"Lock 'em up and throw away the key!"

[Kermit]

For those of you who think that the legal justice system should be stricter, not more compassionate, here are two articles for your delectation:

9000 children crying for their mothers. (http://web.ukonline.co.uk/howard.league/press/300303.htm)
The prison suicide scandal. (http://web.ukonline.co.uk/howard.league/press/2004/060104a.htm)

Any justifications?

[BeckyBoo]

Kermit ive said the same in the other thread basically but if women or men do crime then they have to face the consequences.
Again for silly crimes they shouldnt be there in the first place but for constant offenders who have warning after warning or serious crime then they have to face the consequences.

Whos fault is it because a child is left with carers when a mother is imprisoned ? maybe the mother should think about what she is doing before she commited the crime in the first place.

[rachie004]

I agree with BeckyBoo on this one, I don't think (in my opinion) that the legal system can be 'weakened' or you know bend the rules a lil bit because its mothers day

they chose to commit the crime, sure its not fair the children should suffer but you can't blame the legal sytem for it

[Aladdin]

Oh you can blame the legal system for many things I think.

You can blame the legal system for handing out disproportionate sentences.

You can blame the legal system for failing to understand that as well as, or even instead of punishment, rehabilitation and help are paramount to stop re-offending.

You can blame the legal system for failing to understand that it is a human characteristic to make mistakes or disobey authority in some instances, and that all the tough punishments in the world aren't going to stop crime.

You can blame the legal system for bowing to bigotry and popular ignorance and sending to jail tens of thousands of people who shouldn't be there, such as drug users, and for whom a jail sentence and a criminal record will often wreck their lives totally and irreversibly.

Harold Shipman was a rarity. The immense majority of people who commit suicide in jail are young, vulnerable and serving time for minor offences. Some rehabilitation...

[LabRat]

Aladdin is right, the current legal system makes more harm than use and should be abolished. Prisons are not only places of suffering of innocents but also nice training centres for future career criminals.
But an idea of rehabilitation is not better. It is based on the false premise that criminals are some kind of stupid kid who don’t understand what they do. Real criminals know exactly what they do and they are able to distinct white and black. They are not ’victims of bad-organised society’ but human beings, moral agents having free will and a space of choice so they should take full responsibility for their actions.

[Blagsta]

Originally posted by LabRat
Aladdin is right, the current legal system makes more harm than use and should be abolished. Prisons are not only places of suffering of innocents but also nice training centres for future career criminals.

True.

Originally posted by LabRat
But an idea of rehabilitation is not better. It is based on the false premise that criminals are some kind of stupid kid who don’t understand what they do. Real criminals know exactly what they do and they are able to distinct white and black. They are not ’victims of bad-organised society’ but human beings, moral agents having free will and a space of choice so they should take full responsibility for their actions.

Hmmmmmm. I work with ex-offenders and what you say is not really true. While yes, there are some career criminals who consciously make the choice to live a life of crime, the vast majority of people in prison are there because they have had little education, few chances in life, an abusive childhood and some form of substance abuse. Rehabilitation can work in these people.

[BeckyBoo]

So Id like to know what is the best way to rehabilitate people ?

What should happen to a constant offender not just for petty crime but more serious crimes as mugging, rape, G.B.H etc ?

You talk about rehabilitation and yes I have to agree it can work with some people but not with all. So what about the ones it wont work with, they serve their sentence, get out early because of good behaviour and soon as thy are out again turn to crime.

[LabRat]

Originally posted by BeckyBoo
they serve their sentence, get out early because of good behaviour and soon as thy are out again turn to crime.

It’s true. And there is nothing surprising.
Prison authorities to keep up discipline among inmates have to cooperate with most ‘respectful’ of them, those ones who have some informal power over others. Naturally they turn to be career criminals. And their shortened terms are the price for collaboration. So not the best but the worst get out early.

[Aladdin]

Originally posted by BeckyBoo
So Id like to know what is the best way to rehabilitate people ?

What should happen to a constant offender not just for petty crime but more serious crimes as mugging, rape, G.B.H etc ?

You talk about rehabilitation and yes I have to agree it can work with some people but not with all. So what about the ones it wont work with, they serve their sentence, get out early because of good behaviour and soon as thy are out again turn to crime. I wouldn't pretend that everybody can be safely rehabilitated. Nor I would categorise rape, G.B.H. and other violent crime as minor.

But for others there is more hope. Most burglaries for instance are committed by either drug addicts or unemployed, hopeless people who have known nothing other than petty crime. I believe much of that crime can be eradicated by helping the offenders better and not locking them up together with more violent and dodgy types in a hostile and corrupting environment.

[Kermit]

Originally posted by BeckyBoo
What should happen to a constant offender not just for petty crime but more serious crimes as mugging, rape, G.B.H etc ?

I draw your attention to this paragraph:

Women are still sentenced to prison for predominantly non-violent offences. Are sentencers really using prison as a sanction of last resort?

No-one is saying someone who commits GBH on someone should be excused jail, but does stealing a mobile telephone from someones jacket pocket really warrant jail?

As for the re-habilitation, quite simply giving people treatment to come off the drugs, and incentives to stay off them, is enough to curb the crime. Most burglaries are in order to fund drug-taking, and locking someone away for six months or more simply does not cure this problem. Especially given the problems with the chronically underfunded Probation Service, who rate prisoners in terms of public safety only.

Prison should be a sanction of last-resort, not somewhere to send the lowly in society because you dont know what else to do with them. Most female prisoners are inside for politically expedient reasons- the "jail all burglars" mentality of the right-wing loony press.

[Blagsta]

^
for once I agree with you Kermit.

Shocka eh? ;)

[BlackArab]

Me too. Haven't got the figures but I did read somewhere it is cheaper to send someone to the Priory to get off drugs than lock them up in prison without treating the drug habit.

It would make a huge difference if someone could walk into a centre when they need to get off drugs than hanging around for months on a waiting list, stealing to fund their habit.

Less drug addicts=less crime.

[BeckyBoo]

Originally posted by Kermit


but does stealing a mobile telephone from someones jacket pocket really warrant jail?



In all honesty if the person who stole the phone had been to court and given a final warning prior, then yes. You can only give people a certain amount of warnings, if they keep doing crime (even petty crime) eventually they have to face the consequences.

[Whowhere]

A mother should know better than to turn to a life of crime, it obviously shows how much she cares for her child if she knows one day she'll be seperated from him.her

[Blagsta]

Originally posted by Whowhere
A mother should know better than to turn to a life of crime, it obviously shows how much she cares for her child if she knows one day she'll be seperated from him.her

Unfortunately life (and people) aren't that simple.

[Kermit]

Originally posted by Whowhere
A mother should know better than to turn to a life of crime, it obviously shows how much she cares for her child if she knows one day she'll be seperated from him.her

Oh, because life is as simple as that :rolleyes:

Do you seriously think people are HAPPY being heroin addicts? Do you think they WANTED to become addicted to heroin? Do you think they LIKE stealing peoples tellies and selling them for a tenner just to get the next hit?

The law is the law, and the people stealing the tellies should be convicted. But, really, is jail the best place for them, with the rampant drug-dealing, the favouratism and the bullying? The point of a JUSTICE system is that the reasons behind a crime are taken into account, not just the crime itself.

And yes, before anyone asks, when someone nicks my telly I AM pissed off, and think they should be jailed for a long time. But that doesnt mean Im right.

[The Matadore]

Lets be clear: Prison Works.

You can keep your utopia where there are no prisons and everyone runs happily in the meadows and prances and dances in the flowers.

People who break the law must be kept safely locked away, so they cannot harm the majority of hardworking, law abiding citizens.

[BeckyBoo]

Originally posted by Kermit
Do you seriously think people are HAPPY being heroin addicts? Do you think they WANTED to become addicted to heroin? Do you think they LIKE stealing peoples tellies and selling them for a tenner just to get the next hit?



I understand what your saying, I really do but how many chances must you give someone ?
Do you know what fear is put in the victim after they have been mugged or burgled ? They are the innocent people in all this and really they dont want to hear that their offender is on the loose.

[The Matadore]

No, but they have broken the law, and therefore must be punished.

[Blagsta]

Originally posted by The Matadore
Lets be clear: Prison Works.

You can keep your utopia where there are no prisons and everyone runs happily in the meadows and prances and dances in the flowers.

People who break the law must be kept safely locked away, so they cannot harm the majority of hardworking, law abiding citizens.

If prison works, why is the crime rate going up?

[Blagsta]

Originally posted by BeckyBoo
Do you know what fear is put in the victim after they have been mugged or burgled?

Yes.

[Blagsta]

Originally posted by The Matadore
No, but they have broken the law, and therefore must be punished.

Just because something is illegal, it doesn't necessarily follow that its wrong.

[The Matadore]

that its wrong.

It being 'wrong' is irrelevent, if you break the law of the land you must be punished.

[The Matadore]

If prison works, why is the crime rate going up?

Because New Labour is soft on crime. We need harsher punishments and longer sentences. Like the American model.

[Blagsta]

Originally posted by The Matadore
It being 'wrong' is irrelevent, if you break the law of the land you must be punished.

Thats a good route to a totalitarian regime.

Should people be punished for smoking a spliff, dropping an E at a club or having an after hours drink?

[Blagsta]

Originally posted by The Matadore
Because New Labour is soft on crime. We need harsher punishments and longer sentences. Like the American model.

Why was the crime rate going up all the way through Thatchers regime as well then?

[Kermit]

Originally posted by The Matadore
We need harsher punishments and longer sentences. Like the American model.

If the American model is such a wonderful thing, why is Detroit one of the most dangerous places on earth?

[Aladdin]

Oh yeah? I usually find out that most of the people who hold such purist views are the same people who demand not to be punished for breaking the law themselves when they speed in their cars; or when they murder somone because they broke into their house.

Do you subscribe to such views too Mat? Do you, like the Daily Mail, believe the poor motorist should be allowed to break the speed limit and the poor home owner should be allowed to shoot dead intruders without fear of reprisals from the State?

[The Matadore]

Why was the crime rate going up all the way through Thatchers regime as well then?

Maybe Thatcher was too soft on crime as well.

Should people be punished for smoking a spliff, dropping an E at a club or having an after hours drink?

Yes, because they are breaking the law.


Do you subscribe to such views too Mat?

Certainly not.


If the American model is such a wonderful thing, why is Detroit one of the most dangerous places on earth?

The system aint perfect.

[Blagsta]

So whats your solution then?

[Kermit]

Originally posted by The Matadore
The system aint perfect.

And America is the strictest jurisdiction in a democratic country.

Lets take your idea to the limit. Saudis chop your hands off for stealing, flog you for drinking and hang you for murder. Saudi should, therefore, be the safest place in the world- no drinking, no robbery, no murder.

Oh.

[The Matadore]

The American system is not perfect because they have an armed citizenry, which in my view is absolute madness.

My solution? well, an increase in jail sentences for all types of crime, expansion in rehabilitation schemes, capital punishment for murderers.

[Blagsta]

You haven't answered my points.

[The Matadore]

Yes I have , every one of them.

[The Matadore]

If you are found guilty by a judge or jury then you must face the consequences, and incarcaration is better than chopping off hands etc.

costing us more.

Not iof you reorganise the prison system. Its as inefficient as hell at the moment.

hideously expensive

Again, not if you streamline the system.

[Aladdin]

Not all the prisons in the world, not the toughest penalties on earth are going to stop people from committing crime.

It's about time people realised that no one will ever, ever, ever, be able to stop people from, say, taking drugs. And it's about time that instead of saying "well if you break the law you should be punished" realise that approach will never work, and when drug taking at least is concerned it should not be punished at all.

[The Matadore]

Not all the prisons in the world, not the toughest penalties on earth are going to stop people from committing crime.

Probably not, but I didnt say that would happen.

The best we can ever hope for is to reduce the number of crimes and criminals. Sadly, due to the nature of humanity, crime will always exist in one form or another.

[Aladdin]

And that's where common sense should kick in. Since drug consumption is a victimless "crime", instead of taking the Daily Mail approach to life and wrecking people's lives by making them criminals, we should not punish them and look to have archaic laws changed instead.

[The Matadore]

If you have a better solution than retribution id like to hear it.

[Aladdin]

For something like drug use? Yes I do: Decriminalisation.

[BlackArab]

*SHOUTS THIS TIME* more drug treatment on demand

[Dear Wendy]

Originally posted by Aladdin
Not all the prisons in the world, not the toughest penalties on earth are going to stop people from committing crime.


History shows otherwise. It all depends on the consequences.

[BeckyBoo]

Originally posted by BlackArab
*SHOUTS THIS TIME* more drug treatment on demand

I dont like it when your angry ;)

[Aladdin]

Can you name some examples? Because even in the most brutal regimes ever seen like in Afghanistan during the Taliban, people still risked horrible death and broke the law regularly.

BlackArab, I agree about drug treatment for addicts to commit crimes to feed their habit. Sending those people to jail instead only aggravates the problem.

So imagine how I feel about recreational drug users (in this country alone it'd be safe to say half the population under 30?) being in danger of a jail sentence for the 'shocking' crime of taking a few pills or enjoying the odd line of charlie at the weekend.

It's a fucking disgrace to be honest.

[BlackArab]

Originally posted by BeckyBoo
I dont like it when your angry ;)

Not angry our Becks, just trying to get my point across

[BeckyBoo]

Originally posted by Aladdin
BlackArab, I agree about drug treatment for addicts to commit crimes to feed their habit. Sending those people to jail instead only aggravates the problem.



If they have commited a crime then they have to recieve the penalty, whatever it may be. Just because they are an addict does not excuse them.
If they are in prison then it would be easier for them to come off drugs wouldnt it ? They cant mix with their mates on the outside and get the stuff. Also if they are having a hard time withdrawing medical assistance is at hand.

I agree get them off drugs, help them get off drugs, but you can only do that if they want to be free of drugs.

[BeckyBoo]

Originally posted by BlackArab
Not angry our Becks, just trying to get my point across

I know :)

[The Matadore]

Decriminalisation.

That is not a viable solution.

It would only make the drugs problems worse.

And I didnt ask you just for your opinion on drugs.

odd line of charlie at the weekend.

I presume you are taliing about cocaine? The drug that fuels massive civil wars and drugs barons in South America and elsewhere? The drug that ruins peoples lives!! And you want to legalise it! Insane!

[BlackArab]

Originally posted by BeckyBoo
If they have commited a crime then they have to recieve the penalty, whatever it may be. Just because they are an addict does not excuse them.
If they are in prison then it would be easier for them to come off drugs wouldnt it ? They cant mix with their mates on the outside and get the stuff. Also if they are having a hard time withdrawing medical assistance is at hand.

I agree get them off drugs, help them get off drugs, but you can only do that if they want to be free of drugs.


No personal experience on this but drugs are available in prisons and they can mix with their mates from outside during visits. I'm not saying they shouldn't receive punishment if they commit a crime, its just that not addressing the reason for the crime is as bad as the person not being punished.

A friend of mine moved to Bristol initially because there were no agencies to help him where he lived in Somerset, when he tried to get help he was told there was a waiting list for the treatment programme. Now if someone has a raging smack problem can we really expect them to wait for months without help and not commit crime to feed that habit in the meantime?

[BeckyBoo]

Originally posted by The Matadore

I presume you are taliing about cocaine? The drug that fuels massive civil wars and drugs barons in South America and elsewhere?

talking about cocaine take a look Here (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/beds/bucks/herts/3410101.stm)

its these people who need to be severely punished, stop them smuggling it here in the first place.

[Blagsta]

Originally posted by The Matadore
Yes I have , every one of them.

No you haven't. If prison works, why is the crime rate going up?

[BeckyBoo]

Originally posted by BlackArab
Now if someone has a raging smack problem can we really expect them to wait for months without help and not commit crime to feed that habit in the meantime?

Yeah thats true, they should be seen earlier. When someone goes for help they should be seen a lot quicker.

[Blagsta]

Originally posted by The Matadore
Probably not, but I didnt say that would happen.

The best we can ever hope for is to reduce the number of crimes and criminals. Sadly, due to the nature of humanity, crime will always exist in one form or another.

Define "criminal". And don't just say "someone that breaks the law".

[The Matadore]

why is the crime rate going up?

I repeat: Because New Labour is TOO SOFT ON CRIME.

Prison DOES WORK.

New Labours incompetence is to blame here.

[Blagsta]

Originally posted by The Matadore
If you have a better solution than retribution id like to hear it.

Rehabilitation, education, opportunities. Looking at the causes of crime (depends what you mean by crime though), creating a fairer and more equal society, reducing the alienation caused by a consumerist society etc etc etc.

[Blagsta]

Originally posted by The Matadore
I repeat: Because New Labour is TOO SOFT ON CRIME.

What do you mean by "TOO SOFT ON CRIME"? As a phrase itself, its meaningless.

Originally posted by The Matadore
Prison DOES WORK.

Evidence?

Originally posted by The Matadore
New Labours incompetence is to blame here.

Explain.

[The Matadore]

creating a fairer and more equal society, reducing the alienation caused by a consumerist society etc etc etc.

Thats all pie-in-the-sky nonsense.

Rehabilitation, education, opportunities

All true, but the best cure for crime is punishment.

[Blagsta]

Originally posted by The Matadore
That is not a viable solution.

It would only make the drugs problems worse.

Evidence?

Originally posted by The Matadore
And I didnt ask you just for your opinion on drugs.

Its entirely relevant though. Most burglaries, theft etc are to fund drug habits.


Originally posted by The Matadore
I presume you are taliing about cocaine? The drug that fuels massive civil wars and drugs barons in South America and elsewhere? The drug that ruins peoples lives!! And you want to legalise it! Insane!

If it was legalised then that could remove it from being involved in these problems. But you could equally be talking about the oil trade or the arms trade there. Both legal.

[Blagsta]

Originally posted by The Matadore
Thats all pie-in-the-sky nonsense.


Explain how. Your line of argument seems to be to throw meaningless soundbites around. Are you an MP?


Originally posted by The Matadore
All true, but the best cure for crime is punishment.

Evidence?

[BeckyBoo]

Originally posted by Blagsta
If it was legalised then that could remove it from being involved in these problems. But you could equally be talking about the oil trade or the arms trade there. Both legal.

What about non drug related crime ?
How do you get someone back on the straight and narrow ? not every convict is drug dependant.

[Blagsta]

Originally posted by BeckyBoo
What about non drug related crime ?
How do you get someone back on the straight and narrow ? not every convict is drug dependant.

I'm not saying they are. But I think that a lot of crime (again depends on what you mean by crime. Do you mean smoking a spliff, breaking the speed limit or burglary, rape, theft etc.) is due to either personality disorders/mental health problems (rape, serial killers etc) or down to poverty and alienation.

[BeckyBoo]

Originally posted by Blagsta
I'm not saying they are.

Neither am I, im just asking how do we get them out of crime. From sex offenders, car theives, shoplifters etc etc.
They are not all on drugs, so how apart from prison do you stp them from comitting crime ?

[Blagsta]

I don't know. But maybe addressing some of the inequalities in society might be a place to start.

[BlackArab]

Originally posted by BeckyBoo
Neither am I, im just asking how do we get them out of crime. From sex offenders, car theives, shoplifters etc etc.
They are not all on drugs, so how apart from prison do you stp them from comitting crime ?

You never will stop it all Becks but if you are reducing the numbers you could make a significant difference.

[Kermit]

Originally posted by Blagsta
Define "criminal". And don't just say "someone that breaks the law".

That *is* the definition of a criminal though:p

I dont think drugs should be legalised Aladdin, but I dont think that jail is the way to stop people taking them. They are trying it in the US, have been for years, but people still take it. Look at Elizabeth Wurtzel.

The best way to stop people taking drugs is a harder question to answer though.

[Aladdin]

I don't want or need anyone to stop me from taking drugs. I like drugs. That's why I take them. I'm not addicted to them (nor that it should matter to the law if I were) and I do not commit crimes because of them.

As a capable adult I do not recognise anyone's authority, be individuals, governments, law enforcement agencies or anyone else, when it comes to what I choose to consume for my own amusement.

That we are still telling people they cannot do what they please with their own bodies and we're still punishing them if they ignore it is one of the biggest travesties of justice and examples of tyranny in the history of mankind. If you want to measure how evolved and advanced we are as a race or civilisation don’t look at space travel or state-of-the-art technology. Look at the attitude and response to personal freedom matters such as the consumption of drugs. And on that front I’m afraid the human race is on the very early states of evolution. No wonder intelligent life elsewhere has given Earth a miss.

[Blagsta]

Originally posted by Kermit
That *is* the definition of a criminal though:p

I was looking for a deeper debate around the meaning of criminality etc. But never mind. :rolleyes:

[Kermit]

Taking a lot of drugs is not desirable though- but that's a different debate for a different day. It's not so much thev taking of drugs that I object to, it's the sale of them- and decriminalising them allows the drug dealers to get away with murder, effectively.

[Kermit]

Originally posted by Blagsta
I was looking for a deeper debate around the meaning of criminality etc. But never mind. :rolleyes:

I know, I just couldn't resist being a pedant:p

[Blagsta]

Originally posted by Kermit
Taking a lot of drugs is not desirable though- but that's a different debate for a different day. It's not so much thev taking of drugs that I object to, it's the sale of them- and decriminalising them allows the drug dealers to get away with murder, effectively.

Legalising drugs would remove most of the social problems associated with drug use IMO. But as you say - thats another debate.

[Blagsta]

Originally posted by Kermit
I know, I just couldn't resist being a pedant:p

I know, I just couldn't resist using the :rolleyes: smiley :p ;)