Naughty naughty Turkey!

[Aladdin]

The Turkish Parliament has done it and voted against US troops using Turkey as a launch pad for the war. Story (http://www.sky.com/skynews/article/0,,30200-12259070,00.html)

"You are with us or against us", Dubya's infamous and ludicrous phrase that pnj likes quoting so much.

So what are you going to do now? Can the Turks brace themselves for harsh economic sanctions? Will US congressmen campaign to change the name of 'Turkish Baths' to 'Freedom Baths'? What will you eat at Thanksgiving? :lol:

[Toadborg]

Are they serious though, or just trying to get more loot out of the US?

[Aladdin]

The government had already agreed a nice and lucrative deal with the US and was hoping to pass the motion. However much of the Turkish parliament- as well as practically the whole of the Turkish public- is against it regardless of how big a bribe there might be in store for them.

Pretty much like in Britain, only difference being that in Turkey the democratic process obviously works better. Who would have thought a few years ago that Turkey would teach us a lesson in democracy?

[Toadborg]

Quite embarassing.

Our political system is crap.

I read the other day that blair was talking about invoking Royal perogative!

Unbelievable! :crazyeyes

[pnjsurferpoet]

I hope America works for the reasons you and Clandestine say regarding Turkey - that's it's all about economics and how much money America pays to buy influence and earn more money and not for the reasons I think - to keep people free.

I also hope this doesn't cost any American or British troop lives.

[Clandestine]

Stop thinking Pro-war for a change pnj, and start asking the harder questions of why our government is peddling such increased fear and paranoia amongst the populace and spreading antagonistic lies about long time allies, and perhaps youll start to legitimise that righteous indignation you so want to vent. However, youll have to be prepared to accept a vastly new and closer target to begin venting at.

If you havent already seen it, I truly suggest you go see Bowling for Columbine and pay attention to the overall context of American life and the systemic political manipulation of fear that it clearly depicts concerning everyday domestic life. You might actually see our national narcicism clearly for once and begin to understand that the reactionsim its given rise to in the international arena is what has only spiralled us to even further need for reactionism.

The cycle must be broken from the grassroots!

[pnjsurferpoet]

What I was saying was I hope we're not giving out money just to support democracies like I always believed. I hope the money we spent in Turkey was for selfish reasons as you suggest. That would mean there should be no more coming from us.

And I hope their decision doesn't cost the lives of British or American troops.

[Clandestine]

any blame for decisions that risk US and British troops should be blamed on Washington and London respectively, nowhere and noone else pnj.

[Clandestine]

We have never given money "to support democracies" pnj. Our gov and their corporate backers give money to secure commercial interests and investments. Like I said before, its all about profit in the long run. And in the long run, when Bush is out and the country returns to its grazing, there will hopefully be a more intelligent leader at the helm who will endeavour to correct the damage done by this admin's belligerence.

[pnjsurferpoet]

War vote shatters Turkish markets

ANKARA, Turkey (CNN) -- Turkey's markets collapsed Monday after the country's parliament rejected a multi-billion dollar U.S. troop deal.

The main stock market was down about 11.6 percent at the close while the Turkish lira fell almost 5 percent and was trading at 1,670,000 to the dollar when the Central Bank said it was considering whether to intervene -- bringing the currency to 1,654,000 by the close.

*smirk*

[Darth Fred]

Easy with the schadenfreude there, pnj...

Besides, given the general nature of stockmarkets, they'll probably recover most of the losses within a week... then crash by 20% for reasons that won't be understood properly for months.

[pnjsurferpoet]

"schadenfreude" blaaaahaaaaaaaaaaaaa:lol:


I like that one. Gonna use it on my little sister.;)

[Clandestine]

Do you even have a clue what it means?

[pnjsurferpoet]

Their stock market has been devalued by 16%. They said that's like the Dow losing 1,000 points.

[Aladdin]

And I take my hat off to them for standing up to Bush's 'bribe and bully' tactics, even if it will cost them money.

[pnjsurferpoet]

Pulls them into a recession. Not just money. Joy. Joy. Joy.

:lol:

[Toadborg]

Originally posted by pnjsurferpoet
Their stock market has been devalued by 16%. They said that's like the Dow losing 1,000 points.

That doesn't really say a lot.

There is probably quite a bit of US money on that market anyway so i wouldn't be too pleased..........

[Toadborg]

Originally posted by pnjsurferpoet
Pulls them into a recession. Not just money. Joy. Joy. Joy.

:lol:

And you don't think that will affect other economies, including yours?

[Aladdin]

And furthermore, you are happy that people might suffer as a result your government punishing them for opposing a war?

Don't complain any more that some people hate the US and want to see Americans dead. And if there is another massive terrorist attack on US soil and lots of Americans are killed, I trust you won't complain either when people in several countries are seen dancing on the streets with great joy- the same joy you seem to get out of poor countries being stamped on by your oppressive anti-democratic government. :rolleyes:

[Clandestine]

You don't understand Aladdin. It's okay for spoiled little American brats to laugh and take pleasure in the suffering of others so long as our government declares them bad and wrong. But since our government is by nature good and just and moral, any ridicule of Americans and their suffering is the height of evil!

Come on, get with the double standard will you pleease!!!

[pnjsurferpoet]

Marshall Plan. :cool:

[Clandestine]

And just how much do you think our spiralling budget deficit or our fading economy can handle pnj?

You do have a serious naivete problem if you think the majority of the American public want to bear such a financial burden once again to restore the level of infrastructure that Iraq had prior to the original Gulf War.

[Murph the Surf]

clandestine,

Americans are spoiled brats? We work longer hours and are far more productive than any other workers on the planet. We rather like our "spoiled" country that we have built for ourselves.

We drive monster SUV's that guzzle gas. We shower daily as opposed to many in Europe who think that is odd. We have built the most powerful economy in the world. We have built the greatest military in the world. Frankly, most of us could care less about Europe or what it thinks. We are too successful to take advice from those who hate our success as a people.

The American public has borne the brunt of helping countries all over the world. We also pay the most in dues to the U.N. and get criticized all the time by third world loonies.

We are going into Iraq regardless of what the world thinks. We are going to go where we think it necessary to go to defend ourselves.

Rant on and cry foul and cast your aspersions. We are on the march and we are not going to stop until we feel we are safe from terrorists.

The American government cares little in the end about what the rest of the world thinks we should do. We are going into Iraq and we are going to hang that saddam fellow by his...!

So go on and attack America. France and Germany are gutless whiners that we don't need. We are going to war by ourselves if necessary.

Oh yeah! We can do anything we like and there is nothing that France or Germany can do to stop us!:lol:

As the world has always hated us we see no reason to look for your approval now. We will, as always, act to defend ourselves.
Rant on about how ignorant and arrogant Americans are. We will be ignoring our anti-American attitudes as we always do.:p :D

[pnjsurferpoet]

*high fives a fellow new generation of Americans who aren't ashamed of our success and leadership*

[Clandestine]

Ah yes, more narrow minded mutterings that display how ignorant many of our countrymen are of the outside world, of the interdependence of the world economy and of the disastrous future ahead for those who think might makes right will do anything other than leave us increasingly isolated and economically strapped.

Obviously bubba isnt done fixin your pickup yet, so perhaps you should go grab another Billy Beer, change your t shirt and go watch some more WWF.

Whilst youre at it, i suggest you bother to do some research. We (the US) have been for almost two decades in arrears on our payment of our UN dues, to the tune of some 1.3 billion currently owed.

However, you go right on and swallow the right wing lies and pride yourself on past glories whilst ignoring the even greater number of world messes such thinking has created.

We can thank our lucky stars that at least some of our politicans have a clearer insight into the consequences of our national attitudes and actions than this neanderthilic display! :rolleyes:

[Aladdin]

pathetic rant originally posted by Murph the Surf


:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

[JonBoi]

Originally posted by Murph the Surf

Americans are spoiled brats?.....We shower daily as opposed to many in Europe who think that is odd.

You guys over the water shower everyday?? Jeepers, well don't we Europeans feel like the dirty men of the world now.

** looks around for a bar of soap to take to his weekly shower, but can't find any because am not living in the land of the freshly washed **

[Clandestine]

Shhh jon boi. Dont mention to him also that per capita output of German workers even in a 4 day work week exceeds that of US workers in a 50+ hour work week.

The facts only confuse such minds further.

[Toadborg]

Originally posted by pnjsurferpoet
*high fives a fellow new generation of Americans who aren't ashamed of our success and leadership*

I increasingly understand the rationale for any attacks on the US, it amazes me how some people don't see it.......

pre-emptive strike to annihilate the 'new generation of americans' anyone?

They don't sound very pleasant.

(Im sure Americans aren't really like that on the whole, are they?)

How old are you Smurf?

[pnjsurferpoet]

Toadborg here's the bottom line on Turkey and Europe. Since we've gone out of our way to protect and rebuild countries, for them to not even allow us to stage our troops in their countries is disgusting to me. We're not asking them to commit troops. And the country that has had so much to say about it, France, is the one that isn't part of a military alliance...and yet they try to insist NATO buys French planes. Also we pay for a lot of NATO. How could you not understand our anger...unless you hate America so much you're just getting off on people being unethical and disloyal to us....not to mention the UK.

[Clandestine]

Go back and study the Marshall Plan my boy, and especially what was foreseen in such large reconstruction grants in the first place. Your understanding of history is shallow and the fact that you think we are owed absolute unquestioning obescence for loans that only further secure markets of our capital and commerical interests is laughable.

The Marshall Plan was not a magnanimous gift on our part, it was shrewed planning for commerical profitability. Can't conquer markets if those markets are essentially deicmated (as was a large percentage of Europe post WWII).

To use this as argument for allowing any US administration to attack whomever it pleases in the world without question or rationale, is evidence of a very shallow comprehension and a very dangerous reactionary. Keep on going in the direction you are demonstrating and soon youll be the moral equivalent of the terrorists you are so fearful of.

[pnjsurferpoet]

Hmm. Read this in the news today:

Turkey's powerful armed forces on Wednesday backed a tentative government move to submit a fresh motion to parliament allowing U.S. troops to open a "northern front" against Iraq (news - web sites) from Turkey.

Chief of the General Staff Hilmi Ozkok said Turkey would be better off in any war than out of it, and argued that opening an extra front against Iraq from Turkey would mean a short war.

[Clandestine]

And go read what I wrote concerning any eventual involvement of Turkey in any invasion on Iraq. What the Turks intend to do in the Kurdish territory of Northern Iraq is not consistent with what you think this invasion intends to achieve in terms of democracy my boy.

Best you try putting the whole picture together in your head rather than just disjointed soundbites. You may gain a critical appreciation of what the true hypocrisy being seen by war protestors is in this whole scenario.

[Kermit]

I happen to think Murph the Surf has to be right. The Americans are clean, so they must be better- its why theyre going to war with Iraq, its so they can sell them Imperial Leather to all those impoverished people who dont have soap.

Random quote: I'd love to be skinny like the Ethiopians but I dont like all that disease and shit.

The French are being self-interested in terms of selling planes to NATO< its their prerogative. In the same way the US will want NATO to buy US planes.

As for Turkey- you laugh about their stock market, as Im sure you laughed at the Japanese market crashing in the late 1990s. Or, you did laugh until it nearly took Ford and General Motors with it. Point: In a globalised world, a butterfly flaps its wings in Brazil and brings a hurricane into Florida. Cause and effect, my dearies. And as well as that, do you understand why so many countries despise the USA now? "Were better than you, and if you dont do as youre told well destroy you". Only works for so long before people start turning around and telling the USA to fuck off. And thats why Al Qaeda could get the support- it was a giant fuck off. With planes, into a symbol of capitalism overlording.

Without the rest of the world to exploit US industry would be nothing. Just rememebr that in your next tirade of grade a bush-shit.

[pnjsurferpoet]

This is so fasinating to me. First I read Turkey elected more radical Muslims. Now I hear they elected a pro-US Prime Minister. What's the deal?

[Clandestine]

The man set to take the Prime Minister position, pnj, is the leader of the Islamic party which swept the elections last year.

This man may well support the nearly 80% of the population which opposes Turkey's involvement in the war. The prime consideration he faces in altering his previously announced position, however, would be a hefty bribe from Washington and/or promises for the Turkish military to be involved in any invasion so that they could annex the Kurdish north (effectively destroying the 12 year long democracy that has flourished there).

The man himself, Recep Erdogan (heard pronounced as Erdewan as well) has himself, up till just the past day or so, been banned by Turkish law from consideration as PM for his previous conviction for stirring racial hatred.

Something to think about should you choose to add this man to your prayer list! :rolleyes:

[pnjsurferpoet]

Is Moose and Squirrel. (Still disappointed you aren't a spy Clandestine.)

Got rid of the list. It made people on the site too angry.

So that makes more sense. And that was totally left off the news broadcast I watched. What would Mr Murdoch say about that. Probably....good going boys.