Palestine OR Isreal.

[pnjsurferpoet]

There's been a lot of talk about Palestinians on the site. I'd like to discussion the idea that there's a lot of Arabs that don't just want a Palestine...they want there to be no Isreal.

Right now the economy of the entire area is a mess. And where are the protests against suicide bombers. Not for the sake of Isreal but because the Palestinians. They are letting their kids be used by Saddam, Iran and Syria for political purposes.

Logically because of the much higher birth rate of the Palestinians, to believe that Isreal wouldn't want a Palestine is crazy. If Isreal is to be a Jewish state, a Palestine THAT RESPECTS ISREAL'S RIGHT TO EXIST, would be good for Isreal. And if all of these Arab countries were so concerned for the Palestinians, why don't they invest in the region? Saudi Arabia invested over $700 million in America last year.

Why can't Saudi Arabia go to Isreal and say we're going to build this factory in the West Bank to provide this good to Isreal, Jordan and whoever else. And Isreal can have access to it anytime to see that whatever this factory is producing is non-lethal. Wouldn't that be a start to a Palestine? And good jobs for Arabs in an Arab area? That's just one productive idea. Right now the only jobs Arabs are providing to the Palestinians is suicide bombing. Kinda hard to build a life on death.

[Dear Wendy]

Sad but true: most of the arab world (if not it all), view the Palestinians as the dregs of the arabic people, and use the Palestinians as their political weapon against Israel.
Doesn't seem to bother them to integrate the palestinian refugees which they have, into their society. Neither did they seem to bothered once they had control over Gaza and the Westbank, to hand it over to the Palestinians.

[Greenhat]

The assumption is that they want a Palestine. The leadership of the Arab world wants neither.

[pnjsurferpoet]

That was interesting Jac. Greenhat, I'd like to hear more.

[Clandestine]

Ah yes and youve shown us all over time just how much value you place in what the Arab leaders of the world want as an indicator of what should nevertheless be done on our part! lol.

[pnjsurferpoet]

"us vs youve. " Did you just admit to not being an American Clandestine? Your words. My conclusion.

[Aladdin]

I think he might have been referring to Greenhat vs the other members of this forum.

[pnjsurferpoet]

O.K. Thanks Alladin.

[Clandestine]

pnj, Greeny and I as diametric opponents go way back before you ever showed up. That is whom my comment was addressed to. Go back to sleep please.

[Greenhat]

Consider the history of the region. If the Arab leaders of the region were interested in providing the Palestinians with a homeland, they could have done it multiple times over. They haven't. Not Egypt, Syria, Jordan, Saudi Arabia, or Lebanon. They could even have done it in some of the space that is currently called the occupied territories by negotiating directly with Israel for the return of that land and then giving it to the Palestinians.

None of that has happened. As a matter of fact, the Palestinians have been thrown out of some of those countries above.

Now, what is the point to all that? Simple actually. The Palestinians are a tool used by the Arab leadership to maintain focus on Israel as a foe instead of those same leaders. Those leaders want the current situation to exist, and should Israel disappear, they will want the Palestinians to disappear as well. Simply to maintain the status quo and avoid having the "touble-makers" incite revolution in their countries.

[pnjsurferpoet]

Greenhat I am blown away. I never heard that but it fits in with what they did with the US and the reason behind the WTC attack. By encouraging hatred of us they took the spotlight off of the corrupt few who run their countries. I really learned something and gained insight from your post :)

[Aladdin]

Originally posted by Greenhat
Consider the history of the region. If the Arab leaders of the region were interested in providing the Palestinians with a homeland, they could have done it multiple times over. They haven't. Not Egypt, Syria, Jordan, Saudi Arabia, or Lebanon. They could even have done it in some of the space that is currently called the occupied territories by negotiating directly with Israel for the return of that land and then giving it to the Palestinians.

None of that has happened. As a matter of fact, the Palestinians have been thrown out of some of those countries above.

Now, what is the point to all that? Simple actually. The Palestinians are a tool used by the Arab leadership to maintain focus on Israel as a foe instead of those same leaders. Those leaders want the current situation to exist, and should Israel disappear, they will want the Palestinians to disappear as well. Simply to maintain the status quo and avoid having the "touble-makers" incite revolution in their countries.

If you really think any Arab nation would be able to negotiate the return of a square inch of land by Israel for the creation of a Palestinian nation then you're rather naive. Let alone the occupied territories, Israel still refuses to return the Golan Heights or the so-called buffer zones it nicked despite continuous efforts and pleas not only by the nations concerned but by the whole international community.

The fact is that the current government of Israel is not interested in negotiations because they don't have any intention of allowing the creation of a Palestinian State, however small. This is the reason why illegal settlements keep growing and growing like the malign tumors they are over more and more areas of the occupied territories, driven by the zionist belief that the whole of Palestine belongs to the Jewish race by Divine fucking Right.

[pnjsurferpoet]

Alladin. In order to have a Jewish state...given the high birth rate of the Palestinians, it is to Isreal's benefit to have a Palestinian state provided: it's not a haven for terrorists who want to destroy Isreal.

Regardless of settlements, there will be more Arabs in Isreal than Jews. So a peaceful Palestine is a good thing. And if it's peaceful...maybe Palestinians can start enjoying a higher standard of living.

[Aladdin]

And most people share your view, including many Israeli citizens. However extremists are becoming more vocal and prominent; a recent opinion poll conducted by an Israeli media organisation concluded that as many as 47% of Israelis would now like to see the Palestinians permanently expulsed from the region and the land kept as part of Israel.

[pnjsurferpoet]

They're crazy. Explosives have miniturized and no country could defend an onslaught of people who were made into terrorists. Isreal has many different opinions. Check out the Labor Party and Perez.

[Aladdin]

Israel's Labour party have always been more open to negotiations. Sadly Sharon seems on course for another victory.

[Clandestine]

Greenhat, all of what you said is true factually, there is no dispute there. However, simply because the Arab leadership has not assumed any tangible responsibility (up until the proposal put forward by Egypt and backed by several Arab governments at any rate), this still doesn't abrogate the imperitive that exists to see a Palestinian state created.

Certainly the Bush administration for all its talk of a road map is unlikely to be an agent of change in the region apart from blowing up random Arab countries.

pnj, yes, I have much more faith in the potential for a resolution to this overly longrunning conflict if Labour gains the majority. Only when Israel is prepared to respect the UN resolutions with full compliance can they ever hope to attain the moral high ground that they want in dealing with non-cooperative elements within the Palestinian ranks.

[pnjsurferpoet]

OMG They agreed with me.

I don't know how to handle positivity towards me. :cool:

[Greenhat]

It's more than not assuming responsibility. Arab leadership has and will actively manipulate the situation to keep a Palestinian state from existing if at all possible. They won't say so publicly, but that is what they do. Actions speak louder than words, and their actions speak volumes.

[DinkyDau]

The Arabs don't like the palestinians they just use them as proxy terrorists against Israel. That's why the Pals never get any serious hardware.

Just about every Arab state that has taken Palestinians have thrown them out usually after shooting the crap out of them.

Jordan is part of the old palestine and Jordan in the late 60's massacred thousand before chucking the evil bunch of shits out.

[Clandestine]

So now every last Palestinian is evil? What does that then say about all us Americans or Brits who are making war all over the globe eh? or how bout them evil Israelis who rocket and shoot innocent women and children? Or any number of nationalities whose governments do evil in the world? :rolleyes:

[DinkyDau]

nobody, apart from bloody do gooder leftwingers, like the Palestinians

[Clandestine]

Didnt realise that caring for people was so objectionable. I suppose youd prefer a world where noone gave a damn about anything or anyone and took every opportunity to harm as many others as possible? :eek2:

What a great future we'll have adhering to that brand of political thinking! :rolleyes:

[DinkyDau]

If you find it acceptable to support a people who send male and female suicide bombers to kill unarmed jewish women and children and routinely kill their own people by hanging from lamp posts, after torture, who are suspected of collaboration (no trial in court for them) then so be it.

I on the other hand find this behaviour disgusting and inhumane as AI have.

If you care so much about them instead of gobbing off on a computer (middle class are we ?) bugger of over there and help them.

[Dear Wendy]

Originally posted by DinkyDau


If you care so much about them instead of gobbing off on a computer (middle class are we ?) bugger of over there and help them.

Clandestine doesn't do experience and real-life, he does the lip (or should I say typing?) action...

[Man Of Kent]

Originally posted by DinkyDau
If you find it acceptable to support a people who send male and female suicide bombers to kill unarmed jewish women and children and routinely kill their own people by hanging from lamp posts, after torture, who are suspected of collaboration (no trial in court for them) then so be it.

Are you aware of what the various "resistance" fighters accross Europe did during and after WW2. Those allegations could equally be levelled against them you know...

If you care so much about them instead of gobbing off on a computer (middle class are we ?) bugger of over there and help them.

So, if you have a computer and support the Palestinains in their fight for rights, you must be middle class?

But obviously not if you have a computer but don't support their rights?

[Globe]

Originally posted by Jacqueline the Ripper


Clandestine doesn't do experience and real-life, he does the lip (or should I say typing?) action...

:eek:

[Globe]

Originally posted by Aladdin
... Israel still refuses to return the Golan Heights or the so-called buffer zones it nicked ...

My memory fails me. :confused:

Who was it - exactly - that started that war, which brought about the capture of those territories?

Such a lesson there... Bungle up your attempt, then go to court to get back what you lost through incompetence. Must be the leftist way... ;) NEVER responsible for ones own actions...

[DinkyDau]

Are you aware of what the various "resistance" fighters accross Europe did during and after WW2. Those allegations could equally be levelled against them you know

Yes I'm well aware. But we are talking about now not 50 odd years ago.

So, if you have a computer and support the Palestinains in their fight for rights, you must be middle class?

No not really, what I should have said was, stop gobbing off in the comfort of your nice little home far from the reality of it all.

[Globe]

Originally posted by DinkyDau


Yes I'm well aware. But we are talking about now not 50 odd years ago...

So... are we to blindly accept that everything which transpired prior to your birth is irrelevent? If it happened before the advent of the internet, it isn't "real"?

Reality check.

By your "reasoning", to those born tomorrow, YOU are irrelevent.

Remember that trite little truism concerning "those who ignore history are doomed to repeat it"? You are well upon your way to proving it.

WTC, Acts I & II, the Cole, and an endless stream of other events could be described (by some) as the actions of "resistance fighters". If you think that "resistence fighters are "irrelevant" or "inconsequential", then you are doomed to the just reward of your individual ignorance.

[Clandestine]

No Jacq, actually I do reality instead of the "Jewish lives are the only lives that matter" fantasy world you seem to inhabit.

Talk to me of the justice in apache helicopter attack, tanks, shooting with military assault rifles of women and children that number into the hundreds if not thousands for random handfuls of civilians who they hit back in retribution. Seems like the kind of thing done by Nazis to towns and villages that showed resistance in WWII (since WWII analogies seem to be your preference).

I think you must be terrorified that Labour would roll back the settlements and honour the UN resolutions of complete pullback. God forbid anyone should have to be the first to stop the cycle of violence especially poor hated Israel. The littany my dear demeans Israel by always adopting the victim role. Perhaps pro-active obligations have been shelved for too long and its time to return to some visionary action from Israel.

For your info, despite my criticism of current Israeli politics in line with current US politics, I would prefer to see Israel flourish in peace alongside a flourishing Palestine and we arent getting any nearer as long as bullets fly and people are besieged.

[Aladdin]

Originally posted by DinkyDau
Jordan is part of the old palestine and Jordan in the late 60's massacred thousand before chucking the evil bunch of shits out.

I recommend you tone down your fucking racist shit if you want to stick around in here. Although I suspect trolling is what you have in mind.

Tosser.

[Greenhat]

Originally posted by Aladdin


I recommend you tone down your fucking racist shit if you want to stick around in here. Although I suspect trolling is what you have in mind.

Tosser.

Racism? How can you be racist against your own race? And the comment she made does fit exactly what the Jordanian gov't felt about the Palestinians.

[DinkyDau]

Originally posted by Aladdin


I recommend you tone down your fucking racist shit if you want to stick around in here. Although I suspect trolling is what you have in mind.

Tosser.

You are a mouthy little cretin are you not

Nothing racist in what I've posted except in the twisted minds of the rabid politically correct morons

aladdin bet you aren't such a gobby twat in real life when you haven't got a computer between you and who you gob off at.........prick

[Dear Wendy]

Originally posted by Clandestine
No Jacq, actually I do reality instead of the "Jewish lives are the only lives that matter" fantasy world you seem to inhabit.

Talk to me of the justice in apache helicopter attack, tanks, shooting with military assault rifles of women and children that number into the hundreds if not thousands for random handfuls of civilians who they hit back in retribution. Seems like the kind of thing done by Nazis to towns and villages that showed resistance in WWII (since WWII analogies seem to be your preference).

I wonder if you'd have the nerve to make that comparison in front of a holocaust survivor. I wonder if you'd really believe your own words when talking to someone who has seen people getting slaughtered for what they were. Not what they had done.
You fucking well know, that the situations can't be compared, and if you don't, then I feel extremly sorry for you.
I bet you don't even have the capacity to understand the consequences of your own words.

Have I ever, even just once, expressed any joy by the death of innocent Palestinians? I dare you to find a quote of me saying that. You simply won't find it.
I don't envy them at all, but neither can I or will I find understandment for some of the Palestinians actions, and ongoing support for those actions.
It's fucking sick to see them making up a model of a bomb site, making as authentic as possible models of blown up babies covered in blood, and seeing people actually standing in line to view such a thing.
Israel staying passive, won't by any means stop that behaviour. Only lead those same people to think that they'll achieve their goal, and continue.
And I, at least, won't let that happen. The people fighting to keep Israel alive, won't have done so, to later acceptingly be defeated.

I think you must be terrorified that Labour would roll back the settlements and honour the UN resolutions of complete pullback. God forbid anyone should have to be the first to stop the cycle of violence especially poor hated Israel. The littany my dear demeans Israel by always adopting the victim role. Perhaps pro-active obligations have been shelved for too long and its time to return to some visionary action from Israel.

You fucking don't get it. This isn't about blind faith. This is simply about who can make it work. Unlike you, I fucking don't care if it'll be someone from Avoda, Likud, Shas, Meretz etc. to bring calmness over the country. As long as it is done, and is done correctly.
If you wan't to have your say count for anything (other than mindless crap), then immigrate and put your vote in the box.

For your info, despite my criticism of current Israeli politics in line with current US politics, I would prefer to see Israel flourish in peace alongside a flourishing Palestine and we arent getting any nearer as long as bullets fly and people are besieged.

And you think that I prefer to see the fightings, fear and chaos...?
Grow up!

[DinkyDau]

Hey GreenHat, you know me, we've both worked similar place in the 80's :) SEAsia.....now, where is Walter Schumate when you need him ;) :D ;)

[Aladdin]

Originally posted by DinkyDau


You are a mouthy little cretin are you not

Nothing racist in what I've posted except in the twisted minds of the rabid politically correct morons

aladdin bet you aren't such a gobby twat in real life when you haven't got a computer between you and who you gob off at.........prick

Let me see...

You talked about Palestinian refugees [men, women and children fleeing war] being shot and kicked out of Jordan and then called them "evil bunch of shits". I don’t know if you genuinely believe that every single Palestinian is born with an "evil" gene, that 7-year-old girls (or 25 year old men for that matter) that are from Palestine are evil. Either way it sounds like a pretty racist statement to me. If you still have trouble understanding this concept, try changing "Palestinians" for "blacks" or "Jews".



If you find it acceptable to support a people who send male and female suicide bombers to kill unarmed Jewish women and children and routinely kill their own people by hanging from lamp posts, after torture, who are suspected of collaboration (no trial in court for them) then so be it.

I on the other hand find this behaviour disgusting and inhumane as AI have.


So do you find acceptable to "support a people" who sends soldiers to shoot dead 10 year-old children? Or indiscriminately fires missiles from a helicopter gunship at a crowd as innocent as those Israeli citizens purely for revenge? Or shoot at ambulance crews to stop them from attending the injured? Or rips vines from the ground simply for the pleasure of it? Or restricts water supply and movement within their own land and make day-to-day living conditions hell?

Yet I don't go about calling the Israelis "an evil bunch of shits". I can difference between the actions of a government and the general population.

So stop your "politically correct" shite talk and spend some time reading the news.

[Man Of Kent]

Originally posted by DinkyDau
Yes I'm well aware. But we are talking about now not 50 odd years ago.

So?

Don't we still laud the resistance fighters as heroes who played a major part in the liberation of Europe, or the fight against the tyrannical Nazi regime?

That they did this 50 years ago is irrelevant, they were standing up for their rights, and they did some pretty dodgy things to their own countrymen. In fact, should you visit France you will still find some people who are shunned because they, or their parents collaborated.

[pnjsurferpoet]

The problem right now for the Palestinians is this: Because of the suicide bombers, enough people in Isreal and the United States are convinced that many Arabs, Hamas, in the Middle East want an end to Isreal and a Palestinian state.


Now Arafat said he'd negotiate with, not his exact words, but a Labor type government in Isreal. Meantime, Hamas is doing everyting it can to ensure Isreal keeps someone like Sharon in power. That's the problem.

[Aladdin]

True. The Labour party has said that if it wins the election it will start immediate negotiations with the Palestinian Authority to secure and end of hostilities in return for a full withdrawal of troops and a review of the illegal settlements. Obviously things would have to progress further in the future, but it'd be a good start.

Sharon (who sadly looks like winning the forthcoming election) will keep the drums of war and the military response as the only way of "negotiation" with the Palestinians. Which suits Hamas just fine. Isn't it funny how the two depend on each other for survival?


edited for grammar

[pnjsurferpoet]

It is ironic Alladin and scary. Honestly, I think the violence in Palestine and Isreal will continue. How do we get back to moderation when the driving forces for both peoples is the extremes? I don't have an answer, just a thought. If two peoples fight fire with fire...don't both get burned?

[Clandestine]

Yes they do pnj, which is what my somewhat non-pc comparsion above was driving at.

While hawks rule the day violence will only increase globally. In the case of Israel you would have thought that the voting public would have seen by now that the tete a tete hasnt and cannot bring security nor peace. Sadly they apparently havent learned yet and will only doom themselves to a continued cycle of violence and mutual retribution.

All the more reason I argue so vociferously for my compatriots to work as actively and as widely as possible to muzzle and leash our own rabid leaders and their advisors before we end locked in a permanent state of paranoia that dwarfs what we have seen since 9/11.

[Dear Wendy]

Originally posted by Clandestine

In the case of Israel you would have thought that the voting public would have seen by now that the tete a tete hasnt and cannot bring security nor peace. Sadly they apparently havent learned yet and will only doom themselves to a continued cycle of violence and mutual retribution.


The voting Israeli public has seen and experienced that sacrificing themselves, hasn't brought peace. Staying passive has only brought even more violence on behalf of the Palestinian terrorists.
Do the keywords, Barak- Camp David 2000, say anything to you? Or maybe Dolfinarium and Sbarro Pizza?

As you think that you're so wise, and all-knowing, would you then care to explain me, how come the most calm period Israel has had, was during Bibi Netanyahu's leadership? Should I remind you, that he is a Likud member?

Care to explain me, how all that fits to your above statement?

[Clandestine]

Well as much as anyone can speculate on the dynamics of any given history survey I would have to say that Netanyahu began with the ground layed by Rabin and Peres which had made enormous strides in the right direction. Interestingly though that that was ended by an Israeli assassins bullet!

Add to that the fact that then President Clinton took Palestinian grievances more seriously than the preceeding and certainly the subsequent Bush administrations.

Be that as it may, what you refer to as the longest period of peace was quickly shattered when Israeli authorities announced their intention to extend Jewish settlements into Palestinian East Jerusalem. So who's fault was it that this ceasefire broke down? :rolleyes:

[DinkyDau]

Funny isn't it, the ONLY country NOT to kick out the Palestinians is.......wait for it...........ISRAEL

aladdin, how tall are you ?

[pnjsurferpoet]

Sharon feels the EU's viewpoint regarding negotiations isn't relevant because they don't recognize that many in the Arab world don't want an Isreal at all. That was on the news today.

[Clandestine]

Well we've seen over the past few years just how much a contribution to peace Mr. Sharon has made. I dont put any stock in what that man says. He himself should have long ago been dragged off in chains by the international community as a war criminal for his role in sanctioning the massacre of thousands of women and children in Shabrah and Shatillah.

[DinkyDau]

Sharon did not order the killings in those camps Hobeika ordered
the killings at Sabra and Chatilla to make Israel look bad, so Syria could control Lebanon. The only reason why the Christians went along with Hobeika's orders, was to avenge the thousands of Christians, who were killed by the PLO in Damour Lebanon and because the Lebanese Christian President Gamayel was
just killed by the PLO.

2nd, in 1985, the Syrian backed Amals Shiites, attacked the same Sabra camp and killed 650 Arabs. Ofcourse when Arabs kill each other, no one cares.
What Hatem documents in his book. Sharon told Hobeika, only to go after the armed PLO gunman in Sabra. Sharon made very clear to Hobeika, not to target any civilians. Hobeika agreed to the orders. Then Hobeika gave his own orders to his men. Kill anyone they see in Sabra. Hobeika did this, to make Israel look bad, so Syria could control Lebanon.
If the Arabs are so concerned about the people killed in Sabra and Chatilla, why did Syria and Lebanon protect the person who ordered the killings. (Elie Hobeika). Why didn't Syria or Lebanon prosecute Hobeika. Maybe they were
worried he might tell the truth. Which is, Hobeika under orders from Assad was responsible. Hobeika and his people are responsible for the people who were killed. Ariel Sharon had nothing to do with what happened. What you had in
Sabra and Chatilla was Arabs killing Arabs. Sound familiar.

[DinkyDau]

Examples of how Arab Dictatorships and Muslim Countries react to violence. When the PLO tried this tactic of riots and violence against King Hussein in 1970. Unlike Israel, Hussein used full force against the PLO Terror. In one week, 20,000 Arabs killed each other.
1 million Muslims kill each other in the Iran Iraq War.
1 and half million Black Christians massacred in Sudan, by the Arabs in North Sudan.
In Indonesia, 300,000 East Timories murdered by Indonesia.
Assad Butchers 22,000 of his own people in Hama Syria in 1982.
Thousands of tourists massacred in Egypt since 1992.
125,000 Afghanistans kill each other since 1989
100,000 Algerians have butchered each other since 1992.
150,000 Lebanese kill each other in there 15 year civil war.
Saddam gasses and kills 200,000 Kurds.Pakistan kills 1 million Bangladeshi muslims in 1971.
The PLO kills thousands of Christian Lebanese in Damour Lebanon in 1976. Syria, Assad in 1980, Jails 600 opposition forces. 6 months later, he tells them, they could all leave there Jail cells. As they leave the Jails, Assad has his military massacre all 600 people.
During the 8-year war between Iran and Iraq, Iran sent children
(holding tickets to Muslim Paradise) running across minefields to clear the way for the Iranian soldiers.

The Arab nations and Arafat in particular cynically use their own
civilians as human shields by putting children, women and unarmed men in harms' way.
They deliberately enlisted them to become involuntary extensions of their planned violence, especially when the televised war' shows children and women as victims and martyrs.

Within the 52-year conflict between the Arab nations and Israel,
documented history indicates that civilians were consistently used by the Arabs in various ways to advance the war goals of the Arab nations. The use of civilian Human Shields was fairly common during the six wars initiated by the Arab nations against Israel. Israel reacts, only after it has been attacked by Arab and Iranian killers. Why is it that the PLO or other terrorist groups, who hide and fire from civilian areas are never blamed? Did I
forget to mention, an Egyptian pilot crashes a plane and kills 216 people in 1999.

What a lovely bunch of people, you support them Aladdin
:rolleyes:

[Clandestine]

Certainly Hobeika's role should also be judged as should the role of the phalangists who carried out the atrocities. Nevertheless, the political planning that preceeded the massacres were the purview of Sharon in his role as Defence Minister. He is complicit in these crimes and has to date not been tried.

Cloud the issue with other guilty parties, it doesnt negate the fact that Sharon himself should be in chains.

[Aladdin]

Originally posted by DinkyDau
Sharon did not order the killings in those camps Hobeika ordered
the killings at Sabra and Chatilla to make Israel look bad, so Syria could control Lebanon. The only reason why the Christians went along with Hobeika's orders, was to avenge the thousands of Christians, who were killed by the PLO in Damour Lebanon and because the Lebanese Christian President Gamayel was
just killed by the PLO.

2nd, in 1985, the Syrian backed Amals Shiites, attacked the same Sabra camp and killed 650 Arabs. Ofcourse when Arabs kill each other, no one cares.
What Hatem documents in his book. Sharon told Hobeika, only to go after the armed PLO gunman in Sabra. Sharon made very clear to Hobeika, not to target any civilians. Hobeika agreed to the orders. Then Hobeika gave his own orders to his men. Kill anyone they see in Sabra. Hobeika did this, to make Israel look bad, so Syria could control Lebanon.
If the Arabs are so concerned about the people killed in Sabra and Chatilla, why did Syria and Lebanon protect the person who ordered the killings. (Elie Hobeika). Why didn't Syria or Lebanon prosecute Hobeika. Maybe they were
worried he might tell the truth. Which is, Hobeika under orders from Assad was responsible. Hobeika and his people are responsible for the people who were killed. Ariel Sharon had nothing to do with what happened. What you had in
Sabra and Chatilla was Arabs killing Arabs. Sound familiar.

I don't know why I bother replying since you are clearly an Israeli government cheerleader who would not see anything wrong if Sharon boiled Palestinian babies alive for fun (at the end of the day Palestinians are all "an evil bunch of shits" eh?). But let me put something straight.

Sharon is guilty as hell of the refugee camp massacres. During the siege the Israeli army kept a total blockade of the refugee camps. No one could get in or out. Sharon himself was there supervising the blockade and on the afternoon of 16 September 1982 about 150 LF fighters armed to the teeth were allowed by Sharon's forces to enter the camps. They were left in peace to calmly massacre between 850 and 2,000 people, mostly women, children and the elderly, and then they were left out. Do you think Sharon perhaps thought they were going for a picnic with all those assault rifles and hacking knives?

That the evil murderer is still free, let alone the Prime Minister of Israel, is simply unbelievable. You might as well make Osama bin Laden Prime Minister of Saudi Arabia, and roll the red carpet on Washington DC airport as he visits the US on official business.

Here are a couple of links for your amusement. More information is available if you care to do a search or two. But that might destroy the illusion, so maybe you shouldn't...

link (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/1779713.stm)
another (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/1975849.stm)

[DinkyDau]

Aladdin I don't know why I bother replying
neither do I, you are obviously a Palestinian terrorist cheerleader
:p with no concern for the thousands of jewish women and children killed by Palestinians.

I'll say it again the only country that hasn't kicked these people out is Israel which is more than can be said for the Arab countries, can't cope with the truth can you ?

[Clandestine]

No of course they havent kicked them out. Those who arent Israeli citizens already by original UN mandate have been conveniently herded into walled in concentration camps created by Sharon and easily rocket bombed from the air or bulldozed or shot or blown away with tanks. Sharon has his firing range and live targets to practice on, why export them?

[Aladdin]

Besides Israel doesn't bother 'kicking out' anybody. They've always have found it easier to shoot them.

That's why 2 million people had to get the hell out of their own land in the first place. To avoid death by the occupying army.

Contrary to you and other posters who were around a few months back (sopite, reverse... perhaps they ring a bell?) I am one to condemn terrorist actions and atrocities on all sides, including Palestinian bombers. So spare me the bollocks about not caring about the "thousands" of women and children killed by Palestinians.

Incidentally, since there are 3 Palestinian casualties for every Israeli, I presume you don't care about the many more thousands of women and children killed by the Israeli Defence Force... but that is old news.

[DinkyDau]

concentration camps

utter bollocks

Aladdin :p

[pnjsurferpoet]

Does anyone feel that after the war with Iraq, the area might become more peaceful because Saddam won't be giving out money to suicide bombers?

Will Iraq's defeat in turn scare Syria into not endorsing Hamas in Lebanon?

Will it make the US push for a Palestinian state in 2005 more realistic?

Right now Hamas has ensured Sharon will win the election. It's what they wanted.

[Clandestine]

Nice excuse to blame Hamas when Hamas isnt voting in the Israeli elections. People get the government they deserve if they are stupid enough to keep voting for it.

[Dear Wendy]

Originally posted by Clandestine
Nice excuse to blame Hamas when Hamas isnt voting in the Israeli elections. People get the government they deserve if they are stupid enough to keep voting for it.

You're a lost case.

[Toadborg]

Originally posted by DinkyDau

I'll say it again the only country that hasn't kicked these people out is Israel which is more than can be said for the Arab countries, can't cope with the truth can you ?

Why do you persist with an irrelevant argument, it gets you nowhere.

How other countries have treated the Palestinians does not mitgate for the Israeli method, stick to the argument........

[Clandestine]

LOL. ah yes, the all knowing Jacq who is as far from assuming any role in adult life that requires seeing more than extremes, I take that as a compliemnt.

Someday my young zealot, youll learn just how full of grey areas both life and the political arena truly are.

[DinkyDau]

Why do you persist with an irrelevant argument, it gets you nowhere.
What you mean is that I'm right and what I've said is true and as it doesn't fit in with what you want. you'll ignore it.

How other countries have treated the Palestinians does not mitgate for the Israeli method, stick to the argument........
Maybe not....but by the same token I don't see any left wingers slagging off the Arab countries that have massacred Palestinians, again it doesn't fit in so ignore it.

Face it no country likes or wants the Palestinian problem.

[Clandestine]

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Quote:

Why do you persist with an irrelevant argument, it gets you nowhere.
What you mean is that I'm right and what I've said is true and as it doesn't fit in with what you want. you'll ignore it.
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No, thats your penchant Dinky along with flaming rhetoric when your hate is rejected by those who wish to improve this planet rather than bomb it into oblivion.

As for condemning Arab nations, fine lets condemn them. That doesnt change the fact that it was from the land of Palestine that they were originally ousted in 1948 and it remains and will remain an issue for resolution there.

How bout we come and forcibly throw you out of your house and off your land and then tell you to go back and get help from wherever your ancestors happened to come from originally? the principle is the same and I doubt youd be so happy to be on the recieving end as much as you cheer those who dish it out.

[Toadborg]

Maybe nobody bangs on about Arab countries massacring Palestinians because THE DEBATE IS ABOUT ISRAEL AND PALESTINE.

Also I know for a fact that most 'left-wingers' on here have condemned the Arab governments.........

Saying you are right doesn't make it true, why is your argument concerning Arab governments relevant to this debate about Israel and Palestine?

[Aladdin]

Originally posted by DinkyDau
Face it no country likes or wants the Palestinian problem.

The above sentence had a familiar but very unpleasant ring to it. I couldn't work out where or when I had heard a similar phrase before, or from whom. Then I decided to substitute 'Palestinian' with 'Jewish' and the penny dropped.

Funny isn't?

[Clandestine]

My goodness don't use that terminology youll just be labelled anti-semitic for daring to remind people of how similarly the rhetoric employed today is compared to that voiced by a certain other dispicable group in the past!

[morrocan roll]

Originally posted by DinkyDau



aladdin bet you aren't such a gobby twat in real life when you haven't got a computer between you and who you gob off at.........prick i take this mean that you would physicaly attack aladin rather than talk. sounds familiar.

[Aladdin]

Never! These people don't believe in force to solve situations.
:lol:

[DinkyDau]

why don't you supporters of Palestinian terrorism sod off over there and help them, 'cus you sure aren't doing anything for them here. Moaning on a BB is about your limit. But let me guess you gutless fucks wouldn't dare go anywhere like that would you ...all mouth.

[Clandestine]

Why dont you as a supporter for Israeli state terrorism go over and join the IDF? You arent much use in any constructive capacity in the world anyways.

[DinkyDau]

Unlike you, a gutless whining fuck, that's more or less what I did do some years ago.........you can talk the talk but when it comes to walking the walk..........tosser

[Clandestine]

Such a hateful and spite ridden individual, and verbally abusive! :rolleyes:

Methinks we've seen yet another return of Thanatos in disguise.

Why are you wasting time talking on these boards when there are clearly so many arabs left to gun down? :eek2:

[morrocan roll]

dinkydoo... all mouth and no trousers.

[Aladdin]

I thought Thanatos was Globe... but that's only my impression anyway.

Greenhat referred to Pinkyfoul as a 'she'... maybe the two have met before?

Or it could be Reverse or any of the others who appeared in September or October, posted some pro-Sharon anti-Arab racist garbage for a while and eventually gave up.

In any case this would appear to be another ex-US Army person who now feels somehow empty of a purpose but believes their years shooting people and holding an assault rifle have given them some sort of moral high ground. He/she no doubt believes in their right to carry a firearm everywhere "because I'm not willing to be a victim". I wonder if this people would dare as much as go to the grocery store without their semi-automatic.

"Supporters of Palestinian terrorism"... Dear dear dear :lol: :rolleyes:

We could ask Dinky for his/her opinion on the ethics of shooting at kids throwing stones or attacking ambulance crews. However the last time we did that test a few posters were left in an awkward position and stopped posting shortly afterwards. I don't think this one would provide a more straight answer, and chasing someone every day to answer a question can be rather tiresome.

[DinkyDau]

Oh this is fun, you pair of tosers trying to guess who/what/where

I'm British, never been to the US

When the palestinian terrorists stop using the ambulances the IDF will stop shooting them.

I can't think of anything lower in the food chain than a Palestinian terrorist, the only good thing about their female suicide bombers is there's one less breeder about.

night night ladies

[Balddog]

This thread is so depressing to read...I think it fully illustrates just why this issue has gone on for so long and why peace will be so hard to attain.

Very sad indeed.

[Aladdin]

I know what you mean. When you get racist individuals like Dinky here calling an entire people "evil bunch of shits" you know there is little hope of peace.

[Balddog]

Originally posted by Aladdin
I know what you mean. When you get racist individuals like Dinky here calling an entire people "evil bunch of shits" you know there is little hope of peace.

Your statement is a perfect example of what i meant :(

Everyone is so incredibly polarised. Nothing ever shifts anyone, nobody is willing to compromise, even in thought. How we can expect the israelis and palestinians to compromise in action is quite beyond me.

[Clandestine]

Indeed. Well if Dinkypoo is British than I can guess what political ilk he associates with. BNP anyone? :eek2:

[Aladdin]

Well perhaps it'd be best if this thread is laid to rest now as there is little hope of any more rational discussion coming out of it.