CCTV - 1984 turning into reality.... [Archive]

budda

21-07-2003, 02:36 PM

Well the UK is the undisputed king of CCTV, the average Londoner is videoed something like 200 times a day.

The problem is that we live in such a culture of fear that people are preaty much asking for an oppressive government, and the US is the worst for that.

Did you know the only person to vote against the Patriot Bill, did so because he hadnt read it, there were only TWO copies doing the rounds, yet everyone voted for it because they didnt want to be unpatroitic.

The next patriot bill will make internment legal for US citizens as well as non-US nationals. And no-one will protest because apparently we 'need' it to protect ourselves.

PNJ; how can you say you are from the 'home of the free' when you are about to have internment?

morrocan roll

22-07-2003, 01:58 AM

Originally posted by pnjsurferpoet
to prevent the actions of big organized drug, crime and terrorist entities. That's the big question. well they have done buggar all in my lifetime! they have lost the war against organised crime and drugs ...that's obvious.
the legislation your country is bringing in and the guantanamo bay spectacle would suggest the terrorists are winning as well.
your fear factor is high ...the aim of terror ...and your rapidly erroding freedoms ...if any of it realy does have anything to do with terrorism ...shows that freedom is loosing and no one is loosing respect and freedom faster than the yanks.

dantheman

22-07-2003, 09:43 AM

Yeah let's remove CCTV and let criminals run riot. Not.
As long as nobody watches me in my own home then I don't see it as erroding my freedom, the authorities have a duty to protect it's citizens from low lifes in public area's and this is a good way of doing it.

The Matadore

22-07-2003, 10:06 AM

Londoners of the site who are videoed 200 times a day , do you feel oppressed?

Do you feel scared and terrified when you walk past a camera on a busy street in London?

budda

22-07-2003, 01:10 PM

Interesting question, you get used to it, and I think thats scarier than anything.

Its not so much the camaras its what is done with the result, with the new software coming of age it wont be long before the camara can adentify your face and follow you where ever you go, its this type of profiling that I find invasive. Its a short step between 'suspected' criminals and 'trouble makers', and then after that we're all fucked.

Remember once they take a freedom away from you its NOT coming back, all these measures are here to stay, dont kid yourself that they are short-term thing.

Draw your line in the sand and decide before its crossed how you will react.

dantheman

22-07-2003, 01:39 PM

I'm against the country becoming too big brother like when it comes to a DNA database and ID Cards, but CCTV is necessary in places in London where it's busy and their is trouble, like in Leicester Square. Also if you're from south London you'd appreciate the deterrent if you see the type of scum that walks our streets.

Aladdin

22-07-2003, 01:49 PM

Doesn't seem much of a deterrent in Brixton I must say.

Creeper

22-07-2003, 02:22 PM

I like staging fights in the street so that the CCTV focusess on me and my friend, then running around so it follows us. Especially around the lamp-post on which it's mounted. A good lotta fun.

Anyway, to answer your question Monocrat. Why should you be bothered about CCTV if you're not going to break the law? It's there to keep us safe.

morrocan roll

22-07-2003, 08:47 PM

i now have cctv around my property! well, one camera, which isn't usualy switched on but there you go.
it is a necessary evil that so far we have learned to live with but as bong says ...where is it moving to next with profiling and stuff?
you are right about lost freedoms never being regained as well bong ...i keep trying to warn the yanks about it!
what realy gets on my tits is the fact that millions of people are rushing out to by picture phones. self survielance!
'i left the pub half an hour ago dear'.
"show me".
you'll be able to download street scenes to prove your not where you realy are i suppose.
picture phone? ...no thankyou.

The Matadore

22-07-2003, 09:54 PM

Yes , as I have said before , only criminals or potential criminals have anything to fear from public CCTV surveillance.

BumbleBee

22-07-2003, 10:05 PM

I have nothing to hide.

CCTV stops a lot of potential crime, which is better than having a crime committed and wasting taxpayers money on prosecuting those who could have been deterred had CCTV been in place.

It also helps prosecute those who are stupid enough to committ crime where there are CCTV cameras. Criminals are caught via CCTV everyday.

They have CCTV in shops, that has nothing to do with the govt. and they are able to detect shoplifters stealing. In the street CCTV can be used to capture car thiefs.

I have nothing to hide, so I don't give a damn about CCTV.

Monocrap - what with all these infringements of your rights you must be packing your bags between postings.... ready to head off into the land of the free.....

monocrat

22-07-2003, 11:00 PM

Originally posted by The Matadore
Yes , as I have said before , only criminals or potential criminals have anything to fear from public CCTV surveillance.

So let the police film criminals and not innocent people who have committed no crime.

morrocan roll

22-07-2003, 11:31 PM

must be getting tough for your average honest shoplifter these days.

Shogun

23-07-2003, 12:40 AM

Cctv is a good thing, it is there to stop criminals and to prevent crime, not to watch a normal average day person walking down the street, if you have nothing to hide then why worry about a cctv, i dont worry if i see them...nothing to hide.

morrocan roll

23-07-2003, 02:01 AM

and how will you feel if one day you do have something to hide?

budda

23-07-2003, 10:58 AM

Rubbish you have nothing to hide, thats total rubbish.

How about I follow you through all of your actions 24hours a day videoing everything, in and out of your house, go through your rubbish, track your every movement, pull up profiles on all your freinds and everyone you have dealings with?

Its not the point of whether you are a criminal or not, people have the right to some privicy, the right to live your life without interfearance.

BumbleBee

23-07-2003, 11:44 AM

Originally posted by bongbudda
Rubbish you have nothing to hide, thats total rubbish.

How about I follow you through all of your actions 24hours a day videoing everything, in and out of your house, go through your rubbish, track your every movement, pull up profiles on all your freinds and everyone you have dealings with?

Strangely enough, this doesn't happen to ordinary folk who have not had dealings with the police or who are not suspected high profile criminals. You and I, well we're filmed occassionally.

If you don't like being filmed I take it you don't go to shops then? Most shops have CCTV, and many larger stores have store detectives who will follow you around.

I think you're going a bit OTT saying we are filmed 24 hours a day. Perhaps you are saying that is how you feel CCTV is becoming? Well move away. Don't live here then. I for one am in favour of CCTV and would welcome more of it in areas with high crime rates.

You make no comment whatsoever on the fact that CCTV is used to deter a lot of crime. Take an incident a few weeks ago when a man was caught on CCTV trying to abduct a girl. It was caught on CCTV and the Police were sent. That girl was neither raped or aducted thanks to CCTV. Monocrat, would you advocate that CCTV be removed? In that instance a girl was being attacked and perhaps abducted. She could have been dead now. This is just one instance of where CCTV works.

budda

23-07-2003, 11:50 AM

I was going over the top to prove a point, I just hate the arguement that 'if your doing nothing wrong then you've got nothing to hide'.

I aggree with you though, CCTV is in many shops and in public areas and in theory I dont have a problem with that, as such, my concern is with whats done with the data, what controls are put on its use.

BumbleBee

23-07-2003, 11:57 AM

Originally posted by bongbudda

I aggree with you though, CCTV is in many shops and in public areas and in theory I dont have a problem with that, as such, my concern is with whats done with the data, what controls are put on its use.
The problem with data is we are tracked by so many other souces anyway - everytime you use a credit or debit card there are multiple records of it - on your starement, with your bank, with the shop. Firms know who you are and how you spend. And spending is power, it defines who people are. Every time you use your mobile phone, the number you call and the duration is logged in your phone, and on your bill, and with the phone company. Same goes for when you use your landline phone.

Personally, I think people should be more scared of the information that ruthless corporations have on us. Many large firms have files on customers - the ones who spend the most (how can they be lured to spend more? ), the ones who don't have any money (how can we make sure we don't sell to them?).

Shogun

23-07-2003, 12:33 PM

If i did have something to hide of course i wouldn't like it, but if you are only walking along the shops and there are cameras i dont care about that really.
bongbudda, if that happened following you 24 hours a day with and videoing, that would be a complete invasion of your privacy and dont support that at all, yes they do have the right to live without interfearance, what would you do if they started putting cctv near your home with your house on the film what would you say about that?

budda

23-07-2003, 12:40 PM

We do have the Data Protection Act you know which limits what data can be used by companies about people, how long it can be stored etc.

I dont want to always have to protect 'big business' because I have reservations about the system we have too, BUT companies work within the rules that are set and enforced for them, who makes the law? If you want business to behave in a different way then complain about the government.

The business of business is business.

Shogun; As for CCTV near my house, I would ask why it was needed and attempt to gain justification for their position. If there wasnt then I would complain and campain against it.

Creeper

24-07-2003, 01:40 AM

Originally posted by monocrat
So let the police film criminals and not innocent people who have committed no crime.

So camera's should have a criminal radar or something? How can they film criminals if they aren't constantly on?

Shogun

24-07-2003, 01:51 AM

So let the police film criminals and not innocent people who have committed no crime.

that is a very stupid thing to say...how can they just monitor criminals and not normal people as well...oh oh look there's a criminal, turn the camera on, catch him :rolleyes:

Man Of Kent

24-07-2003, 09:07 AM

You know that it breaches your Human Rights to be filmed without your permission, don't you? At least you do if it is used at anytime.

You actually have the right to see any footage in which you appear... whether used or not.

Try asking for the police to show you though...

budda

24-07-2003, 11:21 AM

Yep, its covered in the Data Protection Act, try getting any company to give you the film though and I'd be surprised if they were helpful.

BumbleBee

24-07-2003, 11:32 AM

Originally posted by Man Of Kent
You know that it breaches your Human Rights to be filmed without your permission, don't you? At least you do if it is used at anytime.

You actually have the right to see any footage in which you appear... whether used or not.

Try asking for the police to show you though...
I don't care if it breaches my human rights. It isn't something that harms me in any way, shape or form.

Man Of Kent

24-07-2003, 11:50 AM

Originally posted by BumbleBee
I don't care if it breaches my human rights.

The Govt love people who say things like that. Easy prey.

How many other rights don't you care about? Losing the right to freedom of speech won't *harm* you, but I doubt you'd give it up so easily.

This is about the right to walk freely without being under the constant scrutiny of the Govt. It makes no difference whether you have anything to hide or not, by monitoring everything you do [within the scope of the cameras] they Govt is effectively suggesting that you are guilty of something, they just haven't found out what yet...

If they have no reason to suspect *you* then why do they need to watch you?

BumbleBee

24-07-2003, 11:56 AM

Originally posted by Man Of Kent
The Govt love people who say things like that. Easy prey.

How many other rights don't you care about? Losing the right to freedom of speech won't *harm* you, but I doubt you'd give it up so easily.

This is about the right to walk freely without being under the constant scrutiny of the Govt. It makes no difference whether you have anything to hide or not, by monitoring everything you do [within the scope of the cameras] they Govt is effectively suggesting that you are guilty of something, they just haven't found out what yet...

If they have no reason to suspect *you* then why do they need to watch you?
They aren't watching me. There is some guy sitting monitoring the cameras looking for thieves and the like, if he sees me, the most he might do is comment on my fat arse! Comparing the freedom to walk around and not be filmed with the right to freedom of speech is not the same thing. I am happy with the level of CCTV and in all honesty if it were to catch more criminals and help more prosecutions then I would like more of it. Just because you don't feel the same doesn't mean to say I am going to change my opinion on the matter. I don't feel like I am being "watched" - it doesn't make me uneasy.

budda

24-07-2003, 12:03 PM

What concerns me is the slippery slope, we rationalise that the errotion of some freedoms in 'these times' is needed, then we loose another and so on.

BumbleBee

24-07-2003, 12:14 PM

Originally posted by bongbudda
What concerns me is the slippery slope, we rationalise that the errotion of some freedoms in 'these times' is needed, then we loose another and so on.
What others?

Man Of Kent

24-07-2003, 12:16 PM

Originally posted by BumbleBee
They aren't watching me.

Er... yes they are. They are watching everyone. The camera doesn't blank you out just because you aren't a convicted criminal. They don't read intent.

The person wtching that camera (or reviewing the film) is looking at us all.

Comparing the freedom to walk around and not be filmed with the right to freedom of speech is not the same thing.

Yes it is. They are both fundamental to freedom.

Are you happy that all your e-mails are likely to be monitored? Do you know if your ISP has an agreement with the Govt?

all honesty if it were to catch more criminals and help more prosecutions then I would like more of it

And there is the slippery slope.

How many other "irghts" would you happily trade for the illusion of security?

CCTV doesn't prevent crime. CCTV prevents crime in the areas where there are cameras.

Just because you don't feel the same doesn't mean to say I am going to change my opinion on the matter. I don't feel like I am being "watched" - it doesn't make me uneasy.

I don't expect your opinion to change. But you do need to ask yourself a question.

In the "Do you trust" thread, most people said no, we don't trust Govts. So, why trust them on this?

Whether you feel like you feel like you are being watched isn;t the issue. That you are being watched, is.

[edited to add]

Originally posted by BumbleBee
What others?

The right not to be imprisoned without charge, trial, details of the allegations against you...

Blunkett's Law in response to WTC

BumbleBee

24-07-2003, 12:35 PM

Originally posted by Man Of Kent

1. Er... yes they are. They are watching everyone. The camera doesn't blank you out just because you aren't a convicted criminal. They don't read intent.

2. How many other "irghts" would you happily trade for the illusion of security?

3. CCTV doesn't prevent crime. CCTV prevents crime in the areas where there are cameras.

4. In the "Do you trust" thread, most people said no, we don't trust Govts. So, why trust them on this?

1. They are watching me yes, what I mean is they are only interested in seeing if I am committing a crime which I have never done, so I don't care. I am happy for someone to watch me, there are 100s of other people in crowded city centre streets for then to watch too. If they are spending all their energy focusing on me then I am quite flattered actually.

2. I don't believe CCTV to be an illusion. I direct you back to the earlier example I used about the young girl who was in the process of being attack and/or abducted - CCTV prevented that crime. If CCTV had not been there this would be a far different tale. CCTV is used to prosecute criminals and even track them down. Pictures released from the police showing people wanted in connection with crimes come from CCTV footage oh so often.

3. Exactly, which is why I advocate that there should be more CCTV cameras in crime blackspots. I would rather give up my freedom to not be filmed than have my car vandalised or stolen.

4. I don't quite understand what you mean. Trust them on what? Trust them that they aren't filming me for other, more sinister reasons?

Man Of Kent

24-07-2003, 12:47 PM

Originally posted by BumbleBee
1. They are watching me yes, what I mean is they are only interested in seeing if I am committing a crime which I have never done, so I don't care.

Never?

Not even litter dropping?

:eek:

That they watch you means that you are under suspicion. As you say, they have no reason to suspect you of anything. So why should they watch you.

The vast majority of the public are [within reason] law abiding, so why must we all be watched?

2. I don't believe CCTV to be an illusion.

So why is crime on the increase?

Unless you are going to put CCTV on every building (including residentials) then crime will simply move somewhere else.

The next rapist, won't do it in an area covered by CCTV... so then what. How far do you want to take CCTV?

4. I don't quite understand what you mean. Trust them on what? Trust them that they aren't filming me for other, more sinister reasons?

You are told that CCTV is there to prevent crime, yet crime is rising...

There are people in this country who the Govt would like to keep an eye on. The Security Service has files on people they consider "subversive" and these people are monitored. You have no way of finding out if you are on this list. Worth noting that Jack Straw is someone who our intelligence services used to watch... but there are others...

BumbleBee

24-07-2003, 12:53 PM

Originally posted by Man Of Kent

Not even litter dropping?

There are people in this country who the Govt would like to keep an eye on. The Security Service has files on people they consider "subversive" and these people are monitored. You have no way of finding out if you are on this list.
No, not even litter dropping. You obviously don't know me very well if you would even suggest that....

I can pretty much say with 99% accuracy that I am the most uninteresting person in the world, and I pity anyone who is forced to watch me.