Musn't Criticise the Darling Israelis

[Kermit]

A Lib-Dem MP makes accurate, but misguided, comments that she can see why many Palestinians are driven to becoming suicide bombers, and that if she was in a situation as desperate as theirs she might consider becoming a suicide bomber if she thought it would help things, and suddenly she's some sort of raving anti-Semite who thinks that the Jews belonged in Auschwitz.

Story (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/3421669.stm)

One quote from the Israelis ambassador really had my blood boiling:

I can tell you one thing, we must stand up against such remarks, which are an incitement against the state of Israel and against Jews.

Quite how slagging off the disgusting actions of a terrorist regime is an incitement against Jews is anybody's guess, and all it does is muddy the waters. Israel are little more than a fascist state, but that does not mean that THE JEWS are fascist filth- merely their Government. The Jews, more than anyone else, should understand this, given their history. The ambasasador is obviously one of the retards who think that killing innocent protestors is OK because they don't kow-tow to the Israeli regime, and he is obviously one who thinks that banning BBC journalists from Israel because they were critical of the Israeli walling process is a suitable way of promoting democracy and free speech.

The Israeli government makes me sick.

[morrocan roll]

Originally posted by Kermit





The Jews, more than anyone else, should understand this, given their history.
exactly ...homeless for thousands of years and they treat their neighbours like this!

[The Matadore]

The suicide bombers make me sick.

[Kermit]

Originally posted by The Matadore
The suicide bombers make me sick.

Oh, very droll.

Please remind me, isn't screwing the Palestinians into the ground INCREASING the numbers of suicide bombers, not DECREASING them?

[morrocan roll]

Originally posted by The Matadore
The suicide bombers make me sick. they make a lot of people sick and a lot of people dead. a lot of these suicide bombers are inteligent family people ...doesn't that tell you something?

[Captain Slog]

Once upon a time my Student Union took it upon themselves to call a general meeting to discuss the situation in palestine. Unsurprisingly it was called off when no-one turned up. I can't understand why anyone in the west concerns themselves with this silly civil war.

The Israelis and palestines are both equally to blame for the violence in the region, but the "Freinds of Israel" and the "Freinds of Palestine" both insist they are in the right. I say we should just ignore the lot of them and their squabble. It doesn't affect me, so why should I care if a bunch of foreigners want to blow each other up?

[BlackArab]

One of the subjects i am currently studying is History, I've just finished Germany 1919-39. I understand the situation that led to the rise of the Nazis and can say if I had been a German desperate and angry during the time I might have joined them.


Its a shame that when someone genuinely attempts to learn why something happens they should be condemned by the press and suffer in their career.

How the hell are you supposed to address a situation without understanding why it happens. Perhaps we should all take Captain Slogs approach.

[morrocan roll]

Originally posted by Captain Slog
It doesn't affect me, so why should I care if a bunch of foreigners want to blow each other up? captain? you wouldn't make captain of the netball team!

[morrocan roll]

Originally posted by Captain Slog
Once upon a time my Student Union took it upon themselves to call a general meeting to discuss the situation in palestine. Unsurprisingly it was called off when no-one turned up. I can't understand why anyone in the west concerns themselves with this silly civil war.

The Israelis and palestines are both equally to blame for the violence in the region, but the "Freinds of Israel" and the "Freinds of Palestine" both insist they are in the right. I say we should just ignore the lot of them and their squabble. It doesn't affect me, so why should I care if a bunch of foreigners want to blow each other up? sorry but i had to come back. lots of civil wars and massacres ...genocides and ethnic cleansings ...limbs being hacked off children and mass hunger. apart from drug taking pop stars we try to ignore it as much as possible and and leave them to it ... in africa.
have a guess at a couple reasons why the middle east is of more concern ...

[Aladdin]

The only surprising thing is that there are no more suicide bombers.

When a people are pushed to the disgusting extreme conditions the Palestinians have been pushed to for the last four decades, people will do irrational or even plain evil things out of desperation. Many Palestinians see such direct action as the only response to the evil oppression they find themselves the victims of. Seeing as nobody else can't be arsed/has the balls to bring the Israeli government into account, someone has to do something.

I guess it is within the rights of the Lib Dems to sack Jenny Tonge from the front bench, if they don't want to be associated with that kind of thing. I just wonder if the Lib Dems would have taken the same action had another MP said publicly that if they were an Israeli soldier they would be shooting dead unarmed 9 year old children too...

[Dear Wendy]

Well, feeling how she does, she could take up a case "nearer" home, and help the RIRA...

(Apart from that I am keeping out of this discussion)

[Dear Wendy]

Originally posted by morrocan roll
they make a lot of people sick and a lot of people dead. a lot of these suicide bombers are inteligent family people ...doesn't that tell you something?

Intelligent family people?
Could be discussed.

And yes, obviously I can't keep out of this.

[BlackArab]

Originally posted by Jacqueline the Ripper
Well, feeling how she does, she could take up a case "nearer" home, and help the RIRA...

(Apart from that I am keeping out of this discussion)

Come on Jacqs, seeking to understand the motives of terrorism is very different from assisting terrorism. You cannot solve a problem without understanding it first.

[Kermit]

Originally posted by BlackArab
You cannot solve a problem without understanding it first.

Blow them all up. That'd solve the problem.

Maybe we're all missing the point- maybe Israel haven't gone far enough. Kill them all, and you'll have no suicide bombers.

Aladdin, in the case of the Lib-Dems I think that they probably would have been sacked. I'm not so sure with the other two main parties though.

[Kermit]

Originally posted by Jacqueline the Ripper
Well, feeling how she does, she could take up a case "nearer" home, and help the RIRA.

You know full well that RIRA and ETA are not in the same situation- not now, anyway.

But anyway, why is trying to understand what drives people to be terrorists such a bad thing? Why is condemning flagrant human rights abuses such a bad thing?

Or is it that Palestinian lives don't actually matter to you, only Israeli ones?

[Blagsta]

Originally posted by Captain Slog
Once upon a time my Student Union took it upon themselves to call a general meeting to discuss the situation in palestine. Unsurprisingly it was called off when no-one turned up. I can't understand why anyone in the west concerns themselves with this silly civil war.

The Israelis and palestines are both equally to blame for the violence in the region, but the "Freinds of Israel" and the "Freinds of Palestine" both insist they are in the right. I say we should just ignore the lot of them and their squabble. It doesn't affect me, so why should I care if a bunch of foreigners want to blow each other up?

It does affect you. The injustice in Palestine is one of the roots of extremist Islam anti-West feeling.

[Aladdin]

Originally posted by Jacqueline the Ripper
Intelligent family people?
Could be discussed.

And yes, obviously I can't keep out of this. It could indeed be discussed...

I believe they are intelligent family people. That far from the perception some have that people of Arab descent have a genetic impulse to blow up themselves when they grow up, they are like the rest of us: people who only wish to live in human conditions, with dignity, and to raise a family and have a good house and a good job. Just like the rest of us.

That many suicide bombers turn up to be university students, even people with degrees further demonstrates that far from being unintelligent, brainwashed ignorants who only blow themselves up because they hate Jewish people and they're looking forward to enjoying 70 virgins in heaven (what about the women bombers- are they promised 70 Johnny Depps when they go to heaven? :rolleyes: ) these people have been made to suffer to such extremes and have been robbed of virtually all hope of a life resembling normal, that they take the ultimate decision in an attempt to force the Israelis to do what no country in the world has.

Extreme conditions will push humans to carry out extreme acts.

[Dear Wendy]

Oh God.
Basially I should have kept out of it, but try telling that to a lightweight having only a couple of beers last night (wonder if Clandestine is gonna imply that I am an alcoholic again :confused: )

The difference in the perceptions on this board regardng this case is well-known, and I really don't have the need to prove that further.

Originally posted by Aladdin


That many suicide bombers turn up to be university students, even people with degrees :p

[BlackArab]

How can the perceptions on this case be well known when the post is only two days old eh? eh?

;)

ps stop jumping in to tell us your not taking part, Lightweight!

:p

[Clandestine]

Don't recall ever suggesting you were an alcoholic.

I do however cite you for continuing with your dismissive refusal to demonstrate substantive argumentation to support your defence of the illicit actions of the Israeli government toward Palestinians (which have gone on since prior to the very founding of the state to the present day).

Given that the Zionist movement which gave rise to the creation of modern secular Israel was European in origins as were the successive waves of immigrants, the moniker of "anti-semite" imposed upon any who dare question Israeli policies is itself a misnomer. The Palestinians are the predominate "semites" of the two populations making the Israeli government the actual anti-semites and they are twisting the term and diluting its proper meaning in order to deaden all viable and rightful scrutiny of their actions.

http://www.answering-christianity.com/anti_semites.htm


Excerpt:

Firstly, one needs to consider what the term ‘Semite’ refers to before one can understand its antithesis. The Pan Macmillan Encyclopaedia provides the following definition:

Semites – a group of peoples, including the Jews and the Arabs, said in the Bible to be descended from Shem, Noah’s eldest son. The Semetic languages consist of a group of languages spoken in North Africa to the Southwest corner of Asia. Examples are Aramaic, Hebrew, Arabic, Ethiopic and Maltese.

Therefore, a Semite does not only refer to Jews, but to all peoples who speak Semetic languages and this certainly includes Arabs. Israeli society is in fact dominated by people ethnically known as ‘Ashkenazi’ Jews, referring to the Jews that have a Germanic and Slavic background who have migrated in large numbers from Europe and the USA since the state of Israel became firmly established. Today, around 85% of all Jews are Ashkenazim. According to Abraham Pollock, Professor of Medieval Jewish History at Tel Aviv University: "The large majority of world Jewry is descended from the Jews of Khazaria" [From: The Thirteenth Tribe by Arthur Koestler, Random House, 1976 p226]. Most of these Ashkenazi Jews actually have no ethnic or historical connection with ancient Israel and are actually descendants of a Turkic people who created a kingdom called Khazaria, and the sovereign of this kingdom embraced Judaism in the seventh century. This is supported by the American People’s Encyclopaedia 1964 [15-292] which records that: "In 740 the Khazars officially converted to Judaism…it is from this grouping that most German and Polish Jews are descended and they likewise make up a considerable part of that population found in the USA. The term Ashkenazim is now applied to this…division". Dr Alfred Lillenthal, who has spent his life in educating Americans about the Middle East, writes that: "That the Khazars are the lineal ancestors of Eastern European Jewry is a historical fact".

Jewish historians and religious textbooks acknowledge this fact, though propagandists of Jewish nationalism belittle it as ‘pro-Arab propaganda’ [From: What Price Israel, Henry Regency, 1953]. He also adds in the same book: "These Askhenazim Jews…have little or no trace of Semitic blood" [p222]. Thus based on this evidence, one may reasonably conclude that the majority of Jews in the world today are actually not Semites, neither by descent nor by ethnicity, as most of the Jews in Israel, Europe and the Americas are culturally more European anyway seeing as their ancestors became almost fully immersed in European culture because they lived in Europe for centuries.


The gravest error in all this is the knee reactionary argument which is derived from flagrant nationalistic sentiment more than a rational search for peace and social justice and the accountability of the political elite of Israel. It is this position which inspires and fuels the media and nearly all international fora in refusing to address the atrocities committed by Israel and condemning any who dare raise their voice in protest (even when the protestors themselves are Jewish by faith).

The suggestion is that we who uphold the right of Palestinians to be free from nearly 40 years of occupation, daily rocket and sniper attacks, demolition of homes and the virtual imprisonment into squalid ghettos guarded by IDF conscripts must hate all Jews and must by extension seek the eradication of the state of Israel is absurd and a clear avoidance of the issues.

This is nothing more than emotive and reactionary non-argument intended to divert legitimate culpability from those who wish to perpetuate the "victim" mentality as a means of excusing the very sort of human rights abuses for which we have invaded and toppled other leaders (usually Muslim).

The hypocrisy is breathtaking!

Manufacturing anti-semites (http://www.tikkun.org/magazine/index.cfm/action/tikkun/issue/tik0211/article/021111f.html)

Branding critics of Israeli racism anti-semites (http://www.mediamonitors.net/gowans24.html)

[Dear Wendy]

Originally posted by Clandestine
Don't recall ever suggesting you were an alcoholic.



You didn't use the word alcoholic but your words could not be mistaken.
Read this, and continue 2 posts down in the same thread (http://vbulletin.thesite.org.uk/showthread.php?s=&postid=769533&highlight=bottle#post769533). There you go.

[Clandestine]

Didnt bother reading your own post just above then (hardly surprising) it seems. My comment was merely a response based on your own acknowledgement of that night's activity.

No suggestion of any longterm addiction made by me in that thread. Seems you delight in twisting other's words to serve your own apparent paranoia.

Harping on such non-issue related drivel however merely underscores how ill equipped you are to intelligently debate the substance of the discussion at hand. Par for the course I suppose.

[Captain Slog]

Originally posted by Blagsta
It does affect you. The injustice in Palestine is one of the roots of extremist Islam anti-West feeling.
And why do they equate Israel with the west? Because America gave them lots of weapons. Thanks Mr Bush, you really helped calm the situation down, there.:rolleyes: As I said, we shouldn't be taking sides. The best thing the west could do is slap an arms embargo on 'em and leave them to it.

have a guess at a couple reasons why the middle east is of more concern ... Er, Oil? And who consumes more of that than anywhere else inthe world? The USA, of course. The more I think about it, the more I'm inclined to telling them where to stick their "special relationship".

[Captain Slog]

Originally posted by morrocan roll
captain? you wouldn't make captain of the netball team! No, I can't catch for a start. Oh sorry, were you trying to insult me?

[morrocan roll]

Originally posted by Captain Slog
No, I can't catch for a start. Oh sorry, were you trying to insult me? i was indeed ...sorry about that captain i was a little intoxicated and what seemed so funny last night does appear rather pathetic this morning ...oh the joys of a drop of irish.

[Captain Slog]

Apology accepted.:)

[Aladdin]

Originally posted by Captain Slog
And why do they equate Israel with the west? Because America gave them lots of weapons. Thanks Mr Bush, you really helped calm the situation down, there.:rolleyes: As I said, we shouldn't be taking sides. The best thing the west could do is slap an arms embargo on 'em and leave them to it.
Add that to what the US should have done a long time ago, stop giving unconditional support to whatever atrocities Israel felt like commiting (and that means no more of this!!! (http://www.shwa.org/topic/palestine/US_veto_israel.htm) ) and also an immediate stop to all economic and military aid until Israel fulfills its obligations, and you would see lasting peace flourish faster than you can say "Ariel Sharon is a fat bastard".

[The Matadore]

a lot of these suicide bombers are inteligent family people ...doesn't that tell you something?

That they are neither 'desperate' or'poor'. The majority of suicide bombers are middle-class, educated and motivated by a mixture of nationalism, religious fanatisism and hatred of the Jews.

For example, take Hanadi Jaradat, a law student, age 21 who kileld 21 Israelis and wounded many more in an explosion at the Maxim restaurant a few weeks ago. This restaurant was half-owned by an Arab family and several Arabs were killed in the explosion. Those who send the bombers are against ALL forms of Jewish-Arab negociation, even peace negociations.

The Israelis hit back, it is what any country under attack from these fanatics would do.

Israel must destroy the suicide networks, and we must give them full assistance to do so.

[morrocan roll]

Originally posted by The Matadore



Israel must destroy the suicide networks, and we must give them full assistance to do so. ...and the way to destroy that terrorism is to let the palestinians have their own state ...with borders ...without occupation. but no ...you seem to want israel to be able to occupy illegaly someone elses land ...and be able to kill the fuckers who are complaining about being occupied. does this make sense to you?
the jews were denied their own state for generations ...when they get one they refuse to let others acheive the same ...does this make sense to you?
the israelis have broken and ignored more united nations resolutions than any nation on earth ...with impunity ...does this make sense to you?

[hybrid]

Originally posted by morrocan roll
...and the way to destroy that terrorism is to let the palestinians have their own state ...with borders ...without occupation. but no ...you seem to want israel to be able to occupy illegaly someone elses land ...and be able to kill the fuckers who are complaining about being occupied. does this make sense to you?
the jews were denied their own state for generations ...when they get one they refuse to let others acheive the same ...does this make sense to you?
the israelis have broken and ignored more united nations resolutions than any nation on earth ...with impunity ...does this make sense to you?

:yes: agreed

[The Doc]

Originally posted by morrocan roll
the israelis have broken and ignored more united nations resolutions than any nation on earth

What about Iraq, the US and Zimbabwe?

[Clandestine]

There are more UN resolutions against the near 40 year Israeli occupation and other acts against Palestinians than were passed concerning Iraq. Unfortunately every resolution concerning Israel has been duly vetoed by Washington thanks to the illicit power of AIPAC.

[Aladdin]

Originally posted by The Matadore
That they are neither 'desperate' or'poor'.
You know, I was going to post a few links showing the levels of malnutrition, poverty and illiteracy amongst the Palestinians (level with the worst of Africa at the moment) but what's the fucking point. Someone who makes such a fucking idiotic statement is not going to admit to the reality of the situation so YOU can do the searches on Google not me... I can't be arsed with people with you anymore... a self-confessed racist who thinks Arabs are 'inferior' to whites and Jews such as yourself is seldom going to admit to anything.

The majority of suicide bombers are middle-class, educated and motivated by a mixture of nationalism, religious fanaticism and hatred of the Jews. The majority of Israeli soldiers/Jewish settlers are middle-class, educated and motivated by a mixture of nationalism, religious fanaticism and hatred of the Arabs. And your point is?


The Israelis hit back, it is what any country under attack from these fanatics would do. And the Palestinians hit back at the Israelis, it is what any country under attack from these fanatics would do.

Israel must destroy the suicide networks, and we must give them full assistance to do so. No. THE WORLD must destroy the Israeli death squads (AKA the Israeli Defence Forces), and we must give them full assistance to do so.

[Dear Wendy]

Originally posted by Aladdin
No. THE WORLD must destroy the Israeli death squads (AKA the Israeli Defence Forces), and we must give them full assistance to do so.

Fucking lovely...

Well at least now I am sure of the fact that discussing with you is a waste of time and energy and simply useless.

[Clandestine]

You never discuss anything here of any substance anyways Jacq. This comment is just further demonstration of your inability to intelligently discuss the issue.

How you ever think youll have any credibility as a diplomat is anyone's guess. You'll be a laughing stock if you think you can pipe in with such dismissive refusal to discuss pertinent matters as "discussing with you is a waste of time...". :rolleyes:

[Uncle Joe]

Originally posted by Jacqueline the Ripper
Well at least now I am sure of the fact that discussing with you is a waste of time and energy and simply useless. Well, thank heavens we've finally got that one sorted out...

[Dear Wendy]

Originally posted by Clandestine
You never discuss anything here of any substance anyways Jacq. This comment is just further demonstration of your inability to intelligently discuss the issue.

How you ever think youll have any credibility as a diplomat is anyone's guess. You'll be a laughing stock if you think you can pipe in with such dismissive refusal to discuss pertinent matters as "discussing with you is a waste of time...". :rolleyes:

Yes, cause currently I am a diplomat and Aladdin is the terrorists foreign minister...

I am sure that 20 years from now I'll tell myself "I should have listened to Clandestine" :)

[Uncle Joe]

Originally posted by Jacqueline the Ripper
I am sure that 20 years from now I'll tell myself "I should have listened to Clandestine" :) No, listen to Zvi Mazel! Indignance is a valuable commodity!

[ShyBoy]

If the Israeli's pull out of Palestine completely, do you think the suicide bombers would stop forever? Most of them would probably leave it.. but some I'm sure would want 'revenge' and then Israel has to send it troops to stop them, and it starts all over again.

I don't condone either side. Just think they should call it quits and leave each other alone! Or get UN troops along the border, or something :confused:

[Aladdin]

Just like you Jacqs I find that arguing with you can be a waste of time when it comes to the Middle East. There are few (if any) actions perpetrated by the IDF or the Israeli government you seem prepared to condemn. Considering you have even defended Israeli soldiers shooting dead children because one or several of them do the temerity of throwing a rock at them (never mind Saddam and his WMDs- an eight year old throwing a stone is clearly the biggest threat to the survival of mankind :rolleyes: ) there isn't seem to be much point debating much when you are happily defending cold blooded, completely unjustified murders.

If you had stopped to read Mat's post you might have realised that used his own comments for my replies and changed 'Palestinians' with 'Israelis'. That should be enough for you to realise the nature of my post or whether I really believe Israeli soldiers should be exterminated (I don't). But funny how you appear to find my comments outrageous but have no thoughts on Matadore's.

Regardless of whichever side you support in this conflict, what makes you believe that murders committed by men in army uniform are any more admissible that those committed by terrorists/militiamen? They are exactly as despicable as each other, and any IDF soldier who engages in such practices deserves the same fate as suicide bombers.

By the way I'm not the only one who thinks the IDF is perpetrating war crimes and atrocities... As you will know there is a growing numbers of troops and officers who refuse to serve in the occupied areas, who have disobeyed orders to carry out revenge attacks against civilians or who simply refuse to join the army for as long as it engages in such activities. Those people are heroes and many of them have been thrown into jail for their stance. I've signed the odd petition or two to have them freed. Let me know if you would like to sign it as well and I'll post the links.

[Whowhere]

I don't understand why some of you support the palestinians. Israel is trying to defend itself and is doing it the only way it knows how.
I personally believe the whole mess would be sorted out if Palestine simply ceased to exist for all the trouble they are causing.
So far the Israelis are REACTING to events. They try and offer the olive branch by withdrawing their forces, everytime they do 20 civilians get blown to hell on their way to work.

[Clandestine]

Not bother to really research the matter much have you?

The expansionist agenda of zionism began with terrorism of its own, driving the legitimate inhabitants off the land by force long before there ever was a recognised state and it hasnt abated throughout almost 40 years of illegal military occupation of what remaining scattered areas Palestinians yet inhabit.

If anyone is "reacting" it is the Palestinians and without the support of the international community which has shown itself so ready to condemn similar hostile occupation and expansionistic aims by other countries.

I advise you brush up on the real roots of this conflict and then put yourself in the shoes of those who have not ceased to suffer since the Balfour Declaration sold them out.

Here are some links if you care to gain a comprehensive picture and put this issue into its longrunning historical context rather than the one sided and sanitised spin the media cares to offer from week to week...

The Origins of the Palestinian-Israeli Conflict (http://www.cactus48.com/truth.html)

Research Guide to the Palestinian-Israeli Conflict (http://robincmiller.com/melinkfr.htm)

[Aladdin]

Originally posted by Whowhere
I don't understand why some of you support the palestinians. Israel is trying to defend itself and is doing it the only way it knows how. And EXACTLY the very same words can be said of the Palestinians.

I personally believe the whole mess would be sorted out if Palestine simply ceased to exist for all the trouble they are causing. And EXACTLY the very same words can be said of Israel.

I don't believe Israel should cease to exist. But if one had to choose between the two nations the logical choice would be for Israel to make way. At the end of the day the Palestinians were there first.


So far the Israelis are REACTING to events. So are the Palestinians. They are reacting to having their country stolen, being given a pitiful amount of land in which to "live", and then have about 25% of that remaining land taken away by an illegal occupier who proceeds to make their "life" absolute misery, to mistreat, kill and torture them and to impose movement, water and electricity restrictions within their own land.

Like I said earlier, the only surprising thing in this conflict is that no more Palestinians are willing to become suicide bombers.


They try and offer the olive branch by withdrawing their forces, everytime they do 20 civilians get blown to hell on their way to work. Wrong. They've never withdrawn in full (as per UN resolutions and international law), they've never removed their illegal settlements (as per UN resolutions and international law) and they've never offered to return all the land stolen in 1967 and go back to the pre-67 borders (as per UN resolutions and international law).

Do you actually expect the Palestinians to be grateful because from time to time the Israelis lift the blockades and drive their tanks away from the left overs of the land the Palestinians have left??? Do you expect them to settle for the broken left overs they've been offered, full of cancerous Jewish settlements in every corner, and with an Apartheid Wall that takes further land from them, cuts towns in two and make conditions in Palestine look like a Nazi concentration camp?

What ungrateful lot the Palestinians are! Really!

:rolleyes:

[morrocan roll]

Originally posted by Whowhere
I don't understand why some of you support the palestinians. Israel is trying to defend itself and is doing it the only way it knows how.
I personally believe the whole mess would be sorted out if Palestine simply ceased to exist for all the trouble they are causing.
So far the Israelis are REACTING to events. They try and offer the olive branch by withdrawing their forces, everytime they do 20 civilians get blown to hell on their way to work. whowhere ...it fucking frightens the shit out of me that your about to become a part time copper ...with the power to impose penalties on people ...god help us.

[Turtle]

Originally posted by morrocan roll
whowhere ...it fucking frightens the shit out of me that your about to become a part time copper ...with the power to impose penalties on people ...god help us.

:lol: And I live near his jurisdiction. Save me. ;)

Whowhere, you're taking a very short-term view of the conflict there. As Aladdin correctly pointed out, Israel as failed retreat sufficiently. It is Palestine who were there first. It is Israel who felt the need to defend themselves against the Arabs by expanding their borders into sovereign territories, and Israel's current right-wing government isn't helping the peace process one bit.

That said, every time a peace settlement has come close, it seems to be Palenstinian bombers who wreck it - though correct me on that if I'm wrong. Palestine need a stronger leadership than they have at the moment, and Israel need a more moderate government. Maybe then we can see a bit of silence and re-drawing of borders.

[Aladdin]

Agree 100%

[Clandestine]

The settlements have all to date not come close as the media would have us believe.

Each time the Palestinians agreed to increase concessions or link otherwise obligatory matters (for Israel to comply with according to international law) to the process, successive Israeli leaders have scuppered the breakthroughs by grasping for even more concessions behind the scenes and away from the television cameras. Then of course they have capitalised on the resulting resumption of violence by claiming the Palestinians ruined the agreements. It's little more than clever PR work which all too many swallow readily without digging into what's really going on and what vested interests are at work in this process for the US & Israeli cadre.

There has not been a single case of genuine will to reach agreement by any Israeli government, too much by way of future gains would have to be relinquished by Israel for the hardliners to allow an end to the ongoing status quo, Barak showed that all too clearly as had his predecessors and those who followed him (Netanyahu being amongst the worst of the lot so far).

But this point has been covered over and over with relevant supporting information provided in many threads in the past two years. I suggest you search through the archives for the plethora of threads devoted to this debate.

[Kermit]

here are some figures for those who think Israel are justified and proportionate in what they do:

From The Israeli Information Center for Human Rights in the Occupied Territories:
Israeli and Palestinian Minors, Age 16 and Under (Age 13 and Under) Killed since the Beginning of the First Intifada (9 Dec., 1987) through 20 July, 2003:
Israeli minors killed by Palestinian civilians in the Occupied Territories: 27 (14)
Israeli minors killed by Palestinian civilians in Israel: 70 (18)
Palestinian minors killed by Israeli civilians in the Occupied Territories: 25 (13)
Palestinians minors killed by Israeli security forces in the Occupied Territories: 663 (204)

And since the current intifada started:

Israeli minors killed by Palestinian civilians in the Occupied Territories: 22
Israeli minors killed by Palestinian civilians in Israel: 56
Palestinian minors killed by Israeli civilians in the Occupied Territories: 2
Palestinians minors killed by Israeli security forces in the Occupied Territories: 382

Any justification?

[Kermit]

Originally posted by morrocan roll
whowhere ...it fucking frightens the shit out of me that your about to become a part time copper ...with the power to impose penalties on people ...god help us.

Its attitudes like Whowheres that have sent levels of trust in the police through the floor.

[Turtle]

Originally posted by Kermit
here are some figures for those who think Israel are justified and proportionate in what they do:

And since the current intifada started:

Any justification?

On a human level, absolutely. They're just soldiers, and much as we'd like to believe different, soldiers are human beings, capable of fear and of reacting to it.

Israel's a citizen's army, not a professional one. These people aren't trained to nearly as high a standard as you'd see in the US - hell, it's not like the US Army is much better. It is entirely human to react to unpredictable situations so as to impose order on them. Minors are incredibly unpredictable, and given the constant fear generated by the situation - you never know who the hell's going to try to blow you up - it's not unreasonable to expect soliders to react to kids wandering around.

Of course, it is slightly unfortunate that they choose to react with bullets, but that's the side effect of giving them guns.

Of course, the soldier's fear is almost entirely a product of a failed political process for which there is no justification, on either side. Seems to be Israel's getting more than its fair share of the blame - Clandestine, are the Palestinians entirely in the right then? Is everything they do completely acceptable?

[Clandestine]

There is a substantive difference between acknowledging that Palestinian acts of self defence and indeed retaliation are "justifiable" or "understandable" given what they have been systematically reduced to economically, materially, and politically and stating that the manner in which their militant response takes form is "acceptable" or "right".

One concerns recognising the severe injustices which have plagued this people since cadres of zionist terrorists first began fomenting upheaval and instability in the former British colony in advance of the eventual political concessions which granted them the state at the expense of the people who had inhabited the land for hundreds of years in peaceful coexistence with the small jewish population still present in the land. Recognition that for its part at least provides a far more substantive and contextualised answer to the question of "why?" regarding the willingness of some Palestinians to sacrifice their lives to strike out against unrelenting aggression and repression by a superior power.

The latter however is a matter of qualification, the "should" or "ought" of the matter. I do not advocate that Palestinians "ought" to strap bombs to themselves as much as I do not advocate that Israeli Defence Forces should have any authority whatsoever to demolish what little yet remains of habitable dwellings, build concentration camp containment ghettos, perpetrate daily (and largely unreported) sniper and apache helicopter rocket attacks in populated areas, etc. Yet both do.

But do I think it the inalienable right of people to defend themselves against occupation, unjust imprisonment and a host of human rights abuses? Yes I do. Unfortunately the conditions necessary for and end to all this lie with those who hold the power in the region and who have instead chosen to adopt a neverending "victim" mentality, avoiding all accountability by deadening any significant debate with spurious cries of anti-semitism toward any who dare point out the long list of criminal acts for which their leaders have yet to account.

Perhaps when peace is viewed as more important than regional domination, and irresponsible expansionistic settlement policies, those with the power to do so will fulfil their obligations to international law and end the situation which fuels the ongoing grievance of the Palestinians. Only then will two viable states be possible and the foundations for lasting peace be established.

[Whowhere]

My ignorance is highlighted i suppose, I knew nothing about Israel and the Zionists before the 1940's.
I still believe that the Palestinians aren't going to win anything if they carry on as they are, which i'm sure you agree on.
All they will win is a retaliatory strike similar to America's response to Afghanistan and Iraq.


Rolly, I don't think I'm gonna meet many Israelis or Palestininians on my beat....do you?

[Blagsta]

Dunno, where do you live? I know a few Palestinians in London.

[Aladdin]

And just another day at the office in occupied Palestine. At least we got to hear about this one, if only as a footnote... :rolleyes:

Eight Palestinians killed in latest Israeli incursion (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/3436561.stm)



Even the more reason for this:




http://italy.indymedia.org//uploads/saralee3.jpg55txhg.jpg

[Aladdin]

And for those who are observing or want to observe a boycott:

http://italy.indymedia.org//uploads/barcode_boycott.gifkcqhqw.gif

[The Matadore]

'Brave'? Foolish kid more like.

And those militants opened fire first, idiots.

[morrocan roll]

Originally posted by Whowhere


Rolly, I don't think I'm gonna meet many Israelis or Palestininians on my beat....do you? i take it your not in a big city then?

[Aladdin]

Originally posted by The Matadore
'Brave'? Foolish kid more like.

And those militants opened fire first, idiots. What are your thoughts on the kid though? Do you have a single word or condemnation for Israeli soldiers who shoot children dead for throwing rocks? Or do you reckon there is nothing wrong with it?

[Blagsta]

Originally posted by The Matadore
'Brave'? Foolish kid more like.

And those militants opened fire first, idiots.

Evidence?

Oh no, I forgot. You just leave a thread when asked to back up your claims. :rolleyes:

[The Matadore]

Evidence? Perhaps you go and read Aladdins post.



What are your thoughts on the kid though?

He was an idiot, use your commen sense, you do not go throwing stones at tanks manned by jumpy young soldiers who are trying to protect themselves.


Do you have a single word or condemnation for Israeli soldiers who shoot children dead for throwing rocks?

Condemnation? Sure, they should have shot him in the leg.

[Clandestine]

who are trying to protect themselves

Insofar as soldiers in tanks are not the least bit under threat from rocks (unless you think the Taiwanese build Israeli tanks), they would be under no threat whatsoever if they and their tanks were not deployed illegally in terroritory not owned by Israel.

If the safety of Israeli soldiers is of such concern to you, then start advocating their full and unconditional withdrawal and an end to nearly 40 years of brutal and murderous occupation.

[Kermit]

Originally posted by Clandestine
[Bunless you think the Taiwanese build Israeli tanks[/B]

I wouldn't mock Taiwan so much- they're better builders than British Aerospace:p

[Clandestine]

Perhaps but I was alluding to the classic image of cheaply made Taiwanese goods as a humorous comparative.

[Blagsta]

Originally posted by The Matadore
Evidence? Perhaps you go and read Aladdins post.

OK. But I'd call that self defence.

You gonna answer my points on other threads?

[Aladdin]

You disgust me Matadore.

The way you are trying to justify or tone down cold blooded murder and war crimes is fucking revolting.

I wonder what your reaction would be if the police here shot dead BNP demonstrators who were throwing missiles at them (even though the police would not even have the benefit of a tank to protect them).

"Jumpy young soldiers who are trying to protect themselves." Do you know how fucking pathetic does that sound?

Change that to child-killing, cold blooded murdering ****s worse than paedophiles and you're nearer the mark. "Trying to protect themselves..." Fucking pathetic.

And this is the oasis of democracy and freedom you go on about? A place where children are regularly murdered for no reason and where the murders go unpunished by the government? Even the fucking Taliban left children alone.

If you had but the tiniest trace of humanity in you, you would at least admit that shooting children dead is a hideous crime and that its perpetrators are nothing but disgusting child murderers, instead of trying to justify and unjustifiable.

But I guess when children are dirty Arabs, inferior to the White and Jewish Man, it's not such a big deal is it?

[The Matadore]

But I guess when children are dirty Arabs, inferior to the White and Jewish Man

Bull****


shot dead

UK police do not have guns.


Do you know how fucking pathetic does that sound

Theres nothing pathetic about it, the Palestinians blow up themselves in crowded cafes and restaurants with children. Its called tit for tat.


its perpetrators are nothing but disgusting child murderers

Not at all, they are young, inexperienced troops trying to survive in an area full of people who hate them, and would drive them all (including their children) into the sea.

Fucking pathetic.

Whats 'fucking pathetic' is you and your ilk. You sit there on your computer at home, in a nice safe country, becoming 'outraged' by people who are simply defending their homes and famalies from, frankly, barbarous people who blow themselves up. You wanna stop the Israeli army? Go there yourself and fight them with flowers and confetti and petitions and whatever else you use to solve problems.

The Palestinian crisis will only be solved when one side emerges victorious, the Israeli nation-state, or the Palestinian suicide networks.

[morrocan roll]

Originally posted by The Matadore
Bull****




UK police do not have guns.




Theres nothing pathetic about it, the Palestinians blow up themselves in crowded cafes and restaurants with children. Its called tit for tat.




Not at all, they are young, inexperienced troops trying to survive in an area full of people who hate them, and would drive them all (including their children) into the sea.



Whats 'fucking pathetic' is you and your ilk. You sit there on your computer at home, in a nice safe country, becoming 'outraged' by people who are simply defending their homes and famalies from, frankly, barbarous people who blow themselves up. You wanna stop the Israeli army? Go there yourself and fight them with flowers and confetti and petitions and whatever else you use to solve problems.

The Palestinian crisis will only be solved when one side emerges victorious, the Israeli nation-state, or the Palestinian suicide networks. your understanding isn't one sided it's nil.
the palestinian people didn't have anyone to blow up and were getting on with their very peaceful and relatively calm and sucsessful lives until the zionists turned up ...turned them over ...robbed them of their land for ...a 5,000yr old idea.
do you grasp ...if the french turn up tomorrow and by force start taking manchester off you ...england off you by force and violence ...your going to continue to sit and watch the telly.
what if the jews turn up and by force start to take england off you ...

[Aladdin]

Originally posted by The Matadore
Bull**** Are you denying that you stated here a while ago that Arabs are inferior to whites or Jews?

Do you really want me to dig it up?




UK police do not have guns. Oh yes they do.

But I see that you have avoided the question, so here it is again. What would you say if BNP protesters were shot dead by police for throwing missiles at them?



Theres nothing pathetic about it, the Palestinians blow up themselves in crowded cafes and restaurants with children. Its called tit for tat. Correction. A few Palestinians who belong to terrorist/militant organisations blow themselves up. The rest of the Palestinians (i.e. 99.999%) don't.

And in any case, 'vibrant democracies' that care about freedom and human rights don't take revenge on children. Only brutal, barbaric regimes indulge in such practices. Tell me again how nice the Israeli state is...




Not at all, they are young, inexperienced troops trying to survive in an area full of people who hate them, and would drive them all (including their children) into the sea. Piss off.

Like I said, trying to defend the indefensable.

So being young and inexperienced (aren't we all at 19) is defence against murder charges? Must try that if I ever wind up in court... :rolleyes:





Whats 'fucking pathetic' is you and your ilk. You sit there on your computer at home, in a nice safe country, becoming 'outraged' by people who are simply defending their homes and famalies from, frankly, barbarous people who blow themselves up. You wanna stop the Israeli army? Go there yourself and fight them with flowers and confetti and petitions and whatever else you use to solve problems.

The Palestinian crisis will only be solved when one side emerges victorious, the Israeli nation-state, or the Palestinian suicide networks. [/B]

Israeli soldiers in Palestine aren't defending their homes and families- they don't live there. It's not even their fucking country.

Are you suggesting ALL Palestinians are barbaric? You are getting more clueless and racist by the minute.

Like I said, your attempt to justify child murders is disgusting. Full stop.

[Blagsta]

Originally posted by The Matadore
Bull****




UK police do not have guns.




Theres nothing pathetic about it, the Palestinians blow up themselves in crowded cafes and restaurants with children. Its called tit for tat.




Not at all, they are young, inexperienced troops trying to survive in an area full of people who hate them, and would drive them all (including their children) into the sea.



Whats 'fucking pathetic' is you and your ilk. You sit there on your computer at home, in a nice safe country, becoming 'outraged' by people who are simply defending their homes and famalies from, frankly, barbarous people who blow themselves up. You wanna stop the Israeli army? Go there yourself and fight them with flowers and confetti and petitions and whatever else you use to solve problems.

The Palestinian crisis will only be solved when one side emerges victorious, the Israeli nation-state, or the Palestinian suicide networks.

Read some history and then come back.

[morrocan roll]

how can you live in manchester and believe the police aren't armed? they have been quite heavily armed for over twenty years! ...in the position that aladin is talking about there will be police weapons in a fucking abundance.

[Kermit]

Originally posted by Clandestine
Perhaps but I was alluding to the classic image of cheaply made Taiwanese goods as a humorous comparative.

I know;)

[Man Of Kent]

Originally posted by Aladdin
Israeli soldiers in Palestine

Not going to argue with your over-riding points, but there is not, nor has the ever been a state of Palestine.

[Clandestine]

And what kind of argument is that? Palestine IS the historic name of the region and the Palestinians are very real and very much oppressed by Israel's continuing illegal actions.

[Clandestine]

At most Aladdin failed to be precise in saying Palestinian territories, but that is merely a matter of semantics.

[Man Of Kent]

No it isn't.

He suggested that the entire area was "Owned" by Paelstinians. It never has been.

Previously much of that land "Belonged" to other nations, each of which has oppressed the Palestinians - many of whom still do inside their own borders.

[Aladdin]

A land belongs to its historical occupants, especially if they are still there and are the majority.

The Palestinians, as a people or race, were there well before the state of Israel was created out of thin air and dumped on them.

Just who gets to decide what makes a nation anyway?

[Kermit]

Originally posted by Aladdin
The Palestinians, as a people or race, were there well before the state of Israel was created out of thin air and dumped on them.

But that argument is a bit spurious, Aladdin- Israel has been around for a long time, the twelve tribes and all that.

[Aladdin]

They left though.

[Clandestine]

The modern state of Israel is a secular construct whose history and claim to the land only goes back to the Balfour Declaration. These are not the middle Eastern hebrews of biblical times (i.e. the Semitic people who were promised the land) but European's whose bloodlines are more Turkish in origins than semitic.

http://www.answering-christianity.com/anti_semites.htm

Besides which, the zionist movement of Herzl was itself roundly condemned by religious jews of his day as being a political attempt to hasten the restoration of Israel at the coming of the Messiah. That the religious have long since fallen into line with zionism as a political movement in no way lends credence to the mainstream arguments of the present state being the promised restoration by right. If anything the grossest acts of anti-semitism are committed daily against those whose ancestry never left the land (i.e. Palestinians) but which were driven off by terroristic violence as European militants came to take what they sought by force.

So the twelve tribes issue is irrelevant in this context.

[Braineater]

You've got fundamentalists on both sides. Leave them slaughter each other. When they finish throwing toys out of their prams and recruiting innocents to commit genocide (on both sides) to negotiate a cease fire or a permenant settlement then we can get involved and end this sham of a "war".

Until then I unashamebly say:

Sod the lot of them. Israeli or Palestinian. They will look back on this period with shame. If the EU, UN or USA has to physically force a ceasefire then so be it. It's worthless and futile, a pathetic example to humanity and an embarassment to whatever god they worship.

Arabs and Jews are both Semites so don't accuse me of Anti-semitism or of being a racist. I strongly believe that this conflict can be solved around a negotiating table and the only people standing in the way of it are Ariel Sharon and Yasser Arafat.

[Aladdin]

I don't think they should be left to slaughter each other for a number of reasons- including the fact that it is one side which is doing most of the slaughtering and oppresing, and which has the power to eradicate the other side if so wishes.

[Braineater]

But the fact is both sides will carry on doing so until the other side no longer exists and it is ridiculous. One side has full state backing while the other has secret multinational backing.

A suicide bomber is just as much the murderer as the conscripted Israeili solider. They are both doing their duty to Allah and Sharon and we are not going to stop it, only they can. When they realise if they continue they will no longer have countries to govern then they will sit up and take notice of the situation THEY have dragged themselves into.

We cannot force people into changing. Any British government that enforces a pro-settlement position will be equally accused of racism and anti-semitism. In the Jew financial backed US Presidential elections they are not going to stand up and say, "let us create an independant Palestine/1 state 2 systems"

The Israelis and Palestinians are the only ones who can sort it out and until then the West (EU, USA should withdraw) ALL support to both sides but with Elections looming in the US, it seems unlikely that either Democrats or Republicans will support an embargo. The USA is the big player as only Israel will listen to them in this and we can only wait and see to what they do.

Until them, the slaughter of innocents on both sides will continue and we can do nothing about it because of the pig headed attitude of both the Israeli and Palesinian governments.

It's yet another problem created by nationalism and religious zealots and yet again the big loser is the commener. No one seems to learn from history.
:(

[Murph Redux]

In 1948 the Jewish State came into existance. That state was immediately attacked on all sides. It won that war and defended itself aver the succeeding decades.

There are arabs in the Knesset. Israel is a democracy.

I find it keenly interesting that Jews are being assaulted again all over Europe. Some things never change. The same vile accusations are being made against Jews as they have been for centuries.

The vile anti-semitism being displayed on this board would do any Nazi proud! Unless and until the right of Israel to exist is firmly established there can be no peace.

I also want to make perfectly clear that the term "never again" has a very deep meaning for me and many others. Israel will continue to exist and it will defend itself regardless. The chic new anti-semitism of Europes left is vile and disgusting!

We are not going to meekly march into gas chambers this time! You want us you come get us. You don't like us then come and get us! We are waiting for you to join your Palestinian friends who like to blow up children.

We will defend ourselves by all means possible and by any means necessary! We are as serious as death when we say"NEVER AGAIN"!!!

[Blagsta]

Why so some people conflate criticism of Israel with anti-semitism?

[LadyJade]

Whoa! Where did that come from Murph Redux?

This issue is complicated and emotional but reactions that are so strongly worded are a bit out of order.

[morrocan roll]

is it possible to boycott israeli goods on a larg scale?
this is not anti semitism. the jews of all people in this world should know better than anyone what it's like to not have a homeland ...to not have self governance ...that what is so shocking. building walls instead of bridges does not make much sense ...especialy when those walls take peoples land and livelihood.

[Clandestine]

Why so some people conflate criticism of Israel with anti-semitism?

Because they have so little comprehension of the term "anti -semite" that they fail to understand that the actual anti-semites are the European zionists who first forced the creation of the state of israel by perpetrating the very sorts of terrorist acts (see the background of Menachim Begin and other Israeli statesmen , Sharon as well) which they comdemn palestinians or any other arabs for perpetrating.

Those making such arguments also are the very types who have willfully relinquished their civic duty to hold our own leaders accountable, preferring instead to turn a blind eye to abuse of power and lies so long as its their right wing heros in power.

They are knee-jerk reactionaries whose arguments are as shallow as their committment to the rule of law they so readily pontificate upon but chose not to apply to ourselves as well.

Murph is simply regurgitating the spin of AIPAC and the revisionist history it portrays of the long running conflict. Far easier to label anyone who criticises as "anti-semite", anti-American", etc. than demonstrate intelligent rational capacity to address our own wrongdoing (and that of those Washington so unquestioningly support).

They only come out to rant and attack when its a democrat in office and some laughable sex scandal is involved. Janet Jackson's tit falling out causes them to froth and moralise whilst our leaders continue to evade their responsibility for their much more serious actions both at home and abroad.

The priorities of the right are warped and hypocritical, but then they always have been.

[Man Of Kent]

Originally posted by LadyJade
Whoa! Where did that come from Murph Redux?

This issue is complicated and emotional but reactions that are so strongly worded are a bit out of order.

I disagree.

What Murph has highlighted there is a personal perspective on what is being discussed here and the clear criticism of Israel. You cannot escape from the fact that Israel is the only Jewish state on the planet. You also cannot escape from the treatment of jews throughout history. Clearly this is going to make jews more defensive when they see criticism of their nation.

Many of the complaints about jews (and Israel) are similar in fashion to what the facists used - and we all know how that ended.

Murph has brought up the fact - and it is fact - that anti-semitic attacks in Europe are on the increase. You cannot divorce the criticism of the only jewish state and these attacks as the first gives a certain level of "justification" (not sure that is the word I am looking for, perhaps "legitimacy" would be better) to these attacks.

When Israel is criticised, it is for defending their nation in the best way which they can. By arguing against such defence we must be careful not to suggest that Israel should not have this option open to them - his 1948 comment is a very important part of that.

What we see here is a constant critcism of Israel and yet little criticism of the Terrorists - something which I have pointed out before... so we have criticism of the terrorism which Israel perpetrates, but not that of the Palestinians... I understand why he can see anti-semitism here...

[Man Of Kent]

Originally posted by Clandestine
They only come out to rant and attack when its a democrat in office and some laughable sex scandal is involved.

The laughable sex act included perjury, a serious crime, let's not forget that... ;)

The priorities of the right are warped and hypocritical, but then they always have been.

And the left isn't?

[LadyJade]

I'm not necessarily disagreeing with the sentiment MoK, but I think accusing board users of being Nazi sympathisers and vile racists is going a bit far.

[Uncle Joe]

Originally posted by Murph Redux
In 1948 the Jewish State came into existance. That state was immediately attacked on all sides. It won that war and defended itself aver the succeeding decades. Yep, in 1948, the Lord said "Let there be Israel", and recorded history began. Ben Gurion, Begin, the bombing of the King David hotel, these are antedeluvian myths...

[Clandestine]

Many of the complaints about jews (and Israel) are similar in fashion to what the facists used - and we all know how that ended.

As are the actions of the Israeli government, but to raise such obvious parallels is to spark the rabid reactionaries into foaming at the mouth and hurling irrational vitriole in defense of the indefensible.

As for your blanket dismissal of palestinian response to ceaseless Israeli occupation, wholesale murder of women and children, demolitions of houses, concentration camp-styled imprisonment and denial of movement and economic opportunity, I'd be so interested in seeing how peacefully non-resistant you'd be if your home, neighbourhood, city, etc.. were permanently occupied and you were forced out at gunpoint so that foreigners from Europe with no direct claim to the land could come and settle.

No, you wouldn't fight back, that'd make you a terrorist.

[Uncle Joe]

Originally posted by Man Of Kent
What we see here is a constant critcism of Israel and yet little criticism of the Terrorists - something which I have pointed out before... so we have criticism of the terrorism which Israel perpetrates, but not that of the Palestinians... I understand why he can see anti-semitism here... Actually, I think the issue has always been that while we can all agree that what Hamas are doing is illegal, and merits punishment, there is huge resistant to the suggestion that the Israelis can ever do wrong, which feeds anti-Israeli hatred and swells the ranks of Palestinian extremists. I think the Israeli politicians know that if they are reasonable, demographics will bring an end to the 'Jewish state' (think it was intended to be secular, originally) in a few years.

[BlackArab]

Originally posted by Murph Redux
In 1948 the Jewish State came into existance. That state was immediately attacked on all sides. It won that war and defended itself aver the succeeding decades.

There are arabs in the Knesset. Israel is a democracy.

I find it keenly interesting that Jews are being assaulted again all over Europe. Some things never change. The same vile accusations are being made against Jews as they have been for centuries.

The vile anti-semitism being displayed on this board would do any Nazi proud! Unless and until the right of Israel to exist is firmly established there can be no peace.

I also want to make perfectly clear that the term "never again" has a very deep meaning for me and many others. Israel will continue to exist and it will defend itself regardless. The chic new anti-semitism of Europes left is vile and disgusting!

We are not going to meekly march into gas chambers this time! You want us you come get us. You don't like us then come and get us! We are waiting for you to join your Palestinian friends who like to blow up children.

We will defend ourselves by all means possible and by any means necessary! We are as serious as death when we say"NEVER AGAIN"!!!

No Nazis here try bnp.com

regards and thanks for the well-balanced post