Ron Atkinsons comments

[Iknowyourmum]

I must admit I found it funny with his comments lets just remind ourselves of what he said..

Referring to the underwhelming performance of the French defender, Atkinson said: "He's what is known in some schools as a fucking lazy thick ni**er." Atkinson's conversation was picked up by microphones that should have been switched off once the broadcast from the stadium had concluded.

My point/question is he makes this obviously racist remark, yet there is good reason to believe that he's not really racist, he's given support to black players when this wasn’t popular when he was a club manager.
He's obviously worked with black people and not as far as I know been accused of racism before.

Is it possible to say things like this and not be racist, e.g. lets just compare a different example of this?
Ron Atkinson says the same thing about a welsh player substituting Welsh for ******,, He could have said this and he wouldn’t have had to resign and most Welsh people wouldn’t take it seriously.
Can someone make comments like this and not really be racist?


What if it was a black man saying the same thing about a white bastard?

[Aladdin]

He's a racist in my opinion. There is no other way about it. The N-word is unequivocal and even though he might have believed the mikes were off, he was still saying this aloud to his fellow guests, the programme host, the full production team and whoever else might have been in the studio.

Working with black people is not necessarily proof of not being a racist. One comment often heard from racists is that [blacks] are only good for playing sport.

Perhaps Atkinson genuinely sees himself as a non-racist. Perhaps he doesn't believe that black people are inferior and he just lives in a time warp where calling someone a n***** is a 'cheeky' remark :rolleyes: . But it ain't a cheeky remark at all- it's about the most offensive word you can say to a black person.

He should have known better.

[byny]

Originally posted by Iknowyourmum
I must admit I found it funny with his comments lets just remind ourselves of what he said..

Referring to the underwhelming performance of the French defender, Atkinson said: "He's what is known in some schools as a fucking lazy thick ni**er." Atkinson's conversation was picked up by microphones that should have been switched off once the broadcast from the stadium had concluded.

My point/question is he makes this obviously racist remark, yet there is good reason to believe that he's not really racist, he's given support to black players when this wasn’t popular when he was a club manager.
He's obviously worked with black people and not as far as I know been accused of racism before.

Is it possible to say things like this and not be racist, e.g. lets just compare a different example of this?
Ron Atkinson says the same thing about a welsh player substituting Welsh for ******,, He could have said this and he wouldn’t have had to resign and most Welsh people wouldn’t take it seriously.
Can someone make comments like this and not really be racist?


What if it was a black man saying the same thing about a white bastard?

tHIS IS A TYPICAL DEFENCE OF RACISM!! Welsh people would be offended!

[Iknowyourmum]

Wasnt trying to defend racism, just pointing asking if its possible to make such comments and not be racist, eg the Welsh might be offended but not nearly to the extend that black people would be.

I remember a mate who got mugged in london by some black lads and made racist remarks regarding them afterwards, but I know he wasnt racist.

Is a white person using the N word in any circhamstances automaticaly a racist regardless of anything else..

[Iknowyourmum]

Former ITV pundit Ron Atkinson today offered to apologise to Marcel Desailly after making racist comments about the French international after Tuesday's game between Chelsea and Monaco.
And he insisted he was no racist after his comments on Desailly - "He's what is known in some schools as a fucking lazy thick ******" - were broadcast by channels in the Middle East where the live feed had continued to run after full-time.

"I would be perfectly happy to apologise," he said. "You have got to have respect for somebody who has done what he has done in football."

As the furore over his remarks continued, Atkinson maintained that his track record in football, particularly in introducing black players while manager at West Bromwich Albion, proved that he was not a racist.

"It is unbelievable really. It is nobody's fault but my own," Atkinson told Radio Five. "When I finished watching the game, I put my microphone down and am sitting there watching some tapes of what went on for Chelsea.

"And I must admit I was talking to myself, or with myself, more than anybody, having a pop and unfortunately used a phrase which I really don't know how I have said that.

"I had the shock of my life the next day when I was told. Nobody else around me heard me say it, unfortunately the feed was still on and there was a microphone on the table which picked up what I had said. For that I apologise.

"To the people I offended, particularly Marcel Desailly, I would apologise for the comments I made," he added. "It was not an intentional comment, but it was an unfortunate one. I did not even know I had said it.

"I have worked with more black players, I would think, than any other manager in the country and I bet none of them has ever heard me say it to them."

[byny]

Originally posted by Iknowyourmum
Wasnt trying to defend racism, just pointing asking if its possible to make such comments and not be racist, eg the Welsh might be offended but not nearly to the extend that black people would be.



well you've answered your own question really.


It's not the word, it's the context and I'm sorry but if your mate made racist comments about someone - then they WERE racist. How can they not be. It's like a woman here in work who came in one morning and said 'Jesus a big black man just really cut me up on the roundabout' - that is racist...why did she even have to mention his coulour, like it matters??!!

However - if you are attacked and you go to a police station and they ask you to describe the attacker and you say 'he was 6 ft, black with a blue jacket on' then that isn't racist. 'If you said 'he was 6 ft a N****r, wearing a blue jacket' that is racist.

Patti smith has a song called 'Rock n roll ******' which isn't racist ...well - unless someone takes offence and then I guess it becomes so!

[byny]

Originally posted by Iknowyourmum


he added. "It was not an intentional comment, but it was an unfortunate one. I did not even know I had said it.



In other words...his racism is so ingrained that he isn't even aware of it .....DANGEROUS (But no doubt something many many more people struggle with) ...perhaps now he is aware of it he will work through his problems with racism!!

[budda]

I think the word, which we cant say here is a odd one.

Everyone knows that black people use it amongst themselves ALL the time, with no real problems.

Yet, when its used by white people then its racist.

I'm certainly not trying to defend comments like this, its just interesting how the same word can be deeply offencive in one way and just another word in another way.

Words only have the power we give them and I think some people do go out of their way to be offended.

I've experienced racism against me (white) by asians but I was more just surprised and curious than offended.

[Lickalotapuss]

Why is it ok for a black man to use the word "ni**er" and not a white man?? If it is such an offensive word then surely they wouldn't use it themselves. Just a thought.....

[Lickalotapuss]

Great minds think a like bongbudda :p

[Aladdin]

It might appear bizarre, but at the end of the day the word is racist. If some black people call that to each other is because of the shock value. If the word wasn't offensive those black people who like to use it wouldn't do it.

Also, it is painfully obvious that a black person using it on another black person isn't being racist. A white person using the said word is a diffrent matter.

Same reason why Tottenham supporters calling themselves 'Yid Army' is okay, but rivals supporters shouting 'The Yids!' at them is not.

[hobbs]

Originally posted by byny
and said 'Jesus a big black man just really cut me up on the roundabout' - that is racist...why did she even have to mention his coulour, like it matters??!!


in a similar vain, but off topic rather, why does the news, when reporting about sexuality in the church, always have to refer to someone as the gay priest/bishop. they never refer to the others as the straight bishop. why does it matter?

and back to the topic, if people of the same race, sexual orientation want to refer to each other in certain terms, they can, they come to it from an equal footing. I used to have a supervisor who referred to himself as a big fat queen (he did fit that description) but it would be inappropriate for any of us to call him that.

[budda]

I think the reason a lot of white people would use the term 'black' when describing someone is because its an obvious identifying feature.

Same as if someone said "shit, that ginger just cut me up" doesnt strickly mean that you hate all people with ginger hair.

[Blagsta]

Originally posted by Lickalotapuss
Why is it ok for a black man to use the word "ni**er" and not a white man?? If it is such an offensive word then surely they wouldn't use it themselves. Just a thought.....

Context. Reclamation of language etc.

[budda]

Theres that famous Lenny Bruce stand up set where he talks about racist langague. Something like;

"If all n**gers used the word not only amongst themselves, which they already do, but with the oh fays then after a while the word wouldnt mean anymore than, God bless you and I promise to tell the truth, the whole truth by help me god."

[byny]

Originally posted by bongbudda


Same as if someone said "shit, that ginger just cut me up" doesnt strickly mean that you hate all people with ginger hair.

Yes - but the Ginger person would have a right to be offended.

If someone cuts you up it's the cutting up thats bad so race, colour, hair colour shouldn't really come into it! I don't need to know the colour of the mans skin - I'm only inteested inwhat he did wrong. But then I'm not a policeman trying to track him down!!

[Blagsta]

Depends on context (as does everything). Used purely as a descriptor its OK. Used as an insult, its not.

[wheresmyplacebo]

an intersting addition to this on the use of the n word is that the word 'gora' (white person) has been added to english dictionary and well in hometown the amount of times ive been called a gora banjohd (white sister fucker) in their language well is uncountable and not once said a bad thing bout the asians in my area so hmmm and by the way that is the ONLY time people i know use gora

its like the fact the n word comes from spanish meaning the colour black

[byny]

Originally posted by wheresmyplacebo
an intersting addition to this on the use of the n word is that the word 'gora' (white person) has been added to english dictionary and well in hometown the amount of times ive been called a gora banjohd (white sister fucker) in their language well is uncountable and not once said a bad thing bout the asians in my area so hmmm and by the way that is the ONLY time people i know use gora

its like the fact the n word comes from spanish meaning the colour black

So - racism exists in all races/cultures....doesn't mean it's not bad!

[wheresmyplacebo]

no its just that nooone bats an eyelid wherei live if someone says it - possibly cause my town is 70% asian community (east london) - i know id get killed if i called someone a p**i or ni**a - and i dont belive in racism so dont really have the urge, a twats a twat in my opinion regardless of race and my towns full of em

[BlackArab]

Originally posted by Iknowyourmum
I must admit I found it funny with his comments lets just remind ourselves of what he said..

Referring to the underwhelming performance of the French defender, Atkinson said: "He's what is known in some schools as a fucking lazy thick ni**er." Atkinson's conversation was picked up by microphones that should have been switched off once the broadcast from the stadium had concluded.

My point/question is he makes this obviously racist remark, yet there is good reason to believe that he's not really racist, he's given support to black players when this wasn’t popular when he was a club manager.
He's obviously worked with black people and not as far as I know been accused of racism before.

Is it possible to say things like this and not be racist, e.g. lets just compare a different example of this?
Ron Atkinson says the same thing about a welsh player substituting Welsh for ******,, He could have said this and he wouldn’t have had to resign and most Welsh people wouldn’t take it seriously.
Can someone make comments like this and not really be racist?


What if it was a black man saying the same thing about a white bastard?

Employing black people doesn't mean anything I'm afraid, one of my first bosses was a member of the NF. A lot of people will keep their true feelings to themselves as being open about them is unacceptable.

If a black man makes a racist comment about a white person he is a racist, end of. There are no different rules in my eyes.

If you go to the Sports forum you will see that we have managed to discuss the Chelsea game without using racist terms, I'm sure it didn't occur to any of the posters to do so, theres absolutely no reason or excuse for Atkinson to do so.

[xicoperez]

******, coon, jigaboo, spearchuker, porch monkey, spade, paki, rag head, yid, heeb, kike, gook, slant, chink, jap, nip, wop, frog, kraut, jerry, hun, limey, mick, spick, dego, greaser, wetback, honkey, redneck, lukesh, fag, anal invader, fart knocker, turd burglar, shit-stabber, nape blower or pillow biter, poof, dyke...

Just some examples of racial, cultural or sexual offensive slang (Mods, don't erase please, I'm making a point here)... These words are not bad, evil words... :nervous:

I've never liked those little *, that, my friends, is censorship. Someone up there wrote fucking lazy thick ni**er. Are you kidding me? "Fucking" isn't offensive anymore... And what is this of The N word?!

I'm not saying this fella is a racist or not, I don't know him. But I can't say he is just because he said one these words. I must be one hell of a racist homophobic bastard if the rule You said ******, you're a racist applied.

If these words are used in the wrong context they will be offensive. "Leche", milk in Spanish, can be offensive depending how you say it, or that is what teachers told me before throwing me out when I was a student.

Political correctness has gone way too far. My mother never uses the word black when she speaks Spanish (negro) on a bus because she has recieved many dirty looks. And a Spanish friend of mine has problems as her name is Paqui.

Edited to say:

I apologize. I didn't know The Site had an automatic nig*er-detecter... Maybe some of you weren't so PC after all...

[Toadborg]

Nothing about political correctness.

Just about good manners, why do you want to go around offending people? If you know a word will cause undue offence then why use it?

Ironic that the people who complain most about the loss of 'old-fashioned' values such as politeness, chivalry, courtesy etc are often also those who complain about 'political correctness' when reduction of PC seems to be mainly about wanting to be able to be as offensive as possible.......

:rolleyes:

[Kermit]

Teacher starve your child, p.c. approved
As long as the right words are used
Systemised atrocity ignored
As long as bi-lingual signs on view

I was obviously asleep when I heard the massed asses complaining about his description of Totti as "a diving little twat". The words obviously matter more than the sentiment- can't say as though I'm surprised.

[TheKingOfGlasgow]

Apparently in linguistic terms there is nothing inherently bad about taboo words, it the value judgements that are loaded onto them by society. Just thought I'd throw that in.

[Blagsta]

Same with all words. Semiotics innit.

[Kermit]

The full transcipt, from

Ron: "What in heaven's name was f***ing Ranieri thinking in bringing Veron on?"
Second, unidentified voice: "He'll get savaged by the press.."
Ron [in an increasingly animated voice]: "Oh and f***ing rightly so.
"And I'm sorry, but I f***ing think that f***ing Desailly is a cheating f***._ That was wrong."
[Noise from crowd and interference momentarily obscures Ron's voice...]
"He's f***ing been gone for two and a half years! And instead of playing like an old man and_saying 'alright I'll f***ing stay where I can't get exploited'...
"I've always thought that he has no awareness of danger.
"He is what is known in some schools as a f***ing lazy thick ni**er."
[Still Ron, but now shouting]
"That is a f***ing disgusting performance.
"Full marks to them though. They were f***ing different class."

I'm torn, to be quite honest. You can't go around using words like that, but anger does things to people. Read the whole thing and it is just that he is upset at Desailly's inept performance- if Desailly was fat and ginger, another word would have been used, and no-one would have complained- witness Atkinson's tirade against Francesco Totti six months ago, again with him thinking the mikes were off.

But hey, who cares about reasons, we should just burn him at the stake now!

[Toadborg]

Well in fact he promptly offered his own resignation, he seems fully aware that it was a silly thing to do.

I don't think he is really any kind of hardcore racist or anything but public broadcasting is all about image and impression, if you can't control yourself then you aren't up to the job really.....

[marv]

He should of not said the N word it is a word which has a lot of negative emotions towards it

I know that he is from a generation where that it was more apporiate to use it, but its not an execuse.

He was right to resign

[*DEVIL*]

Yeah i do think his comments were wrong and unjustified, being in a position of trust he should not have said what he did, however had it been the other way around and a black reporter had made a comment how Alan Smith for example was white trash from yorkshire would there be any hype and discussion over it? I think not!

But the society we live in is not fair and Ron was wrong to say what he did.

[Blagsta]

Originally posted by *DEVIL*
Yeah i do think his comments were wrong and unjustified, being in a position of trust he should not have said what he did, however had it been the other way around and a black reporter had made a comment how Alan Smith for example was white trash from yorkshire would there be any hype and discussion over it? I think not!

But the society we live in is not fair and Ron was wrong to say what he did.

Give it a rest and get that fucking chip off your shoulder.
Its boring.

[byny]

Originally posted by Blagsta
Give it a rest and get that fucking chip off your shoulder.
Its boring.

:rolleyes:

[dantheman]

Originally posted by Kermit
Teacher starve your child, p.c. approved
As long as the right words are used
Systemised atrocity ignored
As long as bi-lingual signs on view


Manic Street Preachers?

[dantheman]

Originally posted by *DEVIL*
Yeah i do think his comments were wrong and unjustified, being in a position of trust he should not have said what he did, however had it been the other way around and a black reporter had made a comment how Alan Smith for example was white trash from yorkshire would there be any hype and discussion over it? I think not!


I think there probably would be hype, but have you ever heard anyone say that?

[Blagsta]

Originally posted by byny
:rolleyes:

The point is that she always does that. Doesn't care about racism exist when its imaginary and in her head against white people. She doesn't give a shit otherwise.
She has a funny agenda.

[byny]

Originally posted by Blagsta
The point is that she always does that. Doesn't care about racism exist when its imaginary and in her head against white people. She doesn't give a shit otherwise.
She has a funny agenda.

Sorry - I should have read her whole comment before posting the :rolleyes: .
I actually agree with you.

The defence that black people do it too is such a typical response from someone who is too dumb to confront their own racism or acknoweledge that it exists

[Braineater]

If he said those kinds of things all the time, yeah he's a racist.

But I give him credit for admitting he was wrong and resigning.

Unlike certain Tory MP's..........

[byny]

I think it's now come out that he has been saying those sort of thngs for a very long time...shame on ITV for not challenging him before!

[Man Of Kent]

Just a thought, but nowhere in his diatribe did Ron actually suggest that Desailly was inferior because of his skin colour. When talking about racism, we should remember it's about feeling superior...

I agree that the term used was racist, but I do think that this has been blown a little out of proportion.

Ron was right to resign, of that I have little doubt, but I would question whether he is actually racist.

[the sole liber]

Oh fuck off.

The word ****** is used to degrade. People who say that word use it in that context!

Ron IS a racist, irrespective of whether he had black players at his clubs or not.

If he is NO racist, then he shouldn't use words that WERE INVENTED to degrade others BASED on skin colour.

[byny]

Originally posted by the sole liber
Oh fuck off.

The word ****** is used to degrade. People who say that word use it in that context!

Ron IS a racist, irrespective of whether he had black players at his clubs or not.

If he is NO racist, then he shouldn't use words that WERE INVENTED to degrade others BASED on skin colour.

YEP! You are right. Anyone who uses that kind of language is plainly racist and all the 'Yes but I'm sorry' and 'I helped loads of black people in the past' is pathetic !!

[xicoperez]

Originally posted by sole liber
The word ****** is used to degrade. People who say that word use it in that context!

Originally posted by byny
Anyone who uses that kind of language is plainly racist.

Stupid generalization...

[Man Of Kent]

And lo, we uncover the true face of tolerance.

Rather than judge a man by his actions, you would judge him by something he said?

Ron did more to progress the case of black players than any other manager of his era. That is fact.

I agree that his words were inappropriate but I don't think that it automatically means that he is racist.

My son uses the word "Gay" to discribe something as being naff, or pathetic. Does than make him a homophobe? Certainly nothing else he does would lead me to think that way...

[the sole liber]

Originally posted by Man Of Kent
And lo, we uncover the true face of tolerance.

Rather than judge a man by his actions, you would judge him by something he said?

By definition, speech is an action.

Ron did more to progress the case of black players than any other manager of his era. That is fact.


He was a mediocre manager who only won a few cups. He never won the league for example.

I agree that his words were inappropriate but I don't think that it automatically means that he is racist.


Really? Why did he use it then?
My son uses the word "Gay" to discribe something as being naff, or pathetic. Does than make him a homophobe? Certainly nothing else he does would lead me to think that way...

Gay is a term used to SIMPLY DESCRIBE homosexuals. Gay men and lesbians use it themselves, so it's NOT an offensive term per se.

[Lickalotapuss]

Originally posted by the sole liber
Gay is a term used to SIMPLY DESCRIBE homosexuals. Gay men and lesbians use it themselves, so it's NOT an offensive term per se.
Black people use the word ni**er themselves, so your saying thats NOT an offensive term???
Heard it loads "Yo!! Whats up ni**er".

[xicoperez]

Originally posted by the sole liber
He was a mediocre manager who only won a few cups. He never won the league for example.

He didn't? Racist bastard. :confused:

[byny]

Originally posted by Man Of Kent
And lo, we uncover the true face of tolerance.

Rather than judge a man by his actions, you would judge him by something he said?

Ron did more to progress the case of black players than any other manager of his era. That is fact.

I agree that his words were inappropriate but I don't think that it automatically means that he is racist.

My son uses the word "Gay" to discribe something as being naff, or pathetic. Does than make him a homophobe? Certainly nothing else he does would lead me to think that way...

The fact that they are black players should not be important....they are good or not so to make a distinction about their coulour in order to prove how not racist you are is crap in itself...plainly!!


it's the old 'some of my best friends are black' crap!

[Lickalotapuss]

Originally posted by byny
The fact that they are black players should not be important....they are good or not so to make a distinction about their coulour in order to prove how not racist you are is crap in itself...plainly!!


it's the old 'some of my best friends are black' crap!
It's not like that at all imo. In the "olden days" blacks didn't play football because they were black and Ron helped bring black people into the game. If it wasn't for people like him we could still have all white teams playing in England.
So its nothing like 'some of my best friends are black'.

[Man Of Kent]

Originally posted by byny
The fact that they are black players should not be important....they are good or not so to make a distinction about their coulour in order to prove how not racist you are is crap in itself...plainly!!

The prevailing culture then was that black players were simply not good enough to play at the top level. Ron's actions chellenged that perception.

Of course, he could have just followed with the rest of the country.

He believed that that black players were the equal of whites. Not usually the actions of a racist, wouldn't you say.

it's the old 'some of my best friends are black' crap!

Is it?

Sorry, clearly I am mistaken on the true nature of racism here then. Obviously racism means that you promote people on their ability alone, seeing past their skin colour?

[the sole liber]

Actually the first black players (like Clyde Best, Bredon Batson, etc.) didn't play all of their career under Atkinson.

Black people use the word ni**er themselves, so your saying thats NOT an offensive term???
Heard it loads "Yo!! Whats up ni**er".

Which black people? I've never heard Africans or West Indians use the term in that manner. I'd say it's more of a black American thing.

But your argument is a straw man, since gay ISN'T used primarily or historically as a term to degrade homosexuals. ****** is.

[Man Of Kent]

Originally posted by the sole liber
He was a mediocre manager who only won a few cups. He never won the league for example.

So he was still better than most managers in history then?

I'm not sure how his ability as a manager is relevant though...

Really? Why did he use it then?

Because, possibly, to him they are just words. Other people have added the spin to them.

Gay is a term used to SIMPLY DESCRIBE homosexuals. Gay men and lesbians use it themselves, so it's NOT an offensive term per se.

So, his using it in a negative context is fine then?

[the sole liber]

Originally posted by Man Of Kent




Because, possibly, to him they are just words. Other people have added the spin to them.


Huh? If he truly believes that then he has no understanding of human feeling or tact. ****** has A LOT of connotations surrounding it, most of which are historical in nature. Only someone with half a brain would generally use the word amongst blacks.



So, his using it in a negative context is fine then?

But as a I stated, gay isn't an offensive term, per se. It USED to mean happy, but gay rights campaigners decades ago adopted the term. Why would they do that if it's considered offensive to homosexuals?

****** is a term that dates back to slavery and was/is USED to degrade. That's why it's viewed as highly offensive.

[Teagan]

Originally posted by Aladdin
He's a racist in my opinion. There is no other way about it.

Perhaps 'offensive' more than racist?

[byny]

Originally posted by Man Of Kent



Sorry, clearly I am mistaken on the true nature of racism here then. Obviously racism means that you promote people on their ability alone, seeing past their skin colour?

Yes but in that case you don't call then stupid Fucking N****rs and then try to excuse it by going on about how 'black friendly' you are.

It is entirely possible that someone would 'allow' black players into their team because it improves the teams chances, and yet STILL be racist...and his comments have clearly shown that he is!

[Lickalotapuss]

Originally posted by byny
Yes but in that case you don't call then stupid Fucking N****rs and then try to excuse it by going on about how 'black friendly' you are.

It is entirely possible that someone would 'allow' black players into their team because it improves the teams chances, and yet STILL be racist...and his comments have clearly shown that he is!
Why would you want to give money to black people if you was a total out and out racist who hates black people?? Ron has given them a chance to make a good living for themselves, he is agreeing with the club to pay these players wages.

Why would he do that if he was an out and out racist??

[byny]

Originally posted by Lickalotapuss
Why would you want to give money to black people if you was a total out and out racist who hates black people?? Ron has given them a chance to make a good living for themselves, he is agreeing with the club to pay these players wages.

Why would he do that if he was an out and out racist??

OH MY GOD!! I really don't think I can comment on this without losing my rag...................................




Is an 'Out and Out' racist worse than someone who is just a little bit racist!!! :eek:

Just because there are people out there who can be quite pleasant and nice to different people doesn't mean that some of them aren't harbouring nasty and prejudiced thoughts about them...and that includes all sorts of people from different classes, races and culture.

Those comments were racist comments and anyway - everything else that has come out (Including a man who complained about racist comments he made 10 years earlier) just prove it even more.

He rightly resigned, had he not he should have been sacked.

[Blagsta]

Originally posted by Lickalotapuss
Black people use the word ni**er themselves, so your saying thats NOT an offensive term???
Heard it loads "Yo!! Whats up ni**er".

And? Black people can use it to each other, but you can't and neither can I.
That'll be because language is all about context, meaning and intent. And a minority reclaiming a word that has been used to abuse them for 100's of years is fairynuff in my book.
But that doesn't mean that Atkinson can use it.

[Blagsta]

Originally posted by Man Of Kent
Just a thought, but nowhere in his diatribe did Ron actually suggest that Desailly was inferior because of his skin colour. When talking about racism, we should remember it's about feeling superior...

I agree that the term used was racist, but I do think that this has been blown a little out of proportion.

Ron was right to resign, of that I have little doubt, but I would question whether he is actually racist.

The language people use is often a good indicator of how people think.

[byny]

DEVIL - can't PM you your box is full (Fffnnaar Ffnnaar)


so my reply?...


I have never called you a racist....check your facts.

I believe the comments made by the football manager are racist and no amount of discussion about how 'black people do it too' will make his comments less racist.

If you want to use one persons racism to excuse another then fine but I personally don't think it excuses comments like the ones that were made.
:)

[the sole liber]

Originally posted by Lickalotapuss
Why would you want to give money to black people if you was a total out and out racist who hates black people?? Ron has given them a chance to make a good living for themselves, he is agreeing with the club to pay these players wages.

Why would he do that if he was an out and out racist??

There maybe be some employers in the UK who are racist but don't possess the ability NOT to hire blacks because they are black.

Why should that have been any different for Ron??

[byny]

Well...Big ron was interviewed in the Observer yesterday by Michael Eboda, the Editor of New Nation the leading Newspaper for the black Community and at the end of the interview Ron asked Michael if he thought he was Racist...

I kind of agree with the answer Michael gave which was...

"I don't think you are a racist, but I do think you have a racist element in you and I don't think you are aware what racism is..You don't see colour when you are giving a person a job, and that's how it's meant to be, but you come from an era when certain things were acceptable and I think you are quite aware of what those things are. That's when you can become racist. I think that in the instance that you used the term N****er you were racist. I don't think that had Desailly been white you would have mentioned his colour. You might have called him a Lazy bastard, but you certainly wouldn't have called him a lazy, white, Ni***r"


And my view.....

Compare all these - 'Lazy Bastard', Lazy N***er' 'Fucking lazy bastard' 'Fucking N***er', 'thick bastard' 'Thick N***er', 'Thick Lazy N***er', 'Fucking N***er' ....

See how the language used changes things?

[Kermit]

But byny yuou have just disproved your own argument.

What Atkinson said was racist, because of the connotations of the word. That is undoubtedly fact, and isn't being disputed.

However I still take issue with Atkinson being racist. When people are angry they use insults designed to mark out differences between themselves and the insultee- in this case it was Desailly's colour. If Desailly was white and fat, Atkinson would have called him a "fat bastard"; if Desailly was white and ginger, another insult would have been used.

People need to separate meaning and intent- n*gger is a word that nobody should use, but at the end of the day it is just a word. An insult. An insult like any other- a strong insult, yes, but only an insult. It is the context which makes it racist or not; a person can use racist words and not be racist, and a person can use non-racist words and be the biggest racist bigot going.

He resigned, he was right to resign because words like that should not be used. But I find it interesting to see which people are slagging him off as racist and which people are not; it appears to be that those who are honest are defending him, and those who would go to the opening of an envelope, such as Ian Wright, are criticising him. Just an observation.

[Blagsta]

I really have no idea if he is racist or not - I know nothing about him, not being into football.
But - you don't use racist insults if you are aware of the issues. no one I know would dream of using an insult like that (except in jest, possibly).
As I said - language used is a good indicator of internal thought processes.

[Lickalotapuss]

Originally posted by byny
Is an 'Out and Out' racist worse than someone who is just a little bit racist!!! :eek:
And then....
"I don't think you are a racist, but I do think you have a racist element in you and I don't think you are aware what racism is..You don't see colour when you are giving a person a job, and that's how it's meant to be, but you come from an era when certain things were acceptable and I think you are quite aware of what those things are. That's when you can become racist. I think that in the instance that you used the term N****er you were racist. I don't think that had Desailly been white you would have mentioned his colour. You might have called him a Lazy bastard, but you certainly wouldn't have called him a lazy, white, Ni***r"
And you agreed with the last statement so yes there is a difference between and "out and out racist". IMO a Racist is the likes of all the Al-qeada (sp??) where they are hell bent on killing other cultures/religions etc.. Also people from the BNP are "out and out racist" because all they want to do is get rid of all the asians/blacks etc..
Then there is people like me (and i'm not ashamed to say), I have had a lot of runnings with the asians that live in my area, they all walk around with there arms swinging thinking they are everything, they start fights ALL the time on whites on there own when they are in big gangs. An asian was driving towards me on the wrong side of the road and I shouted for him to move over, he didn't just move over and carry on, he got out and put my car back window through with a metal bar. So I have got something against the asians in my area which from all the things i've seen happen is making me a bit racist towards them. I say racist words from time to time but I aint gonna strap a bomb to my back and drive into the mosque not far from my house. I aint gonna shout racist remarks for no reason. But if I was walking through my town and I got started on (again) then yes the racist abuse would start.
I'm probably making myself look like a racist nobhead but the point i'm trying to make is I don't class myself as a racist but at times I can be because of things that of happened to me etc.. or in certain situations. I know this was said earlier but my best girl mate is black, a really good lad mate of mine is Asian, I never say racist remarks to them or even think of them.
I think Rons comments were out of order, but I don't think he is a "out and out racist".

[Blagsta]

Originally posted by Lickalotapuss
I'm probably making myself look like a racist nobhead

A little bit, yes. Understandable maybe, as an immedate reaction to bad experiences, but not a very logical or clever position.
I've only ever been mugged and beaten up by black people, I could easily get resentful, but I'm clever enough to know that its only a minority who are wankers - same as in any group.
Maybe get to know some asian people and your opinions might change.

[byny]

Originally posted by Lickalotapuss
And then....

And you agreed with the last statement so yes there is a difference between and "out and out racist". .

No - I kind of agreed with the answer...

Anyway - this is an interesting view from a black colleague...

I am Black and proud and hate the N word, however used. It makes no difference to me whether it is used by NWA, spelt niggaz (given my loathing of 'gangsta rap'), or Erykah Badu on the sleeve notes of her debut album (a fond message to her then partner: 'you my nigga forever'), despite my deep love for the woman and her music, or by the aforementioned rock group, despite my complete indifference to the genre.


Having said this, there IS a difference between Black people and others using it. The best analogy I can think of is recreational drug use; if I do it to myself, I may be stupid or self-destructive, but it is my choice and between myself and those with a valid interest (family, friends, the law...). If someone does it to me, it is entirely another matter.


As for context, while I can understand the point, it simply is not strong enough for terms such as chink, spic, wog, wop, etc. These words are calculatedly offensive (the idea that the N word originally meant low life is absurd; it was coined as an insulting play on the word Negro). Context does make a difference for some language; I hate being called ethnic, but tolerate it at work. Anyone who called me that outside of work would quickly feel the sharp edge of my tongue! I am less inclined to tolerate (second generation) immigrant and non-white, but they are still less offensive.


Doubtless, many will regard this as political correctness and/or just semantics. I have no problem with that; but I would just point out two things. One, if you have read this, you can no longer use ignorance as an excuse. Two, if you chose not to respect people by acknowledging and addressing them as they would choose, be prepared to live with the consequences.

[girl with sharp teeth]

.

[byny]

How can you reclaim something that was not about you in the first place...isn't that rather like having a number tatooed on your arm to align yourself with the victims of the holocaust??!!

[Blagsta]

Originally posted by girl with sharp teeth
Why? Why can't I reclaim it also?

Are you black?

[Man Of Kent]

Originally posted by Blagsta
Are you black?

Is that relevant?

She speaks english, it's an english word. Why can't she "reclaim" it to make it a palatable word?

[Blagsta]

Originally posted by Man Of Kent
Is that relevant?

She speaks english, it's an english word. Why can't she "reclaim" it to make it a palatable word?

Of course its relevant. :rolleyes:

[Man Of Kent]

Originally posted by Blagsta
Of course its relevant. :rolleyes:

It is a term usually used by racists. You don't have to be black to want to change that...

[girl with sharp teeth]

.

[Aladdin]

I'm sorry but if you are not black then the use of that word is going to create great offense even if you did not mean to use it in a derogatory way. And for that reason alone you should refrain to use it.

It's brutally simple really...

[Kermit]

Originally posted by Aladdin
I'm sorry but if you are not black then the use of that word is going to create great offense even if you did not mean to use it in a derogatory way. And for that reason alone you should refrain to use it.

It's brutally simple really...

Ah, but then it becomes a very interesting discussion on semantics.

If EVERY person changed the meaning of the word from derogatory to endearment, then the meaning of the word would change. Look at how the meaning of the word "gay" has evolved.

In practise if I called a black stranger a n. then that would be greatly insulting, but if I called a mate one then it may not be. It would depend on the friend, of course, but colour isn't relevant, it is the relationship to the person you are calling a n. that is.

But if everyone started using it as a term of affection, it would become one; it doesn't matter what colour you are.

[Aladdin]

If you are friends with a black person and it's obvious to both that the term is being used as a joke between the two of you then it wouldn't be racist. But today it is still not appropriate to describe third parties with that word even if you did not mean to use it in a derogatory way- because the word itself is racist and derogatory.

Black people can use it however, on the simple premise that they're obviously not being racist towars people of their own race.

[byny]

Originally posted by Kermit
Ah, but then it becomes a very interesting discussion on semantics.

If EVERY person changed the meaning of the word from derogatory to endearment, then the meaning of the word would change. Look at how the meaning of the word "gay" has evolved.

In practise if I called a black stranger a n. then that would be greatly insulting, but if I called a mate one then it may not be. It would depend on the friend, of course, but colour isn't relevant, it is the relationship to the person you are calling a n. that is.

But if everyone started using it as a term of affection, it would become one; it doesn't matter what colour you are.

However - if you refer to someone on tv as a fucking lazy N****r then it plainly is insulting and racist. There we go!
If a black person finds the word degrading no amout of white people 're-claiming' the word will stop it being so, in fact no amount of Black people 'reclaiming' it will either!

[Blagsta]

Originally posted by Man Of Kent
It is a term usually used by racists. You don't have to be black to want to change that...

No of course not. But langauge changes meaning depending on context. Maybe you could use it between you and your black mates who know where you're coming from. But use it it any other context and you might well get a smack in the face.

[Blagsta]

Originally posted by girl with sharp teeth
Why am I not allowed to hold certain sentiments, just because of the colour of my skin?

I can reclaim the meaning of the word from derogatory to endearment if black people can.

:rolleyes: No you can't. Not unless its in a specific context where its obvious that you are doing that. Otherwise people will probably think you're racist.

[Blagsta]

Originally posted by Kermit
Ah, but then it becomes a very interesting discussion on semantics.

If EVERY person changed the meaning of the word from derogatory to endearment, then the meaning of the word would change. Look at how the meaning of the word "gay" has evolved.

In practise if I called a black stranger a n. then that would be greatly insulting, but if I called a mate one then it may not be. It would depend on the friend, of course, but colour isn't relevant, it is the relationship to the person you are calling a n. that is.

Exactly. Its about context and intent.

Originally posted by Kermit
But if everyone started using it as a term of affection, it would become one; it doesn't matter what colour you are.

Not really gonna happen is it? Not all black people like the use of the word. Listen to Public Enemy sometime.

[girl with sharp teeth]

.

[Blagsta]

Originally posted by girl with sharp teeth
In which case, surely black people get very offended when other black people use it affectionately - unless they aren't strangers and know that they won't be offended.

If I knew a black person would know the context in which I used it, then there wouldn't be a problem in me calling them such a thing.

I can't be arsed to explain any more.

You either get it or you don't.

You don't.

[byny]

Originally posted by girl with sharp teeth
In which case, surely black people get very offended when other black people use it affectionately - unless they aren't strangers and know that they won't be offended.

If I knew a black person would know the context in which I used it, then there wouldn't be a problem in me calling them such a thing.

Yes - Shock Horror, many black people do get very offended by the use of the word N****r...EVEN when their other black friends use it!!!!!

DO you have any black friends? How do you think they would take it if you suddenly said 'Hello N****r'?
Of course it would be rediculous to use that kind of greeting. What would make you think it was OK...Would you wait a few months and then just chuck the word in 'Casually' or would you perhaps ask them sometime if it would be ok if from now on you called them N****r?

Or would you perhaps wait for them to start using the word (Which of course they would cos, like, rappers do so that means all black people must do right?)!

Some people still use the phrases 'he worked like a N****r' and 'I was sweating like a n****r'...do you know where these phrases come from?

You have no understanding of the issue, a large part of this is because you are white.

[girl with sharp teeth]

.

[Blagsta]

*yawn*

You're white (and so am I) so we don't know what its like to be a racial minority in this country. How can we? We don't know what its like to experience low level racism all the time.
An example - a black friend of mine walks into a pub in Brixton (yes, Brixton, where you don't expect this sort of thing), waves at us and walks over. One of the barmaids rushes overm grabs him and asks us if he's bothering us. No, he's our mate you idiot, we reply. But she assumed, just because he's a big black bloke, wearing FUBU and Avirex etc, that he was causing trouble.
I have no idea what thats like to experience, to be judged on the colour of your skin in your local pub. I don't think you do either.