A friendly reminder to Germany.

[pnjsurferpoet]

Germans were highly insulted when the taking down of Saddam's statue was compared to the taking down of the Berlin wall.

"No blood was spilled taking down the Berlin wall."

No blood by stand-for-nothing Germans. I guess the fight against communism isn't taught in the German school system...nor the Berlin airlift that kept Berliners from being starved or taken over by the Soviet Union. Nor all of the Cold War that succeeded in breaking the back of communism.

[kevlar85]

Originally posted by pnjsurferpoet
Germans were highly insulted when the taking down of Saddam's statue was compared to the taking down of the Berlin wall.

"No blood was spilled taking down the Berlin wall."

No blood by stand-for-nothing Germans. I guess the fight against communism isn't taught in the German school system...nor the Berlin airlift that kept Berliners from being starved or taken over by the Soviet Union. Nor all of the Cold War that succeeded in breaking the back of communism.

There was no blood spilt breaking Communism in East Germany - the Berlin Airlift was not attacked by the Soviet forces in East Germany which they could easily have done. The Berlin Wall came down in 1989 after a peaceful uprising by East Germans, the man in charge of the East German border controls suffered from an internal dilemma about whether to open fire on the masses trying to cross into West Berlin, he didn't and no blood was lost. The whole reason the Cold War is so-called because there was no actual direct fighting between the East and West. Yes there were "proxy" wars in Korea and Vietnam but these only altered the short-term balance of power. In the end, Communism was brought down economically, the USSR couldn't keep up with the USA and collapsed trying to - that's why Gorbachev opened the Soviet economy and increased freedoms in the late 1980s because he could see the writing on the wall and wanted to keep the Soviet Union together in some shape or form.

So no blood was actually spilt defeating Communism in Germany. It's very insulting to say the Germans stand for nothing - even you PNJ have to admit they stand for something if only because they didn't stand with the US over Iraq. The Germans are an educated, civilised race who stand for things like social justice and a peaceful existance.

[Clandestine]

The German education puts your own education to shame boy. You'd not last two minutes head to head in an intellectual contest with most German school kids your age.

Heck they undoubtedly know more about our own US history on top of other subject areas than you.

[pnjsurferpoet]

The Germans are an educated, civilised race who stand for things like social justice and a peaceful existance.

Lot's of lives were lost during the cold war. America's commitment freed Germany...twice. Don't try to twist history on an American. Today, they break UN sanctions regarding chemicals to Iraq and then cloak it in a peace march.

[cokephreak]

I can see very few similaritys between tearing down the Berlin wall and the taking down of the statue of Saddam. Very few indeed...

Whats more I know which I'd rather be a part of...

Whats more (again), if I played any part in taking down the berlin wall I too would be insulted by it being likened to the tearing down of the statue of Saddam.
Tearing down the wall needed to be done.
Tearing down the statue sold newspapers.

They managed it without bloodshed (more of less), on their own, so their liberated country belonged to them and they had pride in it. Thats the difference between the two

I also agree you need to look at your history a little better, and look at the differences between the German education system and your own.
I think i'd rather have had my education in germany than over here.

[cokephreak]

America's commitment freed Germany...twice.



??? This really needs some explanation. I'm not sure what events you are refering to.

OK, there was the food drops in the late fifties / early sixties (or some time around then), but other than that....

I have a horrible feeling one of those freedom giving exercises is when the US helped stop germany ruling the world. How this would count as freeing them i'm not too sure.

[pnjsurferpoet]

Tearing down the statue sold newspapers.

CP you're a good person. Key into any search engine: "Saddam" "torture" Just take a moment to read what comes up.

[kevlar85]

Originally posted by pnjsurferpoet
Lot's of lives were lost during the cold war. America's commitment freed Germany...twice. Don't try to twist history on an American. Today, they break UN sanctions regarding chemicals to Iraq and then cloak it in a peace march.

America helped to free Germany in World Wars One and Two (in WWI because Germany sank the Luisitania and promised most of the American South to Mexico if they invaded; in WWII because the Japanese bombed Pearl Harbour and Germany was allied to the Japanese.) The Cold War was an entirely different event.

I'm sorry for telling you the truth PNJ - but America is not always the great heroic and noble race you want to think it is, it is the same as all nations, it has a chequered past. If you watched less Hollywood movies glamourising the Americans as heroes every time and read some history books you'd find out the truth.

Sanctions were a futile, vindictive and counter-productive measure put on the Iraqis after the Gulf War by Britain and America. They achieved little except to drive the Iraqi people further into poverty.

Perhaps you ought to remember why the Germans are so squeamish about war - they had their country obliterated after WWII and have been invaded and conquered on their own land twice in the last hundred years. They've seen the consequences of war first hand which you and I have not, the least you do is treat their views with respect and not treat war like some big computer game - real people suffer during war.

[pnjsurferpoet]

America helped to free Germany in World Wars One

Didn't go back that far. We were talking about the Berlin war and the reasons it came down. Fairly tales about East German heros neglect to mention the fact that Western values, morality and opportunities destroyed Communism.

And don't worry, no one on the Internet shakes my view of my country.

[kevlar85]

Originally posted by pnjsurferpoet
Didn't go back that far. We were talking about the Berlin war and the reasons it came down. Fairly tales about East German heros neglect to mention the fact that Western values, morality and opportunities destroyed Communism.

And don't worry, no one on the Internet shakes my view of my country.

Then will you prove your examples of America liberating the Germans during the Cold War twice? No-one else seems to know what you're on about, I assumed you were talking about the two world wars. Yes western values, morality and opportunities - it wasn't America on its own, it was also Britain, France and most importantly West Germany that encouraged the liberation of East Germany and the subsequent re-unification. Besides the simple fact is western economics destroyed Communism because they couldn't keep up with the arms race.

No-one can shake your view because you block out all opinions and facts that you don't like which is not a good way to honour your country. Don't you think it's better to know the full story about your country and then reach your own conclusions and not just tune out the bad bits?

[JonBoi]

The Germans don't stand for nothing as you put it PNJ. The country has learned its lesson from the horrific wars early this century.

You meet a German today, I am sure you will find they are more than well versed on the history of their country and the collective guilt that the nation carries as a whole, indeed, will carry as a whole for a number of generations to come. There are reminders of the horrors of war almost every week, whether it be in newspapers or magazines. Similarly the German press has discussed at length the communist era in the new eastern states of Germany and I'm pretty damn sure that the entire cold-war period up until the fall of the wall is included in the school curriculum. Its all part of the two Germanys - East and West understanding each other better, so would disagree with your point about the "fight against communism" not being taught in German schools.

I think the Germans have more than demonstrated their remorse over events which for the most part were carried out by a different generation entirely.

For this reason, I completely understand the Germans anti-war stance. At the end of the day, UK and US did the job they were meant to do, they were always going to do it anyway, so what point is there belittling Germany for its anti-war stance??

As for the Germans problem with the fall of the wall being compared to the fall of the saddam statue - well can't you see their point?

The fall of the wall came literally from the people of Germany. The Eastern part of Germany (the communist side) was falling apart, they couldnt keep up the economic charade any longer and Gorbachov (sp??) had signalled he was no-longer going to prop up the ailing state. The people of Germany rose up and peacefully brought about the fall of the wall.

Iraq on the other hand was nothing like that. Surely you can see that. The fall of the statue was born directly out of armed conflict.

Its almost a ridiculous a statement as saying the birth of Catherine Zeta Jones new child is exactly the same as the birth of christ... you know what I mean. Two similar events, i.e a birth, the fall of a regime but totally different circumstances....

and what on earth was the statement about "fairy tales about East German heros" - are you aware of the situation in Germany at all. One thing I am certain of, you do not see any fairy tales praising east german heros, for goodness sake the German Democratic Republic has been dead for almost 13 years now....

Not wanting to sound mean, but please don't make such glaring historical mistakes. It doesnt help your cause...

[cokephreak]

CP you're a good person. Key into any search engine: "Saddam" "torture" Just take a moment to read what comes up.


How did tearing down the statue help to end this? This I do not see.

I can see directly how bringing down the Berlin wall would help free the people behind it, though.

[cokephreak]

Fairly tales about East German heros neglect to mention the fact that Western values, morality and opportunities destroyed Communism.


Western values and oppertunities that entered the country because its what the people wanted them, not because america wanted to put those values there (although they prolly did).


So we're here still looking for 2 times america has freed germany (although 1 could be WW1 -> This is under debate)

[Darth Fred]

Originally posted by cokephreak

So we're here still looking for 2 times america has freed germany (although 1 could be WW1 -> This is under debate)

I don't think WW1 could be said to have freed Germany. I don't think they were living under any more repressive a regime then any Western European country at that point. And rebuilding their country after the war coupled with the reparations mandated by the Versaille treaty damn near destroyed their economy, so how did it free them?

[Heydrich]

Lot's of lives were lost during the cold war. America's commitment freed Germany...twice. Don't try to twist history on an American. Today, they break UN sanctions regarding chemicals to Iraq and then cloak it in a peace march.

So let me get this straight. America "freed" Germany by ending the national existence of Germany twice, by putting millions of Germans under the rule of alien governments? If Germany attacked America and put Texas under the rule of Mexico, New England under the rule of Canada, and Florida under the rule of Cuba would you consider that a liberation?

[cokephreak]

So let me get this straight. America "freed" Germany by ending the national existence of Germany twice, by putting millions of Germans under the rule of alien governments?


That was my thoughts... But apparently his examples are from the cold war. I'm still waiting for him to cite is examples (hopefully they stand up a little better than his statistics)

[Heydrich]

Lets not forget how America "liberated" the people of Viet Nam.

Assistant Secretary of Defence John McNaughton in early 1966, seeing that large scale bombing of North Vietnam villages was not producing the desired result, suggested a different strategy. The air strikes on villages, he said, would "create a counterproductive wave of revulsion abroad and at home." He suggested instead:

Destruction of locks and dams, however - if handled right - might. . . offer promise. It should be studied. Such destruction doesn't kill or drown people. By shallow-flooding the rice, it leads after a time to widespread starvation (more than a million?) unless food is provided - which we could offer to do "at the conference table."

-- Howard Zinn, People's History of the United States, 481

Now how can this be? Only a diabolical evil madman like Hitler would do such a thing. Illinois. That's an Indian name. Whatever happened to those blokes?

[JonBoi]

America did not end the national existence of Germany. Alongside the rest of the allies, they helped liberate Germany from the evils of Nazi regime and re-kindle some of the democratic institutions from the weimar republic (I'm not saying that it was a model republic, but at least it was democratic for the most part up until 1933)

The Grundgesetz of 1949 has managed to serve the Federal Republic very well until now, thank you very much.

I am not saying the re-drawing of the German national frontiers after world war II was just, but then, there were serious injustices carried out by the Germans during the Nazi time....

Anyway, it was the Russians who insisted that the Oder/Neisse line be pushed back further west - the americans had always intended more of what is now Western Poland to return to Germany. It didn't and a lot of the German Volk in the east had to come west. Not desirable but at the same time, it could have been worse... someone could have tried and round them up into carriages and take them to extermination camps, just like the Nazi's did with many Jews, Gypsies, Homosexuals, and Mentally retarded persons, to name but a few...

[Heydrich]

America did not end the national existence of Germany.

America, along with the Western Allies, and the Soviet Union, partitioned Germany along with the rest of the European continent itself and much of the rest of the world. America then cooperated with the Soviet Union in ethnically cleansing millions of Germans in the East. Ever hear of the Morgenthau Plan?

Alongside the rest of the allies, they helped liberate Germany from the evils of Nazi regime

America was allied with the Soviet Union who raped so many women in Berlin over a million babies were fathered. Funny, whatever happened to those “war crimes” trials? America then incarcerated millions of German POWs in concentration camps and deliberately exterminated hundreds of thousands of them.

and re-kindle some of the democratic institutions from the weimar republic (I'm not saying that it was a model republic, but at least it was democratic for the most part up until 1933)

I assume you are referring to the ridiculous failure which was largely abolished before Hitler came to power anyway, with overwhelming popular support at that.

The Grundgesetz of 1949 has managed to serve the Federal Republic very well until now, thank you very much.

The Grundgesetz was approved by the military government of the west zone and not through a plebiscite of the German people. According to the Geneva conventions the military occupation government has to respect the laws sovereign states. The allies against international law arrested the legal government in Flensburg. All judges of the constitutional court were arrested - most of them murdered by the Soviets.

I am not saying the re-drawing of the German national frontiers after world war II was just

Why of course it was, noble America and Great Britain are liberty powers and the forces of Germany represented the darkness of evil! Hallelujah!

but then, there were serious injustices carried out by the Germans during the Nazi time....

Define injustice. Explain to me what constitutes such an injustice and what would be an appropriate remedy.

Anyway, it was the Russians who insisted that the Oder/Neisse line be pushed back further west - the americans had always intended more of what is now Western Poland to return to Germany.

America planned to annihilate Germany and partition it years before the war. See Hans Morgenthau’s Germany is our Problem.

It didn't and a lot of the German Volk in the east had to come west.

Ethnic cleansing in other words is okay, so long as America is doing it. By no means a new experience on America’s part, just ask the Cherokee.

Not desirable but at the same time, it could have been worse... someone could have tried and round them up into carriages and take them to extermination camps, just like the Nazi's did with many Jews, Gypsies, Homosexuals, and Mentally retarded persons, to name but a few...

America and Great Britain sterilized thousands of mentally defective individuals in the early 20th Century. America also performed hideous biological experiments on blacks in the Tuskegee injecting them with syphilis. Winston Churchill himself hosted the world’s first eugenics conference in London. The Western allies also deliberately exterminated thousands of German POWs. The Russians slaughtered them by the millions.

[cokephreak]

America did not end the national existence of Germany. Alongside the rest of the allies, they helped liberate Germany from the evils of Nazi regime and re-kindle some of the democratic institutions from the weimar republic


I see your point, but I still wouldn't refer to it as "america freeing germany", as some-one already has.

[JonBoi]

Heydrich, there are always two ways of looking at a particular topic and you have choosen one way.

Am not saying that you have not made some salient points, although I wouldn't agree with all of them.

I in no way condone and sympathise with what America is doing now, nor do I condone past atrocities by the US and British governments which have since been conveniently forgotten.

Germany was partitioned after the war. Could you have come up with a better solution at the time. May 1945? Soviets were already in the East, so was there an alternative to partition then, no, because Germany had been blown to pieces by the allies in an attempt to shatter public morale, as it had limited effect strategically on the outcome of the war. But anyway... most Germans by 1945 were happy to be liberated at least by Americans and British rather than the Russians.

The more permanent partition of Germany in 1949 failed the German people and also meant that the border with Poland issue was effectively overlooked until 1990 which by that time, was to late to do anything about. I agree with you on that point.

As for your point about the 1949 Grundgesetzt. I will repeat my point, it has served the German state very well ever since. I am sure the vast majority of Germans today would tell you the same!


as for your point about injustices (and I know I am probably lining myself up for an argument on this one...)

a) I believe it is an injustice to kill 6 million (or whatever the actual number was, in case this is disputed) Jews for simply having a different religious faith and because they did not fit in with the Nazi's racial ideas.
b) I similarly believe that it was an injustice to murder a substancial amount of Gypsies, just because of their racial background and the fact that for many of them, all they were guilty of was living the life they had led for centuries
c) I also believe it is an injustice to kill someone over their sexual orientation - it is a matter for the individual and not the state to decide
d) I also believe it is an injustice to kill persons with handicaps or who are mentally retarded. They too have much to offer society?

what would you have done with these problems then Heydrich?

of course you can argue there were injustices on the other side as well

a) of course the rapings of innocent german women and girls was disgusting and totally unhuman
b) the bombing of german cities (particularly Dresden for example) was a terrible injustice and has long been recognised as unnecessary from a strategic military point of view

and am sure there are many more examples.

However point is - Two Wrongs DON'T Make a Right!!

[Man Of Kent]

Originally posted by JonBoi
I in no way condone and sympathise with what America is doing now, nor do I condone past atrocities by the US and British governments

Which is more than Heydrich can say about his view of German Govts.

Nazi dude, you seem to still be glossing over the Holocaust...

[JonBoi]

Originally posted by Man Of Kent

Nazi dude, you seem to still be glossing over the Holocaust...

Yep, I would like to see him explain that one. and then see how he could possibly justify it!

[Heydrich]

Heydrich, there are always two ways of looking at a particular topic and you have choosen one way.

It is true there are other points of view. What irritates me however is how the Nazis are demonized in such a way when their crimes are by no means comparable to the outrages of the Americans and the British.

Am not saying that you have not made some salient points, although I wouldn't agree with all of them.

Okay.

I in no way condone and sympathise with what America is doing now, nor do I condone past atrocities by the US and British governments which have since been conveniently forgotten.

I like to remind the Americans and British of their own history when they start lecturing others about "liberty" and "freedom."

Germany was partitioned after the war.

Yes it was, as was the European continent itself and parts of Asia and Africa. Where did Poland go for roughly the next 50 years?

Could you have come up with a better solution at the time.

If I had it my way there would not have been any America intervention in the Second World War. Like South Africa and Rhodesia in the British Empire in my view the American South fought on the wrong side of World War 2. If history was able to repeat itself I would have liked to seen the American South fight against the United States and South Africa and Rhodesia against Great Britain.

May 1945? Soviets were already in the East, so was there an alternative to partition then

Yes, after being aided by the Americans and the British, the Bolshevik Soviet Union was rolling into East Germany to rape women by the millions.

no, because Germany had been blown to pieces by the allies in an attempt to shatter public morale

In which civilians populations were deliberately targeted for extermination by high explosives.

as it had limited effect strategically on the outcome of the war.

If anything, the bombing only encouraged the Germans to resist.

But anyway... most Germans by 1945 were happy to be liberated at least by Americans and British rather than the Russians.

Many Germans worked with the Russians against the Americans and the British. They also surrendered like fools only to be exterminated in American extermination camps.

The more permanent partition of Germany in 1949 failed the German people and also meant that the border with Poland issue was effectively overlooked until 1990 which by that time, was to late to do anything about. I agree with you on that point.

Okay.

As for your point about the 1949 Grundgesetzt. I will repeat my point, it has served the German state very well ever since.

Which was established by military rule. Perhaps we should extinguish the government of Great Britain under Tony Blair, and institute military rule, who knows perhaps 50 years from now they will say it was for their own good?

I am sure the vast majority of Germans today would tell you the same!

Which is irrelevant in the context of 1945-1955.

as for your point about injustices (and I know I am probably lining myself up for an argument on this one...)a) I believe it is an injustice to kill 6 million (or whatever the actual number was, in case this is disputed) Jews for simply having a different religious faith and because they did not fit in with the Nazi's racial ideas.

The Jews were exterminated because they were actively using their influence abroad to influence foreign states to wage a war of extermination against the German people. We are stuck with the VERY SAME problem today in the United States, with influential Jews using their money and influence to use the American military to wage wars against Israel's enemies.

b) I similarly believe that it was an injustice to murder a substancial amount of Gypsies, just because of their racial background and the fact that for many of them, all they were guilty of was living the life they had led for centuries

I suppose then you agree it is a crime to murder American Indians to take their soil?

c) I also believe it is an injustice to kill someone over their sexual orientation - it is a matter for the individual and not the state to decide

Agreed.

d) I also believe it is an injustice to kill persons with handicaps or who are mentally retarded. They too have much to offer society?

So do I.

what would you have done with these problems then Heydrich?

If I had it my way I would have removed the Jews to Palestine, something which the National Socialist Government supported, and something which the British Foreign Office opposed. There never would have been a "Holocaust" if Great Britain and Germany were willing to let the Jews immigrate to their respective countries en masse.

of course you can argue there were injustices on the other side as well

If it is okay for Russians and Americans to ethnically cleanse Germans from their homes - in many cases to rape and exterminate them - I do not see any difference when the same is done to the Jews.

a) of course the rapings of innocent german women and girls was disgusting and totally unhuman

Yet there were no "Nuremburg Trials" for Soviet and American War Criminals.

b) the bombing of german cities (particularly Dresden for example) was a terrible injustice and has long been recognised as unnecessary from a strategic military point of view

Agreed.

and am sure there are many more examples. However point is - Two Wrongs DON'T Make a Right!!

I have no problem when people condemn National Socialist excesses. I am not even a National Socialist. The only problem I have is with the huge historical distortion that is made out of the Nazis.

[Heydrich]

American History Time!

Andrew Jackson's Second Annual Message


It gives me pleasure to announce to Congress that the benevolent policy of the Government, steadily pursued for nearly thirty years, in relation to the removal of the Indians beyond the white settlements is approaching to a happy consummation. Two important tribes have accepted the provision made for their removal at the last session of Congress, and it is believed that their example will induce the remaining tribes also to seek the same obvious advantages.



The consequences of a speedy removal will be important to the United States, to individual States, and to the Indians themselves. The pecuniary advantages which it promises to the Government are the least of its recommendations. It puts an end to all possible danger of collision between the authorities of the General and State Governments on account of the Indians. It will place a dense and civilized population in large tracts of country now occupied by a few savage hunters. By opening the whole territory between Tennessee on the north and Louisiana on the south to the settlement of the whites it will incalculably strengthen the southwestern frontier and render the adjacent States strong enough to repel future invasions without remote aid. It will relieve the whole State of Mississippi and the western part of Alabama of Indian occupancy, and enable those States to advance rapidly in population, wealth, and power. It will separate the Indians from immediate contact with settlements of whites; free them from the power of the States; enable them to pursue happiness in their own way and under their own rude institutions; will retard the progress of decay, which is lessening their numbers, and perhaps cause them gradually, under the protection of the Government and through the influence of good counsels, to cast off their savage habits and become an interesting, civilized, and Christian community.



What good man would prefer a country covered with forests and ranged by a few thousand savages to our extensive Republic, studded with cities, towns, and prosperous farms embellished with all the improvements which art can devise or industry execute, occupied by more than 12,000,000 happy people, and filled with all the blessings of liberty, civilization and religion?



The present policy of the Government is but a continuation of the same progressive change by a milder process. The tribes which occupied the countries now constituting the Eastern States were annihilated or have melted away to make room for the whites. The waves of population and civilization are rolling to the westward, and we now propose to acquire the countries occupied by the red men of the South and West by a fair exchange, and, at the expense of the United States, to send them to land where their existence may be prolonged and perhaps made perpetual. Doubtless it will be painful to leave the graves of their fathers; but what do they more than our ancestors did or than our children are now doing? To better their condition in an unknown land our forefathers left all that was dear in earthly objects. Our children by thousands yearly leave the land of their birth to seek new homes in distant regions. Does Humanity weep at these painful separations from everything, animate and inanimate, with which the young heart has become entwined? Far from it. It is rather a source of joy that our country affords scope where our young population may range unconstrained in body or in mind, developing the power and facilities of man in their highest perfection. These remove hundreds and almost thousands of miles at their own expense, purchase the lands they occupy, and support themselves at their new homes from the moment of their arrival. Can it be cruel in this Government when, by events which it can not control, the Indian is made discontented in his ancient home to purchase his lands, to give him a new and extensive territory, to pay the expense of his removal, and support him a year in his new abode? How many thousands of our own people would gladly embrace the opportunity of removing to the West on such conditions! If the offers made to the Indians were extended to them, they would be hailed with gratitude and joy.



And is it supposed that the wandering savage has a stronger attachment to his home than the settled, civilized Christian? Is it more afflicting to him to leave the graves of his fathers than it is to our brothers and children? Rightly considered, the policy of the General Government toward the red man is not only liberal, but generous. He is unwilling to submit to the laws of the States and mingle with their population. To save him from this alternative, or perhaps utter annihilation, the General Government kindly offers him a new home, and proposes to pay the whole expense of his removal and settlement.

[Alessandro]

Originally posted by pnjsurferpoet
CP you're a good person. Key into any search engine: "Saddam" "torture" Just take a moment to read what comes up.

Key into any search engine "School of the Americas, Fort Benning Georgia".

Look at the alumni of that school. (Although most of the names probably won't mean anything to you)

Look at the history of US involvement in the '70's and '80's in Latin America. In particular look at the training that US military and intelligence agencies gave to government forces fighting Marxist rebels. This training included torture manuals, I've seen them and while I couldn't read them myself, a classmate translated for the class techniques that would make even the hardest man squirm.

I didn't want to believe that my government did this either. But it happened and every REAL American citizen and patriot has to accept that it did. Blocking out what you don't want to hear makes you less of a patriot than accepting it. Its one of the hard realities of being a citizen, taking responsibility for your governments actions.

Equating the tearing down of a statue in Baghdad to the end of a 50 year bipolar international struggle involving hundreds of millions of people is so ridiculous I'm not even going to start in on it. Of course, what do I expect, you were what, a toddler when it happened?

[Alessandro]

Originally posted by Heydrich
It is true there are other points of view. What irritates me however is how the Nazis are demonized in such a way when their crimes are by no means comparable to the outrages of the Americans and the British.



Okay.



I like to remind the Americans and British of their own history when they start lecturing others about "liberty" and "freedom."



Yes it was, as was the European continent itself and parts of Asia and Africa. Where did Poland go for roughly the next 50 years?



If I had it my way there would not have been any America intervention in the Second World War. Like South Africa and Rhodesia in the British Empire in my view the American South fought on the wrong side of World War 2. If history was able to repeat itself I would have liked to seen the American South fight against the United States and South Africa and Rhodesia against Great Britain.



Yes, after being aided by the Americans and the British, the Bolshevik Soviet Union was rolling into East Germany to rape women by the millions.



In which civilians populations were deliberately targeted for extermination by high explosives.



If anything, the bombing only encouraged the Germans to resist.



Many Germans worked with the Russians against the Americans and the British. They also surrendered like fools only to be exterminated in American extermination camps.



Okay.



Which was established by military rule. Perhaps we should extinguish the government of Great Britain under Tony Blair, and institute military rule, who knows perhaps 50 years from now they will say it was for their own good?



Which is irrelevant in the context of 1945-1955.



The Jews were exterminated because they were actively using their influence abroad to influence foreign states to wage a war of extermination against the German people. We are stuck with the VERY SAME problem today in the United States, with influential Jews using their money and influence to use the American military to wage wars against Israel's enemies.



I suppose then you agree it is a crime to murder American Indians to take their soil?



Agreed.



So do I.



If I had it my way I would have removed the Jews to Palestine, something which the National Socialist Government supported, and something which the British Foreign Office opposed. There never would have been a "Holocaust" if Great Britain and Germany were willing to let the Jews immigrate to their respective countries en masse.



If it is okay for Russians and Americans to ethnically cleanse Germans from their homes - in many cases to rape and exterminate them - I do not see any difference when the same is done to the Jews.



Yet there were no "Nuremburg Trials" for Soviet and American War Criminals.



Agreed.



I have no problem when people condemn National Socialist excesses. I am not even a National Socialist. The only problem I have is with the huge historical distortion that is made out of the Nazis.


Are you for real???

The Nazi party and its politics were responsible for the greatest war in history, with tens of millions dead and the SYSTEMATIC extermination of 12 million Poles, Slavs, Gypsies and Jews.

If the Germans had never invaded the Soviet Union, the countries of Eastern Europe wouldn't have been under the Soviet jackboot for 50 years, with all of the resulting misery.

[Heydrich]

Is it not ironic how America tears down statues of tyrants in Baghdad while at the same time erecting statues of American tyrants in Virginia?

http://www.washtimes.com/metro/20030405-15057056.htm

RICHMOND – On April 4, 1865, President Abraham Lincoln and his young son Tad visited the capital of the Confederacy to try to mend fences and begin the healing process after four years of bitter war between the statesToday, 138 years later, Lincoln and Tad are returning to the Virginia state capital when a bronze likeness of the 16th U.S. president and his son is dedicated at the Richmond National Battlefield Park, the site of the foundry that forged munitions for Confederate forces.

Lincoln's return, however, has not been embraced in a city where traffic on a main thoroughfare navigates around towering statues of Confederate heroes and remnants of the Civil War are commonplace.

"He is regarded in the South, and justly so, as a bad guy," said Bragdon Bowling, commander of the Virginia Division of the Sons of Confederate Veterans (SCV). "There hasn't been any clamoring for a Lincoln statue here."

Others disagree.

"I am so very pleased that this statue is finally here, and that Lincoln is finally being recognized in Richmond," said Robert Kline, chairman of the nonprofit U.S. Historical Society, which commissioned the statue.

A native of Illinois who has lived in Richmond for more than 50 years, Mr. Kline, 82, has been working for 20 years to make sure that Lincoln's place in Richmond's history is recognized. He believes the statue is an important step toward reconciliation and healing.

"It took a very determined man to have saved the Union the way he did, and it was very fortunate for us today that we as a nation had his strong leadership at the time," Mr. Kline said as he watched crews unload the statue yesterday afternoon.

The statue, which some believe would be the first of Lincoln in the 11 former Confederate states, has generated an extraordinary response so many years after his historic visit, which came 10 days before his assassination.

The life-sized statue depicts Lincoln and his son sitting on a bench. It stands in front of a stone wall, with the inscription "To Bind Up the Nation's Wounds."

"Lincoln was very much a man of the people, and we did not want to create a statue that created an impression any different from that," said Marty Moran, president of the U.S. Historical Society.

One of Mr. Bowling's biggest concerns is that the statue, which he says represents "the northern aggression," has been brought to the city by people who are not originally from Virginia. "Most of the people involved in this are not native Virginians, particularly the lieutenant governor," he said. "They are forcing us to accept a culture which is not ours."

Mr. Bowling said Lincoln should not be honored in Richmond, or anywhere in the state. "We view that war as illegal and unjust and it was perpetuated by Lincoln," he said. "His invasion of the south after Fort Sumter forced Virginia to secede, which ultimately killed thousands and thousands of innocent Virginians."

Lt. Gov. Timothy M. Kaine, a Democrat who moved from Missouri to Virginia almost 20 years ago, was the city's mayor when Mr. Kline asked city officials about getting private funding for the statue.

"The idea that celebrating Lincoln somehow goes against the culture of Virginia is just wrong," Mr. Kaine said yesterday, noting that Lincoln's mother was from Virginia.

Cynthia MacLeod, superintendent of the Richmond National Battlefield Park, said the statue's goal was to educate people, not to open old wounds. "I would hope we could have civil discussions about this, even if we all disagree," she said. "It is not us telling people what to think, but it's our job to give them the tools they can use for discussion."

As the statue makes its debut today, Mr. Bowling said SCV will hold a protest at the grave of Confederate President Jefferson Davis, a mile away in the 150-year-old Hollywood Cemetery, a final resting place for 18,000 Civil War soldiers.

[Heydrich]

Are you for real???

Absolutely.

The Nazi party and its politics were responsible for the greatest war in history

The British and French Governments who initiated the war against Germany are entirely responsible for "World War 2."

with tens of millions dead

About 5 million of them in India starved to death by Great Britain.

and the SYSTEMATIC extermination of 12 million Poles, Slavs, Gypsies and Jews.

What is the source of this arbitrary number?

If the Germans had never invaded the Soviet Union, the countries of Eastern Europe wouldn't have been under the Soviet jackboot for 50 years, with all of the resulting misery

Which countries would these be again? Would they be Croatia, Slovakia, Hungary, Romania, and Bulgaria which were allied to Germany in the first place?

[Alessandro]

The British and French governments initiated the war????

Remind me again who invaded Poland? After being warned that doing so would mean war?

5 million starved to death by the British, huh? What about the 1 million plus that starved to death in Stalingrad? Or Leningrad? Not to mention the combat deaths caused by the war. The Soviet POW's starved and worked to death in labor camps. Add up the numbers.

The 12 million figure? It came from the Nazis themselves. Being good Germans, they documented everything. The figure that stands out in my head was that at Auschvitz (sp) alone, over 3 million people were put to death. All documented by the people who did it.

The Soviet Union invaded these countries while pushing back the German army that invaded their country.

[Man Of Kent]

Originally posted by Heydrich
The Jews were exterminated because they were actively using their influence abroad to influence foreign states to wage a war of extermination against the German people.

How was a child, in Poland, doing that?

If I had it my way I would have removed the Jews to Palestine, something which the National Socialist Government supported, and something which the British Foreign Office opposed. There never would have been a "Holocaust" if Great Britain and Germany were willing to let the Jews immigrate to their respective countries en masse.

So, it is the British who murdered them then?

I have no problem when people condemn National Socialist excesses. I am not even a National Socialist. The only problem I have is with the huge historical distortion that is made out of the Nazis.

How exactly are their actions distorted? What do we claim that they did, that in fact they didn't do? And vice versa?

[Heydrich]

The British and French governments initiated the war????

By declaring war on Germany rather than Germany declaring war on Great Britain and France.

Remind me again who invaded Poland?

Germany - after the Polish government continued to slaughter and persecute German civilians as well as other ethnic minorities.

After being warned that doing so would mean war?

The war between Germany, France, and Great Britain was initiated by France and Great Britain's declaration of war against Germany. It was not the other way around. The Polish-German war DID NOT entail a world war, only the actions of Britain and France made that possible. Germany DID NOT want war with either Britain or France, and likewise did not declare war upon either of those parties. The reality of the situation is that Britain and France out of vindictive self interest stripped millions of Germans from their own homeland and put them under the alien rule of Polish fascists - the same Poland which was brutalizing its white Russian minority in the East and the Ukranian minority in the South. The purpose of this treaty was to commercially emasculate Germany. Germany was 100% within its rights to wage war against an alien power - Poland - which was brutalizing the German people. In fact, it is the duty of any leader to DEFEND his own people from such atrocities.

5 million starved to death by the British, huh?

In the artifical Bengali famine which accounted for 90% of casualities in the British Empire during the war.

What about the 1 million plus that starved to death in Stalingrad? Or Leningrad?

Thanks to Josef Stalin destroying his own foodstocks.

Not to mention the combat deaths caused by the war.

Combat deaths in a declared war are not murder.

The Soviet POW's starved and worked to death in labor camps. Add up the numbers.

The Soviet's annihilated millions of German POWs after the war. The Western allies exterminated more German POWs AFTER THE WAR than died in the entire Western theatre. This does not include the massive ethnic cleansing of Germans from their homes in the East either. The Soviets were deliberately destroying their own foodstocks. They WANTED their own people to starve to death.

The 12 million figure? It came from the Nazis themselves.

Give me a source.

[quuote]Being good Germans, they documented everything. The figure that stands out in my head was that at Auschvitz (sp) alone, over 3 million people were put to death. All documented by the people who did it. [/quote]

http://www.vanguardnewsnetwork.com/temp/TerrorTimeline/1948ausplaq.gif

http://www.vanguardnewsnetwork.com/temp/TerrorTimeline/1990ausplaq.gif

Well which is it?

The Soviet Union invaded these countries while pushing back the German army that invaded their country.

The Soviet Union - allied with the United States and Great Britain - brutally conquered Eastern Europe. To the victors go the spoils I suppose. As Churchill said, "So far as Britain and Russia were concerned, how would it do for you to have 90% of Romania, for us to have 90% of the say in Greece, and go 50/50 about Yugoslavia?"

[The Matadore]

This guy Heydrich is dangerous. His opinions are racist , aggressive , belligerant , Nazi and basically sick.

How THE HELL can you DEFEND the HOLOCAUST!??

The Jews were buissnessmen , they were rich and powerful in Germany , but does that mean you should slaughter them? Every last one? Women and children? Polish Jews as well? Greek Jews , Romanian Jews , Russian Jews?

You disgust me.

The Allies NEVER slaughtered German troops on the Western front. I dunno where u got that lod of bollocks from.

It was in the East where the real war was fought , Russians did crush Germany ruthlessly , but after what the Nazis did to them first , did you expect anything less?

The Nazis deserved everything that happened to them , they destroyed a prosperous country and split the world in 2 for 50 years.

Nazi Germanys crimes are unforgivable , they were so enormous and terrible that some may think they have been distorted. The Fact is they are for real.

Dont u come up with some load of tripe about American , British or other crimes Heydrich , all countries have black marks in their histories , you just cant seem to admit that the worst tradgedy ever was commited by the civlised , peaceful Germans (and the Nazis).

[pnjsurferpoet]

He's the first person I've met, that hates any open society...including modern day Russia.

My point with this post was the peace movement in Germany doesn't know what its talking about.

Heyrich, the world has changed. And it's a good thing. The Soviet Union WAS bigger...and a horrible place to live. Don't get your leder hosen in a wad.:lol:

[Clandestine]

My point with this post was the peace movement in Germany doesn't know what its talking about

Half the time you don't have much of a clue what youre talking about either pnj, the rest of the time youre talking bollocks.

Guess you'd fit right in with them if they are as clueless as you continually claim.

[pnjsurferpoet]

Clandestine, the only point of all of your posts is to knock America ...while you haven't said anything about France selling missiles to Iraq in 2002.

[kevlar85]

Originally posted by pnjsurferpoet
Clandestine, the only point of all of your posts is to knock America ...while you haven't said anything about France selling missiles to Iraq in 2002.

Just as you haven't said anything about America selling missiles to Iraq throughout the 1980s and into the 1990s.

[Clandestine]

Because whether its 2002 or the 1980's as far as Im concerned, France is no more culpable than our own nation is. Everybody has had their hands in that pie and now we decided to make it into a puppet regime which is just adds to the roster of foreign policy wrongs Washington has committed around the world and which will only exacerbate tensions which are near to the breaking point throughout the region.

You on the other hand gloat over a military victory which was in little or no doubt from the start and fail to comprehend that the greater problems are yet to come (and to come our way).

The difference between us is that I have the credentials and the firsthand experience in many regions of the world where Ive seen the evil Washington has supported, you have not.

I see no reason to make pointless, warm fuzzy posts about the US when I feel it is being led completely down the wrong path. My love for my country plays itself out in working to expose lies, half truths and misconceptions that you and those like you - who choose not to question our own leaders - are being fed daily.

Its a tough job and in this atmosphere an uphill battle, but the public has never been enlightened by those who simply go along with the crowd waving their little flags like mindless drones.

[pnjsurferpoet]

How could you see I was waving an America flag. Freaky.:crazyeyes

[Clandestine]

You and untold millions of mindless sheeple. Hardly surprising.

[The Matadore]

You assume Clandestine that all supporters of America are flag-waving retards , with no grasp of life outside their hometown.

I am from Britain , where the majority (over 70%) support the war.

The Iraqis can look forward to a future of their own choosing , with democratic elections.

How can that be a bad thing?

People have died , Brits and Americans included , to remove Saddam , the Iraqi people are HAPPY he has gone , and the overwhelming majority are looking forward to democratic , representative government.

This is a golden opportunity for the Iraqis , one that has never been avaliable to an Arab state before.

[Clandestine]

Id like to see what hat you pulled that 70% support rating from. The general public in the UK has been recorded throughout as being overwhelmingly against the UK's involvement.

As for these wonderful cozy pictures of liberal democracy just springing from the ground in Iraq, you had seriously better pay closer attention to more than just the corporate media staged PR stunts, other reports emerging are showing clearly that the historic fault lines in that society are reemerging and it is highly doubtful that the puppets flown in by Washington will be viewed as acceptable leaders by those who never had the luxury of escaping to suburban American/British hideaways.

If you think that little more than doom and gloom forecasting as you claimed elsewhere the other day, then you had best go educate yourself into the nature of Iraqi politics and its ethnic power struggles.

[The Matadore]

in the UK has been recorded throughout as being overwhelmingly against the UK's involvement.

Sorry , but thats simply wrong. The UK has always backed its troops in war , this being no exception. The war being right simply bolstered support even more.

To all opponents of war and America in general : Grow up.

American power is a fact , its not going to change. They are determined and they are righteous , defend facist tyrannies if you wish , but theres nothing you can do to save them , theyre a dying breed.

[Clandestine]

If anyone needs to grow up and take their head out of the smoke blown by corporate media its you and others who show little critical reasoning or historic awareness.

First off, my country's foreign policy history, and its support of countless equally as, if not more, heinous regimes than Saddam's, our backing of insurgencies to overthrow legitimate democratic regimes bacuse they were too far to the left for Washington's taste, and our sale of arms to disreputable govts and movements is anything but righteous. The hypocrisy of those who close their eyes and pretend it hasn't happened (and doesn't continue to happen) is breathtaking in its ignorance and self-deception.

I refer you to this excellent editorial which I would suggest you use as a start to doing some real research into what is going on and what is likely given the actors and interests underlying this whole PR spin campaign...

http://www.thesentimentalist.com/archives/000071.html

Although I suspect you like many others are so used to believing the half truths even this insightful analysis will have little effect.

Equally, you are indeed deluded in making the preposterous claim concerning the level of public support for the war. Obviously youve been living in the woods.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/Iraq/Story/0,2763,879104,00.html

http://www.washtimes.com/world/20020320-27353240.htm

I expect others of your countrymen will be here in due course to provide further confirmation of your gross inaccuracy in this regard. Its just too ludicrous to waste any more of my time on.

[Heydrich]

How was a child, in Poland, doing that?

German children did not ask to be willfully exterminated in British firebombing raids. In war, children often find themselves caught in the crossfire of wars initiated by their guardians.

So, it is the British who murdered them then?

It was the British Government which sealed their fate by refusing to allow them to immigrate to Palestine or the UK itself.

How exactly are their actions distorted?

The excesses of the National Socialists are blown well out of historical context in comparison to the atrocities of the allies.

What do we claim that they did, that in fact they didn't do? And vice versa?

That is not the point. What irritates me personally is when several millions Jews die in a war they themselves more than any other party initiated we never hear the end of it yet when several million Africans are hacked to death with machates or when tens of millions of Indians are starved to death by the British Empire it is largely brushed under the carpet. The distortion of history is what irritates me.

[Heydrich]

This guy Heydrich is dangerous. His opinions are racist , aggressive , belligerant , Nazi and basically sick.

This just goes to show how ignorant you are. Here I am attacking WHITE yankees and WHITE limeys and the atrocities of their savage imperialism upon nonwhite arabs and nonwhite Indians and you are calling me the racist?

How THE HELL can you DEFEND the HOLOCAUST!??

I do not believe in the concept of a "Holocaust." I see nothing whatsoever special about the Jews that warrants the enormous historical distortion made out of that event. The British starved to death tens of millions of Indians. Just a few years ago millions of Africans in Central Africa were slaughtered with machetes. Robert Mugabe is practicing ethnic cleansing in Zimbabwe right now and no one cares so much as to stop him. No one gave a damn about that. No one makes MOVIE after MOVIE after MOVIE about the hundreds of thousands of German POWs exterminated in Allied POW camps, the millions of women raped by the allies, much less the savage genocide perpetrated by the Americans against the Indochinese peoples - to top it all off, how America and Great Britain armed the Communist Soviet Union to the teeth.

The Jews were buissnessmen , they were rich and powerful in Germany , but does that mean you should slaughter them?

Absolutely when they used those resources to influence foreign powers to attack their own country. They should have been immediantly shot to death for treason.

Every last one? Women and children? Polish Jews as well? Greek Jews , Romanian Jews , Russian Jews?

If I had it my way these Jews would have been shipped to Palestine.

You disgust me.

The savagery of the British Empire in Ireland, South Africa, and India disgusts me.

The Allies NEVER slaughtered German troops on the Western front. I dunno where u got that lod of bollocks from.

James Bacque, Other Losses. The Allies deliberately exterminated hundreds of thousands of German POWs in Allied POW camps in France and Germany.

It was in the East where the real war was fought , Russians did crush Germany ruthlessly

Along with all of Eastern Europe. . .after Churchill partitioned the European continent itself with the Bolsheviks.

but after what the Nazis did to them first , did you expect anything less?

Stalin signed a secret military pact with Roosevelt in 1937.

The Nazis deserved everything that happened to them , they destroyed a prosperous country and split the world in 2 for 50 years.

ROFL! It was not the Germans, but the United States and Great Britain who were entirely responsible for the Cold War despotism. America alone gave the Soviets over a trillion dollars from 1945 to 1976!

Nazi Germanys crimes are unforgivable

There is nothing in the history of Nazi Germany that compares to the tens of millions of Indians who were starved to death in their own country by Great Britain. This is on top of the slave trade, colonialism, the atrocities in Ireland and South Africa.

e , they were so enormous and terrible that some may think they have been distorted. The Fact is they are for real.

The fact is that the British Empire starved to death MILLIONS of Indians, by far more than the number of Jews purported to be killed by the Nazis. It wasn't Germany that enslaved millions of Africans like Great Britain. It was not Germany which addicted the Chinese to heroin in order to exploit their country.

Dont u come up with some load of tripe about American , British or other crimes Heydrich

You mean like how America simply annihilated the American enemies? But hey, that's manifest destiny right?

all countries have black marks in their histories

There is nothing in the history of Germany that compares to the sheer size of the outrages committed by Great Britain and the United States.

you just cant seem to admit that the worst tradgedy ever was commited by the civlised , peaceful Germans (and the Nazis).

Sorry I do not buy into the theory that the Jews are a master race, that they are worth any more as human beings than the millions of Africans enslaved by the Americans and the British as well as the tens of millions of Indians starved to death by the British Empire.

[Man Of Kent]

Originally posted by Heydrich
German children did not ask to be willfully exterminated in British firebombing raids.

But then it wasn't the stated aim of the UK to wipe all Germans from the face of the earth.

And, once again, I am not defending the Firebombing raids. You are defending the German camps.

Spot the difference?

It was the British Government which sealed their fate by refusing to allow them to immigrate to Palestine or the UK itself.

So the only other option was to kill them all?

The excesses of the National Socialists are blown well out of historical context in comparison to the atrocities of the allies.

I don't dispute that, but again I need to point out that no-one here has defended the allies.

That is not the point. What irritates me personally is when several millions Jews die in a war they themselves more than any other party initiated we never hear the end of it yet when several million Africans are hacked to death with machates or when tens of millions of Indians are starved to death by the British Empire it is largely brushed under the carpet. The distortion of history is what irritates me.

Have we brushed it under the carpet?

Or is the difference that no-one defends what we did, yet people like you will defend what the Nazis did - on the basis that other countries may have done the same thing. Or at least something similar. You see, no-one set up camps designed to systematically wipe out an entire race, or should I say several races. No other nation decided that there should be a "master race" - a 1000 year reich.

In you attempt to place the blame on the UK for WW2, you conveniently gloss over the expansion aims of the Nazi Party, instead making apologies for their anti-semite approach.

Here I am attacking WHITE yankees and WHITE limeys and the atrocities of their savage imperialism upon nonwhite arabs and nonwhite Indians and you are calling me the racist?

Which just highlights your own ignorance. It is possible to be racist against whites.

More so when you aim your vitriol against jews in particular.

If I had it my way these Jews would have been shipped to Palestine.

But without a timemachine you have no option. So instead you make apologies for those who carried out the genocide, and try to blame someone else.

The only people responsible for the Holocaust, is the German State who perpetrated it.

The savagery of the British Empire in Ireland, South Africa, and India disgusts me.

Me too, but then you won't find me defending it.

The savagery of the genocide which was perpetrated against the European Jews between 1933-1945 disgusts me.

You seem to want to defend it. To be honest I'm not sure what is sicker, the act itself or your defence of it.