War still wrong???

[Dear Wendy]

The News We Kept to Ourselves
By EASON JORDAN


ATLANTA — Over the last dozen years I made 13 trips to Baghdad to lobby the government to keep CNN's Baghdad bureau open and to arrange interviews with Iraqi leaders. Each time I visited, I became more distressed by what I saw and heard — awful things that could not be reported because doing so would have jeopardized the lives of Iraqis, particularly those on our Baghdad staff.

For example, in the mid-1990's one of our Iraqi cameramen was abducted. For weeks he was beaten and subjected to electroshock torture in the basement of a secret police headquarters because he refused to confirm the government's ludicrous suspicion that I was the Central Intelligence Agency's Iraq station chief. CNN had been in Baghdad long enough to know that telling the world about the torture of one of its employees would almost certainly have gotten him killed and put his family and co-workers at grave risk.

Working for a foreign news organization provided Iraqi citizens no protection. The secret police terrorized Iraqis working for international press services who were courageous enough to try to provide accurate reporting. Some vanished, never to be heard from again. Others disappeared and then surfaced later with whispered tales of being hauled off and tortured in unimaginable ways. Obviously, other news organizations were in the same bind we were when it came to reporting on their own workers.

We also had to worry that our reporting might endanger Iraqis not on our payroll. I knew that CNN could not report that Saddam Hussein's eldest son, Uday, told me in 1995 that he intended to assassinate two of his brothers-in-law who had defected and also the man giving them asylum, King Hussein of Jordan. If we had gone with the story, I was sure he would have responded by killing the Iraqi translator who was the only other participant in the meeting. After all, secret police thugs brutalized even senior officials of the Information Ministry, just to keep them in line (one such official has long been missing all his fingernails).

Still, I felt I had a moral obligation to warn Jordan's monarch, and I did so the next day. King Hussein dismissed the threat as a madman's rant. A few months later Uday lured the brothers-in-law back to Baghdad; they were soon killed.

I came to know several Iraqi officials well enough that they confided in me that Saddam Hussein was a maniac who had to be removed. One Foreign Ministry officer told me of a colleague who, finding out his brother had been executed by the regime, was forced, as a test of loyalty, to write a letter of congratulations on the act to Saddam Hussein. An aide to Uday once told me why he had no front teeth: henchmen had ripped them out with pliers and told him never to wear dentures, so he would always remember the price to be paid for upsetting his boss. Again, we could not broadcast anything these men said to us.

Last December, when I told Information Minister Muhammad Said al-Sahhaf that we intended to send reporters to Kurdish-controlled northern Iraq, he warned me they would "suffer the severest possible consequences." CNN went ahead, and in March, Kurdish officials presented us with evidence that they had thwarted an armed attack on our quarters in Erbil. This included videotaped confessions of two men identifying themselves as Iraqi intelligence agents who said their bosses in Baghdad told them the hotel actually housed C.I.A. and Israeli agents. The Kurds offered to let us interview the suspects on camera, but we refused, for fear of endangering our staff in Baghdad.

Then there were the events that were not unreported but that nonetheless still haunt me. A 31-year-old Kuwaiti woman, Asrar Qabandi, was captured by Iraqi secret police occupying her country in 1990 for "crimes," one of which included speaking with CNN on the phone. They beat her daily for two months, forcing her father to watch. In January 1991, on the eve of the American-led offensive, they smashed her skull and tore her body apart limb by limb. A plastic bag containing her body parts was left on the doorstep of her family's home.

I felt awful having these stories bottled up inside me. Now that Saddam Hussein's regime is gone, I suspect we will hear many, many more gut-wrenching tales from Iraqis about the decades of torment. At last, these stories can be told freely.

Eason Jordan is chief news executive at CNN

http://www.nytimes.com/2003/04/11/opinion/11JORD.html?ex=1050638400&en=ea21e8c88feae21c&ei=5062&partner=GOOGLE

[pnjsurferpoet]

From CNN today:

"As recently as early 2001, German intelligence reported that activity had been observed at a uranium processing facility in Qaim, 260 miles west of Baghdad, and that Iraq could have nuclear weapons capable of reaching Europe by 2005. "

I think for some people in Europe, it would take a nuclear bomb up their butts to believe they were in danger. Europe was comprised of too many appeasers in WW2 and still is today.

[Dear Wendy]

Originally posted by pnjsurferpoet
From CNN today:

"As recently as early 2001, German intelligence reported that activity had been observed at a uranium processing facility in Qaim, 260 miles west of Baghdad, and that Iraq could have nuclear weapons capable of reaching Europe by 2005. "

I think for some people in Europe, it would take a nuclear bomb up their butts to believe they were in danger. Europe was comprised of too many appeasers in WW2 and still is today.

Like when they after WW2 found out how close Hitler had been to gain nuclear powers.

[pnjsurferpoet]

Exactly. And then poor Norway had to sacrifice its people on a ferry boat to prevent Germany from shipping its nuclear war head capabilities back to Germany from a plant in occupied Norway.

There was some speculation Saddam would have it sooner...within a year. Then what?

[morrocan roll]

Originally posted by Jacqueline the Ripper
Like when they after WW2 found out how close Hitler had been to gain nuclear powers. they knew throughout the war about germany and its nuclear programme. if i remember rightly we scuppered their plans by destroying the only heavy water they possessed. hitler is no comparison with saddam. yes we did fuck up by not flattening him and his giant war machine. we could have and should have stopped him building the machine.
saddam was actualy our friend until we double dealed him and turned him into our enemy. he was not a threat to the west apart from our own making.

[Dear Wendy]

So basically we can't try to correct a mistake, even though we have the means to do so?
Nice thought.
"Oh, I just hit you. Yeah, I'll just let you cry, instead of giving you the tissue in my pocket".'

Removing him, won't make the scares disappear, but they sure as hell will help them heal faster.

[morrocan roll]

Originally posted by Jacqueline the Ripper
So basically we can't try to correct a mistake, even though we have the means to do so?
we didn't have to resort to war. we had saddam boxed in and slowly being stripped of power. where are all these wmd's then? saddam was in no position to even threaten anyone let alone attack them even if he did/does have wmd's. going in the way we have, we have now managed to kill and seriously maim for life, far more innocent people than saddam could have dreamed of doing in just three weeks. children with no arms, no family etc is a price worth paying then? when we could have achieved a far better iraq and middle east through less dramatic ways.

[Dear Wendy]

Originally posted by morrocan roll
we didn't have to resort to war. we had saddam boxed in and slowly being stripped of power. where are all these wmd's then? saddam was in no position to even threaten anyone let alone attack them even if he did/does have wmd's. going in the way we have, we have now managed to kill and seriously maim for life, far more innocent people than saddam could have dreamed of doing in just three weeks. children with no arms, no family etc is a price worth paying then? when we could have achieved a far better iraq and middle east through less dramatic ways.
How?

Btw, have the death tolls been confirmed?

[morrocan roll]

Originally posted by Jacqueline the Ripper
How?

can you not remember as far back as pre war? we had inspections going on. we could have upped them. plenty of countries were offering. i would have removed most of the sanctions as the inspectors got ever deeper into the job.
someone would have shot saddam and things would have progressed a little more each passing day.
saddam had become a recluse and we couldn't get him? funny how he's off out to his favourite restaurant in the middle of shock and awe ...

[Dear Wendy]

The Hollywood way was tried (The Wafiq they were called if I am not mistaking), the peaceful was was tried, and apparently the last resort was the only thing to actually gain something.

[Clandestine]

Indeed, Israel will be able to enforce its will even further into the ME now with a compliant US lapdog regime installed by Washington according to the plans of well known zionists like Wolfowitz and Perle calling the shots behind the scene.

[Dear Wendy]

You know what, so far Israels will has been to live in peace. Can't exactly say that about the rest of the Arab world.
Maybe you'd shut up, and think through what the fuck you type out!

[pnjsurferpoet]

we had inspections going on.

Psst. You forgot to say and multi-billion dollar oil deals for France and Russia. :p

And how do you know everyone's religion in Washington? I don't even know that.

[Dear Wendy]

Originally posted by pnjsurferpoet


And how do you know everyone's religion in Washington? I don't even know that.

Cause Clandestine is a fucker, who likes to distort thing so they appear as he wants them to.

[kevlar85]

Originally posted by pnjsurferpoet
Psst. You forgot to say and multi-billion dollar oil deals for France and Russia. :p

And how do you know everyone's religion in Washington? I don't even know that.

Psst. Now we've got multi-billion dollar oil deals for the Americans and the French and Russians will still be paid. :p

I assume Clandestine was referring to the evangelical Christian nature of the current White House. :rolleyes: Yes, religion has a lot to answer for... ;)

[byny]

OK - to answer the question -
....Its a hard one. The sight of small crowds in Iraq celebrating their 'liberation' is moving and may be for the better good of Iraq. It may be that the troops in Bagdad have achieved the goal of liberation, however...in my humble opinion the mass killing of people is wrong, be it by torture and chemicals or bombing.

The sight of people freed from bondage imploding and looting and causing havoc is a distressing on and possibly inevitable given that they have been straight-jacketed for decades and now feel they can do whatever the hell they like because they are 'free'.

I feel that it is a shame that it came to this, that the 'goal' was reached by the killing of thousands of innocent people, when there may have been better and more peaceful ways to get to that 'goal'

I still believe the war was based not upon the desire to liberate but on much more sinister reasons that are begining to come to light with the behaviour of the Turks.

Yeas its good that there is hope that Iraqi people will live with some kind of democrasy (eventually) but I still don't agree with the way it took place.

AND, Jacqueline the Ripper, PLEASE don't show yourself up by posting like that about Clandestine who has contributed some interesting and well argued points on these boards and does not deserve to be targeted like that....you are only cheating yourself and it is unnecessary and the reason why interesting debates like this one get closed by the mods.

[morrocan roll]

Originally posted by pnjsurferpoet
Psst. You forgot to say and multi-billion dollar oil deals for France and Russia. :p

and what is the fucking problem with that? your country is the greediest on the face of the planet. not through need but sheer fucking greed. greed that causes major problems around the globe. in your fucking blind greed you are now piling up more problems for us all. what is your fucking problem when another country looks after its own intereststs?

[Clandestine]

Sorry to disappoint you youngins, but the alingment of numerous members of the Bush admin and certain of its ancillary advisors with the interests of the Israeli government are well documented. Wolfowitz, Perle, Abrams, Feith, and others whom i provided a list of some time ago, if you recall pnj, are all hardocre zionists with a strong guiding hand over Bush's foreign policy.

Both Wolfowitz and Perle are dual citizens with strong involvement in the Likhud Party and amongst Sharon's own government advisors as well.

Sorry to shatter your bubble Jacq, but the dual interests at work here are more widely recognised by policy analysts who do not subscribe to the strangle hold which the fundamentalist Christian Right/Zionist lobby have on policy decisions in Washington. Such divided loyalties have no place in US politics nor should they be allowed to.

That the Bush doctrine is a step by step plan to control one arab country after another is too beneficial to Israel's own self interests to be dismissed, however much you would like to hide behind the much abused accusation of anti-semitism.

Im not against Jews, I am dead set against zionists though and make no apology for it.

[pnjsurferpoet]

your country is the greediest on the face of the planet.

Wrongo. America wants the Iraqis to decide who gets what oil contract. The UN wants to administer the oil. The Iraqi exiles and Kurds want the Americans to handle it. :p

[Clandestine]

Stop being so naive pnj. Washignton has long wanted and planned to assume control over the oil. You mark my words and see if it isnt only US and UK firms that walk away with the lion's share. And it will not be the will of the Iraqi people, but of the government which will be imposed upon it by Washington.

If it were any more obvious it would bite you.

[pnjsurferpoet]

From CNN

new details for what he called “town meetings” across Iraq that are intended to help identify new Iraqi leaders who could work with U.S. authorities and begin a lengthy process for establishing democratic rule.
His remarks provided the most specific picture so far of just how U.S. officials intend to restore a measure of stability and initiate a new process of self-rule. He said a meeting planned for next week in the southern Iraqi city of Nasiriyah with a broad range of Iraqis is meant to start a “rolling dialogue” that would “define issues” and enable Iraqis to get a sense of “who are the people that can articulate positions well, who seem to speak for more than just themselves.”
The meetings will be hosted by Gen. Tommy R. Franks, the commander of U.S. forces in Iraq, and will be organized in partnership with Britain, Australia and Poland, the other countries with substantial ground forces in the country.

[Clandestine]

Nice soundbite, but that will not preclude what Washington will set up whilst the Iraqis are being kept busy talking.

The oil contracts will have already long been doled out to the corporations most closely tied to this admin, mark my words.

[Dear Wendy]

Originally posted by byny

AND, Jacqueline the Ripper, PLEASE don't show yourself up by posting like that about Clandestine who has contributed some interesting and well argued points on these boards and does not deserve to be targeted like that....you are only cheating yourself and it is unnecessary and the reason why interesting debates like this one get closed by the mods.

Clandestine, is nothing more than a racist. I am sorry to say so. Only thing he does is to bash either Jews or the American government. Mostly blaming Jews for the "atrocities of the US". I am tired of reading it, and frankly I do not care if this thread gets closed down, cause I seriously do feel that I have a point here.
He'll continue his agenda, and he can expect me to comment on it. Seems fair enough to me.
I can't take this guy seriously.
As much as my opinion differ from f.ex. Toadborg and Aladdin's, I can still associate with them in other threads. Clandestine simply disgusts me.
Sorry, but that is what the map looks like at the moment. Want it to change, then give him a bit of sense.

Originally posted by Clandestine
That the Bush doctrine is a step by step plan to control one arab country after another is too beneficial to Israel's own self interests to be dismissed, however much you would like to hide behind the much abused accusation of anti-semitism.

Yup, the US send their troops, jeapordize their men, only so Israel can stay happy :) WOW!
For starters if this was only a case of keeping Israel happy, they'd let Israel participate. Your ramblings do not make sense, and your arguments for anything are getting weaker and weaker.

Im not against Jews, I am dead set against zionists though and make no apology for it.

And for everyday that passes, I am more and more convinced of why a Jewish state should exist.
Frankly, you are not aware of whatever is going on around you, and just like to spite out your hateful and racist comments.
Sorry to tell you taht your perving within the sex foum was a better read, than what you post in here.

Want to continue?

[Clandestine]

To adress the duplicities driving Washington's foreign policies, esepcially when they are guided by well known advisors with direct links to the Sharon government is not racist however much you wish to argue it.

Further i did not suggest that it was just to keep Israel happy. It has strategic implications for both the US and Israel who as anyone can see have colluded on Middle East policy for decades.

I am not remotely surprised by your vehement dismissal of my views, I similarly dismiss your rather right wing excusing of any wrongdoing by Sharon and co, so on that score Id say we're even.

Perhaps if you like the sex forum so much, youd be better off staying there and not getting your knickers in a twist over here where you are going to be forced to deal with those of us who have considerably more experience in the duplicities of international politics than you do.

Your view of me is not my concern nor my interest here, so rant all you like.

[byny]

Originally posted by Jacqueline the Ripper
Clandestine, is nothing more than a racist. I am sorry to say so. Only thing he does is to bash either Jews or the American government.


Though I am aware that I am now stepping into some kind of spat between you and Clandestine I think you yould re-evaluate your view if Clandestine as a racist.
Perhaps you are confusing political debate and awareness of international political theory with racism.

its a very dodgy accusation and seems to be based only upon a very Pro-American Ideal.

Please ... do not try to win the argument at all costs, youo need to listen and learn from what some of the more regular posters are saying. There is no point in resorting to slander and abuse now is there?

[Dear Wendy]

I do not expect everyone to agree with me. But you are crossing the line. I have seen no other poster be so negative and demeaning towards a certain people/race/religion as you. Even Steelgate mostly focused to keep praising his communism.
I see view your comments as racist. Had I said the same thing about blacks for instance you would have said the same.

But it's the Jews, so it's ok.

Byny, I do not automatically call people racist. And I feel that through the timke Clandestine has posted in this forum, I've seen enough of it. I do mean what I say.
I am pretty tired of his arrogance which has no place, as he has nothing to feel superior for.

Btw, I have spent enough time, and posted enough to know exactly how I should act and react. Thank you.

[Clandestine]

Wrong and yet so expected that that is what you would read. The whole tactic of diverting any possible criticism from Israeli political agendas by spewing the anti-semite rheotoric is both tired and irresponsible.

Not every Jew is a zionist and there are many in the US who do not subscribe to nor condon what Sharon and Likhud have long pursued against the Palestinians. Even Peres stands diametrically opposed to the incessant defiance of UN resolutions, the expansion of settlements and the unending bombardment of civilian areas of the Palestinian territories.

Nevertheless, you are mistaken to presume this invasion of Iraq has not been influenced by broader Israeli interests. That the Israelis were not involved goes to political expedience which neither Tel Aviv nor Washington were prepared to dispense with. If there had been any recognisable Israeli involvement on the ground you know as well as I that it would have enflamed the Arab world far more than is already the case.

That however did not stop Sharon and his Washington lackies previously named (and others not named) from pushing hard for Bush to get the show underway asap.

Now we wait for the next target on this road show and whether you wish to believe it or not, the Sharon government is right their pulling strings behind the scenes in the furtherance of its own militant self interest.

You can bet that there will be no legitimate progress on the Israeli/Palestinian conflict under this admin. They have already demonstrated a willingness to let Sharon do whatever he damn well pleases and both ISraeli and the US are going to find themselves increasingly isolated internationally because of it.

So you go right ahead and sweep the worngs under the carpet by screaming racism, the claim is spurious. I made no slurs against Judaism nor the Jewish population of Israel. My concern is with the political positions of hard line zionists, be they Jewish or fundamentalist Christian (as many are in the US and undoubtedly in Israel as well).

[Dear Wendy]

Never stated that every Jew is a zionist. That every Jew agrees with the current Israeli government, nor that Israel can't see an advantage by removing Saddam, or not having anything to with it.

Just stating that you are constantly spiting anti Jewish shit, and that I am sick and tired of it, and won't listen to it, without commenting.
I do view your remarks as racist. And will continue to do so, until you lay off.

[Clandestine]

Then you read only what you wish to read. I never spouted any anti Jewish comments. Anti-zionist yes.

So frankly I could care less what you wish to believe.

[byny]

Since when did expressing a concern about the Israeli Administration become 'anti-jewish'?? being jewish is like being christian or catholic, its not a nationality !!

judaism is not a race...its a religion!

[Clandestine]

Indeed, but don't count on Jacq seeing that fact.

[Dear Wendy]

Originally posted by byny


judaism is not a race...its a religion!

Won't get into that now.
Still, Clandestine uses the word Jew.

[Clandestine]

Only to demonstrate the difference between what i have posted and what you claim ive posted.

In fact, looking back over this thread not once did I even mention the word Jew before you started raving about racism. My comments were specifically confined to Zionists. It appears you truly do simply wish to excuse any wrongdoing by Israel or its collusionists in Washington by contriving implications that were never made.

[Dear Wendy]

Nah, there you again attacked Israel.

[morrocan roll]

get real jaq. the jewish state is becoming a focus of western concern in the same manner that america is. they both do what the hell they like when it suits them. stuff the united nations. stuff international law and diplomacy. every attack on the bush administration is not an attack on the american people. same with israel. get your head from up your arse and take a serious look at whats going down. israel and america are trampling all over the middle east for their own fucking agendas. why is it ok for israel to flaunt un resolutions and have a massive stockpile of wmd? simple question. been asked before. why when people challenge this are they considered by you to be jew haters? your the one who uses this kind of language.

[Clandestine]

My god, you truly are paranoid and self absorbed jacq. No doubt suffering from a serious persecution complex.

No government of any nation is above criticism, certainly not a pivotal government such as that of Israel's which has flouted UN resolutions for over 30 years with US government support.

If that is the extent of your political integrity then it truly is futile even bothering to respond to you.

[Dear Wendy]

No state is above criticism, but I've seen enough of the groundless stuff which Clandestine spits out like a machine in overdrive.

Both of you get real, this is the first time I call someone racist. And I do believe that Clandestine is racist.

You are the ones making up in your mind that it is an everday term I use.

[Clandestine]

Thank you for your contribution. Pointless, unfounded and wrong.

[Dear Wendy]

Originally posted by Clandestine
Thank you for your contribution. Pointless, unfounded and wrong.

Goodnight :)

http://forums.rushmagazine.com/images/smilies/flipoff.gif

[byny]

Originally posted by Jacqueline the Ripper

Both of you get real, this is the first time I call someone racist. And I do believe that Clandestine is racist.

You are the ones making up in your mind that it is an everday term I use.

You use it now and you use it wrongly...for that it should be challenged.

So its the first time...so what ...we are just pointing out that you are wrong....save it for someone who really is!!

[morrocan roll]

i don't suppose theres much chance of jaq answering any of our concerns is there? yes the jewish people should have their own land. but ...

[Man Of Kent]

You know Jacq, I agree with much of what you write. I can see that you have a unique view on the Isreali/Palestine issue which non of us can equate toand I know that this will make you defensive of Israel. Quite rightly you see that the agression in the region began the day after the State of Israel was founded, when the Arab neighbours invaded.

Ever since then Israel has been forced to guard its borders, and that can only breed right wing regimes. It's a shame that many of the people here cannot recognise that. It seems that the left wing approach is to automatically side with whoever they see as an underdog - regardless of the rights and wrongs of that cause, and the people who support it.

Palestine is just an example of that.

But I still dont think that Clandestine is racist. A conspiracist maybe. Paranoid about Zionists and Oil Barons certainly. But no racist.

That said, I may think that you are wrong to call him a racist, but you were certainly alot closer when you said this...

Originally posted by Jacqueline the Ripper
Cause Clandestine is a fucker, who likes to distort thing so they appear as he wants them to.

[Clandestine]

Thanks for the vote of confidence there MoK! ;)

[Man Of Kent]

Originally posted by Clandestine
Thanks for the vote of confidence there MoK! ;)

Think nothing of it. Even those who manipulate the truth to make their position stronger deserve recognition when they are right.

Now, who else could I say that about... ;)

[Clandestine]

Manipulating the truth is what ive spent years fighting against on these boards. So I'm sure I don't fit your description however much you might think I do.

[Man Of Kent]

Originally posted by Clandestine
Manipulating the truth is what ive spent years fighting against on these boards. So I'm sure I don't fit your description however much you might think I do.

Almost said with a straight face, I'm sure.

Dude, you spend so much time linking tenuous link after tenuous link until a picture appears of what you want to portray - usually that anything Bush does is motivated by oil.

Then you ignore anything which points away from it, and reply in a further tirade against the Bush regime.

You may think that is "fighting" against manipulation of truth, because that is your version of the truth. I personally think you are just as biased in your approach as Fox News is.

What really makes me laugh, is that you cannot see your own bias, whilst you rail against others for not recognising the bias in what they comment on.

[Clandestine]

Having a bias is not manipulating truth MoK. Spin, blurring of distinctly divergent issues and withholding of information in order to hold onesself above accountability and in many cases above the law IS manipulation and that is what I spend my time fighting against, a pity you choose to accept what the mainstream media provides you without similar critique.

It seems you must be convinced that the expalanations you are given by by CNN et al. is all there is to any issue and that hidden agendas can't possibly exist. That's your choice and sadly the choice of the majority of sheeple but it is naive nevertheless.

[Man Of Kent]

Dude, not everyone who disagrees with you is a Govt stooge.

Sometimes people can recognise bullshit, from whichever avenue it comes...

~~~~~~~~~~~~~

So, in the fairness of not maniuplating information, I presume that you give links to other news sources from those who support your disorted version of a story?

In an attempt to give PNJ a view of where your views come from I assume that you have told PNJ about your WTC conspiracy theory, haven't you?

You know, the one that says it was a Israeli/US Govt plot?

[Clandestine]

I never said that the WTC attacks involved Israel. Yet I and many others do suspect some element of US govt collusion and if you wish to close your eyes to the long unanswered inconsistencies of the cover story, wherever they may actually lead in that respect, thats your choice.

No, not everyone who accepts only the mainstream media's sanitised and often spin drenched perspective of the "reality" of situations is a govt stooge. To say as much only sidesteps the point I actually made insofar as you appear to only accept corporate news as the whole truth when it patently isnt.

I have actually posted numerous links over the course of my time here, many of which lead to reports from credible and well respected organisations like the Federation of American Scientists, MediaWatch, and others. You are simply so hell bent on not looking past the surface of matters to admit that there are often much larger issues at work in a given situation than the public is informed of by the mainstream media.

As ive said many times in the past, so I repeat now, those who hide behind allegations of conspiracy theory merely wish to turn a blind eye to the hidden agendas which our govts pursue constantly. I do not content myself to accept such without serious scrutiny and criticism, more the pity those, like yourself, who apparently do.

And I recognise that as bullshit, as do many others.

[Man Of Kent]

Originally posted by Clandestine
...I do not content myself to accept such without serious scrutiny and criticism, more the pity those, like yourself, who apparently do.

The salient word there being "serious". This does not mean paranoid delusions. When you get to the extremes - as you have regards WTC - then you should recognise that you need help.

As I have said before, I know my Govt does things which it then tries to hide. I question what they do in my name, and I don't believe much of what I am told. But if you think it is healthy to always be checking your back to see what "they" are doing to you, then let me point out that we have a ward full of people like you in the hospital where I'm working these days...

[Clandestine]

Well then, content yourself to work with the loonies and Ill content myself to work with the politicos. I suspect your admitted work with mentally unsound might indeed cloud your ability to appreciate the extent to which our govts can go to serve their own ends. But then weve had this argument and I am in no mood to get into again with you.

Suffice to say I consider myself somewhat better placed in international policy circles to see beyond the surface of events to see the legitimacy of my cynicism.

You are perfectly free to maintain your incredulity. It only makes any potential "I told you so" all the sweeter for me.

[pnjsurferpoet]

"Jordan now admits that CNN kept many of Saddam's secrets.


That's the scandal...not that they were in with Bush. These news organizations will do anything to appear that they have speacial access to news and to appease the peace movements embarrassment over not supporting the war. The worry about news organizations embedded with the troops ignored the fact that Sky News and all the rest of them in the Palestine Hotel...were just Saddam's enablers.

[Man Of Kent]

Originally posted by Clandestine
Well then, content yourself to work with the loonies and Ill content myself to work with the politicos.

"There is a thin line between..." ;)

I suspect your admitted work with mentally unsound might indeed cloud your ability to appreciate the extent to which our govts can go to serve their own ends.

It also gives me an ability to spot the people with a slim grasp of real life and those who need strong medication.

To be honest, you seem to glide between the two effortlessly :p

Somtimes I'm not really sure which side of that fine line you are... ;)

[Clandestine]

Much how I view your political views then my friend. I guess that makes us even. :p

[pnjsurferpoet]

I never said that the WTC attacks involved Israel. Yet I and many others do suspect some element of US govt collusion

I you sure you're not French or Egyptian? :rolleyes:

[Clandestine]

Are you sure you aren't? ;)