP candidate who is not being allowed to teach children either.

Different 'offence' but SAME case of conflict of interest/ preventive measures to protect children.

[Blagsta]

Originally posted by Man Of Kent
Again, how is that relevant?

So we know he's racist, does that mean that he is amy less capable than before we knew?

Either we want the best person for the job, or we want the best person (who conforms to our political views)...

I've already explained all this. Try reading the thread properly.

[Blagsta]

Originally posted by BeckyBoo
Thats bullshit, so its ok for as some of you say a 'racist' working in a building site but keep him away from children, total and utter rubbish.

Please explain why its bullshit.

[The Doc]

Originally posted by Blagsta
Please explain why its bullshit.

Yeah, I'd like to know too.

[BeckyBoo]

Originally posted by Blagsta
Please explain why its bullshit.

Has he in any way harmed children ? Id be the first person to jump on the bandwagon if he had abused children in any way, so as we have been told he did not take his political views to the classroom then he should not be banned from working with children. He hasnt harmed anyone. Although now I agree because this story is so big it would cause problems for everyone involved at the school, so its probably best he doesent work there for everyones sake.
I cant comprehend how people are saying this fella is racist so he shouldnt work with kids but its ok if he works on a building site :confused: its ok to work in one industry but not another ? that dont sound right to me.
Racism needs to stamped out fullstop so condoning it depending on what job they have is silly..........isnt it ? pah you tell me cos im confused at your way of thinking.

[Blagsta]

The point is (and its one I've made 2 or 3 times already on this thread), is that holding private opinions is fine. But standing as a BNP candidate is promoting racism, and that is incompatible with being a fair and decent teacher.

[mixinmusic]

What about standing as a representative for Sinn Fein IRA and working as a teacher in a protestant school?

[BeckyBoo]

Originally posted by Blagsta
The point is (and its one I've made 2 or 3 times already on this thread), is that holding private opinions is fine. But standing as a BNP candidate is promoting racism, and that is incompatible with being a fair and decent teacher.

and ive also replied that he didnt take politics to the classroom, so its pointless going round in circles.
So he was a fair teacher before all this ? even though he probably still held the same views. So what you are saying is that you can think what the hell you like but dont stand as a BNP candidate ? He wont have changed in personality or how he sees things overnight, I cannot see the difference to be honest.

[BeckyBoo]

Originally posted by mixinmusic
What about standing as a representative for Sinn Fein IRA and working as a teacher in a protestant school?

again as long as they keep politics out of the lesson and teach like they are paid to do then im fine with that.

edited to add:
My Daughter goes to a catholic school and im protestant, so are all my family but im not letting the religion take the main focus here. This school I feel is the best in my area so as long as she gets a good education I dont care who she is taught by, her education is more important.
However is the person teaching her did take political views to the classroom then thats another debate because id think the same as many people here.

[mixinmusic]

I agree he should leave his political opinions at home however what I would like to know is that someone standing as a Sinn Fein IRA candidate for an election and teaching in a protestant school, do the people who think that the BNP teacher should be expelled from the school also believe these people should be expelled from their schools?

[Blagsta]

Originally posted by mixinmusic
What about standing as a representative for Sinn Fein IRA and working as a teacher in a protestant school?

That would have been a conflict of interest during the troubles.
It might be OK now, depending on the situation.

[Blagsta]

Originally posted by BeckyBoo
and ive also replied that he didnt take politics to the classroom, so its pointless going round in circles.
So he was a fair teacher before all this ? even though he probably still held the same views. So what you are saying is that you can think what the hell you like but dont stand as a BNP candidate ? He wont have changed in personality or how he sees things overnight, I cannot see the difference to be honest.

I really can't be arsed to go over it again.
Try reading my posts properly.

[BeckyBoo]

Originally posted by Blagsta
I really can't be arsed to go over it again.
Try reading my posts properly.

Instead of replies like this do you not think it would be better just discussing this issue with me instead of acting all superior and that you are right and I am wrong (cos thats the impression im getting)?
Just because you have a view it does not mean it is 'right', for once understand we are all different and we are probably not gonna agree on everything, so please stop replying to people with the response you just did to me.

Thank you.

[Aladdin]

Originally posted by BeckyBoo
Has he in any way harmed children ? Id be the first person to jump on the bandwagon if he had abused children in any way, so as we have been told he did not take his political views to the classroom then he should not be banned from working with children. He hasnt harmed anyone.
So in the hypothetical case that a man who is a teacher is found out to be someone who is sexually aroused by children (perhaps outed by an ex-lover to whom this man had confessed) but yet he has never harmed anyone, would you be campaigning for the man not to be suspended?

I cant comprehend how people are saying this fella is racist so he shouldnt work with kids but its ok if he works on a building site :confused: its ok to work in one industry but not another ? that dont sound right to me. Er... because kids are vulnerable? Because he would be in a position of power over them?

I presume that you would have no problem with a sex offender who has now served his sentence and it's back into society if he got a job as a brickie. But I'm sure you would have a problem if the said man got a job as a primary school teacher.

Bottom line: children are vulnerable and thus should be protected from all sorts of abuse or risk thereof.

Is it really that difficult to comprehend?

[Blagsta]

Originally posted by BeckyBoo
Instead of replies like this do you not think it would be better just discussing this issue with me instead of acting all superior and that you are right and I am wrong (cos thats the impression im getting)?
Just because you have a view it does not mean it is 'right', for once understand we are all different and we are probably not gonna agree on everything, so please stop replying to people with the response you just did to me.

Thank you.

I've stated my point quite clearly 2 or 3 times.
I'm not doing so again.

[BeckyBoo]

Originally posted by Aladdin
So in the hypothetical case that a man who is a teacher is found out to be someone who is sexually aroused by children (perhaps outed by an ex-lover to whom this man had confessed) but yet he has never harmed anyone, would you be campaigning for the man not to be suspended?

Er... because kids are vulnerable? Because he would be in a position of power over them?

I presume that you would have no problem with a sex offender who has now served his sentence and it's back into society if he got a job as a brickie. But I'm sure you would have a problem if the said man got a job as a primary school teacher.

Bottom line: children are vulnerable and thus should be protected from all sorts of abuse or risk thereof.

Is it really that difficult to comprehend?

now you are scraping the barrel arent you. We are not talking sexual natures here we are talking about wether this man who incidently didnt take politics to school should lose his job. Can we not just discuss the topic in hand instead of bringing hypothetical cases to this thread.

your all aware on my views regarding sexual things regarding children so you know obviously that i would not want a sex offender working with children.

[Blagsta]

Originally posted by BeckyBoo
we are talking about wether this man who incidently didnt take politics to school should lose his job.

But he did. By standing for the BNP.

[BeckyBoo]

Originally posted by Blagsta
But he did. By standing for the BNP.

ffs are you even listening ? He NEVER spoke politics in his lessons, what he did out of school I have no idea but whilst he was teaching the children he did what he was paid to do which was teach them. Again the school had no complaints about his teaching methods or standards, when are you gonna understand that ?
Anyways im outta this debate, pointless writing the same stuff......nobody is getting anywhere here.

[Aladdin]

Originally posted by BeckyBoo
now you are scraping the barrel arent you. We are not talking sexual natures here we are talking about wether this man who incidently didnt take politics to school should lose his job. Can we not just discuss the topic in hand instead of bringing hypothetical cases to this thread.

your all aware on my views regarding sexual things regarding children so you know obviously that i would not want a sex offender working with children. And yet you would also be against a man who is sexually attracted to children teaching kids, even if he had never acted on those feelings (and therefore not an offender of any kind), would you not?

Why one but not the other?

I would be concerned with a man sexually attracted to children being a school teacher. But I would also be concerned with a potential racist being a school teacher.

Sex crimes against children are despicable but they're not the only crimes or abuse around.

- I'd worry how the man would explain the slave trade to his class.

- I'd worry about how the man would indeed explain countless other things to the children, from immigration to race to the value of human beings to indeed racism in our society.

-I'd worry how the man would rate and treat non-white children.

Brainwashing or racist programming, however subtle it might be, is indeed a very worrying affair. Not as serious as sexual abuse naturally, but worrying all the same.

And that is why a BNP candidate is unsuitable to teach children.

[Blagsta]

Originally posted by BeckyBoo
ffs are you even listening ? He NEVER spoke politics in his lessons, what he did out of school I have no idea but whilst he was teaching the children he did what he was paid to do which was teach them. Again the school had no complaints about his teaching methods or standards, when are you gonna understand that ?
Anyways im outta this debate, pointless writing the same stuff......nobody is getting anywhere here.

:banghead:

It seems to be you not listening.

I'll state the point one more time shall I?

By standing for the BNP, this man is publicly saying that he supports and promotes racist and fascist views.
How can that be compatible with teaching kids? Some of whom might be black, asian, asylum seekers or gay?
Its a conflict of interests.

[lukesh]

Originally posted by Blagsta
:banghead:

It seems to be you not listening.

I'll state the point one more time shall I?

By standing for the BNP, this man is publicly saying that he supports and promotes racist and fascist views.
How can that be compatible with teaching kids? Some of whom might be black, asian, asylum seekers or gay?
Its a conflict of interests. he don't breathe a word to the kids though does he? he is entiltled to his views just like Hooky is buthe tells the young muslims to support him and to bomb westeners.

There can't be a rule for the british and a rule for them!

[Blagsta]

Read the fucking thread you twat. :rolleyes:

[mixinmusic]

Blagsta, you seam to oppse this mans right to teach in the school for the views he holds, yet you would support a member of the IRA teaching in a school who would show secterian prejudice in the classroom and may at some point have to speak to the children about the politics of Northern Ireland.

Why is it? Do continue to condone the employment of Sinn Fein IRA secterian murders as teachers (even when there is a time of stability in N. Ireland Blagsta) alongside this BNP candidate or do you dismiss them all?

[Blagsta]

I really can't be arsed with people who don't bother to properly read what I write, or twist it for their own ends. :rolleyes:

[Blagsta]

For the record, mixinshit, this is what I wrote

Originally posted by Blagsta
That would have been a conflict of interest during the troubles.
It might be OK now, depending on the situation.

Where have I "support[ed] a member of the IRA teaching in a school who would show secterian prejudice in the classroom and may at some point have to speak to the children about the politics of Northern Ireland."?
:confused: :confused:

[mixinmusic]

It might be OK!! It is not a question of maybe, it is a yes or no answer. Is it OK or not?

[Blagsta]

Oh for fucks sake. :rolleyes:

I mean what I say - it depends on the situation. Do you want me to buy you a dictionary?

[mixinmusic]

Oh so when the IRA go out and murder another innocent member of the public and loose their seat in parliament this teacher should loose his job also?

Double standards is it not for an IRA man and a BNP candidate?

[Blagsta]

www.dictionary.com might help you understand some basic English.

[mixinmusic]

I repeat the last question:

Double standards is it not for an IRA man and a BNP candidate?

[Blagsta]

I said it depends on the situation. And I mean what I said.

Buy a fucking dictionary if you don't know what situation means.

[The Doc]

Originally posted by Blagsta
www.dictionary.com might help you understand some basic English.

Oh for Christ's sake. You seem to have more petty insults than well-supported arguments.

You are just a left-wing ladymuck. This is a place for debate. If you want to hurl abuse at people, then go to Anything Goes. I, and several others, are fed up of it.

[Blagsta]

If people can't understand plain English, that ain't my fault.
I've quite clearly stated my position and the reasons for it, several times. I ain't repeating it again.

[mixinmusic]

I have not abused anyone. Please quote me with abuse I have given anyone?

[mixinmusic]

Excuse me I thought that post was intended for me because it had that dictionary thing on it!! Sorry.

[The Doc]

Originally posted by mixinmusic
I have not abused anyone. Please quote me with abuse I have given anyone?

I quoted Blagsta. No one else has suggested you have abused anyone. :eek2:

[mixinmusic]

Again I apologise - check my last post!

[The Doc]

I must have started replying a few seconds too late and not seen your second post.

You might need some lessons on how the quote function works though!:p

[mixinmusic]

yep!!

[the sole liber]

Originally posted by Man Of Kent
Again, how is that relevant?

So we know he's racist, does that mean that he is amy less capable than before we knew?

Either we want the best person for the job, or we want the best person (who conforms to our political views)...

If the school hire him, so be it.

But as a teacher he REALLY should be impartial in his teaching manner. So he shouldn't purposefully mistreat black pupils.

He's racist, who cares? As long as he doesn't transfer his beliefs to his job, I see no evident problem.

[Man Of Kent]

Originally posted by Aladdin
Why should I make the difference between a man who is sexually aroused by children (but who has never looked at kiddie porn, molested anyone or otherwise broken the law) not being allowed to teach, and a man who stands as a candidate for a party that promotes racism and xenophobia not being allow to teach either?

Now if you tell me that the man who is sexually aroused by children should be allowed to continue teaching so long as he does not break the law, I will see your point.

I don't have a problem, hell for all I know the teachers at my kids school could be like that anyway.

So could my neighbour, brother, father, uncle etc...

Point is, this teacher has broken no laws, his teaching skills are not in question.

I look forward to you voicing you support for Liverpool Docks and News Intl for their stance against Unions now then...

[Namaste]

I work with racist people and to be honest it doesn't bother me, though it used to. I'm very left wing myself and don't give a toss what skin colour somebody is, as long as they're respectable and live an honest life. But as long as the people aren't harming anyone, who cares?