The Finsbury Park mosque raid.

[pnjsurferpoet]

150 police swooped on Finsbury Park mosque at 2am.

Radical Islamic cleric Abu Hamza wasn't there, but I've even read his hate-filled rantings before from this mosque. And he has connections with Al Qaeda and the police say they were careful regarding the prayer areas. 7 people were arrested.

Here's the debate on this to me. Of course the West can win the War on Terror. But beyond lives, one of the greatest costs we have to live with are the freedoms we've destroyed in the quest to win. Are we doing as good a job in protecting civil rights as we are in getting the bad guys?

[Man Of Kent]

You know, during WW2 most of the population had very few civil rights. I guess there are times when that is something I would be willing to accept...

[monocrat]

Originally posted by pnjsurferpoet
150 police swooped on Finsbury Park mosque at 2am.



Here's the debate on this to me. Of course the West can win the War on Terror. But beyond lives, one of the greatest costs we have to live with are the freedoms we've destroyed in the quest to win. Are we doing as good a job in protecting civil rights as we are in getting the bad guys?

Those who give up freedom for security deserve neither freedom OR security.

Yes, combating terrorism is of great consequence nonetheless sacrificing basic civil liberties is not warranted. That crap about ID cards was whooly foolhardy. It's no one else's business who I am and I see no reason to carry a piece of plastic around because some terrorist might attack your country.

[byny]

You'know that when pearl Harbour happened loads of Japanese Americans were persecuted...It's a difficult thing! specially when people identify you as being part of a particular group just because of the way you look!!

[pnjsurferpoet]

So glad you guys have replied to this. The debate has been on my mind.

[Balddog]

I dont have the slightest problem with the raid..

Comparing it to the japanese is unfair and not accurate. ALL japanese americans were detained and herded into camps...Nobody has even suggested holding all muslims, or even all iraqis/afghans/saudis, prisoner in this situation.

The police believed a crime was being committed inside that mosque, they raided it as they would any other building, and it was closed while they were investigating.

[pnjsurferpoet]

The article also said the police took care regarding the prayer areas. If forces have to go into Iraq, they will be going into mosque's too because Saddam has supposed hidden weapons in their basements.

[DinkyDau]

About time they raided the place. They have found weapons, passports and credit cards and the terrorist supporting Abu Hamza says "nothing to do with terrorism or criminal activity, it must be the cleaner, that left them there" :rolleyes:

[pnjsurferpoet]

I've even heard about that mosque all the way in America.

Clearners blahaaaaaaaaaaa funny. :lol:

[Clandestine]

Anyone willing to say that our civil liberties and rights are worth sacrificing for security have already declared the terrorist extremists as victors.

If our liberal societies are superior to that which so many have gotten on the bandwagon to rant about then upholding those freedoms and rights in the face of those who threaten them should be our first priority.

Sadly, those who are threatening and riding roughshod all over our rights and freedoms, are our own power-hungry leaders (who are supposedly sworn to uphold those freedoms and rights).

[morrocan roll]

the times they are a changing. some of us are going to have to be freer than others. like it or not it's going to have to be that way. finsbury shows courage and determination in finding our enemies as oposed to going killing madman insane. but... we need to secure our power in the middle east evermore, in this mad bad world. threats to my lifestyle are coming from ever more directions. whatever the problems and from whence they came no longer realy matter. what matters is that those threats are looming ever larger, wether you percieve them as nonsense or not. if this were a computer a game then, finsbury would have been surrounded or eliminated. you would certainly be keeping an eye on it. look were putting our towels down and declaring iraq to be our beach ok. we're having it. those already living within our city walls are another thing again. freedom is relative.
and if you've got relatives like mine...

[monocrat]

Originally posted by Clandestine
Anyone willing to say that our civil liberties and rights are worth sacrificing for security have already declared the terrorist extremists as victors.

If our liberal societies are superior to that which so many have gotten on the bandwagon to rant about then upholding those freedoms and rights in the face of those who threaten them should be our first priority.

Sadly, those who are threatening and riding roughshod all over our rights and freedoms, are our own power-hungry leaders (who are supposedly sworn to uphold those freedoms and rights).

Hear hear.

[DinkyDau]

I'd rather a mosque that is being used by terrorists be raided than whine about civil liberties..........those that whine think of this YOU might be one of those killed or injured by these muslim terrorists if they attack a target in the UK, will you then be saying "well I've lost both legs but hey at least the terrorists didn't have any civil liberties infringed"...like fuck you will

[monocrat]

Originally posted by DinkyDau
I'd rather a mosque that is being used by terrorists be raided than whine about civil liberties..........those that whine think of this YOU might be one of those killed or injured by these muslim terrorists if they attack a target in the UK, will you then be saying "well I've lost both legs but hey at least the terrorists didn't have any civil liberties infringed"...like fuck you will

Terrorists have won if you give up basic freedoms.

[Balddog]

Why are you guys talking of civil liberties being removed? Nothing has changed here...The mosque would have been raided if this same thing had happened 3 years ago. The police were simply doing their job, the same job theyve always done..

The only reason this is an issue is because of the whole terrorist issue at the moment but nothing has changed, no civil liberties have been given up to allow the police to do this.

[DinkyDau]

Originally posted by monocrat


Terrorists have won if you give up basic freedoms.

really I disagree, the terrorists win when YOU give in to them and let them modify YOUR behaviour

so what would you do about the terrorists in the mosque then ? give them some anger management lessons ?

String the bastards up I say.

[Whowhere]

Originally posted by Clandestine
Anyone willing to say that our civil liberties and rights are worth sacrificing for security have already declared the terrorist extremists as victors.

If our liberal societies are superior to that which so many have gotten on the bandwagon to rant about then upholding those freedoms and rights in the face of those who threaten them should be our first priority.

Sadly, those who are threatening and riding roughshod all over our rights and freedoms, are our own power-hungry leaders (who are supposedly sworn to uphold those freedoms and rights).

I'd much rather have my identity and the identity of those around me logged onto a central computer if I knew it would help track down the guilty parties.
I'm innocent, therefore I have nothing to hide. Weapons were uncovered at the mosque, and it can be argued that we violated this guy's civil rights. However, a warrant was obtained by the courts, making the whole thing legal, and weapons and other articles relating to terrorism and people smuggling were found, and the guy, Abu Hamza or whatever his name is will hopefully be facing a sentence of life imprisonment or deportation.

I think the point is, the "violation of his civil liberties" has stopped the possible attack and murder of British citizens by persons associated with him. People like him don't deserve liberty, they deserve to be locked away.

[Whowhere]

Originally posted by DinkyDau


really I disagree, the terrorists win when YOU give in to them and let them modify YOUR behaviour

so what would you do about the terrorists in the mosque then ? give them some anger management lessons ?

String the bastards up I say.


The terrorists win when you are dead. Having our movements tracked, will at the end of the day make it harder for them to operate, if they can't operate they can't kill. We win.

[pnjsurferpoet]

The shoe bomber who tried to blow up the American Airlines two Christmases ago going from France to Miami attended this mosque and another one charged in the 911 attacks also attended this mosque.

It's one of the worst in the world in terms of harboring terrorism. But I feel we still have to keep an eye on not ruining our own countries ourselves. These arrests to me were welcome.

[monocrat]

Heck shoulds our movements be tracked. Is it really just to surrender freedom for security?

So should the government introduce ID cards and allow the police to stop people on demand to produce them?

[pnjsurferpoet]

Police found a stun gun and tear gas in the mosque. Also I remembered this is the mosque that was celebrating 911.

[morrocan roll]

Originally posted by monocrat
Heck shoulds our movements be tracked. Is it really just to surrender freedom for security?

So should the government introduce ID cards and allow the police to stop people on demand to produce them? the police stop people whenever they like anyway. as for giving up certain things to defeat your enemy then thats fine with me. terrorists must know that helping them is, the weak liberal modern minded man. it's time to stand up and fight for what you have and stop fucking moaning. what you've got, other generations gave you. most of you have done fuck all so far so, giving up a little freedom is sod all.

[Balddog]

Originally posted by pnjsurferpoet
Police found a stun gun and tear gas in the mosque. Also I remembered this is the mosque that was celebrating 911.

along with hundreds of stolen passports and credit cards, 4 more Ricin attack suspects and a replica gun.

The raid was entirely justified.

[Toadborg]

Originally posted by Balddog
Why are you guys talking of civil liberties being removed? Nothing has changed here...The mosque would have been raided if this same thing had happened 3 years ago. The police were simply doing their job, the same job theyve always done..

The only reason this is an issue is because of the whole terrorist issue at the moment but nothing has changed, no civil liberties have been given up to allow the police to do this.

I think the anti-terrorist bill does represent a decrease in the civil liberties of British citizens.

The govt can now legally lock you up indefinately without trial if you are suspected of terrorism, this is quite a significant cjange in our legal system don't you think?

[pnjsurferpoet]

this is a good discussion. I learn a lot from all of you..

[Clandestine]

And we've already seen how easily innocent people can be lumped onto lists of suspected terrorists without the right to see the evidence against them or to defend themselves (i.e the case of Lofti Raissi in recent months)...

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/events/newsnight/1822772.stm

As they say, where there's smoke there's fire and by that token if one man is falsely accused there are surely others out there being turned into media scapegoats to serve vicious and paranoid people who want to believe that there are terrorists behind every tree. Gives the warmongers the carte blanche they need to worsen the problem until perhaps we do have such a scenario facing us.

One long cycle of self fulfilling prophesies courtesy of the MIC and our tax dollars.

[pnjsurferpoet]

good link clandestine (even though I still hate that mosque for celebrating after 911 and having the shoe bomber as a member.)

[Clandestine]

no doubt and I too do not respect in any way when religious groups promote the use of extremist violence. It basically undermines the value of the god such people claim to believe in, but in terms of our own government's witchhunts I think once we sacrifice our rights and civil protections we are as much at threat from those in our own government infrastructures (incl. police, military, etc..) who would prefer to see the general public merely as stepping stones in the furtherance of their own careers.

Its far too easy at that point for political opponents, dissenters, or any host of racial or ethnic groups to be targetted and falsely accused by the state.

[pnjsurferpoet]

cool post. that's what I wanted to discuss in this threat. We all agree this police action was justified. But the larger worries about what we're doing to our own rights, I felt was worth discussing.:cool:

[Toadborg]

Though some of our rights may be eroded the extra powers given to the police, judiciary etc are unlikely to be used on the majority but on the minority of immigrants, Asians and asylum seekers who can be picked on without offending the bulk of the electorate........

[Clandestine]

Perhaps, but just remember how a substantial number of normal mainstream Americans were falsely accused by the state during the McCarthy era. Once the floodgates are open controlling how far things can go and to how great an extent our leaders may abuse their power is an exercise in swimming against the raging current.

Especially since we can all see how willing the mjority is to believe whatever the papers say.

[morrocan roll]

Originally posted by Toadborg
[B minority of immigrants, Asians and asylum seekers who can be picked on without offending the bulk of the electorate........ [/B]sorry toad but reality check.... do you ever go out and drink and dance and eat and fight and shag with "bulk of the electorate?" i have been doing all my life in many areas and still do and you know what... they dont give a shit about this particular problem compared with their every day problems of feeding and clothing a family etc. those who do talk about this topic don't do it in quite the wat you would be suggesting i'm afraid.
i've always been the first to hold my hands up and say that i am an uneducated man compared to most of you young people on here but... those who have a deep political understanding and insight tend to work in the political arena... and look what happens then! not very in touch with the streets and the houses occupants. reality check over. thanks toad.

[Clandestine]

Perhaps you dont have the educational qualifications MR, but im sure you could open a few eyes regarding the extent to which those eager to abuse power are resident within the system. Im sure youve seen firsthand how little the establishment cares about the welfare of the general public when they are given carte blanche to exert whatever controls or restrictions they wish without question.

[morrocan roll]

Originally posted by Clandestine
Perhaps you dont have the educational qualifications MR, but im sure you could open a few eyes regarding the extent to which those eager to abuse power are resident within the system. clandestine, one thing i do believe i have seen and am well qaulified to say loud and clear; the system will do whatever it has to do. it will create, destroy, lie, cheat, confuse and inflict.
wether that is your favoured political sytem or place. the prison system. the police. the nhs. the banks. the insurance companies. the music industry. gangster land. the motor trade. the w.r.v.s.
the world is on fire and most people don't know or will very cleverly avoid the truth. when we celebrated the mileenium oh how pissed and confident i felt...that was another world. most people are clinging to it some fucking how.
the system, or the powers that be, wherever your standing, will do whatever it deems it has to do and the players on stage are forever changing.

[Clandestine]

I thought youd be happy to share your view on that matter. Id only add the point that only the headlining actors change, those who hold much of the real systemic power (security services, military infrastructure, intelligence agencies, Whitehall, etc..) remain administration after administration and will (as you say) do whatever it will take to ensure that they retain or expand their power and influence.

[morrocan roll]

Originally posted by Clandestine
I thought youd be happy to share your view on that matter. Id only add the point that only the headlining actors change, those who hold much of the real systemic power (security services, military infrastructure, intelligence agencies, Whitehall, etc..) remain administration after administration and will (as you say) do whatever it will take to ensure that they retain or expand their power and influence. the crowd scenes are always played by cash in the hand fodder.
we're fucked then?

[Balddog]

Originally posted by Toadborg


I think the anti-terrorist bill does represent a decrease in the civil liberties of British citizens.

The govt can now legally lock you up indefinately without trial if you are suspected of terrorism, this is quite a significant cjange in our legal system don't you think?

Who mentioned the anti-terrorist bill? This thread has so far been about a police raid on a mosque, something that would have been completely valid years ago.

I very much disagree with the erosion of our liberties in the vain attempt to fight terrorism but this particular issue has nothing to do with that.

[Aladdin]

I must say I can't see what the problem is so long as the police have acted with reason- and I think it's safe to say they did.

There is no much more of an issue to search a mosque than other places. If those men are really criminals who were using the mosque as their centre of operations, then I'm sure every Muslim will be glad that the mosque has been cleared of unholy individuals committing unholy actions in what is a sacred place to them.

[morrocan roll]

the old bill have raided the homes and churches of protestant and catolic clergy and locked them up for being pervs and/or (in ireland) terrorist offences. they have raided insurance companies.
they have raided my fucking house! thats what coppers are paid to do. so much liberty in this land, confused with liberalism and political correctness that i could get away with all kinds of things when i lived on the wrong side of the law. fuck me it must be a doddle now! "ooooh, don't lock burgkars up". oooooh, dont lock that poedaphile up, he's famous". not yet but not far off.

[monocrat]

Originally posted by Man Of Kent
You know, during WW2 most of the population had very few civil rights.

So the government didn't treat people failry during WW2?

[Whowhere]

You're trying to suggest the government wans't being FAIR when it raided the mosque???
LMFAO.
Would it have been fair if they turned around just before entering and said "fuck it, this isn't fair, I'm off home". Then 15 days later 150,000 people in London are dead because the people in the Mosque successfully managed to pollute the water supply with a biological agent? Does that sound fair to you?

Instead of letting your heart bleed for scum like this who have to suffer an hour long interrogation in a police station, think about what might happen to the 60 million people living in this country if we suddenly decide that people like that are above the law because they are Muslim and cry out "you're infringing my civil liberties" if a police officer so much as looks at one.

[pnjsurferpoet]

My feeling is if a religious organization becomes extremist and calls for death to citizens...they're just playing on the laws that protect religious freedom and freedom of speech. In this case the government action was long over due. Look at the people who came out of that mosque. The shoe bomber, another the US is holding in relation to the 911 attacks...he was trying to learn how to fly a airliner but wasn't interested in learning how to land it.