EU's attack on the UK & US.

[pnjsurferpoet]

In the meeting yesterday, the EU sought to position itself as the savior of the Iraqi people and position the war as just this destructive act.

I'm so glad Bush is playing their game. He came back with a call for the UN to end the sanctions against the Iraqi people. Damn straight.

[cokephreak]

Again you seem to have posted an item with no question, and no personal opinion you want us to discuss or debate.

What are we meant to say?

[Clandestine]

Perhaps that the demonstrable extent to pnj's intellectual capacities are clearly as a regurgitator of US right wing spin.

[pnjsurferpoet]

Well, cp, if you believe they meant something different you could express that view. Or we could discuss how the influence of Belguim, France and Germany will be less within the EU as it expands. That's just a few ideas for discussion.

[cokephreak]

<b>
Well, cp, if you believe they meant something different you could express that view.
</B>

If who meant something different by what?

All we know (from your first post) is that some-one or some-thing representing the EU tried to position itself as the saviour of iraq.
You did not say what the meeting was, who said it or what they said. You only told us your opinion of it, meaning we are unable to discuss it.

The future of france Belguim, France and Germany is a suitable discussion, but has nothing to do with the original post.

Incedentally, even your comment...
Or we could discuss how the influence of Belguim, France and Germany will be less within the EU as it expands. That's just a few ideas for discussion.

...isn't really suitable as a discussion point as the question is far too leading.

Discussion questions should be neutral, according to the ettiquette of formal debate.

[Clandestine]

Indeed cokephreak. Especially given that pnj has absolutely no academic nor professional credentials to make such bold assertions about the inner relations of the EU member governments and who's influence stands where.

He's just regurgitating the mindless spin he loves to gorge himself on. His capacity to distinguish truth from presumption in these matters is nil.

[pnjsurferpoet]

My anger is that France and company want to be seen as the heros...and put the UK and US in the light of merely being countries that go to war. We went into Iraq for regieme change...we're giving them the freedom to create the kind of country the wish...a democracy.

[cokephreak]

Personally I think they are heros for stamping their feet and saying "NO" to bush'n'Blair. That must have taken a lot of courage, strenght and political sureness.


Indeed cokephreak. Especially given that pnj has absolutely no academic nor professional credentials to make such bold assertions about the inner relations of the EU member governments and who's influence stands where.

Yeah, but neither do I. I still think I'm allowed an opinion, and try telling me I'm not (If you want a very longwinded and eventually pointless argement)

[Clandestine]

Opinions are wonderful things. Sadly what pnj posits is stated in terms of facts that he has no legitimate apprehension of and which are blatantly false.

[pnjsurferpoet]

Personally I think they are heros for stamping their feet and saying "NO" to bush'n'Blair.

Saddam would agree.:naughty:

[cokephreak]

Saddam would agree.


I think you'll find that the majority of people would agree.
If only we lived in a democracy then bush'n'blair wouldn't have been able to start the war.

Unfortunatly, as ever when a single entity gets too much power, a democracy is not in effect, so we all have to bow down to the bully.

[pnjsurferpoet]

People in the UK are behind the war effort now...65%. It's 87% in the US.

You realize that compliance with the UN would not have removed Saddam from his position...so Iraqis would have kept on being tortured.

[Clandestine]

Prove those figures pnj. And be sure to note what particular poll question elicited such %s if they are indeed credible.

I suspect youll find it isnt "the war" nor Bush's unilateral dismissal of the UN decision processes that people were responding to.

The US figures wouldnt suprise me in the slightest but the UK figures sound like a load of bollocks.

[morrocan roll]

Originally posted by pnjsurferpoet
We went into Iraq for regieme change...we're giving them the freedom to create the kind of country the wish...a democracy. a few months ago we were going into iraq to remove weapons of mass destrution ...mmm. how do you bomb people into democracy? please tell me. you still believe that iraq is now going to become a democratic country! the people free to vote in and of power who they like. the majority will not want what america wants. what do we do then ...bomb them into wanting a mcdonalds on every corner?

[Clandestine]

Reports have already been emerging on late night BBC World programmes about the closed door sessions being held between the puppets Washington wants running the show and the US military reps on the ground. Meanwhile the local populations are conspicuously absent from those meetings as they are being held in cordoned off compounds under heavy US military guard.

Commentators have been revealing the growing distruct of US intentions by Shiite communities even as the old intra-tribal fault lines emerge amongst themselves.

A group of concerned Iraqis were show questioning US servicemen as to why it is that all ministries in Baghdad were blown to bits except the Oil Ministry which is now being occupied and used as an HQ for the US military. The hidden agendas are now becoming clear even to the Iraqis.

It appears they arent as blind and unquestioning as the US public is.

"Welcome to the occupation, for "democracy" please apply to Washington in triplicate. Please allow an indefinite period for reply..." :rolleyes:

[Clandestine]

Here is the latest UK opinion poll. Whilst it shows an increase in support for the war, that support remains in the minority of public opinion...

http://politics.guardian.co.uk/polls/story/0,11030,916494,00.html

[DB56K]

That survey is know almost a month old and I noticed you chose an antiwar paper :)
Support for war the war did jump upto and around the figures spouted by pnj and I read The Gaurdian, The Independant, The Times, The Telegraph, The Sun/News of the world (On Sundays) and the Scarborough Evening news :P and most of these carried some some sort of article on it.

[Kermit]

Originally posted by DB56K
That survey is know almost a month old and I noticed you chose an antiwar paper :)
Support for war the war did jump upto and around the figures spouted by pnj and I read The Gaurdian, The Independant, The Times, The Telegraph, The Sun/News of the world (On Sundays) and the Scarborough Evening news :P and most of these carried some some sort of article on it.

Clandestine is merely illustrating that polls are flawed as to who you ask. Ask Sun readers and theyll tell you the war is wonderful, ask guardian readers and its evil. Until you ask every single person then a poll is flawed- never forget the typical control group is around 1000 pollants.

[Clandestine]

DB, I did searches to try to verify pnj's claims but that was the only article I found that was even close to today's date. Every other google result were from reports months or a year out of date.

So if such confirmation exists, I ask again for the proof. An online poll is not considered official in any way.

[DB56K]

Click here for The Gaurdian (http://politics.guardian.co.uk/polls/story/0,11030,937043,00.html)

Older Poll (http://www.guardian.co.uk/Iraq/Story/0,2763,921381,00.html)

[Clandestine]

Thanks for that. Yes that is rather surprising. I suspect that we'll see further shifting of opinion on the broader range of issues as the aftermath plays itself out.

My opinion has not changed however.

[DB56K]

Where so far off the point that I can't remeber what your opinion was although I'm sure its correct :P and if PNJ started this topic I probably agree with you.

[Clandestine]

ROFLMAO!

[Heydrich]

Tweedledum or Tweedledee! Who should I vote for this time? Democracy! LOL

[Man Of Kent]

Originally posted by Heydrich
Tweedledum or Tweedledee! Who should I vote for this time? Democracy! LOL

Yes, best we should just do away with elections once and for all. best wait until a neo-nazi party is elected first though. At least that way we can start working on a thousand year reich.

Perhaps GROFAZ will be resurrected.

[pnjsurferpoet]

Democracy! LOL

Glad you said that Heydick...I mean Heydrich. I've never come across someone who's into totalitarism. Are you sure you're not posting from an old age home? You just don't sound like you're from any generation I've come across. Do you know that even in Vietnam...they call themselves socialists...not communists anymore. And in the big cities, people have opinions and know what's going on in the world?

[Clandestine]

I've never come across someone who's into totalitarism

And yet in your own inconsistent and politically ignorant fashion, you yourself have advocated just such a role for our own country in at least one of your posts today.

Go educate yourself boy before you make a further spectacle of yourself and embarrass our nation's already beleaguered image further.