The UN's post Saddam plan for Iraq

[pnjsurferpoet]

A month ago, the UN drew up a secret, 60 page plan for setting up a post-Saddam government in Iraq.

It calls for the creation of a U.N. Assistance Mission in Iraq to help establish a new government, and recommends that the United Nations immediately appoint a senior official to coordinate its strategy, the Times said.


"Full Iraqi ownership is the desired end-state whereby a heavy U.N. involvement is unnecessary," the paper quotes the plan as saying. "The people of Iraq rather than the international community should determine national government structures, a legal framework and governance arrangements."


Not that this isn't a good idea. But there's more wheeling and dealing in the UN. I'd never have friends that are so dishonest. It would drive me crazy to talk with people in the UN. Too much disception.

[Toadborg]

deception.

What deception are you referring to, if you are refrring to why that plan is secret then i agree, why is that so?

I can't see the US allowing any 'full iraqi ownership' there is a good probability that they would be hostile to US intentions in the area.........

[pnjsurferpoet]

And the US has Iraqis that are going to fight in the war and then after a few months run Iraq until it becomes a Muslim democracy.

[Toadborg]

What if the democracy wants to rearm, or will not export to the US, or funds palestinian terrorists, or vetoes US backed UN resolutions.

What then?

[Aladdin]

Dishonest pnj? If you want dishonest you don't need to look further than your own corrupt, cheating government.

- A government that lies and deceives making false claims about terrorist links- claims later abandoned due to universal laughter.

- A government that presents 12 year old dossiers written by students as current and valid proof, after doctoring them as well.

- A government that further tries to deceive the UN by presenting sets of photographs taken months apart as recent pictures, in an attempt to fool the UN into believing Saddam was shifting WMDs from its sites under the UN inspectors' noses. It wasn't.

- A government that spies and bugs phones of other sovereign nations in order to be able to bully them and get a 'yes' vote.
See here (http://www.observer.co.uk/iraq/story/0,12239,905936,00.html)

Do you want me to continue?

And by the way, I posted the above link a few days ago but somehow you didn't find the time to give your opinion then. Care to comment now?

[morrocan roll]

Originally posted by pnjsurferpoet
run Iraq until it becomes a Muslim democracy. do you have your head up your arse on a permanent basis?
tell me if i'm wrong here, but how can you bomb people into democracy? does having a democracy mean the people can vote for a communist state? or an extreme islamic american hating leadership? where the fuck do you get this idea from that america will alow iraq to become a democracy? that would be one of americas worst nightmares! go and volounteer you wimp.

[pnjsurferpoet]

Aladdin, you posted this same topic. I'm sorry. I would have commented on your thread. Sometimes I'm running between classes and just pop into the Media Center and post something and pop out. I don't need to see my name on topics. I would have posted to yours. This UN plan thing was new to me.

Bush in a speech in 2001 pretty much said what he was planning to do. I think if the world had stuck together and the US had a track record of bashing people who hit us instead of running away, Saddam might have believed he must disarm. I'm looking forward to seeing the beginnings of a Muslim democracy in Iraq like we're seeing in Afghanistan.

[morrocan roll]

Originally posted by pnjsurferpoet
I'm looking forward to seeing the beginnings of a Muslim democracy in Iraq like we're seeing in Afghanistan.
now i am realy getting worried about the american view of whats happening in the world.

[pnjsurferpoet]

Afghanistan is and the leader fought for it alongside US special ops forces.

[Aladdin]

You still avoid the issue though. In view of the above, do you admit now that your own government is far more dishonest than the UN?


Straight yes or no please.

[morrocan roll]

Originally posted by pnjsurferpoet
Afghanistan is and the leader fought for it alongside US special ops forces. just lets suppose this delusion was in fact reality. how would you feel if the majority voted the taliban back into power?

[Clandestine]

Afghanistan is a joke pnj. And if you think there is any viable democracy there you are woefully deceived.

Outside of Kabul Bush's little puppet has no constituency and lawlessness is at an all time high. Opium production is the only thing flourishing in that factional country and those profiting off it in the political arena are overjoyed at the results as are the oil barons at Unocal plotting out their dirty deals with regional warlords and planning their pipeline.

Id suggest you stop reading the spin and start digging in and researching the truth of what is happening there, starting with the article i gave you the link to yesterday. I doubt however you read or absorb anything offered to open your eyes as further proved by today's round of regurgitated right wing BS and spin.

[pnjsurferpoet]

I read all links offered me.

[Clandestine]

Yet learned nothing. That much is woefully obvious.

And you might try removing Pervez Musharrof from your prayer list if you dont want to constantly look like a foolish hypocrit.

[Aladdin]

Still waiting... yes or no?

[pnjsurferpoet]

Sometimes bad people are good for your country, Pakistan's leaders and police have done so much to save American lives.

[Clandestine]

And just how many Americans you think reside over there? lol.

You are so deceived son you are a joke.

The brutality and repression of those police forces on their own people is the main fact you ignore whilst moralising on Iraq civilian repression. Your whole worldview is skewed and untenable.

[Aladdin]

for the third time pnj, yes or no? After seeing what your government has been up to, do you consider it dishonest? Considering that you believe the UN to be dishonest for simply making plans of post-Saddam Iraq, I would imagine that would make your government the mother and father of all dishonesty after all they've been up to, including spying, telephone bugging and dirty tricks. But I'd like to hear it from you.

Yes or no?

[Kermit]

Originally posted by pnjsurferpoet
Sometimes bad people are good for your country, Pakistan's leaders and police have done so much to save American lives.

Yeah, like General Pinochet was? Or maybe Pol Pot? OK, I wont be nasty, one youve heard of. Like Saddam Hussein was in 1985?

Face it boy, youve shown all your hypocrisy in one fell swoop. But I dont think you are a hypocrite, you just spout off what youre told to believe. Youd probably believe Bush if he said black was white, then get run over on a zebra crossing trying to defend that view.

[Toadborg]

Originally posted by pnjsurferpoet
Sometimes bad people are good for your country, Pakistan's leaders and police have done so much to save American lives.

So you will admit then that from your point of view Saddam is not a bad person, but he is a bad person now

That is frankly a weird point of view to take, the US's own track record in creating their own enemies should make you think about the unquestioning support you give to tyrants who may serve the US interest currently but are likely to be future enemies........

[pnjsurferpoet]

No I was talking about the Pakistani guy you mentioned. He's getting Al Qaeda for us.

Aladdin, I think all governments are all over the place morally. I just object that I only see anti-American stuff and protests. That's my problem. Not that people in the American government don't do things...I read your links. Do you really think I just brush them off? I'm like a sponge...I take in everything. But I don't see the same outrage about France and others. That's my problem.


I trust Bush because he has the power, right now, to protect us. Same thing with Tony Blair. What you said about Tony Blair Aladdin really bothered me. So obviously I took it to heart.

[Toadborg]

I understand how you feel that the protests are mainly in one direction and their is something in that with relation to the war for oil argument etc.

But you must realise that the protests are about the war and the strength genuinely represents public opinion on this issue.

On other issues there will be a swing the other way but at the moment much of the world is against US policy.

You are going to have to deal with that, you yourself support American policies that are good for America, these will often be bad for other nations and due to the influence of the US, what ever they do will have a big effect.......

[Clandestine]

...And when you awaken to realise how Bush has abused that power, strained long lasting and mutually productive relations with global allies, propagated lies and spin to snow the American public whilst further driving our nation back into the days of mega deficits - which you and your children will pay the price for, and sent our men and women off to risk their lives upon promises of a future he has no intention nor ability to bring to pass... will you think back and recognise that such blind trust was foolish? Or will you blindly trust the next leader that comes along provided he's Republican?

Not questioning the motives and actions of our own leaders first, especially when they are the ones pushing hardest for global conflict, is the sign of a complacent and compliant mind.

If you have absorbed so much as you claim, then demonstrate it with more than insults and labels of peoples and nations you know absolutely nothing about. And try to post your own thinking (or better yet questions) rather than endless cut and pastes.

[Toadborg]

Is that avatar you Clandestine?

[Aladdin]

A lot of governments are indeed involved in businesses deals and weapons sales with dodgy countries. The reason people highlight the US administration and no others it's because they are about to go to war. Going to war it's not a "right". That's what it's being discussed here.


Your PM box is full Clandestine. I like your new signature. :) Who's the man in the picture? Can't make it out. Is it you?

[Clandestine]

No its Guy Verhofstadt, PM of Belgium. Just thought he deserved to be alongside your AV after all as one of pnj's bad European leaders! lol.

PM box cleaned out, Al :)

[Toadborg]

I think pnj should get Blair or Musharaff to keep the theme going, Murph the Smurf could get Donald Rumsfeld, oh the fun........

[Aladdin]

I'm sure Putin will look nice in a 60 x 60 pixel image. :D