The Role of The State

[Renzo]

How about an old fashioned debate on what should be the role of the state?:p Just like the like the likes of Locke, Hobbes and Mill would have?

Come on ive just written 3 pages of notes on this you know you want too;)

My theory will come later of course!

[Toadborg]

If you have got the notes then shouldn't you submit your hypothesis and then others critiscise?

Go on.........................;)

[Renzo]

Originally posted by Toadborg
If you have got the notes then shouldn't you submit your hypothesis and then others critiscise?

Go on.........................;)

Oh why not:p

Basically i think that the state *should* provide welfare and the like for its citizens. (The Social Democratic View...i think) I also think though people should have some freedoms and things, not like in a communist state and stuff. Though i disagree with the New Right view of it. You know everyone for themselves blah blah blah.

Hm....im tied. That doesnt make sense. Oh well....upstairs is *so* far away. lol Hm i am yet to revise tonite:eek2:

[morrocan roll]

the role of the state is to tell me wether or not i can grow a beard or my wife can wear a scarf ...when living in france it would seem.

[Whowhere]

The state *should* be serving the people and not the other way round.

[The Matadore]

The state should be minimal, the less interference the better.

[Renzo]

Originally posted by The Matadore
The state should be minimal, the less interference the better.

Lies, all lies

[The Matadore]

Lies? Why?

You asked for my opinion, either counter it with a statement of some use, or dont say anything at all.

[Renzo]

Originally posted by The Matadore
Lies? Why?

You asked for my opinion, either counter it with a statement of some use, or dont say anything at all.

Because it only gives freedom to those who are better well off. Those you can afford education, health care and the like. The poor will just get poorer in a downward spiral as private business cut 10,000s of staff so they can line thier own greedy pockets.

Now that is why my honorable freind;)

[Dear Wendy]

Originally posted by Renzokuken
Because it only gives freedom to those who are better well off. Those you can afford education, health care and the like. The poor will just get poorer in a downward spiral as private business cut 10,000s of staff so they can line thier own greedy pockets.

Now that is why my honorable freind;)

Mind telling that to my grandparents who busted their asses off, and in return got their three kids into an university education, which lead them to respectively gain a doctor degree, an important national CEO position and my mom being the "modest" one of her and her brother got a position as a high-school teacher?
Keep in mind that my grandmother learnt to read and write at the age of 40 or more...

It's all about will and drive.

[Renzo]

Originally posted by Jacqueline the Ripper
Mind telling that to my grandparents who busted their asses off, and in return got their three kids into an university education, which lead them to respectively gain a doctor degree, an important national CEO position and my mom being the "modest" one of her and her brother got a position as a high-school teacher?
Keep in mind that my grandmother learnt to read and write at the age of 40 or more...

It's all about will and drive.

Maybe so, but the state should be the one providing for its citizens, not the other way around. Im sure most lower income people can never get that "will and drive" because there is a system that will always be against them.

[dantheman]

I would hate extreme socialism or anything like communism.
Private companies can lead to the poor getting poorer etc etc,
but the government can do more for the poor and working class without controlling everybody and everything, there is an inbetween. USSR had no freedom living under Stalin.
I would hate to live in a country where I wouldn't have the opportunity to make something of myself.

[Dear Wendy]

Originally posted by Renzokuken
Maybe so, but the state should be the one providing for its citizens, not the other way around. Im sure most lower income people can never get that "will and drive" because there is a system that will always be against them.

Not true. My dads parents did the same. Under totally different circumstances and in a different country.

For every time you say "it isn't normally so" I'll bring up a new example.

[Aladdin]

If you are suggesting that those who are poor or with a low-paid, dead end job only have themselves to blame you are very, very wrong.

[Dear Wendy]

Originally posted by Aladdin
If you are suggesting that those who are poor or with a low-paid, dead end job only have themselves to blame you are very, very wrong.

Where have I stated, suggested or insinuated that?

Truth is, I haven't.
I just highlighted some example which don't fit your perception.

[Renzo]

Originally posted by Jacqueline the Ripper
Not true. My dads parents did the same. Under totally different circumstances and in a different country.

For every time you say "it isn't normally so" I'll bring up a new example.

So you know afew examples.

You would expect say a single mother to do the same?

It *is* the state that should be helping people.

[Aladdin]

Renzokuken was arguing with Mat that the state being kept to a minimum is not a good idea since only the very well off can afford to live without it.

You said it wasn't true and cited the example of your grandparents who worked very hard and their children all ended up with university degrees and good jobs.

Renzokuken replied that it is not all about will and drive and that the state should still provide for the people because the system will always be against the poor.

You then replied that that wasn't true, that your parents did the same thing, and that you will be able to provide many other examples.

Well I must say that it sounds to me that you're suggesting if you try hard enough you can put your children through university and provide them with private health and good education. Which in effect means that those who can't afford to send their children to uni or provide them with private health or good education are obviously not trying hard enough.

And all I have to say is congratulations to your family because they have been very lucky. Unfortunately life doesn't work in terms of 'will and drive', 'accountable and responsible for your own actions' and other such slogans alone. It is rather more complex like that. There are/were countless families living in depressed areas were only the father could provide an income; where the state funded school wasn't giving the best possible education; and where children were often required to work from the age of 14 in order to help the family survive.

No much choice of giving your children university education and a golden future if they must come down the coal mine with you from the age of 14. If your grandparents had ended up in another country under another circumstances things could have turned up very very differently.

And that is why the state must provided the best possible education and health for those who can afford private health insurance or private education. ‘Will and drive’ I am afraid only stretches so far.

[Blagsta]

Originally posted by Jacqueline the Ripper
Where have I stated, suggested or insinuated that?

here

"It's all about will and drive."

Its not all about will and drive. Its about opportunity and empowerement as well.

[Dear Wendy]

Originally posted by Blagsta
here

"It's all about will and drive."

Its not all about will and drive. Its about opportunity and empowerement as well.

If you have the will, drive and the right priorities you'd work your ass off to get a state-sponsored university degree. You'd bust your ass off to get the top-grades which will allow you to get such a sponsorship.
Will can move mountains.
You know in Auschwitz they had these torture chambers, built up of thick concrete. You'd imagine nothing to be able to go through it. But to this day there are handmarks from people who had been subjugated to God knows what in there and who had been hammering at the walls trying to somehow get out/relief their anger...

[Blagsta]

Its not enough sometimes. If you have not had the opportunity, if you do not even know that those opportunities exist, what you gonna do then?

It is not a level playing field.

[Aladdin]

Believe me Jacqs, all the will and drive in the world would not be of much help if one has to leave school at 14 and get a job.

Like I said, your granparents and parents were very lucky. Had they been born elsewhere your father could have ended up working down the mine regardless of how much he and his father would have wished for a chance of going to university.

Which is an altogether too familiar a story for many people here.

[Dear Wendy]

Do not try to tell me that whoever wilfully seeks a higher education can't get it due to a low income in England.

[Blagsta]

I've known people to drop out of college because they can't afford it.

[Dear Wendy]

Originally posted by Blagsta
I've known people to drop out of college because they can't afford it.

Don't know the circumstances.
But I've come across several people from this site and on LiveJournal who's family couldn't afford sending them to uni, but who recieve grants.

Knowing people from all ranges on the social scale, in a couple of countries, I'd say that I've never come across anyone who gave their all and everything and didn't succeed reaching their (realistical) aim - apart from this girl I knew who died of cancer (the only one I can honestly say that all had been done, yet it wasn't enough).

[BeckyBoo]

Originally posted by Jacqueline the Ripper

But I've come across several people from this site and on LiveJournal who's family couldn't afford sending them to uni, but who recieve grants.



So that must tell you something about the system here ?

Grants dont they all have or majority have to be paid back ? I know that I wouldnt like debt on my hands at such a young age and not know wether you will earn enough to pay it back. (if im wrong about grants I take that last comment back) :)

[Dear Wendy]

Originally posted by BeckyBoo
So that must tell you something about the system here ?

Grants dont they all have or majority have to be paid back ? I know that I wouldnt like debt on my hands at such a young age and not know wether you will earn enough to pay it back. (if im wrong about grants I take that last comment back) :)

Rather be in debt and have a degree, than no degree and no money.

[Blagsta]

Originally posted by Jacqueline the Ripper
Don't know the circumstances.
But I've come across several people from this site and on LiveJournal who's family couldn't afford sending them to uni, but who recieve grants.

You can't get grants for uni in the UK anymore.

[dantheman]

unless you live in scotland.

[Blagsta]

didn't know that

[Dear Wendy]

Originally posted by Blagsta
You can't get grants for uni in the UK anymore.
Then loans.
Either way, they still get the opportunity.

[Renzo]

Originally posted by Jacqueline the Ripper
Then loans.
Either way, they still get the opportunity.

They need to get the grades to go though. I think people from poorer backgrounds have to concentrate on earning money so they can live that week. theres no long term thought. Its either money or qualifications.

[Dear Wendy]

How many people do you know who don't have enough to live for next week?

[Renzo]

Originally posted by Jacqueline the Ripper
How many people do you know who don't have enough to live for next week?

I dont personally. But there are many many on housing estates and other general deprived areas who are.

[Dear Wendy]

Originally posted by Renzokuken
I dont personally. But there are many many on housing estates and other general deprived areas who are.

We've had this discussion before. But from what I undeerstood a lot of the money who goes to such families is wasted on unnecessary crap.

[dantheman]

Originally posted by Renzokuken
I dont personally. But there are many many on housing estates and other general deprived areas who are.

Myself and my sister were brought up on a grotty council estate by working class parents, yet she sister is very bright and went to a private secondary school (4th best in the country) because of a grant (do they still do these for schools?) and went onto university with a loan.
So you can achieve something if you really want it.
Oh and university isn't everything, I didn't go and the only miss the thought of years of free from responsiblity, pot noodles and casual encounters :) not the degree!

[Aladdin]

Originally posted by Jacqueline the Ripper
We've had this discussion before. But from what I undeerstood a lot of the money who goes to such families is wasted on unnecessary crap. That's what the right wing press would have us believe.

The truth is that there are many poor families out there who don't 'waste' the little money they have in any way, and who can't afford to give their children higher education. It's as simple as that.

Had your grandparents been Cornish miners, chances are your father would have had to go down the mine himself at the age of fourteen. Not much chance of going to university for him...

[Blagsta]

Originally posted by Jacqueline the Ripper
How many people do you know who don't have enough to live for next week?

Quite a few of my work clients.

[Dear Wendy]

Originally posted by Aladdin
That's what the right wing press would have us believe.

Which is among others Girl With Sharp Teeth and Kermit.... Interesting observation.

Blagsta, as far as I understood all of your clients are (ex-)adicted. Being that I just got home (don't really know why I am online) I will leave that for another time, as they're under very different circumstances than so many other low-income social groups.

[Blagsta]

You asked a question - I answered it.

[Dear Wendy]

Originally posted by Blagsta
You asked a question - I answered it.

As it wasn't stated you didn't have any means to know so, but my question to Renzo was regarding people our age, who're in college.

[BlackArab]

Well I'm at college and I have mere pennies to live on over the next week, I haven't had a beer in weeks or an Indian takeaway. In fact I have had to agree to whore myself with some modelling and dj-ing next week just to survive :mad: :mad: :mad:

[Blagsta]

I went back to uni as a mature student 4 1/2 years ago. I had a bit of help from my parents, if I hadn't there is no way I could have afforded to do it.

[Renzo]

Originally posted by Jacqueline the Ripper
As it wasn't stated you didn't have any means to know so, but my question to Renzo was regarding people our age, who're in college.

Again these people could have money problems. But anyway the role of the state isnt just weather people go to uni:p How did we get into this? Did i do this? Meh.

[BlackArab]

Thats almost my situation but I start my degree in September and my Access course doesn't qualify for loans and grants.