Sooooooooooooooooo

[Dear Wendy]

Currently in Israel, and as the situation here is pretty cooled down comparing to last time I visited, I decided to open a can of worms, just to see some action in some kind of way.

Will Sharon prove that Likud is the way to gain peace? Things are nowhere near perfect, there's still hell of a lot of way to go, but as mentioned the situation is a lot calmer and seems to be nearer the right direction than before.

So now I am wondering what the oracles of the site think?

Shalom (hopefully) and Take care.
I'll be back in "dull" Denmark in two days. See ya!

[pnjsurferpoet]

Looks hopeful to me for a lot of reasons...including the fact that Saddam's sons are now dead.

Be careful. Come on safe.

[morrocan roll]

Originally posted by Jacqueline the Ripper
Currently in Israel, and as the situation here is pretty cooled down comparing to last time I visited, I decided to open a can of worms, just to see some action in some kind of way.

Will Sharon prove that Likud is the way to gain peace? Things are nowhere near perfect, there's still hell of a lot of way to go, but as mentioned the situation is a lot calmer and seems to be nearer the right direction than before.

So now I am wondering what the oracles of the site think?

Shalom (hopefully) and Take care.
I'll be back in "dull" Denmark in two days. See ya! you lucky lucky girl! hope you have a great time and a safe one.
as for the road map ...hasn't realy begun yet.

[Aladdin]

Originally posted by pnjsurferpoet
Looks hopeful to me for a lot of reasons...including the fact that Saddam's sons are now dead.
As usual you keep mixing up issues that have nothing to do with each other. :rolleyes:

Things are indeed quiet Jacqueline, and let's hope they stay that way. But for that to happen there has to be real progress, and it'd seem that once again Sharon is lagging behind in his promises.

As things stand the Palestinians got as rotten a deal as you could get, and unless some real concessions are made soon Hamas and others will lose patience. Sharon must, once and for all, release those Palestinian prisoners as part of the roadmap accord and tackle the infernal settlements and the Apartheid Wall.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/leaders/story/0,3604,1003208,00.html

[Shogun]

Enjoy your time away Jacq but pnj, why did you say that? it has nothing to do with her topic AND have you seen the bodies of saddam's son's or any concrete evidence that they are dead?

[dantheman]

Nothing is going to happen unless each side starts respecting the other, starting with the leaders who should set an example to their people.
I think the two need to sort it out amongst themselves with less outside interference, I don't think Bush's (even though his intentions may be good) or the UK influence helps much as Palestinians would view him with suspicion as they think of him as (justly or unjustly) pro Israel.

[The Matadore]

Peace in the Middle East? Nah , twill never happen.

[Aladdin]

And like I predicted yesterday...

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/3089569.stm

:rolleyes:

[Clandestine]

Al, its fairly easy to see how disingenuous the brokering of this process is and has always been so long as Washington plays the leading role whilst continuing to finance and arm the Israelis. This is merely the latest round in the war of words and intransigence on the part of Israel which will ultimately demonstrate the futility of any concessions on the Palestinian side.

I think we both agree that all liklihood is that the violence will once again erupt within a few months at the rate things are going.

[pnjsurferpoet]

Aladdin and Shogun, I read Saddam was paying for suicide bombers in Israel in a couple of places. That's not true? I'm honestly asking. Also Saddam was seen as a hero because he allowed Palestinians to study for free at Baghdad University. Taken together, he was involved in the what-ever-we-call-it , war? uprising? waste of human life between the Palestinians and Israel.

[Aladdin]

Saddam never paid a single penny to suicide bombers. He did give money to the families of dead bombers, but as it has been discussed here many times this had absolutely no influence in the number or frequency of suicide bombers.

What Saddam did as well was to give millions in aid to the Palestinians (since they lack the billions of Dollars per year aid the other side gets). And since the fall of Saddam a lot of people have been in an even greater precarious situation.

And I hope you do not object to Palestinians getting an education. It's not if they have much of a chance in their own "country".

But let's stop talking about Saddam here, since as I said it is completely unrelated to the Israeli-Palestinian conflict.

I too believe violence will soon resume Clan. Call me a cynic but Sharon tactics seem all too apparent to me. Obtain maximum amount of concessions from the Palestinians (as if they had much to offer anyway :rolleyes: ) while giving fuck all in return and wait for a return to violence so he can justify not dismantling the illegal settlements or the Apartheid Wall of Evil.

[Clandestine]

Saddam as well as many other Arab leaders provided compensatory payments after the fact to the families of suicide bombers, pnj. He did not fund the bombers nor the bombings. It was merely a gesture of support for an oppressed people who themselves suffer daily untelevised violence at the hands of the IDF and its Likhud masters.

If you researched how much money Washington has given to actually fund acts of violence itself, youd not be considering payments from Saddam to be all that big an issue (and certainly not an issue that plays any influential role in the cycle of violence).

The cycle of violence is supported sufficiently by the refusal of both the Israeli government or its Washington financiers to abide by nearly 30 years of UN resolutions and end the occupation and wanton killing of Palestinian men women and children.

When and if that ever comes to pass, then and only then do I believe youll see real progress toward peace.

[pnjsurferpoet]

The Palestinians and Arabs wanted the US to take the lead role. Perhaps, because we give millions to them too. In fact, Egypt is dependent upon the US at this point for seeing any growth in their economy.

I think the peace process will progress because Hamas and Hezbollah (Syria) know the US will come into their country and kick their ass if they don't. Don't you think that was the good outcome of the Iraqi war? I do. It made Saudi Arabia get serious about fighting Al Qaeda.

[Clandestine]

Not only do you continue to insist on combining the separate issues of Iraq and The Israeli/Palestinian conflict, but now you throw Al Qaeda into your salad of confused analysis. :rolleyes:

pnj, if the US perpetrated overt violence against Palestinian organisations which fight against the unceasing assault of Israeli oppression, occupation and outright slaughter then Washington would be universally revealed as completely in bed with Israel and in no way a credible broker for peace.

It would essentially be political suicide for the Bush admin (or any admin) to undertake such an action and they know it. Furthermore it would provide perhaps the biggest feather in the cap of radical extremists and undermine completely the supposed WoT leading to an even greater backlash in the future.

Stop applauding Washington and Tel Aviv, and start looking past all the bogus "terrorist" labels that US media is so fond of applying to this and other global conflicts or youll never comprehend the real evil in play in these situations.

[Dear Wendy]

So far Palestinians have gotten brand new police cars, and their security forces are getting help from Israel while re-establishing themselves.

[Shogun]

Originally posted by Jacqueline the Ripper
So far Palestinians have gotten brand new police cars, and their security forces are getting help from Israel while re-establishing themselves.

at least there is some progress.

[morrocan roll]

Originally posted by Shogun
at least there is some progress. bet you a tenner it's a sham!

[Shogun]

Originally posted by morrocan roll
bet you a tenner it's a sham!

:lol: probably

[Clandestine]

Compared to the real issues on which Likhid refuses to budge in the interest of mutual demonstrations of the will to peace, police cars and some "help" killing or interring more Palestinians is hardly significant "movement" on Sharon's part.

Im inclined to agree with you as well MR, just more smoke and mirrors.

[Aladdin]

In the meantime, life carries on as usual for the Palestinians.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/3095765.stm

[Dear Wendy]

Go on.

The mentality behind the kind of replies you're coming with are the ones slowing down the peace process.

[Clandestine]

oh please Jacq, the peace process has been and will continue to be disingenuous to the utmost whilst Likhud plays at charades and soundbites over substantive adherence to nearly 30 years of disregarded UN resolutions.

Add to that the clearly one sided brokering by Washington which singlehandedly fuels the Israeli machinery of random and sustained massacre, and you have a recipe for the eventual resumption of violence when the Palestinians see that all their concessions are merely met with maintenance of the status quo on the other side.

The mentality which panders to that rather than decrying its hypocrisy is the mentality which has undermined the process at every turn. It is the mentality of the Likhud and Washington negotiators and the only one which is responsible for continuing the debacle.

[Dear Wendy]

Peace is possible, but dwelling on wrongs won't get anyone anywhere.
Both sides have had their share of grief, and continually face hardships caused by "the others"- Constantly pointing to it, instead of working on something mutual, will of course make the gap wider.

[Aladdin]

That is easy to say when one side is the victim of 1% of wrongdoings (while the other side gets the other 99%).

The fact is that as things stand the Palestinians have an immensely rotten deal. Sharon's strategy is to continue to ignore his obligations with regard to the illegal settlements, the Apartheid Wall, the right of return for refugees, the liberation of prisoners, the full withdrawal of troops and the return of ALL occupied land as per 1967 borders and endless UN resolutions.

Even if a full and permanent peace accord was signed tomorrow and the Palestinians given what's left of their land as it stands today, they would have a territory surrounded by concentration camp-style walls and with Israeli settlements, roads and army posts having fragmented their land and reduced it by a very considerable amount.

So when the ceasefire is finally broken in a few weeks/months by malcontent Palestinians dismayed at the lack of progress on these vital issues, Sharon will try to claim the high ground and say "we stop the siege on their towns, we remove the roadblocks, we even give them police cars, and this is how they repay us".

Etc etc ad infinitum.

[Clandestine]

Precisely. This is the same ploy as used by Barak when he railroaded the Palestinian committment on the Camp David 2000 accords into renewed violence by demanding more and more concessions until the whole agreement became a farce in the eyes of the Palestinians.

Then of course, the international press was all too happy to play party to the farce and broadcast Israeli claims that it was the Palestinians fault. We're just back at the same game all over again.

[Dear Wendy]

:yes:

Perfect display of how peace plans get broken.
Simply no want of getting forward, but rather going back to where we were.

[Clandestine]

If enough Israelis tell that to Sharon maybe he'd be forced to act genuinely and then we might get somewhere.

[Dear Wendy]

And now is the time for me to leave this thread.

[Aladdin]

I have no doubt you and many others want the peace process to be a success Jacqs. Including many in the Israeli government. And who could blame them? They haven't given a single concession towards the peace process other than lifting the siege and getting some soldiers out- which is what they should have done anyway, regardless of any peace process that might be taking place.

But I'm telling you: unless the Israeli government gives some real concessions soon (and we're not talking about their obligations, which should not be used as negotiating chips) the ceasefire will be over soon. And when that happens, think very carefully about who should be blamed for it.

[Dear Wendy]

RIP :(

[Aladdin]

Something I've missed?

[pnjsurferpoet]

The US just gave 20 million to the Palestinians...one of the few people on earth cheering after 9/11.

Araft's wife has had some nice shopping sprees in London on US money.

There's lot's of reason for failures in the Middle East. For their own good, Arabs need to also look at themselves and their leaders to affix blame.

Clandestine, you are a sincere person but the EU can't take a high moral ground after laundering Saddam's money in both French and Luxemborg banks and after providing Castro with recently, $16.4 million in aid...which he has now rejected. The EU is either on the moral high ground...or it isn't. and you either have the same standards for it regarding both what you say is your country...the US and where you live...in a country that is a member of the EU...or you're not being morally consistent.

There's no reason to trust the EU in negotiations...unless the bigger the EU entities become, the better it is for where you live.

[Dear Wendy]

Originally posted by pnjsurferpoet

Araft's wife has had some nice shopping sprees in London on US money.



She is firmly secured in Paris with "their" daughter, funded by the drug smuggling which occured after the Oslo agreements.

[Aladdin]

Originally posted by pnjsurferpoet
The US just gave 20 million to the Palestinians...one of the few people on earth cheering after 9/11. I didn't see anyone cheering. Did you? Are you referring to the footage of Palestinians "celebrating" the attacks that turned up to be old footage for something else someone managed to broadcast "by mistake"?

But even if there were 100 idiots on the street celebrating there were 2,000,000 than were not. You surely aren't suggesting all Palestinians shared that feeling and therefore should have not received any aid, are you pnj?


Araft's wife has had some nice shopping sprees in London on US money. Dream on.


Clandestine, you are a sincere person but the EU can't take a high moral ground after laundering Saddam's money in both French and Luxemborg banks Your ignorance regarding the EU is breathtaking.


and after providing Castro with recently, $16.4 million in aid So? Should we go through the list of dictatorships, mass murderers and butchers the US government has given money to?

[Clandestine]

pnj, Saddam's money was laundered for far longer through our own US banks and enterprises, factor that into your pontificating before pointing the finger anywhere else.

You are champion at continuously slamming every other nation or grouping of nations before addressing the very ground you stand upon.

Is there inconsistency universally across the whole of the political spectrum? Yes, that's politics. But the EU maintains respect for multilateral mechanisms for dealing with global issues that the Bush admin has shown itself incapable and unwilling to do in their cowboy shoot em up style.

There is no inconsistency to my decrying what I see as a profound misadventure and misdirection in the positions and policies of the current regime in Washington. They give money to numerous countries with hideous human rights records and the EU gives to its share as well. Nothing new or shocking there.

As for your snide remarks about money to given to the Palestinians, I would remind you that 20 million is a drop in the bucket compared to what is passed in the other hand to the fascist Israeli war machine which continues to build its prison camp walls around Palestinian areas, refuses to make substantive progress in dismantling settlements, uses its obigations illegitimately as bargaining chips, and continues to maneuvre the situation such that no real progress will be achieved and violence will eventually resume, giving them more room for casting blame on anyone but themselves.

[Dear Wendy]

Originally posted by Aladdin
I didn't see anyone cheering. Did you? Are you referring to the footage of Palestinians "celebrating" the attacks that turned up to be old footage for something else someone managed to broadcast "by mistake"?



I saw them here in Denmark, I live pretty close to the US embassy. There was a group of them in cars, waving the Palestinian flag, and cheering out of the car in front of the embassy.

One of my uncles in Israel lives in the French Hill quarter, which is actually the same neighbourhood as the arabs who got funding from Kuwait and Bahrain to build villas, there they said they saw celebrations as well.

[Clandestine]

And these small groups are thus representative of all Palestinians is that it, Jacq?

[Dear Wendy]

Originally posted by Clandestine


As for your snide remarks about money to given to the Palestinians, I would remind you that 20 million is a drop in the bucket compared to what is passed in the other hand to the fascist Israeli war machine which continues to build its prison camp walls around Palestinian areas, refuses to make substantive progress in dismantling settlements, uses its obigations illegitimately as bargaining chips, and continues to maneuvre the situation such that no real progress will be achieved and violence will eventually resume, giving them more room for casting blame on anyone but themselves.

13 out of 15 settlements which were in a plan to be taken down, have been put down.

[Dear Wendy]

Originally posted by Clandestine
And these small groups are thus representative of all Palestinians is that it, Jacq?

When have I said that? Stop puttingwords into my mouth.
Just showing a bit of contrats to Aladdins statement, which made it sound like no rejoicing by Palestinians occured at all.

Now go on, want to distort and twist more of what I say? Go on, I see that is your specialty.

[pnjsurferpoet]

I didn't see anyone cheering. Did you? Aladdin.

I believe you didn't Aladdin as I do believe you are a decent person. That's number one. Number two if confirms my thinking that the bbc is biased.

[Aladdin]

As I'm sure there were in many other places on earth. Hell, for all we know there might have even been a few bible-belting, Ann Coulter-reading, trailer park morons who weren't too displeased at the attacks on godless Liberal New Yorkers. But no one would use such cases to try to accuse a whole nation of supporting the attacks. Well, no one other than pnj.

[Aladdin]

LOL. Here we go with the BBC again...

The footage of Palestinians firing weapons into the air and celebrating was shown worldwide on all TV stations... But whereas real celebrations might have taken place by a few idiots the footage in question turned up to be a few months old.

And you are avoiding the question. Are you suggesting that the whole Palestinian nation was celebrating the attacks?

[Clandestine]

Well Jacq, nice to see that you read as well as you respond. :rolleyes:

I asked you a question. I did not "put words in your mouth" or "twist" what you said. It was merely a call for you to clarify what you were driving at with your commentary about the odd group here or there rejoicing, given that pnj seeks any opportunity to dismiss or condemn entire people groups for the behaviour of a few idiots.

Funnily enough, he doesnt seem to make similar extrapolations based on the shameful behaviour of our political leaders. I suppose to him all US/UK citizens are pure as the driven snow and can do no wrong.

[pnjsurferpoet]

Are you suggesting that the whole Palestinian nation was celebrating the attacks?

The reports at the time said it was only a relatively small group celebrating. So that's what I think.

[Aladdin]

So if you think it was only relatively small group that was celebrating why did you throw in the comment about "the US giving money to the Palestinians... one of the few people on earth cheering after 9/11"? Don't you think that comment is generalising?

[Dear Wendy]

Originally posted by Clandestine
Well Jacq, nice to see that you read as well as you respond. :rolleyes:

I asked you a question. I did not "put words in your mouth" or "twist" what you said. It was merely a call for you to clarify what you were driving at with your commentary about the odd group here or there rejoicing, given that pnj seeks any opportunity to dismiss or condemn entire people groups for the behaviour of a few idiots.



To be honest, you have the same pattern of replying over and over again, don't need to be a genius to get your style, and still I foolishly enough waste time on replying to your pathetic posts.

Now go on and complain about the fascist Israelis, their similarity to the nazis etc, all while ignoring soldiers like Oleg Shaichat.

[Clandestine]

Ah so rather than be bothered adressing your own persistent glossing over of anything that the Israeli government might be far more accountable for in this ongoing struggle, you fall back to non-thinking position which permits you to call everyone else biased and blinkered for daring to point out the truth of the matter.

Sure it takes two to make a conflict, but it takes two to make peace too Jacq, and frankly the history of successive attempts in the past 10 years to reolve this conflict have been scuppered by the intransigence of the Israel negotiators and the govt and always claiming "security concerns" as the main excuse.

Well railroading the process time and again has certainly given the IDF more shooting and rocket practice, but it hasnt brought the nation of Israel any greater security.

So instead of running away from the question put to you, why not spare us the profiling and just answer the question?

Unless you are intent on diverting the topic of this thread into one of personal biases and character studies.

Oh and just to be clear, I never called "Israelis" fascists, although the government and its policies are visibly so, and that is what concerns me. Nice dodge though! ;)

[Dear Wendy]

You're thick. Truly and simply. How had is it to remember what I wrote a page back in this thread?
You do not digest at all, what is being written.

Btw, if kidnapings and bombs aren't good enough to be categorised as a security concern, then tell me what is?

[pnjsurferpoet]

Don't you think that comment is generalising?
Aladdin.

Yes, it was. That's the problem with my personality...saying exactly what I think at the moment...and the Internet.

Like I've also said...and it's true...Muslims have been the most help after 9/11 because they could infiltrate the extremists.

[Man Of Kent]

Originally posted by Clandestine
I asked you a question. I did not "put words in your mouth" or "twist" what you said.

Sorry to be pedantic, but you tried to paraphrase what she said, adding your own spin and then covering that by phrasing it as a question.

Nowhere did she suggest that this was representative of Palestinians as a whole, in fact the first line pointed out that these people were in Denmark and she added a further account (as hearsay) from Israel.

I thought it was a pretty clear [eyewitness] rebuttal of Aladdin's assertion that no Palestinians "celebrated" the WTC attacks.

I know that the Israeli Govt sucks (to put it mildly) but let's not pretend that all segments of the Palestinian society are as angelic as you seem to want us to believe.

[Clandestine]

Nor did I suggest that all segments of Palestinian society are angelic.

As for my response to Jacq, rather than the all too typical and expected dodge and run response I got I was simply testing to see whether her response to Al was also indicative of a tacit agreement with pnj's standard blanketing of entire people groups based on his belief that what is on tv represents the "masses".

Instead, without so much as a single curt remark against her personally, I get ridiculous and childish vitriole and insult instead.

No skin off my teeth either way, but highly amusing to see Jacq incapable of clarifying her stand with reference to that of pnj's to which Al was responding.

Simple really, she takes Al to task and leaves herself appearing to defend the slanted media view that fuels our NJ surfer friend.

All you had to do Jacq without the, PMS plate throwing tantrum, was answer a simple question with a simple one line (or even one word) response. Instead we get hysterics.

A credit to your intellectual capacity for debate! :rolleyes:

[Dear Wendy]

You're doing it again.

Your analysing skills are worth shit, if you can't understand simple posts. Let alone catch the point of them.

[Clandestine]

Originally posted by Jacqueline the Ripper
You're doing it again.

Your analysing skills are worth shit, if you can't understand simple posts. Let alone catch the point of them.

Ah so now you wish to be obtuse and evasive when questioned much like monocrat is that it Jacq?

Do let us know when her highness will deign to answer with anything more than snide quips.

Perhaps though you need it spelled out for you. You responded to Al in such a way as to suggest agreement with pnj's bogus generalisation that "Palestinians" as a people cheered the attacks. Since your response to Al did not dispell such a possibility, I simply requested you to clarify whether you were or were not associating with that sort of narrow minded reactionism.

I think the answer to that is fairly obvious though given your tirade. :rolleyes:

[Dear Wendy]

Originally posted by Clandestine
Ah so now you wish to be obtuse and evasive when questioned much like monocrat is that it Jacq?

Do let us know when her highness will deign to answer with anything more than snide quips.

Perhaps though you need it spelled out for you. You responded to Al in such a way as to suggest agreement with pnj's bogus generalisation that "Palestinians" as a people cheered the attacks. Since your response to Al did not dispell such a possibility, I simply requested you to clarify whether you were or were not associating with that sort of narrow minded reactionism.

I think the answer to that is fairly obvious though given your tirade. :rolleyes:

From my own encounter I mentioned that I saw them as a group. Group should be a keyword.

MoK had no difficulties understanding that, doesn't seem like anyone else had either, but if you want to continue displaying your stupidity then go on, I have time.

Another thing, as much as you dislike both pnj and me, please do not assume that we agree on all and everything, or anything else in that direction. I am perfectly capable of having my own goddamn opinion without leaning up to anyone forming a "daisy chain jerking circle".

[Clandestine]

MoK chooses to be pedantic when it suits him as do I. Your answer, without further clarification, did in fact suggest a tacit accord with pnj's prior contention insofar as you took Al to task but not pnj.

That I have to point that out to you says little of your own intelligence and comprehension, so Id advise you to follow the whole thread rather than merely the preceeding post if you have trouble determining why questions are put to you in the first place.

As for liking or disliking, I have no feelings either way toward you or pnj. Toward your positions perhaps more often than not, but not knowing either of you I am not given to dismissing you as a person as you appear wont to do with those who dare criticise the government of Israel.

[pnjsurferpoet]

Like I said somewhere...that sight of celebrating Palestinians came to mind...but I'd hope most people wouldn't feel that way. Fact is, I think most people worldwide are people like you'd have in any society. You probably have people who are angry at everything and everyone, you have the neighborhood gossip, people who are too into their religion, people who aren't religious...that's my viewpoint of every country. Basically, I think people are people.

[Aladdin]

One image I remember however was of Arafat donating blood for the 9/11 victims. In fact he was the only politician/head of state I remember donating blood.

[pnjsurferpoet]

Aladdin, it says a lot that I didn't see that. That should have been carried more. I could have missed it but if an effort was made to get that news out...I would have seen it I think.

[Dear Wendy]

Clandestine, do you want to continue? You're not improving, or re-newing anything. All same old shit which everyone is used to see coming from you. As said, I have time.


Originally posted by Aladdin
One image I remember however was of Arafat donating blood for the 9/11 victims. In fact he was the only politician/head of state I remember donating blood.


Same man, who has been proved to help fund suicide bombers in Israel.

[Clandestine]

Interesting how noone else seems to share your opinion on much of anything princess.

But if it makes you feel intelligent to continue with snide remarks of little merit or credence go right ahead.

Do let us know when you have something substantive to respond with.

And of course, is it any surprise to once again read your condemnation for Arafat, a man whom Sharon himself has long outpaced in the war criminal dept.

Perhaps if the IDF and its Likhud paymasters could stop rocket bombing Palestinian neighbourhoods and bulldozing their homes and lives into rubble all with US paid military equipment, you wouldnt need to complain about Palestinians defending themselves with the only means left to them or those who support their families after the fact.

Perhaps spending a year living in one of the squalid walled in areas as they do might change your take on the situation.

[Dear Wendy]

Originally posted by Clandestine
Interesting how noone else seems to share your opinion on much of anything princess.

But if it makes you feel intelligent to continue with snide remarks of little merit or credence go right ahead.

Do let us know when you have something substantive to respond with.

And of course, is it any surprise to once again read your condemnation for Arafat, a man whom Sharon himself has long outpaced in the war criminal dept.

Perhaps if the IDF and its Likhud paymasters could stop rocket bombing Palestinian neighbourhoods and bulldozing their homes and lives into rubble all with US paid military equipment, you wouldnt need to complain about Palestinians defending themselves with the only means left to them or those who support their families after the fact.

Perhaps spending a year living in one of the squalid walled in areas as they do might change your take on the situation.

Maybe you should of all people practice what you preach, and go and visit. Get some perspective. I have seen Jerusalem, I have seen Jenin. Tel-Aviv and Golan. Met both the followers of Shas and of Meretz.

So how deep are you in it all? How far have you gone, to see what is actually happening and going on?

If you want to forget and ignore what Arafat has been part of, then welcome. Just don't expect me, to keep it hidden under the carpet.

Btw, Israel is behind the IDF, no need to single out the Likud.

[Clandestine]

Originally posted by Jacqueline the Ripper
Maybe you should of all people practice what you preach, and go and visit. Get some perspective. I have seen Jerusalem, I have seen Jenin. Tel-Aviv and Golan. Met both the followers of Shas and of Meretz.

So how deep are you in it all? How far have you gone, to see what is actually happening and going on?

If you want to forget and ignore what Arafat has been part of, then welcome. Just don't expect me, to keep it hidden under the carpet.

Btw, Israel is behind the IDF, no need to single out the Likud.

Yes, I accept that point wholeheartedly. Well put.

My interest is largely professional, as I have been party to briefings and discussions at the EU ministerial level with members of the Rabin, Barak, Netanyahu and Sharon govts, have assisted in the creation of numerous position papers both in preparation and follow up of such meetings and read many others in the course of my career so far. I do however have many Palestinian friends who have suffered terrible losses to family and property from indiscriminate shelling, sniping and bulldozing raids in the territories.

I have also seen considerable pictoral evidence from aid workers as well as documented reference material from embassy officials both in Israel and Jordan which has shaped my views on the continued disingenuity of the US brokered peace process. Far too many vested interests in the status quo to expect breakthroughs without significant adaptation to the Likhud position.

As to all of Israel being behind the IDF, I think you of all people should know that there are Israelis who do not agree with continued occupation, nor of the maintenance of settlements, nor of the continued construction of the wall. Likhud is very much behind all of these.

[GINGA]

Originally posted by pnjsurferpoet


There's lot's of reason for failures in the Middle East. For their own good, Arabs need to also look at themselves and their leaders to affix blame.

Clandestine, you are a sincere person but the EU can't take a high moral ground after laundering Saddam's money in both French and Luxemborg banks and after providing Castro with recently, $16.4 million in aid...which he has now rejected. The EU is either on the moral high ground...or it isn't. and you either have the same standards for it regarding both what you say is your country...the US and where you live...in a country that is a member of the EU...or you're not being morally consistent.

There's no reason to trust the EU in negotiations...unless the bigger the EU entities become, the better it is for where you live.

Okay so you are saying the EU can not be trusted because two seperate banks that are based in the EU laundered money for Saddam and then giving Castro money. First of all that is a bit senseless thinking that the EU can not be trusted for the activity of two seperate banks. Then if we are getting on to the point of trusting people. Hell you can't trust Bush his family got its money off laundering NAZI money.

[Dear Wendy]

Originally posted by Clandestine


As to all of Israel being behind the IDF, I think of all people should know that there are Israelis who do not agree with continued occupation, nor of the maintenance of settlements, nor of the continued construction of the wall. Likhud is very much behind all of these.

TzaHaL- Tza Hahagana LeIsrael, not Tzva Hahagana Lalikud.

As a whole Israel is the force behind the IDF, there'll always be people disagreeing. To therefore say that the IDF is a result of the Likud would be false.
I mean wasn't Barak the 15th Chief of General Staff? Wasn't Barak the head of Avoda?

The IDF consists of Avoda, Shinui, Merets, just as well as Likud followers. Has no relevance, they're there for one cause.

[Clandestine]

You misunderstood the point of my reference to Likhud entirely. I did not say that the composition of the army was entirely Likhudniks nor the result of Likhud as a party, I said that the army is following the dictates (i.e. the agenda of expansionist aggression) of their Likhud "paymasters" (i.e. the govt).

Curtail the Likhud agenda and its efforts to manipulate and derail the process through disingenuous negotiating, refusal to make substantive concessions on halting and dismantling all wrongful settlements (far more than the 15 you referred to previously) and withdraw the occupying forces from ALL Palestinian areas and the the actions of the IDF wouldnt be a factor any longer in the debate.

[Aladdin]

The bottom line Jacqs is that the government controls the IDF. It's up to the government to instruct the IDF to change their rules of engagement; to stop shooting at unarmed children, launching missiles at crowds from combat helicopters or firing shells into apartment blocks.

Unless of course the IDF is out of control and its generals are keeping such policies in spite of Sharon government's orders.

[Dear Wendy]

Aladdin, I don't know about you.
But I have been in a situation where people started to throw rocks. Soldiers were there, and I thank God for that. A stone is lethal. And frankly, had I a gun in my hand and my life depended on it, I wouldn't hesitate to use it cause people would think that it's barbaric and un-ethical.
Same goes for how they handle terrorists.

Can you enlighten me regarding the missiles launched against crowds?

Again, I'll say that I am not keen nor impressed over how the two of you casually ignore kidnapping and killings of Israelis, as if it never happened. When it is still, unfortunately, going strong.

[Clandestine]

The only casual ignoring going on Jacq is by the media concerning almost daily IDF attrocities in the occupied territories. The media does not hesitate to show events against Israeli citizens though.

And if you think that firing military assault rifles at rock throwing children is even remotely acceptable then youd better go back and redefine your definition of "terrorist".

[Dear Wendy]

That means, that should someone throw molotov cocktails, stones and fire gunshots at your direction, you would stand there and say "yalla, yalla, inshalla"?

[Aladdin]

I am one to condemn terrorist attacks or shooting of Israeli civilians and have done so many times. But I must say that although I regret and disagree with the killings I can see Clan's point, and sad as it is when a people is oppressed to the degree the Palestinians are, they will fight back by the only means available to them. I'm sure if they had an army to speak of and the means to organise it they would fight the IDF 'nice and clean'.

As for the rock throwing, it is the view of civilised nations that attacks must not be repelled by disproportionate force. Every nation on earth has suffered from riots and disturbances but you don't see British, American, Spanish, French, Danish or German policemen shooting to kill to repel rioters throwing rocks or petrol bombs at them.

I am yet to hear about an Israeli soldier killed by a rock thrown by a child. Shooting back is simply barbaric and can only be described as murder. It is shocking that a nation that portrays itself as a civilised democracy indulges in practices characteristic of fascist dictatorships and brutal regimes.

Here's a disturbing report on the killing of children by the IDF. (http://www.guardian.co.uk/g2/story/0,3604,1007051,00.html) I don't see much self-defense here.

As for firing missiles into crowds, well I don't know what news you have been watching because this happens with alarming regularity. Here's an example. (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/2307153.stm)

[Clandestine]

You might first consider why rocks are being thrown in the first place. Withdraw the IDF forces from their prolonged illegal occupation of Palestinian territories and there wouldnt be cause for such grievances by the kids.

Or do you think Israeli kids would do any different if the tables were reversed and Palestinian soldiers, funded by the US, were ever present in Tel Aviv neighbourhoods, bulldozing buildings down on top of people, raiding homes and shooting Israeli children indiscrimately?

The violence wont end until Sharon or whoever succeeds him finally adheres to the long ignored UN resolutions fully and withdraws the militant affrontary that simply gives perpetual cause for resistance and revenge.

Youre smart enough to see that I should hope.

[Dear Wendy]

Have a newer example? One which isn't almost a year old. Aladdin?

Clandestine, a famous Golda Meir Quote... 'There will be no peace in the Middle East until the Palestinians start loving their children more than they hate the Jews'.

Think about it, how will there be peace when a mother says she won't be happy until one of her son's a shahid? When they're sent to camps learning how to produce bombs, and how to set them off? When they see rejoicing in Israeli death?

You can say a lot, but due to my mom being a teacher I've seen Israeli learning books. And never have I witnessed stories about how to kill Arabs. Or how to conugate the word martyr.

[pnjsurferpoet]

Think about it, how will there be peace when a mother says she won't be happy until one of her son's a shahid?

Exactly. How could parents encourage the death of their children. And the Arab World in general, as well as Muslims who view every other Muslim as a brother, never take responsibility for the violence created by their own culture and their government's inability to take responsibility for the condition of their people. Again, Saudi Arabia chooses to invest over $700 million in the US annually and then until recently, gives to charities that support the violence in the Middle East. How about building some factories in Palestine and giving people jobs. If people had hope, they wouldn't give a flying **** about where some line is being drawn.

I am concerned with the walls being built and stories of Hamas building more missles. It makes me feel there's no hope for peace.

[Aladdin]

I wasn't aware that atrocities lose their value after 12 months Jacqs, as if they were a bag of frozen peas past their best-before date.

And yet some atrocities seem to have no expiration date. How curious.

I haven't found a link (yet) but a few months ago there was another such incident. In this case an Apache fired a missile at a crowd outside a mosque because two or three gunmen "might have been hiding amongst them". Needless to say 11 people or so lost their lives, and oops! Not a gunman in sight.

And if you care to look back a few years you will see that there are many other incidents where crowds have been shot at, be from a combat helicopter, from an armoured vehicle or from soldiers on foot patrol.
http://www.sky.com/skynews/article/0,,30200-12186214,00.html

And of course there is the time-honoured tradition of blowing up or bulldozing houses regardless of who might be inside.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/2817305.stm

Perhaps you think 1 or 2 such attacks a year is a trivial issue. I don't.

[pnjsurferpoet]

Was the mosque preaching jihad? If it was I'd call it a legitimate target. If you're going to make your houses of worship into headquarters for spreading hate and war initiatives...they are legitmate targets of any society trying to protect itself.

[Aladdin]

You can be so blinded it is breathtaking.

No, the mosque wasn't preaching any such things. Not that it would justify killing worshippers.

This was yet another case of the IDF shooting at a crowd, not even knowing if the gunmen they were looking for were there (they weren't) but happy to murder more than 10 people and see if one of the dead happen to be a gunman.

Why don't they just go ahead and use a small nuke on the refugee camps? Tens of thousands would be killed but they would sure get 40 or 50 militants. Don't you agree pnj?

[pnjsurferpoet]

No, the mosque wasn't preaching any such things

Then it was wrong to attack it.

[Clandestine]

Hatred comes from perpetrating violence upon others. In that regard the Israel govt provides its neighbours with more than enough cause for hatred with its continued claims that its killing of innocent civilians is purely justified for security reasons.

Well that argument goes both ways little man and those like you who support our own country's misguided agenda of war and bombardment are the ones inviting further violence against us in the future.

[Dear Wendy]

Clandestine, I'd suggest you took a look back to 1948. The welcoming Israel got by it's neighbours.
Go a bit back, and see how Egypt were ready to go into war, if someone would fund them.

You don't even know how many attempted attcks get stopped by the Israeli forces on a daily basis.
Not mentioned in the media, or in open circles in order not to scare the population.

[Clandestine]

Perhaps you should go back and review that same commencement in 1948 and discover with just how much violence people were forced out their homes and off land that had been in their families for hundreds of years in order to facilitate the creation of the state of Israel.

Then again, that was 1948, this is now. The eternal "we're so persecuted" or "everyone hates us" moan of the zionists has worn thin and is a pathetic excuse for doing much the same thing to the Palestinians that was suffered by Jews themselves 50 odd years ago.

It was attrocious in WWII and its no less attrocious now whether committed in part or in total by the Israeli government or any other government.

The recent history of disingenuous negotiating and railroaded peace settlements due to intractable expansionist agendas of successive Israeli governments is the issue, not the sordid history of the formation of the modern state of Israel.

[Dear Wendy]

Useless having any sort of discussion with you. Too fucking righteous to try to look beyond your own ass.

Funny that the people who stayed in their houses in 1948, became Israeli citizens.

Palestinians suffer how the Jews did? Jews were banned from going to the cinema, sports fields, cafés etc.
Fucking explain me how Palestinians are seen in malls, swimming pools, amusement parks etc. when going through the same treatments as the Jews did?
Now remember that Israelis do not dare to set a foot in Palestinian amusement facilities etc.

You should not dare to tell me that Israelis/Jews don't face abuse anymore. I'll prove you wrong before you'll have the time to write about nazi methods of the zionists, and about the peaceful Arafat.

I really would advice you to travel to the area you're so fond criticising, and get some reality into your pretentious self-loving head.

[Clandestine]

Righteous? I think not. You on the other hand consistently come across as overly zealous in self righteousness over the issue. So much so that you never have once admitted any wrongdoing on the part of the Israeli government. Its always Arafat, Hamas, other Palestinian resistance groups or Palestinians themselves who are to blame for everything.

I did not suggest that Jews do not suffer persecution, I contended rather that the cry that is raised everytime any criticism comes the way of the zionists is one of "anti-semitism" or "we're so persecuted", as if that gives carte balnche to avoid any responsibility for their actions or blanket immunity from any rebuke for misdeeds.

It just doesnt work like that Jacq.

And whether you choose to see it or willfully turn a blind eye, building a wall around entire territories and sealing people into virtual prisons of zero economic opportunity and then denying any movement is little more than the conditions suffered by the Jews in the Warsaw Ghetto. Add in the indiscriminate IDF sniping, rocket attacks, and housing demolitions and youve got to some extent the same treatment being perpetrated on them as was suffered by your forbears in WWII. In its totality no of course not, that would raise an immediate global outcry and isolate Israel from everyone.

Far easier to incrementally cut off and destroy the population though economic deprivation and random killings all dressed up in excuses about "security".

Perhaps when you demonstrate some capacity to hold your own government to account you can expect others to accommodate your perspective more often. Until then you appear to simply applaud the madness of right wing oppression a bit too much.

[Aladdin]

Originally posted by Jacqueline the Ripper
Useless having any sort of discussion with you. Too fucking righteous to try to look beyond your own ass.

I imagine I am one of the two you speak of.

In which case the above rant is irrelevant to me, for I have not spoken of past or present suffering by the Jewish people, and I do not care to make comparisons to see which people win the sympathy contest.

Funny how when you run out of arguments you throw rants like the above instead of facing the discussion at hand. You wanted links to supposed human rights abuses and the targeting of civilians? I've supplied plenty. But instead of facing up to the reality of the murderous ways of the Israeli government, here we go again derailing the issue.

You started the thread asking what we thought of the peace process chances. Well I have told you: as it stands it doesn't stand much of a chance. The Palestinians have got as rotten a deal as it could be; the Apartheid Wall continues to be built despite repeated pleas from every one including Sharon's bestiest friend G. W. Dubya. The settlements continue to exist and in many cases to expand. The refugees are still denied return. The stolen land, not only from the Palestinians but from the Lebanese and the Syrians continues to be in Israeli hands. And the IDF continues its regular and mostly unreported catalogue of abuses and unprovoked killings.

Perhaps the Palestinians have grown tired of 4 decades of brutal oppression and humiliation, and are prepared to accept whatever leftovers of a nation remain in their hands. But don't be surprised if the ceasefire ends soon and hostilities begin again. I could not blame anyone for rejecting this shambles of a peace agreement.

Of course there is another way. That everyone, from foreign heads of state to the people of Israel, demand Sharon and his government face up to their obligations and make some real concessions to ensure a fair deal for everyone and lasting peace. But it seems that most who can do something about it are happy to let him carry on his practices undisturbed, and to laugh in the face of international law, Human Rights conventions and UN resolutions.

[Dear Wendy]

Look at the investements in the Palestinians, and look at how the money goes to hell and to private pockets.

The Oslo agreemeant gave them some opportunities, which they decided to throw away, so they could go on with their fuckities.

[Clandestine]

Poor argumentation. Without proper infrastructure to begin with there isnt any foundation for effective investment in the first place. Couple that with the persistent agenda of demolitions pursued by the Israeli government and the IDF and what good is investment?

Notwithstanding this, the actual amounts provided to the Palestinians, given their virtual destitution to begin with, is barely enough to provide for the very basics of survival when viewed on a per capita basis and factoring in all the things the Israelis might take for granted such as educational facilities, hospitals, basic utilities (lets not even get into the question of access to water itself which has largely been diverted for Israeli settlers away from Palestinian towns around them) and other such staples of relatively comfortable and progressive living.

As for Oslo, youd best go back and recall that both with regard to Oslo and the Camp David 2000 accords, the Palestinians agreed with the provisions, however the Israeli side railroaded these agreements by continuing to add on greater and greater land concessions from the Palestinian side until they made the whole situation pointless. In this way just as they are doing again today, they push the process until it fails and then loudly proclaim on the media that the failure is the fault of the Palestinians.

You continue to refuse to see the truth just as your government does and thus in answer to the original question asked, this process will be no less a sham than any preceeding attempt.

[Dear Wendy]

Originally posted by Clandestine


You continue to refuse to see the truth just as your government does and thus in answer to the original question asked, this process will be no less a sham than any preceeding attempt.

The Danish government is thank God supportive of Israel :)

Funny, you mention hospital facilities. In my stay I got taken to hospital, and I do not lie when I tell that everyone of the patients except from two (me and another lady) were arabs.

Either way, this discussion is going nowhere. You asked me to visit the places in question. I have. I suggest you do the same.

[Clandestine]

Supportive and acquiescent are too vastly different things. In the long run those who truly support Israel would be better suited to force Sharon and co to fulfill their obligations and show integrity in hammering out a mutually beneficial solution that supports viable states for both peoples. That is not what current governments in support of Israel are doing however.

As to the hosptial you went to, I have little doubt that fine hospitals exist, but those would be in Israel not the Palestinian territories and thus not relevant to the funds which you referred to as being squandered by Palestinians.

For Arabs living as Israeli citizens all well and good, but that is not pivotal to resolution of the conflict for those who live in the occupied territories imprisoned by the attrocious wall and without credible economic opportunity.