British Army

[Shogun]

Should the British army be allowed into Northern Ireland, should there be a united Ireland?

I personally think that life now in N.Ireland would be much better than life in a united ireland but saying that it would never exist, too much shooting, no side of the wall can agree on any matter, it's just a matter of time till the whole thing goes up in smoke again, troubles back again but only this time to a more higher lethal degree.

If there was a united ireland everywhere would have to pay for some things that people in N.ireland get now for free, i say just keep it this way but i don't think the British army have the right to roam the streets like they own the place.

[Clandestine]

Here's a thought,

In order to bring harmony to the whole of Ireland and facilitate a unifcation of North with the Republic, just forge an agreement that outlaws all religious practice! Make the Island atheist, deport all catholic and protestant denominational leaders and voila, no more cause but sheer murderous bloodlust to claim for a pretext to violence! ;)

Besides who wouldnt be keen to see Ian Paisley shipped out in a locked crate!

[monocrat]

The Army are there to simply keep the peace. OK, yes the Nationalists may resent (or have resented) their presence, but I think their presence is necessary.

[dantheman]

of course the British Army have a right to be their as Northern Ireland is a part of the UK.
I don't understand why this crap about protestants & catholics, is still going on both are almost the same religion and both christianity.

[monocrat]

The 'crap' goes on due to historical reasons. Northern Ireland remained British (when the Republic of Ireland was formed) because the six counties of Ulster had a majority Protestant population.

[Clandestine]

Its always been little more than a pretext, dan. The simple underlying root causes of the violence is the history of colonisation itself and prolonged hatred.

[Shogun]

Originally posted by monocrat
The Army are there to simply keep the peace. OK, yes the Nationalists may resent (or have resented) their presence, but I think their presence is necessary.

simply there to keep the peace, that is hardly right it is...do you live in N.Ireland, have you ever lived there before?

[monocrat]

Have you?

The British Army were first sent there to keep the peace. Do you dispute that?

[kevlar85]

Personally, I think Northern Ireland should be reunited with the Republic. Also no I don't think the British Army should be allowed to patrol the streets in Northern Ireland - whenever we have riots or trouble on the mainland we use the local police force and that's what should happen in Northern Ireland. Bolster up the Northern Ireland Police Service and let them keep law and order just as we would any other police force in the UK. Especially as the British Army is far from clean of blood on its hands as Bloody Sunday and the continued trouble between the local population (Nationalists especially) and the army shows.

However, it's unlikely to happen for several decades so for the moment I would propose joint sovereignty over Northern Ireland. First off I'd ban the current Northern Ireland parties and have most of Northern Ireland's affairs run by the Northern Ireland assembly which would be made up of voters having the choice between all British parties and all the Irish parties so they could vote for whoever would best reflect their views and importantly take the religion out of politics. Interest rates would be set at a level half way between the Bank of England rate and the ECB rate. Foreign Affairs concerning the province would be dealt with by a compromise between the British and Irish governments and if they couldn't agree the Northern Ireland Assembly would have the casting vote about who would represent them. Also there need to be more measures to integrate the two communities - firstly by making all schools mixed of the two communities and banning religious education.

[kevlar85]

Originally posted by monocrat
Have you?

The British Army were first sent there to keep the peace. Do you dispute that?

I don't think Henry VIII invaded Ireland to keep the peace Mono. :lol:

[monocrat]

Originally posted by kevlar85
I don't think Henry VIII invaded Ireland to keep the peace Mono. :lol:

Well Britain didn't exist at the time of the Tudors.

I meant the decision of the Wilson governments of the 60's to send troops there.

[kevlar85]

Originally posted by monocrat
Well Britain didn't exist at the time of the Tudors.

I meant the decision of the Wilson governments of the 60's to send troops there.

Maybe Wilson did think he was keeping the peace, however Heath I think certainly had no intentions of keeping the peace and used the army to back the Protestants - he beefed up the numbers of personnel in Northern Ireland increasing tensions and allowed the Bloody Sunday massacre to occur.

[dantheman]

Originally posted by kevlar85
I don't think Henry VIII invaded Ireland to keep the peace Mono. :lol:


Get with the times & get over bloody sunday, that was 30 years ago so there is no point blaming today's army.

[kevlar85]

Originally posted by dantheman
Get with the times & get over bloody sunday, that was 30 years ago so there is no point blaming today's army.

By the fact that they are the British army they will always be a problem in Northern Ireland. Even if governments don't use the army as a tool for the Protestants (like they have in the past) by being British they automatically invite hostility between them and the Nationalists and so they shouldn't be there. Also Bloody Sunday casts a very long shadow over Northern Ireland to this day, ask any Nationalist.

[pnjsurferpoet]

Historically, Northern Ireland is part of the UK.

But so many deaths...I just don't see the worth. Of course, someone could say that's like allowing one of our states to leave. All I can think is separation of church and state. The killings are a good example of why the Englishmen who founded America had that idea put in the constitution.

[monocrat]

Northern Ireland remained British primarily because Protestants/Unionists are in the majority.

The problems in Ireland are all Edward I's fault. :)

[kevlar85]

Originally posted by monocrat
Northern Ireland remained British primarily because Protestants/Unionists are in the majority.

The problems in Ireland are all Edward I's fault. :)

Although the Protestants and Unionists came over to Northern Ireland from Scotland whereas the Catholics and Nationalists are the indogenous population of all of Ireland.

I blame the English establishment with its anti-Catholic attitudes myself - especially it's removal of James II because he was Catholic and his replacement with Protestant William and Mary of Orange.

[Shogun]

Originally posted by monocrat
Have you?

The British Army were first sent there to keep the peace. Do you dispute that?

Yes i have all my life...sent here to keep the peace :rolleyes: yes i do dispute that.

They came here to remove IRA members, if they didn't come here in the first place there wouldn't be as much fighting, walking around the streets acting like they own the place, searching random people, taking people out of their homes in the middle of the night and given no trail or any decent human rights because they were suspected members of the IRA, what a sad thing to do, familys were destroyed, the brits attacked innocent people on the streets who got caught in crossfire with gunfire. America go on about terrorism, N.Ireland has had it in it's fullest degree for 30 years.

[Franglais]

now wouldnt it just be better to disband the british army and become a neutral country?

[Shogun]

Originally posted by fucked up duck
now wouldnt it just be better to disband the british army and become a neutral country?

*sigh* there would still be problems in N.Ireland with Catholic and Protestant paramilitary groups...is it ever going to change?

[dantheman]

you cannot simply take N.Ireland out of the UK because that would be betraying a lot of Northern Irish who like thing the way they are. If 99% wanted out then that's fine, but that will probably never be the case.

[morrocan roll]

it seems to go on forever. no one here on the uk mainland actualy takes much notice anymore when a bomb goes off or a shooting happens. we have been desenstized. its become 'normal'. no one here realy understands it or cares very much.
when grown men strt barricading and or attacking schools it seems a bit sad and sick and then we get the marching season which is totaly beyond my comprehension! demanding to march through an area where they no it's going to cause trouble ...just becuase someone marched down it generations ago ...very strange.

[Shogun]

Yes mroll you are right, it will always go on and on and on and on and on.....orange men want to march down a Nationlist area when they know they don't have the right, it's all going to go up in smoke again.

[kevlar85]

Originally posted by dantheman
you cannot simply take N.Ireland out of the UK because that would be betraying a lot of Northern Irish who like thing the way they are. If 99% wanted out then that's fine, but that will probably never be the case.

We gave Hong Kong back to China when a large majority of Hong Kong residents were in favour of remaining a UK dependency but we got out anyway. Tbh if you asked most British mainland people whether they'd rather have Northern Ireland in the UK and remain at risk from Irish terrorism or let it reunite with the Republic and remove the risk of terrorism most people would pick the latter. Also most British people on the mainland are in favour of a united Ireland anyway and if the Protestants wanted to live in the UK so much they could always move onto the mainland just as we gave right of residency to those in Hong Kong who wanted to live in Britain.

[monocrat]

But the UK had a contractual obligation to give Hong Kong back. That's not the case in Northern Ireland.

[GINGA]

Originally posted by fucked up duck
now wouldnt it just be better to disband the british army and become a neutral country?
Yeh Neutralise its the best option no more innocent soldiers dying in fruitless wars.

[Man Of Kent]

Originally posted by kevlar85
I don't think Henry VIII invaded Ireland to keep the peace Mono. :lol:

This would be the 12th century Henry VIII would it? :p

The English had already invaded by the time Henry got involved.

[kevlar85]

Originally posted by Man Of Kent
This would be the 12th century Henry VIII would it? :p

The English had already invaded by the time Henry got involved.

Yes but we only conquered Ireland after Henry VIII was determined to conquer Ireland. We'd invaded before but never established our ownership of the territory.

[kevlar85]

Originally posted by monocrat
But the UK had a contractual obligation to give Hong Kong back. That's not the case in Northern Ireland.

We only had a contractual obligation when Mrs Thatcher decided to lease Hong Kong from the Chinese between 1984-1997.

[Man Of Kent]

Originally posted by Shogun

They came here to remove IRA members,

Are you sure?

The current troubles began after the UK forces were sent in to defend the Catholics from the Black and Tans...

[morrocan roll]

Originally posted by kevlar85
We only had a contractual obligation when Mrs Thatcher decided to lease Hong Kong from the Chinese between 1984-1997. we got the honk kong leese through opium dealing in victorian times ...where does mrs hatchit come into it?

[dantheman]

kevlar85 who says that most British people want N.I to go back to Ireland? I don't, it wouldn't bother me that much but I like Britain the way it is. Hong Kong is a completly different, it's miles away, it doesn't have centuries of assoiciation, the same culture etc etc. You couldn't just unite NI but with Eire anyway, they've been apart for 80 odd years.

[Shogun]

Originally posted by Man Of Kent
Are you sure?

The current troubles began after the UK forces were sent in to defend the Catholics from the Black and Tans...

And the Uk forces defended the catholics, did they? well maybe they weren't as bad as the black and tans...but still it was pretty obivous they were in favour of the protestant side of the community, i've seen it happening.

[kevlar85]

Originally posted by morrocan roll
we got the honk kong leese through opium dealing in victorian times ...where does mrs hatchit come into it?

Because in 1984 she agreed to hand Hong Kong back in 1997 to what is it's main country - China. So similarly we should hand Northern Ireland back to its main country - Ireland.

[kevlar85]

Originally posted by dantheman
kevlar85 who says that most British people want N.I to go back to Ireland? I don't, it wouldn't bother me that much but I like Britain the way it is. Hong Kong is a completly different, it's miles away, it doesn't have centuries of assoiciation, the same culture etc etc. You couldn't just unite NI but with Eire anyway, they've been apart for 80 odd years.

Opinion polls say that 60% of Britons back a united Ireland and of the remaining 40% a large proportion were of no opinion either way. Also a large majority of people in the Irish Republic want Northern Ireland to return to them, indeed it was in their constitution until not so long ago (removed as part of the Good Friday agreement) and is still the view of most Irish people.

The centuries of association have been miserable for all concerned marked by almost continual violence by the British repressing the Irish on the one side and Irish terrorism on the other. Ireland doesn't have the same culture, it has it's own distinct Celtic culture and its own language. You couldn't unite them overnight but it could be phased in over a decade or so like with Hong Kong.

[monocrat]

Originally posted by kevlar85
We only had a contractual obligation when Mrs Thatcher decided to lease Hong Kong from the Chinese between 1984-1997.

The lease had existed since the 19th century.

[kevlar85]

Originally posted by monocrat
The lease had existed since the 19th century.

Point is we handed back a British dependency to its natural country. So just as Hong Kong went back to China so Northern Ireland should be reunited with the Irish Republic.

[Shogun]

They couldn't just hand N.Ireland back over...it would be too much of a hassle, just think about it, the political system for a start, most normal everyday people in N.Ireland have a good standard of living and if they were joined with the Republic they would be paying for NHS treatment and dentist bills and stuff of the sort, life here in the north is better than in the South.

[Lemur]

the clue is in the title:

northern IRELAND

if the british believed that they had any true claim to a 6 county state over an ocean, then the UK's offical title wouldnt be "The United Kingdom Of Great Britain and Northern Ireland" itd still be called britain.

The scottish protestants that were sent to northern ireland in the nineteenth century are the root of the more modern problems, if it wasnt for that, i think Ireland would be a happier, less oppressed place :/

[monocrat]

Originally posted by Shogun
They couldn't just hand N.Ireland back over...it would be too much of a hassle, just think about it, the political system for a start, most normal everyday people in N.Ireland have a good standard of living and if they were joined with the Republic they would be paying for NHS treatment and dentist bills and stuff of the sort, life here in the north is better than in the South.

People in the Republic now have a better standard of living than those in Ulster.

[Shogun]

Originally posted by monocrat
People in the Republic now have a better standard of living than those in Ulster.

you know this through which means...

[monocrat]

GDP per head for one.

Also a faster growing economy (over the past decade) which would lead to an increased standard of living.

The fact that there is no free health care in the Republic does not necessarily denote a 'worse' standard of living. There is no free health care in the US but on average has a higher standard of living than the UK.

[Lemur]

Originally posted by monocrat
GDP per head for one.

Also a faster growing economy (over the past decade) which would lead to an increased standard of living.

The fact that there is no free health care in the Republic does not necessarily denote a 'worse' standard of living. There is no free health care in the US but on average has a higher standard of living than the UK.

the US does not have higher standard of living on average because of the amount of poverty in the poorer regions, but i think it was shown somewhere that an average white middle class family etc would have better standards of living in the US

anyway, Northern IRELAND should be given back to Ireland in my opinion

[monocrat]

The US has a higher GDP per head than the UK. Whether economic inequality is more extreme is not relevant.

[Aladdin]

It is if 90% of the wealth is owned by 10% of the population.

Or if a majority can't afford a doctor.

Some Arab Kingdoms feature or used to feature at the very top of the GDP list. Go and see the standard of living of the population in those places.

[Yerascrote]

its very annoying when america or english ppl make comments about northern ireland, ie pnj saying northern ireland was historically apart of england, northern ireland didn't even exist until 1922, plus the british army were sent here in august 1969 to calm tensions between human rights marchers (comprised of both catholic and protestant) and their opponents, if u lived here you wud understand the nuisance they cause continually, i.e helicopters flying over ur house at 2 a.m while ur trying to sleep, walking through the streets with guns while children are close by, they shuld b removed then there wud b no trouble, thats what republicans wanted, they said they wud stop if they left, so y don't they

[LonDoNErcHriS85]

Originally posted by kevlar85
We only had a contractual obligation when Mrs Thatcher decided to lease Hong Kong from the Chinese between 1984-1997.

haha no we leased it from china in 1847 to stop the opium wars,(yes a war over heroin!) it was a compromise deal to have the island for 150 years! for the next 50 years though the island has semi independence from the mainland

[RoyalSubject]

The current troubles began after the UK forces were sent in to defend the Catholics from the Black and Tans...

The Black and Tans were Army irregulars, I.E. British Army part timers, sent in to defuse the GPO take over in 1916 (whilst the UVF was aquitting it'self on the field of battle)

Point is we handed back a British dependency to its natural country. So just as Hong Kong went back to China so Northern Ireland should be reunited with the Irish Republic.

2/3rds of the Northern Irish people wish to remain British. What we should say screw them, screw the people on "isla malvinas" and on Gibralter lets tell them that they can't be British any more because we handed Honkers over.


its very annoying when america or english ppl make comments about northern ireland, ie pnj saying northern ireland was historically apart of england, northern ireland didn't even exist until 1922, plus the british army were sent here in august 1969 to calm tensions between human rights marchers (comprised of both catholic and protestant) and their opponents, if u lived here you wud understand the nuisance they cause continually, i.e helicopters flying over ur house at 2 a.m while ur trying to sleep, walking through the streets with guns while children are close by, they shuld b removed then there wud b no trouble, thats what republicans wanted, they said they wud stop if they left, so y don't they

Turlough are you actually living in Ulster? Surely you can see that the IRA are no longer a republican organisation but drug runners like the UVF/UDA

the clue is in the title:

northern IRELAND

Actually no. Ulster has always been seperate from the other three counties. Even the people are different. Ulster is one of the places inhabited by Vikings, the only other major place in Ireland is Dublin (Blackpool as my family like to call it)



The scottish protestants that were sent to northern ireland in the nineteenth century are the root of the more modern problems, if it wasnt for that, i think Ireland would be a happier, less oppressed place :/
When? It should be noted that those Scottish tended to be from areas that had been conquered and inhabited by the Irish years before hand. That's right Albany belonged to ikkle Erin.

Opinion polls say that 60% of Britons back a united Ireland and of the remaining 40% a large proportion were of no opinion either way. Also a large majority of people in the Irish Republic want Northern Ireland to return to them,

Well if the Irish people want it!!!![/sarcasm] 60% of Britons many of whom (as shown by this thread) know little or nothing of Ireland and have no business with it. Sure it would be nice just to go screw it it costs too much in lives and taxes to keep Northern Ireland lets give it back. That's fine for someone who doesn't come from there. Of the people there just under 2/3rds want to stay British (many of the 1/3 who don't have been tactically moved into Ulster to gain Sínn Fein vital seats.)

You tend to hear only one side as well. Loyalists are not good with their PR.

[Tim the Enchanter]

Originally posted by RoyalSubject

You tend to hear only one side as well. Loyalists are not good with their PR.

Loyalists aren't good with their spelling, never mind PR! Sorry had to be said...

[Yerascrote]

yes i am from ulster, the IRA are a dead organisation in terms of armewd struggle but they continue to hand out punishment beatings, there is a small of drug dealing in the IRA but this is restricted to west and north belfast, in other areas the IRA are anti-drug, they even set up the DAAD, direct action against drugs which killed numerous people over the past couple of years, it is the loyalists who are the main drug dealers.

[kevlar85]

Originally posted by RoyalSubject
2/3rds of the Northern Irish people wish to remain British. What we should say screw them, screw the people on "isla malvinas" and on Gibralter lets tell them that they can't be British any more because we handed Honkers over.
If they wish to remain British give them British citizenship and a right of passage to the mainland like we did with those in Hong Kong. I don't want to stop people being British if they want to be British but I don't see the point in us hanging onto the dregs of our colonial past especially when it costs us in terms of defending these places and these places have little productive worth. The Falklands War was called by one of the top generals in the military at the time as "a grubby little war", we didn't even enter into negociations with the Argentines to solve the issue which led to hundreds of soldiers deaths and the huge cost of defending what are basically a few barren rocks off Argentina. If these people want to be British - let them live in Britain.

Actually no. Ulster has always been seperate from the other three counties. Even the people are different. Ulster is one of the places inhabited by Vikings, the only other major place in Ireland is Dublin (Blackpool as my family like to call it)
Get your terms right some of Ulster is actually in the Irish Republic because it contained a majority Catholic population in 1922 and a majority Catholic population would have been reached a lot sooner, so maybe you should use the correct term of Northern Ireland.

Well if the Irish people want it!!!![/sarcasm] 60% of Britons many of whom (as shown by this thread) know little or nothing of Ireland and have no business with it. Sure it would be nice just to go screw it it costs too much in lives and taxes to keep Northern Ireland lets give it back. That's fine for someone who doesn't come from there. Of the people there just under 2/3rds want to stay British (many of the 1/3 who don't have been tactically moved into Ulster to gain Sínn Fein vital seats.)
The Irish people want it. The British people don't. Simple solution - give it back. Voila no more terrorism or lives pointlessly lost. Those who want to stay British can move to the mainland like those who wanted to stay British when Hong Kong was handed to the Chinese did. Why not mention the Scottish Protestants who have for generations been tactically moved to Northern Ireland to keep a Protestant majority.

[RoyalSubject]

Get your terms right some of Ulster is actually in the Irish Republic because it contained a majority Catholic population in 1922 and a majority Catholic population would have been reached a lot sooner, so maybe you should use the correct term of Northern Ireland.


You are right. Co.Donegal, Cabhan and Monaghan are indeed part of ROI however we ulstermen still call Northern Ireland, Ulster. There's facts and there's life.

If they wish to remain British give them British citizenship and a right of passage to the mainland like we did with those in Hong Kong. Yes a mass exodus of all those people? And why? Why should they give in to terrorist demands and leave there homes and lives behind? Ulstermen (or 6/9 counties at least) are British and the majority of those people want to stay British and stay there in their own homes. I don't know what world you live in it's obviously not this one! Honk Kong and Northern Ireland are 2 completely different nuts. Just because Honkers cracked doesn't set a precident for this one.

Loyalists aren't good with their spelling, never mind PR! Sorry Tim, Educated under a Labour government, need I say more?

[kevlar85]

Originally posted by RoyalSubject
You are right. Co.Donegal, Cabhan and Monaghan are indeed part of ROI however we ulstermen still call Northern Ireland, Ulster. There's facts and there's life.
In fact the official term is now Northern Ireland and so you are Northern Irish officially. As I'm sure you're aware the references to Ulster were phased out in the late 80s as it is offensive to those in the Nationalist communities.

Yes a mass exodus of all those people? And why? Why should they give in to terrorist demands and leave there homes and lives behind? Ulstermen (or 6/9 counties at least) are British and the majority of those people want to stay British and stay there in their own homes. I don't know what world you live in it's obviously not this one! Honk Kong and Northern Ireland are 2 completely different nuts. Just because Honkers cracked doesn't set a precident for this one.
Despite your wish to paint a majority of the British people, a large majority of the Irish people not to mention about half the Northern Irish people terrorists that's just not the reality of the situation. I live in this world - the world where approximately half the Northern Irish community are Nationalists, where a majority of the British people want rid of Northern Ireland and where something like 80% of the Irish people want the rest of their country back. You want to stay British - come and live in Britain then. Fact is it's not a matter if Northern Ireland rejoins the Republic it's when.

Sorry Tim, Educated under a Labour government, need I say more?
Yeah you could explain why despite admitting your bad spelling you still seem to lack the ability to find a dictionary or is that Jim Callaghan's fault too? :rolleyes:

[RoyalSubject]

Yeah you could explain why despite admitting your bad spelling you still seem to lack the ability to find a dictionary or is that Jim Callaghan's fault too?

I don't really give a damn for a message board like this. But let me put some phonetic Irish down and lets have you spell that eh?

Pogue mah hown!





(ans: Póg ma Thoíne)

[Tim the Enchanter]

Originally posted by RoyalSubject


Pogue mah hown!



Pogue mah hone :p

[RoyalSubject]

yeah I was struggling with the phonetic for that. I thought maybe Hown would do if people thought of ghetto whores (Ho's) But I submit. Hone is a better phonetic varient although you loose the "ho-n" element to the word.

Damn English!

[Yerascrote]

you both got the wrong spelling of it, it's
pog mo thoin

[RoyalSubject]

You will see a PHONETIC spelling. And its mÁ thoinE

[Yerascrote]

thats still wrong, "mo" is not pronounced ma, and thoin is not prounounced thoinE, its prounounced pog moh hone

[kevlar85]

Originally posted by RoyalSubject
I don't really give a damn for a message board like this. But let me put some phonetic Irish down and lets have you spell that eh?

Pogue mah hown!





(ans: Póg ma Thoíne)

Quite frankly I have no desire to kiss you on any part of your body, sorry to disappoint you.

Do fúl ort!

[RoyalSubject]

Turlogh try reading the last few posts.

Imeacht gan teacht ort, Kevlar.

Go raith maith agat is oíche maith! RS!