Any European protests on this?

[pnjsurferpoet]

http://www.cnn.com/2003/WORLD/meast/03/05/mideast/index.htm

Not one? Any celebrations?l

[Aladdin]

The link doesn't work. I suspect what it is about, but I would like you to confirm it. Because if it is about what I think it is, I take exception to the "any celebrations?" remark, and I will be reporting you to the moderators.

I can't speak for others here but I simply have had enough of your offensive, groundless, xenophobic and bigoted accusations.

I await your response.

[pnjsurferpoet]

It was regarding the suicide bombing in Israel. And it was aimed at people who said suicide bombing was the only way the Palestinians have to fight the Israelis. I'm against it because of what if does to young Palestinians and people in Israel. And it's paid for by Saddam. Blair has said that.

You're intolerant and want to post a bunch of anti-American things. You never even try to see the other side of issues like I do.

[Aladdin]

Thank you for clarifying that.

[pnjsurferpoet]

AAAAAAAAAAAAAAaand Alladin. I want people to get pissed off and provide links and a bunch of other things I wouldn't have come across so I can see the other perspective. What you told me about Tony Blair I would never have known about. Never. (Kinda wish I still didn't know.)

It is awful seeing Palestinian houses crushed. AND it's awful to see someone my age blow themselves a part and kill innocent people in Israel.

[Toadborg]

Do you honestly think after posting here and talking to the others for a few months now that any of us would be happy to see people dying?

I am deeply worried if anything anybody has said could be so misconstrued........:(

Saying that the palestinians only way to hit back is with suicide bombings is utterly different to saying that it is what they should do, or that they support it, don't you see that?

Given that you support Musharaff, i would not say that you support his secret police killing opposittion, do you?

[pnjsurferpoet]

That's a good point Toadborg. I just was expressing everything that comes to mind when I see that flag. Maybe some day a peaceful Palestinian state will come to mind.

[Clandestine]

Perhaps one day an egalitarian and peaceful Israel, and a US administration ready to cease all arms shipments to Israel and hold them accountable for their numerous breaches of UN resolutions and wholesale slaughter of innocent Palestinians might come to mind too. I wouldn't hold my breath waiting for it though.

[pnjsurferpoet]

Well, I'll tell you one thing Clandestine, I wouldn't post a topic I put up a few weeks ago: something about taking an Israeli approach to fighting terrorism.

I don't think Sharon's approach works.

The only thing that might is an independent Palestine with set, sovereign borders and no settlements that are impossible to defend and cause suicide bombings.

[Clandestine]

If you truly dont believe in the Sharon approach, then follow that thinking through to its logical conclusions and apply it to the Bush approach of full scale invasions. Now ask yourself how such an act of personal vendetta and corrupt corporate interest will do anything more than fuel hatred, push moderate Islamics further toward the extremist position and increase the receptivity of the claims of actual global terrorists.

Cant divorce one from the other however much youd like to, so I suggest you develop some greater consistency in your thinking before you are forced to lament the even greater mess we all will find ourselves in.

[byny]

In Cardiff there are protests most weekends about the Israelis...in the UK we can protest mostly about whatever we want to and people do.

Is every act of terrorism paid for by saddam...has Blair said that I wonder....what a shame that Blair can't find a way to sort out the ills of the middle east through discussion like he is doing in Northern Ireland right now.

Martin Sheen ..'Inspections work, war won't'

Susan sarandon 'before our kids start coming home in body bags I need to kow how Iraq are a threat to us'

[Clandestine]

And another thought to ponder. IF liberation and democracy were truly the magnanimous aims of the most vocal protagonists of this war (i.e. US and UK) then what should Russia and France worry if they did choose to veto any UN vote if it came to that point?

If we are to establish self determination for the people of Iraq (already shown to be unlikely and largely undesirable to the actual oil interests of said protagonists) then it will surely be up to the government of choice of the people (which would not be the elitest biddies in exile who have no real constituency apart from the US/UK governments) to extend oil contracts to whomever they so choose.

Given the already long suffering of the Iraqis under US/UK led and US/UK maintained sanctions, what likelihood that the further destruction - coming with the impending invasion and bombing - would be subsequently rewarded by a self determined government with lucrative oil contracts? Much more likely those that stood opposed to the unwarranted urgency to resort to invasion would be seen as the friends of the Iraqi people more than those governments which supported Saddam when it suited their geo-political interests and abandoned Iraq to degradation when they were through with him. This is a prime example of what non-extremist Islam actually refers to as "infidel" - namely one who acts as a friend and then turns and betrays that trust.

The reality of this crisis is that it is not a liberation and the promise of democracy is nothing more than a soothing soundbite intended to cloud gullible minds (who already know next to nothing about the nature of Iraqi history and its historic tribal factionalism). What this will be start to finish will be a conquest with the imposition of a puppet regime that answers to the will of Washington and not the will of the Iraqis. That is how Tony and Georgie boy can be so self assured that they will get what they want. Anything else would be a risk that would be too dangerous to permit.

So pnj (et al.) how comfortable do you feel with yet another pending example of the new age of imperialism and how does that square with the glorious aims you so believe our leaders to be pursuing?

Remember conquest is what it is being seen as by an increasingly anxious Islamic world and thus, once proven to have been accurate, will only lead to greater extremism and aggression against us all wherever we may be at home or abroad.

Will you then stand up and call our corrupt leaders to face the consequences of their irresponsible actions or will you close your mind and subscribe ever more firmly to the national persecution complex? I truly wonder and fear that I already know the answers.