France is Busted

[Bandito]

Polish Troops Find...... (http://www.reuters.com/newsArticle.jhtml?storyID=3555989)

It is not the first time Polish troops found ammunition in Iraq but to our surprise these missiles were produced in 2003."


Could this be one of the reasons for such staunch French resistance to military action against Iraq?

[Balddog]

Im rarely surprised at the things the french do but I dont think this is much to worry about. I very much doubt they did actually sell Iraq these things...They are sold to 10 other countries so its far more likely that a group within those countries sold the missiles to iraq, even a group within France..The french government no.

[Clandestine]

A nicely slanted article you've posted Bandito. Convenient that it says " among others Russia, Britain and France all sold arms to Iraq in the 1970s and 1980s." significantly failing to mention that others refers to ourselves and the UK who were responsioble for the vast bulk of arms transfers, financial guarantees and most importantly the sale of bio/chem weapons precursors and the technical knowhow to cultivate them into weapons grade strains.

Another typical attempt to lay the blame off onto everyone else but those who made a charade of international law whilst condemning other nations for failing to adhere to it.

The legal basis applicable to ALL nation states (http://www.lcnp.org/global/Iraqstatemt.3.pdf)

The fair weather friend of Saddam (http://www.fpp.co.uk/online/02/12/Saddam_Rumsfeld.html)

No thought spared for "poor" Iraqis back then (http://www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/wp-dyn?pagename=article&node=&contentId=A52241-2002Dec29&notFound=true)

Even though we knew full well... (http://www.commondreams.org/headlines02/0818-02.htm)

Set him up, knock him down, and profit through it all (http://www.onlinejournal.com/Special_Reports/Chin111402/chin111402.html)

The issue today is not, however, whose motives (other than our own) can we attack, but whether Washington's adamant insistence on invading Iraq on the basis of his refusal to abide by UN resolutions will now translate into Washington's own respect for the authority of UN to take over the reconstruction entirely. Or whether the ongoing string of revelatons of US foreign policy duplicity and spin will merely be whitewashed and swept under the carpet in order to keep the public largely uninformed whilst the minority neo-con agenda continues to galvanise its unilateral control through the installation of yet another puppet regime.

With Chalabi and co dominating the governing processin Baghdad, that seems all too likely the case.

[Aladdin]

The Roland anti-aircraft system is a short-range air defense missile in service with at least 10 countries... ...but it must be the French who sold them to Iraq of course.

I'm afraid I remain skeptic about the whole thing Bandito. Something else comes to mind you see: the "revelation" and "amazing discovery" of paperwork found somehow intact amongst the burnt rubble of an Iraqi building just after the war ended "showing" that France had passed secret information about the Allies to Iraq just before the war.

The story was plastered in the front pages for a couple of days and the warmongers tried to make the most of it, before it sank and disappeared from trace.

We've never heard of again. And for good reason too. The papers were as fake as a nine Pound note, and the story utter bollocks. Just another attempt by the Bush administration to blackmail and punish anyone who dares to oppose the mad Texan.

[Balddog]

Originally posted by Clandestine
ourselves and the UK who were responsioble for the vast bulk of arms transfers,

really? I was under the impression russia and france provided vastly more arms than us..

[Clandestine]

An impression that the spin has intended most people to believe. Simply isnt true.

Saddam was first and foremost the puppet of Washington and London.

[Balddog]

Originally posted by Clandestine
An impression that the spin has intended most people to believe. Simply isnt true.

Saddam was first and foremost the puppet of Washington and London.

No, an impression I got from reading various military sources...

Im aware he was our puppet. Do you have anything that shows we sent more arms than the russians and french? Its surprising considering the vast, vast majority of iraqi hardware is soviet block stuff.

[Clandestine]

Much of it is German too, but what is whitewashed in a surface appraisal of where given companies are located is the fact that many arms companies throughout Europe are merely subsidiaries or satellites of much more affluent and powerful US/UK arms producers.

Go read the articles I posted above and if that doesnt satisfy you then Ill find more.

Sometimes i feel as if posting any supporting material is a waste of time given the immediacy of posts refusing to aknowledge what has long been revealed.

[Balddog]

Im aware of the history between the US/UK and Iraq...The only thing im contesting is your assertion that we sold them more arms.

The attached graph is from the stockholm international peace research institute..Im sure youve seen it before.

[Clandestine]

I am aware of what is claimed. However, much of the statistical survey doesn't paint the whole picture regarding the intricate web of front companies and third country routing of exports.

http://www.jonathanpollard.org/1991/091391.htm

http://www.democraticunderground.com/articles/02/12/13_iraq.html


Excerpt:

Another Senate committee, investigating "United States export policy toward Iraq prior to Iraq's invasion of Kuwait," heard testimony in 1992 that Commerce Department personnel "changed information on sixty-eight licenses; that references to military end uses were deleted and the designation 'military truck' was changed. This was done on licenses having a total value of over $1 billion." Testimony made clear that the White House was "involved" in "a deliberate effort . . . to alter these documents and mislead the Congress."


Nor does it reflect the funding used to purchase the arms.

http://www.pinknoiz.com/covert/iraqgate04.html



Excerpt:

WASHINGTON.-Mr. Henry Kissinger, the former US secretary of state who heads the international consulting firm Kissinger Associates, had business links with Banca Nazionale del Lavoro (BNL), the Italian bank whose branch in Atlanta, Georgia made $4bn In unauthorized loans to Iraq, according to the chairman of the US House banking committee.

BNL's activities in the US are at the center of a wideranging congressional inquiry into how US funds were used to buy militarily useful US technology and equipment until as late as June 1990, a few weeks before the invasion of Kuwait.


I will concede that in terms of "whole platforms" (i.e. fighters, missiles, armoured vehicles, etc) the bulk were of "European design".

Nevertheless, "arms sales" also comprise technological transfers, technical know-how, loan-guarantees for arms purchases, and essential components for further platform development and maintenance.

In the larger scope of the matter, the US we pre-eminent as the ultimate provider across the board.

[Bandito]

Another typical attempt to lay the blame off onto everyone else but those who made a charade of international law whilst condemning other nations for failing to adhere to it.


As opposed to leftist you who blames America for everything.

It must be a real burden to have a hatred of your own country.

Is this why you choose to reside outside her borders?

[Clandestine]

Incapable of addressing the issue intelligently?

You clearly still havent educated yourself as to the difference between one's country and one's government have you Bandito? Instead you gladly subscribe to the nonthinking unquestioning sycophany that this administration and its media cronies have been desperately trying to instill in the public.

Obviously you care nothing for the nation, its increasing isolation and loss of international integrity and the utter mismanagement of economy that has not only squandered a substantial budgetary surplus but has plunged the nation back into protracted deficit spending for which the next generation will be footing the bill.

So long as you can wave your flag and listen to the hatefilled and undemocratic rantings of Rush Limbaugh and Anne Coulter eh?

No, tis you and your ilk who are the traitors if traitors there be, for you would rather shut your eyes to the catalogue of lies that have already been exposed simply because it is a Republican administration in power.

Its obvious youd be screaming your bloody head off if all this had occured on Clinton's watch. So what makes you any more patriotic than we at home or abroad, who aren't blinded by the media spin and are able to see the global repercussions of this administration's wrongheaded policies?

Your condemnation of every legitimate criticism of this administration and its transparent bid for ever increased power and control only contributes to the growing global perception that we are a woefully misinformed and arrogant nation. Those of us working to reverse that perception in foreign lands are only further embarrassed by such nonsense.

[Bandito]

You clearly still havent educated yourself as to the difference between one's country and one's government have you Bandito?

I don't know about that.

Are you saying you supported the Clinton Administration and its foreign policy?

Or are you saying that you oppose any government that is elected by the people of this nation?

Furthermore, using five dollar insults such as your favorite "sycophany" (misspelled BTW) hardly qualifies as an intelligent rebuttal.

[Clandestine]

I do not agree with aspects of the Clinton foreign policy no. In general however Clinton acted with respect for multilateral means of conflict resolution at least up until the ridiculous assaults on him by the very right wingers presently leading us down the primrose path forced him to employ our military foolishly.

As for governments elected by the people, yes i do support them if they do not betray their sworn oaths to uphold the constitution as this one has done in spades. Then again, this administration was not elected by the people, it rigged its way into office with a little help from a largely conservative Supreme Court.

More to the point however, can you actually respond to the materials presented in refutation of the glib right wing gloss and vitriole? or are you merely demonstrating the same penchant for avoiding substantive debate as are the most prominent quasi intellectual hacks on Fox?

[Globe]

Originally posted by Clandestine
Convenient that it says " among others Russia, Britain and France all sold arms to Iraq in the 1970s and 1980s." significantly failing to mention that others refers to ourselves and the UK ...

Usually... there is an inferred relationship between "Britain" and "the UK"...

Perhaps beyond the collaborator's grasp? :rolleyes:

Originally posted by Bandito
As opposed to leftist you who blames America for everything.

It must be a real burden to have a hatred of your own country.

Is this why you choose to reside outside her borders?

You would question why the clandestine-collaborator posits itself directly in within the center of Al Qaeda recruitment?

Gee...

Never thought of THAT, I didn't... ;)

[Clandestine]

You need to find a new tune Thanatos, the needle is starting to skip! :lol:

And thanks for once again demonstrating that you have nothing of value or credible substance to contribute to the issue. Too busy being indoctrinated by Anne and Rush to notice that your vitriole is finding an ever shrinking audience across our great land as well now.

[Bandito]

Then again, this administration was not elected by the people,


Ahhh! So that's what this all boils down to. The old "selected not elected" argument.

Do you remember Judge Sanders Sauls? Wisest Democrat in the State of Florida.

Not to rehash Florida in November of 2000, but can we at least agree that rule of law (as dictated by the US Constitution) prevailed? In a lesser country blood may have been spilled.