Sharone says settlements may go.

[pnjsurferpoet]

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2003/04/14/wisr14.xml&sSheet=/portal/2003/04/14/ixportal.html

"Israel doesnot have the strength to rule Palestinians forever."


What an important change in thinking. Israel must have clearly defined borders to be a Jewish state. And a prosperous, peaceful, unarmed, Palestinian state could be good for both sides. As is with all of the check points and settlements and rise in Palestinian births, Isael could easily become like South Africa was with a minority ruling over a majority. This is very hopeful to me.

[hardcorps1775]

we'll have to wait and see what happens. the pals have a new cabinet but arafat and sharon are still the same...i'm really anxious to see where we come down next, too...if there's a brain in dc it'll be over this issue, not that sideshow in syria...

[pnjsurferpoet]

two Jewish settlements on the West Bank, Shiloh and Beit El,

That's the ones he named.

[nosferatu1000]

but the settlments he is "struggling" to give up are FEWER than in OSLO, where all that would have been created was a series of bantustans connected by Israeli owned roads - which was whole heartedly rejected by the palestinians then.

It is nothing more than a sop to the world, to show that he, the war criminal, is reasonable!

oh, and he has 16 "reservations" about the road map - which is highly pro israel as it is....

[Clandestine]

The road map is pretty obvious by now...

Starting at the Persian Gulf just follow the tomahawk craters through Iraq and Syria then look for the IDF forces surrounding Araft's HQ again.


Predictions of the Barak carving match being replayed are looking like they'll be vindicated.

[hardcorps1775]

jesus christ, fucking doom and gloomers, you don't do anything but air out your gums running down people who are at least trying to do something! you don't give them credit for a goddamn thing, not one fucking thing!

thank god for the iraqis, at least THEY appreciate what's going on. fuck the rest of ya!

[pnjsurferpoet]

I think a few things are going to happen. Syria will smarten up and get Hezbollah out of the valley they are in....or we'll bomb them out...since they gave Al Qaeda information regarding chemical weapons...and because it's good for Israel...Sharon will help a peaceful Palestine become a reality. The lastest pole in the US supports Bush demanding a straight answer regarding WMD's and exiled Iraqis.

9/11 taught us we can wait to be attacked. The Middle East will get that straight. I'll tell you something Clandestine, your beloved France is really hurting itself. Americans aren't traveling there...or very few..and we comprised the biggest group of people who traveled there as well as the biggest group that stayed in luxury hotels. In fact, that announcement about the supersonic jet service being discontinued was due to lack of interest from Americans. The "age" of the planes never bothered France before. So if you truly care about your adopted country Belguim and its buddies - France and Germany - you'd better start ranting to whoever in your country about conveying to America how France has been a friend in the war on terror. Or the 1.4% growth France enjoyed last year will go down to 0 or less.

[Clandestine]

hardcorps. There is a difference between doom and gloom, as you put it, and a realistic assessment based on political understanding of the nature of the parties involved, their track records on the issue, and the signals already being sent on the matter before the supposed plan is even unveiled.

You, however, seem content to paint a rosey idealistic picture based on the rhetoric from the Washington spin factory and wishful thinking that is not even remotely likely to come together as you believe.

I suggest you go do some serious research into what Israel has done with the plans put forward in the past. The best of which (Camp David 2000) even had Palestinian agreement before Barak demanded even more.

No, Bush and his Likhudnic aligned cabinet will not be the ones to resolve this issue. They are far too biased in the direction of Sharon to do so.

[pnjsurferpoet]

Oh Clandestiny's Child...can't you be a little hopeful?

What did those Belgians do to your American optimism that anything is possible. *ducks**runs*:rolleyes:

[Clandestine]

I have worked in the political sphere for long enough to recognise what is likely from the kind of thinking that currently drives Washington's foreign policy as well as the Sharon govt.

Know who you are dealing with and you will not fall prey to pie in the sky hopes that have little chance of being realised in this political environment.

If on the other hand you wish to realise those glorious ends, then do the smart thing and put the global bashers back out on the street where they belong and lets get back an administration which is serious about working with the international community to build a better future rather than alienating itself through self-serving bully boy tactics.

Then ill gladly join you in the belief that this conflict can realistically be resolved.

[pnjsurferpoet]

I believe there's going to be a peaceful Palestinian state because it's good for everyone.

[Clandestine]

Perhaps one day when there is an Israeli govt in power that respects the process and doesnt seek to push the Palestinians further into a corner with mere token concessions.

For any agreement to succeed it first has to be seen as acceptable to the parties directly involved, and to date the Palestinians have been shortchanged at the negotiating table too many times to put premature faith in this plan under these particular US/Israeli admins.

[pnjsurferpoet]

But think about it Clandestine...why wouldn't Israel want a Palestinian state. I didn't say they would give up half of Israel. But if the point of Israel is to have a Jewish state, they can't have all of these Arabs living there. Also, the economies of that whole area are a mess from the explosions. I read about a multi-national that built a new factor in Romania instead of Israel because of the on going conflict.

[Clandestine]

For your answer you need to go look into the underlying agenda driving Likhud. They are interested in extending the control of the Israeli state, the continuation of overall settlement expansion is testament to that agenda. Easy to put out soundbites about the odd settlement or two being rolled back, but the reality across the board is altogether different.

The very idea you posit of an Arab-free Israel would fly in the face of any possible settlement insofar as even more Arabs, currently resident in Israel, would be forced out of their homes and land.

Instead of regurgitating sanitised news pnj, try doing some real research first for a change.

[pnjsurferpoet]

extending the control of the Israeli state

Nah. There aren't enough Jews. They just don't want their country destroyed.

[Clandestine]

Youd better go check the open repatriation invitation to all people of Jewish descent and the figures of population growth before you spout more of your wishful and unfounded claims.

[nosferatu1000]

and don't forget to include anyone who converts to judaism....

[Dear Wendy]

Originally posted by hardcorps1775
jesus christ, fucking doom and gloomers, you don't do anything but air out your gums running down people who are at least trying to do something! you don't give them credit for a goddamn thing, not one fucking thing!

thank god for the iraqis, at least THEY appreciate what's going on. fuck the rest of ya!

Someone else has noticed...

[pnjsurferpoet]

If the Palestinians want to be viewed as evolved people, they can knock off the human sacrifices.

Well, Jews are leaving France for Israel. I think it's sad that there was a reason to create Israel.

[Dear Wendy]

It's true. The massive rise of anti-semitism in France has indeed led a lot of French jews to settle in Israel.

[pnjsurferpoet]

I find it difficult to support a Palestinian state, when the Palestinians rename part of Jenin after the suicide bomber who killed our Marines in Iraq.

I'm rethinking my position on Palestine. And I am convinced we have to go into Syria and confront Hezbollah where they operate. We owe it to the Marines they killed in Lebanon as well as the fact that they worked with Al Qaeda in Africa this past December.

[Dear Wendy]

Originally posted by pnjsurferpoet
I find it difficult to support a Palestinian state, when the Palestinians rename part of Jenin after the suicide bomber who killed our Marines in Iraq.


Some pictures from an exhibition in the An-Najah university in Nablus. An exhibition portraying "Sbarro", the pizza place which got bombed in August 2001, killing 15 people, mostly young mothers and their children.
A little more detailedinfo (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/entertainment/arts/1564188.stm).

I saw film recordings, which portraited much more than the pictures I could find. Models of babies, and even a baby carriage in the room. And of course pictures with blessings of the guy who'd committed the suicide act.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/olmedia/1560000/images/_1564188_nablus300.jpg

http://news.bbc.co.uk/olmedia/1560000/images/_1564188_nablus150.jpg

http://www.levitt.com/newsletters/sbarro1.gif

See the Israeli and American flags, placed to wipe your soles on.

http://homepage.mac.com/cfj/.Pictures/an-najah-sbarro-01.jpg

http://homepage.mac.com/cfj/.Pictures/an-najah-sbarro-02.jpg

[pnjsurferpoet]

Thanks for posting that Jac. They are the only people who are into offering up their teens for human sacrifice.

[Simbelyne]

Originally posted by pnjsurferpoet
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2003/04/14/wisr14.xml&sSheet=/portal/2003/04/14/ixportal.html

"Israel doesnot have the strength to rule Palestinians forever."


What an important change in thinking. Israel must have clearly defined borders to be a Jewish state. And a prosperous, peaceful, unarmed, Palestinian state could be good for both sides. As is with all of the check points and settlements and rise in Palestinian births, Isael could easily become like South Africa was with a minority ruling over a majority. This is very hopeful to me.

There are already MANY more Palestinians than Israeli's - they are mostly living in crowded refugee camps outside israel though.


The notion of a purely 'jewish state' is as morally repulsive as the notion of a 'muslim state' no country defined by its religion cab truly be modern. The only viable solution to Palestine/Israel is to create a multi-cultural, multi-faith society in a unified country.

[Dear Wendy]

Originally posted by Simbelyne
There are already MANY more Palestinians than Israeli's - they are mostly living in crowded refugee camps outside israel though.


A lot of Jordanians and Syrians have moved into those refugee camps in order to rise their living standard. Today everyone in the countries surrounding Israel can take up the "honor" and call themselves Palestinian. Even the ones without any connection whatsoever.

[Clandestine]

Why shouldnt they have an open welcome policy since Israel has no intention of stopping their own influx of immigrants?

The double standards of the likudniks are truly astounding!

[pnjsurferpoet]

The notion of a purely 'jewish state'

It's based on historial precedent no to mention the continued persecution of Jews in France, Russia and other places. On the other hand, there's no such thing as a Palestinian in biblical history.

[Clandestine]

Neither is this state of Israel akin to the Biblical Israel. This state was a zionist political entity from start to finish. The ultra orthodox even opposed its creation and only threw their lot in with it when it managed to get off the ground.

Rational thinking individuals do not rely on biblical history to determine the right and necessity for a people to have self determination and an end to hostile military occupation.

[Dear Wendy]

Originally posted by Clandestine

Rational thinking individuals

The irony...

[Clandestine]

...is that you seem to consider yourself one. :lol:

[pnjsurferpoet]

http://www.sky.com/skynews/article/0,,30000-12289289,00.html

Congressional leaders met with Arafat regarding the new Palestinian PM etc. They are to make an announcement on Sunday. I think the sooner they recognize a Palestinian state the better...and work out the details later regarding Jerusalem etc. All the money spent on killing could create so many legitimate jobs.

[Dear Wendy]

Originally posted by Clandestine
...is that you seem to consider yourself one. :lol:

DAMN! You really got me there :( :flirt:

:rolleyes:

[Clandestine]

Im sure youd have done no less for me. ;)

[Simbelyne]

Originally posted by Jacqueline the Ripper
A lot of Jordanians and Syrians have moved into those refugee camps in order to rise their living standard. Today everyone in the countries surrounding Israel can take up the "honor" and call themselves Palestinian. Even the ones without any connection whatsoever.

So Israel can have an unstoppable influx of immigrants but not Palestine? What? did I hear you say they were 'just palestinians'?

[Man Of Kent]

Originally posted by Clandestine
...is that you seem to consider yourself one. :lol:

Dear Mr Kettle,

You're black.

Love from Mr Pot.

[Clandestine]

I guess that makes you Mr. Dishrag?

Jacq, why should the Palestinians stoop to Israel's level and institute a clearly bigotted immigration policy? To the Likudniks all Arabs are looked upon as the same so there is no reason for the Palestinians to be choosy.

[Dear Wendy]

Originally posted by Simbelyne
So Israel can have an unstoppable influx of immigrants but not Palestine? What? did I hear you say they were 'just palestinians'?

So far there is no country called Palestine. Whenever they get their ass together to create such a thing, then let them have whichever immigrants they want. Just wondering how fond they'll be of Jews...

[pnjsurferpoet]

There's a new world order since the Iraqi war. That's what all the commentators are saying on the news. I think the days where terrorists are allowed to run wild are over with. We'll hunt them down. The US public is behind Bush 87%. So there will only be a Palestine if it is peaceful.