Jamie Bulger [Archive] - TheSite.org boards

Whowhere

10-01-2001, 07:07 PM

I accept that you yourself are a mother, I myself am not excusing what they did, but simply throwing an objective light on the subject.
But do you seriously think that a ten year old child is capable of planning and executing a murder?

Here is what probably happened. They wal into the supermarket and start talking to Jamie. They then start daring each other to hurt him in various ways, like all playground bullies do. They pinch him, or flick his ears. Something that at the time they have no idea of what it will lead to. They contiunally egg each other on and one of them dares the other to lead Jamie away. So they do.
They take him to the train track, because at their age a train track is a "forbidden playground". They have no idea that it is dangerous, nor do they care. The egging on in the playground would have stopped by now with some intervention by another child or a teacher. But no one intervenes so they carry on, "upping" the dares until poor Jamie is dead. I'd like to talk to aybody who can prove that they set out from the very beginning with the intention of killing the poor youngster. It is sad game that unfortunately went way too far, and i hope is never again repeated.
As for the anonyminity, Scotland is still governed by British laws and will be unable to print their new identities. It would also be pretty difficult for foreigners to find out as there are only a handful of people who actually know Jamie's killer's new identities. All of these people will probably have to sign some sort of legally binding document forbidding them to reveal any information.
The only problem (apart from wanting to kill themselves) I can see for them in the future is finding employment. For another 2 years at least they will have to admit to any criminal convictions when applying for a job...could be a potential problem.

------------------
Join the Army and travel the world, meet new and exciting people and kill them.

Carriage Return

10-01-2001, 07:59 PM

j9 was right, the decision does not cover Scotland. They have a separate legal system

dirty_harry

10-01-2001, 09:22 PM

in case u haven't read exactly what they did they covered his face in paint, chucked rocks in his face as he stood there, the actually twisted his penis till it bled, hit and poked him with sticks. They knew what they were doing.

while they have been in their institution they have been lazing around playing snooker and video games, a better life than what they had at home. One of them pleaded to stay inside cos he liked it, the other wants out and the first ones changed his mind too.

i think it was venables who just received some diana award for a refermed personality and BTW neither of the 2 have had any contact since conviction and they will never know each other again.

I think they should be released as i have great faith in the british violence system and i am confident they will be discovered.

dirty_harry

10-01-2001, 10:45 PM

yeah, if u cant bring urself to read my exempt u wont want to read the whole thing, it made me sick and thats something.

Spirit II

10-01-2001, 11:03 PM

MY opinion on this well,

harry i felt the same as you only i wasnt physically sick,

what these boys did was disgusting and i feel myself 99% sure that thier identities will be found out,

whowhere you go on about corporal punishment and all that bollox well in my opinion these two lads are evil!!

No amount of daring or bullying would ever have made me do something like that EVER!!

At ten years old you know what is right or wrong and i do know half the stuff harry said is right, it makes me so fucking angry thinking about how that poor little innocent boy felt having all that done to him, and grrrr those two evil cunts that killed him should be paying fo what theyve done, not stting about playing computer games and saying they wanna stay in where ever the fuck they are cos its good, it doesnt sound like theyve been punished to me!!

If anyone ever did something like that to one of my family id do everything i could to find out who they were and if it meant going to another country by god id do it, so i could find the little shits!!

------------------
MTS ^5

Whowhere

10-01-2001, 11:05 PM

Why are we even discussing this?
If they really are reformed characters anyway, they'll be dead in ten years from an overdose due to their massive guilt.
I know it seems like a reversal, but my sociology teacher always told me to look at things objectively. But as for this, and after Harry's info, I cant even remain objective. They should have anonyminity, just so they dont sue the government for trauma, but I wont cry when they are found out and lynched for crimes against humanity.

Sorry J9 for appearing insensitive, I was only 10 at the time so I wasnt aware of the full details about what they did. this would be a good point for my "corporal&capital" punishment topic.....

dirty_harry

10-01-2001, 11:16 PM

and that little boy was quite an angel, he looked such a sweet innocent kid, one who would have got loads of A-levels, the pride of his family, but no, kicked, punched, beaten and hit with rockes before he even went to school for the first time, all he missed out on. what kind of person would have no mercy? I admit when i lose my temper and hit someone in the face i feel sorry for it afterwards.

One kid i smacked hard was one in my year (yr 10 at the time), all he did was shove me around for a laugh but after i hit him he was on the ground crying and i couldn't help but feel sorry for him cos i know how he feels, ive been in his position many times and i didn't do anything to provoke it all those times, and i ended up on the floor surrounded. I just felt sorry for the person i hit.

as for the bulger killers, they'll get found out, and j9, maybe i need to adjust your cerebral cortex with my screwdriver, anoniminity?

my fuckin spotty arse.!!

Girl-From-Mars

11-01-2001, 01:24 AM

im not aware of exactly went on as i was only 10 (the same age as them. even thats something that mildly disgusts me, that im the same age as them and they could be in my year at school). 10 year olds do know right from wrong, its bloody obvious that torturing a small child and then painfully killing him is wrong!!! anyone knows that, however young. i think they should be imprisoned for longer. i read articles in the paper lately about how theyve been allowed an education, and enjoyment such as video games and computers and stuff?!?! do you think they ever thought about the chances and opportunities they stole from jamie bulger when he was two years old when they were there no doubt moaning about maths or something, or enjoying themselves? that doesnt sound like punishment to me. they should be MADE to understand how awful this is and have extensive psychiatry, not to help THEM but to MAKE them realise how much torture they inflicted on this poor child and his family and how the victim's family must be thinking and feeling to hear that they are to be let out and protected for the rest of their lives after everything they did to their son!! then, and ONLY then, should they be allowed even the merest chance to attempt a life in a normal society.

as a sympathetic and empathetic human being, i dont think that these child murderers should be allowed anonymity. they should be publicly declared and then made to regret what they did every minute of their lives when they are hiding in shops from hoards of people trying to kill them in retribution. my reasonable side says that they DO need protecting, for this very reason. they are humans too. it just seems so disgusting they should be allowed to rob a small innocent child of all his opportunities in life and inflict such pain to friends and relatives, and that they should have their human rights revoked for this. i can understand and see the benefits and problems with each option. it is a very difficult problem to solve. how are the general public going to feel and react when they find out their taxes are not going to anythign worthwhile, such as education or health, but to sending these criminals off for a protected life in the sun?

------------------
If you don't know where you're going, you'll probably end up somewhere else.

Alan london

11-01-2001, 02:39 AM

I know that it is an emotive topic, and I have my own opinions....

However, the only thing I would like to say on the subject is to provide a quote:

"The quality of a society is measured by its treatment of others, whether they be right or wrong, good or evil"
Can't remember who said it - but I will take the credit (given half the chance <IMG alt="image" SRC="http://www.thesite.org/ubb/wink.gif"> )

In other words, two wrongs don't make a right and the idea of an eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth should be cast aside.

In a civilised society, if we persecute those who have comitted against us, then we are no better than them. Where would we end up...?

Forgive, but don't forget.

To put it into perspective, 50 million people were killed in the Second World War. Many of these people were tortured and made to suffer in horrendous conditions. But society has moved on and whilst it is not in the uppermost parts of our minds, it will never be forgotten.

This is not meant to be a comparison in any way, and I appreciate that Jamie Bulgar's parents wouldn't exactly accept such a comment as comforting. I am simply offering an alternative consideration.

------------------
HAPPY 2001 !
Alan London

11-01-2001, 10:56 AM

IMHO providing the murderers anonimity is protecting the friends and family of James Bulger from a murder trial. That is why I think it is important.

j9

------------------
I had a life once, but I stopped feeding it so one day it just walked away.

MTS ^5 ;)

Spirit II

11-01-2001, 04:20 PM

I feel sorry for the family's of those two boys because if ppl do find out who the boys are,

if i was a mother though and my child did something like that id be so ashamed and disgraced that i had brought such an evil little fucker in to the world i wouldnt want anything to do with them ever again!

------------------
MTS ^5

Girl-From-Mars

11-01-2001, 04:58 PM

Originally posted by j9:
IMHO providing the murderers anonimity is protecting the friends and family of James Bulger from a murder trial. That is why I think it is important.

j9

i agree with you on that point j9. jamie bulger's dad has gone on record saying he'll kill the boys who murdered his son a number of times hasnt he? he has a wife and children so a murder trial for him obviously wouldnt be a good thing...

------------------
If you don't know where you're going, you'll probably end up somewhere else.

whizzygirl

12-01-2001, 09:56 PM

if anyone laid a finger on a child of mine i would kill them - no two ways about it. and then i'd stand up in court and tell them i wasn't sorry.
i know that sounds harsh and awful but its how strongly i feel about people commit such crimes. the boys identities should be released and they should have to live with what they've done for the rest of their lives - its what they deserve. i don't believe that crap about they didn't know what they were doing coz they were only 10 or whatever. when i was 10 i never would have killed anyone coz i wasn't a disturbed freak. i just feel sorry for bulger's poor parents, they can't ever escape it so why should the killers?

------------------
i'm not denying that women are stupid; God made us to match the men.

Carriage Return

14-01-2001, 12:26 PM

Originally posted by whizzygirl:
if anyone laid a finger on a child of mine i would kill them - no two ways about it. and then i'd stand up in court and tell them i wasn't sorry.

And their parents would kill you. And probably the child in question because it was (in their eyes) all the child's fault.

Whowhere

14-01-2001, 10:00 PM

Originally posted by Carriage Return:
And their parents would kill you. And probably the child in question because it was (in their eyes) all the child's fault.

In light of the recent news, I have serious doubts about whether or not they should ever be released. At least on of them is still mentally disturbed and should go the way of the dodo.

J@ke

16-01-2001, 01:15 PM

Originally posted by Alan london:
In other words, two wrongs don't make a right and the idea of an eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth should be cast aside.

In a civilised society, if we persecute those who have comitted against us, then we are no better than them. Where would we end up...?

Forgive, but don't forget.

Sorry but this is is simplistic, humanist nonsense.
Firstly, it's not a case of an "an eye for an eye" etc. That means society would kill murderers in the same way as they murdered, rapists would be raped themselves etc (as was done in biblical days hence the expression). We don't don't punish criminals like that.

Criminals know exactly the consequences of their actions but are prepared to take the risk. They deserve all they get. So it is foolish to say "we are no better than them" when we hand out the punishments that they know they will receive for breaking the law.

It took the killers of Jamie just minutes to coerce him away from the shopping centre so previous arguments that the boys initially just bullied him for a while before deciding on leading him away are a little thin ... within minutes, they had identified their prey and tempted him away. This was premeditated. They crushed his body with rocks, beat him about with sticks, forced back his foreskin until it bled and then put his body on a railway line to be torn in half so as to give the impression that he was killed by a train. They knew that what they were doing was a crime - and even tried to fabricate the evidence.

Yes, 10 year olds can be as wicked as any adult. What they lacked was the finesse required to get away with the crime.

17-01-2001, 09:53 AM

Jake, I at the very least disagree with part of what you're saying - though you may have said it in terms of this context only. I have stayed away from posting on this topic as much as I can because it is not really one that can easily be argued about rationally or sensibly - morals, evil, crime and punishment etc. are very complex issues and most of what has been expressed here is no more than opinion - hardly surprising, and why I haven't tried to argue either way. Incidentally it is an interesting thought / point to notice that people feel more horrified due to the fact that it is children who did it; the whole 'corrupted innocence and purity' thing.

The Bulger incident is extremely unique, horrific and bewildering, and therefore it is unwise to make generalisations from this type of crime (different to what we would normally define as crime imo, too bizarre and extreme) to other more mundane forms. Crime is in fact an issue for society, rooted in society and in the way it organises itself. That event was outside that context, so hence I feel it is wrong to generalise here. That is however what you do.

Criminals know exactly the consequences of their actions but are prepared to take the risk. They deserve all they get.

As I said, apologies if you meant it only in this context (but then why state it there - highly debatable that even if evil did the entities under discussion here consider the consequences in that sense), but it appears to indicate a more deeply / widely held opinion. Forgive me, but this is a vast (and naive) oversimplification of the issues. As I have already said, crime is part of every society (not something that simply happens around it) and is something which is caused by the problems in society. Violence and murder, burglary, shoplifting, drugs usage, car theft, are all rooted in the problems of our society. Poverty, breakdown in communities, people's disenfranchisement from society and the democratic processes that govern it, lack of education and lack of expectations are things that I believe almost everybody (everyone?) who studies the issues agrees are the principal, if not the only, causes of crime.

Note that I have used the term 'society' here to include crime and criminals, because I define a society to include everyone that interacts together and lives alongside each other. If you prefer to define society by those who live 'within the law' (almost nobody, if you include traffic offences etc. lol) and hence exclude criminals, the points made here still stand. In this case society not only still contains the problems which cause crime, but also excludes and targets the symptoms - the people who are the victims of society's failure.

I have said all this, though slightly off topic, because it worries me that people perceive the issues to be those of how to 'scare off' people from crime with more barbaric forms of punishment. Don't attack the symptoms; attack the causes and work to change our society.

If there's one approach that will never solve anything, it's that of fear of pain or revenge. That technique has (for an obvious example) been employed by many branches of Christianity throughout the ages; people have never sinned any differently or any less than they do now. In fact that approach tends to create more problems by making people's lives harder and allowing the underlying problems to go untreated, or worsen. It's no coincidence that in better off areas, with higher standards of living and education, crime rates are much lower (and I'm not talking about the posh end of the chattering classes 'better off' lifestyle there).

Like I said - attack the most damaged sections of society, and you alienate the people while allowing the problems to recur there and elsewhere. To reduce crime, work to reform and improve society. This is of course a huge task and a complicated one. The government has only a proportion of the power in our society. The media, and increasingly business, play probably just as big a role. Pity they're only out for themselves.

J@ke

17-01-2001, 04:05 PM

JB - Thanks for taking the time to give such a considered reply. <IMG alt="image" SRC="http://www.thesite.org/ubb/smile.gif">

I apologise for my generalisation but I felt Alan London's post was simplistic too. He said "In a civilised society, if we persecute those who have comitted against us, then we are no better than them". I have no criminal record for murder, theft, rape etc. So, why am I no better than the criminal? Sure, I might overstep society's boundaries from time to time but I quickly readjust to fall back within the lines again because I realise my obligations to that society.

Certainly, the Bulger killers are a special instance. It was their lack of maturity that made them fail to realise the repercussions of their actions but don't be mislead into thinking that they did not understand what they were doing. Transcripts of their interrogation reveal that they were completely aware of their actions - even if they did blame each other for goading them on. Now, I'm not advocating locking them up for life or anything. I'd love to see them rehabilitated successfully but human nature has a rather discouraging habit of letting us down ...

I think your ideals and arguments are very noble but I am not so sure that they are achievable. There will always be a percentage who will commit crimes regardless of society's reforms and I believe that the majority should be spared the actions of the criminal minority by whatever means possible.

17-01-2001, 10:09 PM

Two things:

1. You wilfully misunderstand what Alan said <IMG alt="image" SRC="http://www.thesite.org/ubb/smile.gif">...

I apologise for my generalisation but I felt Alan London's post was simplistic too. He said "In a civilised society, if we persecute those who have comitted against us, then we are no better than them". I have no criminal record for murder, theft, rape etc. So, why am I no better than the criminal?

What he said is "if we persecute them" then we're no better, and in many ways he is right. Simply hurting someone who hurt you doesn't make it better - and won't stop them doing it again. The prisons with the best results (low reoffence rate etc) are almost always the ones which attempt to rehabilitate and change the offenders rather than those which seek to punish and oppress them. Also by simply persecuting offenders you fail to stop others offending - and hence are partially reponsible for their crime too.

On a different note, how is someone "better" than someone else - imo a dangerous concept when stated without a context (ie. as an absolute). Question is... if you had lived their life, would you have done any better? Sometimes yes, sometimes no: offenders tend to have a lot of pain and problems of their own. Upbringing and experience as a child makes or breaks you, and most criminals are in some way broken or damaged, or living broken lives.

2.

There will always be a percentage who will commit crimes regardless of society's reforms and I believe that the majority should be spared the actions of the criminal minority by whatever means possible.

What a defeatist, cop-out attitude and statement. So the difference between say, 500 and 10000 violent crimes a year in England wouldn't matter to you? If the attitude is, "Lock them away, punish or kill them, keep them away from us. They are fundamentally different to us and we don't want to know about or see them," (spared by whatever means possible) then what may I ask will make people tackle the problems? People have to confront the malaise in our society and the pain. You can't stop it by removing the symptoms. If you tried to lock up permanently everyone who committed a crime, you would:
a) Probably convict a lot of innocent ppl and create an attitude of intolerance to ppl's situations.
b) Break up a lot of families.
c) Reduce the work force.
d) Have to spend ridiculous amounts of money.
e) Fail to solve the problem: if the problems are still there, new people will be damaged or corrupted by our society, and it will all recur.

Also what would you do with "hidden" problems such as violence in the home? For one thing, violence of this kind is almost always perpetrated by victims of violence or neglect who can't cope with helping themselves to be happier, let alone learning what it is to love and live non-violently. This mostly goes undetected or ignored, especially by traditional "lock 'em up" programs.

In the end, our society creates its own problems, destroying lives as it does so, whether they be those of the victim or perpetrator (likely also a victim). Wealthier members of our society, who typically commit less crime, in general also condone the problems of society by living lives and following ideas that widen the poverty gap, strengthening the (relative) rich while disenfranchising the (relative) poor. They take the small localised view that because they do not 'commit crime' themselves, they are therefore completely blameless for the crime in our society. It is not so. Everybody and everything is interlinked, and to deny that you have an effect on crime (and poverty etc) by what you say, the beliefs you hold and the way you live is either stupid, naive, or an inability to cope with the difficulties and unpleasantness.

Perhaps it is unfair to criticise people for just wanting what our society also promotes: Personal wealth and gratification, to be 'better' than others (ie. beating others through the jobs you get, the place you live etc.), and simply 'to be allowed to live your life how you want to'. But this is at the core of our society's sickness - people believe that it is both morally right and our natural right, to be self serving and greedy (for what else did I just describe?), and that little else matters. I am not saying simply 'people believe [on a conscious level] that it is morally right to be greedy' - because that is not what I said, merely the logical conclusion from the way they live, and believe they should live, their lives. Yet another illustration of what is wrong with our society, n'est ce pas?

It may be natural to be greedy and self serving - it works well in a chaotic genetic evolutionary situation - but it is not for the best for the human race or for a majority of individuals within any society. Humanity does not evolve in this traditional form of evolution anymore, and soon may be able to choose how to evolve genetically. I pray that before technology gets that far, people do start to live and believe differently, or we could see the biggest divisions created in society since slavery. I really wish that people were able to step back and realise that what is good for their own self-gratification will not often help others, or their children's children's children (and so forth).

This is one reason why I think people should in the end prefer the Labour party to the Tories, especially at the moment, with Hague casting around desperately for pegs such as race issues on which to hang his coat. Labour do at least realise that these problems are not as simple as punishing criminals, they do realise it is not simply an issue of wealth redistribution, and they do recognise and put forward the view that everything in society is related. Their main failure has been to find a solution to how to deal with these problems. But then wtf would you do lol? <IMG alt="image" SRC="http://www.thesite.org/ubb/smile.gif"> They have limited resources, are constrained by their position (e.g. criticise the media's position, that of wealthy people or that of big business and they will lose their funding and support), and the problems are huge. Noone has found a solution anywhere yet, but at least they are beginning to realise there may be one to look for.

(I should go onto a new thread really shouldn't I lol).

[This message has been edited by JB (edited 17-01-2001).]

J@ke

18-01-2001, 11:26 AM

Hi JB,
I suppose that you and I just have different opinions (and I would be the first to admit that mine are probably wrong - your posts always seem very cool and sensible) but I am not convinced that the majority of criminals commit crimes due to their background. Perhaps my views will change over time.
Warm regards.
J@ke

LUKA

18-01-2001, 10:43 PM

Originally posted by J@ke:
I am not convinced that the majority of criminals commit crimes due to their background.
J@ke

I would have to agree here with J@ke, There is a common myth that many child molester were themselves abused as children, are emotionally disturbed, and that they are not responsible for their behaviour.

It is documented by professionals on this subject that yes these sick bastards are emotionally disturbed, but at no time are they rendered incapable of assuming responsibility for thier actions.

life is all about cause and effect, every action one takes has an equally powerfull effect, and that is what seperates, honest, caring law abiding citizens from scum who destroy lives.

The only time when I truly believe that someone is incapable of seperating right from wrong, is serious mental illnesses, I have spent time in hospital with people with these problems, and yes it's scary when they coldly look you in the eye and tell you they are going to kill you. But all you can do is keep telling yourself that it's just the illness, getting control of what is naturally a nice person. <IMG alt="image" SRC="http://www.thesite.org/ubb/frown.gif">

whenever this topic of crime and punishment or child abuse comes up, it's always about what the offender deserves, everyone forgets, there is always a victim <IMG alt="image" SRC="http://www.thesite.org/ubb/frown.gif"> <tear> aren't they more important than the offender ???.

Luka

------------------
The river is wide and oh so deep. I've been walking around in tears, No answers arethere to get. Cause between this world and eternity there is a face I hope to see

19-01-2001, 12:41 AM

Sorry LUKA, the reason I tend to focus on offenders is because if you stop offences, you stop people becoming victims.

As for your other point, I never said they bore no responsibility for their actions - everybody can always choose, unless as you say they are insane. BUT. People are imperfect and make mistakes in the best of circumstances. Everyone loses control when they shouldn't at times in a variety of situations.

As you acknowledge, it is generally known that criminals are emotionally disturbed in some way. They are therefore LESS responsible (not irresponsible) for their actions, and if they had led happier, more supported lives, things would have been far less likely to lead to their offence(s). YES they gave / give in to some sick, twisted and damaged part of their pysche, NO this was not inevitable and predetermined. Hence I was not absolving them from blame, merely saying that through a wider, deeper approach to crime, punishment and society, it is possible to vastly reduce these crimes.

Your comment on what seperates law abiding people and criminals is also too simplistic and comes from experience of a particular type of crime and abuse, which is understandable. There are always shades of grey and crime is no exception. There is such a huge number of people who, through the way they live their lives, cause pain and suffering to those around them, yet never do anything that causes them to be classified as criminal. Much treatment of women (sexual, physical and emotional) which even 20 years ago was ignored by mainstream society is now becoming recognised as criminal (e.g. marital rape) but is still largely a suppressed issue.

Similarly violence and drunkeness and neglect within homes and families is a problem we are only beginning to scratch the surface of. I have seen people with good jobs who are well respected, who you then find out have beaten their wives and been left with emotionally damaged children - yet no one realised for years and years. But why did these things happen: because they had been emotionally damaged themselves, could not express their feelings or control their anger. With therapy and treatment I have also seen people learn to cope with their problems and become better people - but in a better society it would never have happened in the first place. These problems are addressable and widespread, and classifying people with problems simply as criminal and saying they are basically dishonest and uncaring will NOT stop their problems recurring with others in the long run.

Summa Dayze

15-03-2001, 08:18 AM

Im from Australia, doing my final year at school - YAY!...anyway, the Bulgar case is what i decided to base my issues talk on which adds to my end of year mark. This case really got to me. I actually cried. It's pure evil how someone can touture another innocent human being like that, it actually makes me ashamed to be apart of the same race. My sister is 10, and she knows how wrong that is. It makes me sick to know that these boys are even the same age as me...my generation...

it's just wrong to let them out, they have proven themselves unworthy of functioning in todays society, and our legal system needs to start focusing on protecting the innocent rather than the criminals!

This really gets to me, Jamie was robbed of his whole life, and now the killers are getting brand new lives...it makes no logical sense to me...

----------------
"Follow the summer along the coast and surf the waves to happiness!"

throbbing_python_of_love

11-04-2001, 08:41 AM

HANG THEM UNTIL THE ROPE ROTS!!!!!

Turtle

23-04-2001, 03:22 PM

Originally posted by Summa Dayze:
Im from Australia, doing my final year at school - YAY!...anyway, the Bulgar case is what i decided to base my issues talk on which adds to my end of year mark. This case really got to me. I actually cried. It's pure evil how someone can touture another innocent human being like that, it actually makes me ashamed to be apart of the same race. My sister is 10, and she knows how wrong that is. It makes me sick to know that these boys are even the same age as me...my generation...

it's just wrong to let them out, they have proven themselves unworthy of functioning in todays society, and our legal system needs to start focusing on protecting the innocent rather than the criminals!

This really gets to me, Jamie was robbed of his whole life, and now the killers are getting brand new lives...it makes no logical sense to me...

----------------
"Follow the summer along the coast and surf the waves to happiness!"

AUSSIE AUSSIE AUSSIE!!!!!!!!!!! and never shows up again <IMG alt="image" SRC="http://www.thesite.org/ubb/frown.gif">

------------------
Look into these tired eyes. See something you might recognise.

jeffrey

26-04-2001, 04:54 PM

I've just read in the paper that Jon Venables has been allowed to go and watch Man Utd play at Old Trafford. He's also been shopping at The Trafford Centre and Medowhall in Sheffield.

How wrong is this?! <IMG alt="image" SRC="http://www.thesite.org/ubb/mad.gif">

He got a Playstation 2 for Christmas!

Is this how we treat murderers in this country? What's next? Is Myra Hindley to go and meet Mickey Mouse on an all expenses paid trip to Florida? <IMG alt="image" SRC="http://www.thesite.org/ubb/mad.gif">

------------------
I am not Jesus, though I have the same initals.

charley

03-05-2001, 07:42 PM

well like others i wanted to stay out of this but i cant hold myself back any more. i guess im on both sides of teh arguement, but i had 2 do this for a skool project so im gonna wriet on here as well.
firstly yeh i reckon that teh press should reveal their identities, because i think the country has a right to know if their neighbour/boyfriend/employee/cabbie is a murderer. and even if their identities are not publically released, somebody somewhere would know who they are, so its only a matter of time b4 we all know anyway.
and i think 10 year olds are responsible for their actions. i mean most 5 year olds know not to beat a little kid to death, its basic common sense. if a kid doesnt know that at 10 years old then they never will. i mean yeh sure kids do things that they dont know better like i dunno breakin an orniment or summin, but if they dont feel guilty or sorry 4 it then there really is somethin wrong. and what sort of person could lead a normal adult life when they know that they robbed a two year old boy of his almost entire life? what sort of fairness do u call that? i know that life isnt fair but come on, at least be able to control some aspects of it.
someone said that they'll probly commit suicide within 10 years. i knwo it sounds inhumane to sauy this but good riddance in my opinion. there's no way that they are gonna turn out normal, and as nasty as thsi might sound i think its a case of re introducin teh death penalty, which is summin else i had 2 do an essay about once.
and also , if u think about it, its really sick that 10 year olds would actually plan out how they were going to do that. and i do seriously think that a 10 year old is able to plan and carry out a murder, yes. also most 10 year olds know that trainlines are dangerous, doh.
and dirty harry, i know many peopel didnt appreciate ure posts on here, but i actually did. i had know idea that that was what they did to him, and u say that what u wrote was only the outline, its sick. they are definatley evil and i hope that A) they are never released , B) they are released and commit suicide, or C) they are released and soon murdered.
and yeh there is the whoel for and against an eye for an eye a tooth for a tooth, and in some ways they are both right. but come on, revenge is a natural human emotion, and personally if i was jamies mum i would find those two lads and slowly beat the fuck out of them to make them go thru what they put my son thru. i wouldnt care about goin into reform, by the sounds of it those 2 lads had a wicked time in reform. and what sort of example does that set to other kids? now kids who hav shit lives can sit there and think "oh my life is shit, ill go out and murder some little kid so that i can go 2 a cool decent reform school with all wicked stuff", i mean it hardly gives kids a good influence or a good incentive not to commit crime in general.
and i know not to belive everythin u read in the sun, but i read that one opf them was stil really violent and heavily into sick pornography and drugs, and then theres peopel out there sayin that they are changed boys and desrve another chance. i'm all for forgive and forget, to a certain extent, but thats just fuckin ridiculous.
and i agree with j@ke, pretty much, he makes some v good points, even if i dont understand all of what he sed (my bad, not ures), and even if that does contradict my opinions, which i tend to do a lot anyway.
and as for blamin that on the chucky films, i cant work out where that idea came from. ive saw 3 out of teh 4 chuckie films (childs play) and i cant see hwo that would hav influenced them.
RE one f em goin 2 old trafford, well that just shows ow fuckin poxy and cotton wool "reform" really is dont it.
i could probly sit here all nite and write more and more and more, but im off coz i got coursework to do <IMG alt="image" SRC="http://www.thesite.org/ubb/frown.gif">. ill erm, add to this later...

DFC

15-06-2001, 12:35 AM

[QUOTE] Whilst I appreciate and share your repulsion towards this terrible crime, can you not appreciate that the language and sentiments that you use in response to it merely fuels negative response. Capital punishment is not an option in this instance therefore we have the option of rehabilitating these children (they probably do not feel that they require rehabilitation because of what was the norm in their lives), or tax payers can keep them in security. I personally would like to have faith that rehabilitation is preferable. Nobody can alter what has happened, no matter how much we wish and pray. Please let something good come out of this and let us all take this as a lesson to be better parents. Remember that no child is born evil, children follow by example!!!
My intention is not to offend, but opinion is my right.

amadee

15-06-2001, 05:12 PM

welcome to the site, stay a while, you'll find we're some nice people.

generally it's polite to post an introduction in the 'anything goes' forum, just say hello.

it's also polite to NOT drag up old topics (this one was from January!) Check the dates before you reply please.

------------------
An eye for an eye makes the world blind. (http://www.echoing.org/~a)

Skive'n'Dive

19-06-2001, 05:38 PM

Prison should priortise on rehabilitation, not punishment - we as human beings should want to rehabilitise people, on the believe that people can change.
The jamie bulger case is very difficult, because the thought of children killing a tolder makes people think these kids must have been possessed, or be pure evil.
Althought they were probably accountable for their actions, and deserve to be punished (and rehabilitised) people need to look at why such acts are happening now; people need to look at society - a murder is a result of something ultimately wrong in society. If anyone can relate to the kind of lifes the kids had, and their surroundings and family, you can see why there is such a problem with serious crime.
There will always be some evil individuals out there in this world. But at 10 years old were they evil or merely disturbed. I reckon they can be rehabilitated. You can be pretty sure they're never going to murder anyone agian.

How can anyone say that prison is like a holiday camp. Prison isn't only solitary confinement, prisoners would go even more insane. Young offenders especialy need to stimulate they're mind and be educated. It's all part of the rehabilitation process.

------------------
Forwards ever, Backwards never - Skive

Skive'n'Dive

19-06-2001, 05:44 PM

Originally posted by amadee:

it's also polite to NOT drag up old topics (this one was from January!) Check the dates before you reply please.

It may not be polite but since this case keeps popping up in the news and as they might be released in the near future I think it was worth dragging up.

MacKenZie

19-06-2001, 10:32 PM

Originally posted by Skive'n'Dive:
Prison should priortise on rehabilitation, not punishment - we as human beings should want to rehabilitise people, on the believe that people can change.

Excellent - I agree. But what do we do to those who cannot be rehabilitated?

---

"Sanity is statistical."

Skive'n'Dive

20-06-2001, 12:00 AM

Originally posted by MacKenZie:
Excellent - I agree. But what do we do to those who cannot be rehabilitated?

---

"Sanity is statistical."

We can only put our trust in people who are hopefully educated and responsible enough to make those decisions i.e the shrinks and judges involved.

To be honest I'm glad I don't have to make those decisions.

------------------
Forwards ever, Backwards never - Skive

charley

21-06-2001, 12:06 AM

Originally posted by amadee:
it's polite to post an introduction in the 'anything goes' forum, just say hello.
it's also polite to NOT drag up old topics (this one was from January!) Check the dates before you reply please.

ARRRRHGGGHHHHH!!!

alexanderlebbon

26-06-2001, 09:53 PM

This is the way i see it. The two killers were 10 at the time and it 8 years on. I think that in that time they have changed alot. How much have you changed from the age of 10 onwards. I know this doesnt change the fact that they killed a kid. If the 2 are knowen to the public we know what might happen- the deaths of the 2 killers. Already people have been hurt because people have mistaken the identities for someone else.

------------------
Suffering is everywhere. Don't think it isn't. So are miracles. Don't think they aren't.

Whowhere

27-06-2001, 11:24 PM

Whoever e-mailed me tellin me im a twat, fuck off

arrowsman

28-06-2001, 11:50 PM

Jamie Bulger was an innocent little 2yr old toddler when he was taken and brutally murdered by two 10yr old boys,boys which thankfully the minority for some strange reason stick up for. This minority make me so angry because most of them have never bothered to find out what really happened on that terrible day and yet shame James memory by saying that his killers have served their time and should now be left alone in secret silence. These boys knew exactly what they were doing,remember one confessed that they wanted to take a baby and kill it,also they tried to take a child before James but the mother saw them walking away with it and stopped them. At 1st they wanted to drown James in the canel but he was too scared to go to the edge so in anger they picked him up by his ankles and dropped him on his head,cutting it open with large swelling,to hide this they tied his hood of his coat tightly around his head,then they walked him anouther 2.5 miles beating him on the way to the spot where they murdered him( they lied to concerned adults on the way so that he would not be taken from them). At this spot they tortured this little 2yr old for an hour,they threw paint in his eyes and mouth,one of the boys said to James you"ve cut your head here"s a plaster, the plaster was a brick smashed at his head,James screamed and fell to the ground but the little soul got back up and each time he did they threw anouther brick at his head,blood was every where ,they punched and kicked him as hard as they could,the imprints of their shoes were left in his skin,they cut his penis off with a penknife and sharpened sticks to points getting dog shit on the ends and then shuvved them in his eyes and all the time little James was alive,finally they smashed a heavy metal bar over his head and then still alive they lay his body over the railtrack, some time through the night James died,the morning train cut his little body in two. There is no happy ending there never will be but justice for a little toddler would have been of some comfort to James parents,who got £7,500 for his slaughter. Thom and ven have not been punished really have they?,no punishment could ever be eqaull to what James went through can you even trie to guess what terror and fear he felt.The last i heard his killers are to be given new cars so that they don"t use public transport they don"t even have to buy them themselves with all the money that they were awarded (far far greater then £7,500).I hope that some of you will now understand why i am angry and yes i do hate Jamie Bulgers killers,all my feelings are for a little innocent child who should have been home watching cartoons but instead was going through hell.God bless you James.

Skive'n'Dive

29-06-2001, 12:13 AM

Originally posted by arrowsman:
Jamie Bulger was an innocent little 2yr old toddler when he was taken and brutally murdered by two 10yr old boys,boys which thankfully the minority for some strange reason stick up for.

It's not because we think they've served their sentance. They will be sentanced to a miserable life till htey die. I just want the most productive outcome which in my view is punishment and rehabilitation not just punishment and incarciration. Many ppl are blinded by the anger they feel towards the murderers. I myself find what they did totally disgusting but even if they stayed in prison longer they'd hjave to come out some time. And if it was say in 10 years time they wre freed what sort of ppl would they be. I don't think they'd be any better - probably be worse.

Revenge may be a good short term soloution that makes ppl feel better. But rehabilitaion is the intelligent long term soloution that will show that as human beings we should belief that ppl can change, especially when the cimminals are so young.

I don't believe that they are Evil just not right in the head, and fixing that is what rehabilitation is all about.

------------------
Forwards ever, Backwards never - Skive

monitor

29-06-2001, 03:28 AM

There is no question that what those 2 did was worse than evil.
But the real worry and disgrace comes from
the message britain sends out to the world,
sadly we have for some years now been governed by spineless wimps, and the social services being at the top of the spineless list.
Our over the top attitude towards protecting
childrens rights has somewhat back fired,
and has gotten us into a terrible mess,with
the enforcement of the caution system towards
our criminal youth, only could have from the begining lead to them being out of control.
Social services and other do good people that are involved in this eppic decision of
releasing these two monsters , will duck and hide when the shit hits the fan , and this proves to be yet another weak decision from
an already useless board of idiots.
How many times will you here britain going on about poor little childrens rights,and then follow it by doing something bloody stupid like releasing child killers, they send a dangerous message out to the youth,
they convince them that nasty adults cannot get away with mistreating them, but do not enforce that rule on the youth by letting them know that they to cannot get away with mistreating other children in the same way.
I refer to the recent capture of the killers of damilola tailer, I mean those boys did not learn through the chilhood grid, that attacking another child so serverely that he could die, the message wouldnt have got through because britain unfortunately has a time limit on discust and repulsion of past crimes, we as a society do not keep up the feelings of horror we get when we see a poor child cut in half by a train,we feel we could linch the little buggers at the time for doing such a crime but then years later the good old british forgivness creeps in, and it shows here by some of the replies posted.
Dont even bother to go down the road of a child of ten doesnt know right from wrong,
because years back even taking apples from a tree without asking would result in your father wacking the right from wrong into you.
and then you would get a quick course of i wont do that again, these of course would be the days when social services wouldnt call to take dad down the local nick for driving
some respect and good teaching into his son,
But of course since then people have over corrected there children and brought about over reactions from child protection authorites to the extent that it has had the oposite effect, a child now has only one thought while he is commiting offences , and that is if it goes wrong i will get ny caution and cuddle, then if I keep going eventualy i will be taken into care for more
cuddles.
I think britain now has become a traffic police state, and owning a car is far more a crime than injuring a member of the public with voilence, no amount of police money or time is spared on tracking down an honest working man using his vehicle to get to work
that has not been able to afford to renew his tax disk untill he gets paid at the end of the week, or the man that gets caught by the sneaky under cover copper in an umarked vehicle filming the moving traffic on a motorway, yet to get a camera put up in a dangerous council housing estate to stop muggings and rape or robbery is put on file and rejected by commities as too costly.
My impresion of our country is if theres no money in fines to be had, then dont over police it.
Anyway does anyone know the exact date for the release of damilolas killers , its got to be around about 8 years from now hasnt it?
ah well, it will give us all time to forgive them and say that they didnt know what they were doing, BUT REMEMBER NOW how well these little angels kept this horrible guilt to them selves for so long, and how they didnt confess to anyone while police were looking for the culprits all this time and , even on
police interviews they held up to questioning
like real hardened criminals.
EVERY DAY WE GET CLOSER TO THE CHILDREN OF THE DAMNED.

Girl-From-Mars

29-06-2001, 04:19 AM

arrowsman, you write your first post in an emotional way, as if you were actually there. you were not. all you know are the "facts" the newspapers decide to release to the public. i realise this is an emotive subject, but this is the politics forum, and debates are generally not held on emotions. you use words and phrases specifically designed to evoke an emotional response. which im sure everyone has already, knowing the basic outline of this murder and the nature of it.

also the way you format your paragraphs makes your long entries a little hard to read, maybe try pressing enter twice at the end of each paragraph to insert some "white space"? i find posts formatted like this a lot easier to read and absorb.

and welcome to thesite <IMG alt="image" SRC="http://www.thesite.org/ubb/smile.gif">

------------------
"That which does not kill us makes us stronger."
~ Nietzsche

Moderator

29-06-2001, 11:28 AM

Originally posted by monitor:
Anyway does anyone know the exact date for the release of damilolas killers , its got to be around about 8 years from now hasnt it?

How can someone have a release date before they've been tried, found guilty, and sentenced? It's a bit incoherent, your post.

arrowsman

29-06-2001, 07:06 PM

Girl-From-Mars your right i was not there but how i wish i had been,to have saved James would have been the sunlight in my life, i do not specifically designe my words to evoke an emotional response, they are from my heart. James death touched me deeply because at that time my 2nd son was 2yrs old also and putting him to bed each night i could not help but think of James. I am know 38yrs old with my 3rd son who recently turned 3. I hold him and kiss him and tell him that i love him, and i know how lucky i am. James parents with out a doubt felt the same way but them 10yr olds robbed them of all this,they live each day with the terrible thoughts of what their son went through, his fear, his pain , his death. Also i have heard some of the killers confession tapes so some of the "facts" that i typed are actually from their own mouths what i typed actually happened to little James.

Man Of Kent

29-06-2001, 08:39 PM

Originally posted by arrowsman:
Girl-From-Mars your right i was not there but how i wish i had been,to have saved James would have been the sunlight in my life, i do not specifically designe my words to evoke an emotional response, they are from my heart. James death touched me deeply because at that time my 2nd son was 2yrs old also and putting him to bed each night i could not help but think of James. I am know 38yrs old with my 3rd son who recently turned 3. I hold him and kiss him and tell him that i love him, and i know how lucky i am. James parents with out a doubt felt the same way but them 10yr olds robbed them of all this,they live each day with the terrible thoughts of what their son went through, his fear, his pain , his death. Also i have heard some of the killers confession tapes so some of the "facts" that i typed are actually from their own mouths what i typed actually happened to little James.

I also have a son about the same age as Jamie was, when he was butchered.

But you and I don't share views beyond that. I belive that to rehabilitate those boys serves more good that just locking them up and throwing away the key. I do believe that they have been released a couple of years too early, but they were always going to be released eventually.

Justice isn't about emotion, it should be calculated not retaliatory.

arrowsman

30-06-2001, 11:46 AM

[UOTE]

Justice isn't about emotion, it should be calculated not retaliatory.

Man of kent, unfortunatly that is the view of the justice system and the do-gooders. The emotions of the victims,and thier familys are never taken into account and yet it seems that the emotions of these killers was taken totally into view.

Spade

30-06-2001, 09:29 PM

What were your personal feelings at the time guys?
Not now that the whole thing has been played up by the media, what was it like when you first heard about it.
I was about 11 at the time. I was talking with Mum and she said "you came to me crying, you were ashamed that someone your age could do something so terriable. You knew that what they had done was the most vile thing and you hated them for it..."
My feelings haven't changed on this, at all...
Frankly they deserve no aid from the government and I welcome attempts to expose their identities. They should have to life with the consequences of their actions and not be allowed to hide.

But how did you guys feel at the time?

Spade

Man Of Kent

30-06-2001, 11:16 PM

Originally posted by arrowsman:
[UOTE]

Justice isn't about emotion, it should be calculated not retaliatory.

Man of kent, unfortunatly that is the view of the justice system and the do-gooders. The emotions of the victims,and thier familys are never taken into account and yet it seems that the emotions of these killers was taken totally into view.

What is wrong with wnating to do good? Don;t see that as an insult, I see that as something positive.

But you are wrong about me caring more about them than the Bulgers. I couldn't give a stuff about their hurt emotions. I hope they spend the rest of their natural lives looking over their shoulder waiting to be exposed. A living hell. Much worse than jail, because in this instance it is their own mind that will be their punishment.

As for hoping they get exposed, what will this achieve? Vigilante acts and not a good basis for justice. That is WHY we have courts, and laws etc.

My emotions haven't changed, I am still horrified by what they did. In fact more so, now I am a father. But I don't want them dead and I don;t want them exposed. I want them to live with themselves. To feel fear - every single day, for the rest of their lives.

arrowsman

01-07-2001, 08:37 PM

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Man Of Kent:
[B;. To feel fear - every single day, for the rest of their lives.

Man of kent,are you showing your emotions?, if so then i appluade you. This is more like it. We may differ in our views of continued punishment for the killers of James. Thuogh my view of life behind bars is pointless now at least you have shown to me that you are not one of those "10yr olds do not know what they are doing idiots" or "they have paid for their crime now every one should forgive them morons". If people could only close their eyes and really , and i mean REALLY picture the railway track and in their minds see two older boys slaughtering this little tottler, seeing in thier minds eye the true things that they did to him then things may , punishment wise been differant. Can you do it?.

arrowsman

01-07-2001, 08:59 PM

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Spade:
[B]What were your personal feelings at the time guys?

Well spade i was 29/30 at the time when James was murdered,we all read it in the papers and saw it on the news,everyone talked about it,but most people like my self did not know the true horror of james death at the hands of two 10yr olds. when it started to really hit home was in a way that i will not forget. On this day a short while after Thoms and Ven were charged with James murder i was working on a building site , their was around 8/10 of us tradesmen sitting in a room of a new house at lunch time laughing and joking, normal stuff when we got talking about James murder, we were all talking for awhile when suddenly one of the other fellows began to cry, we all fell silent, then we all rallied round him . When he stopped crying he began to tell us things that those bastards had done to James,things that most of us did not know, but know that i knew i could never look at them killers again with out hate.

Man Of Kent

01-07-2001, 11:11 PM

I wouldn't say that this was prompted by emotion, although I did cry last week at the BBC2 programme. And I am sure I will again tonight for the Panorama programme. I would be wary of things you are told by people not directly connected to the case. As I have said in other threads, people's hysteria will generate gory stories about these two just to make them sound worse than even they are.

I believe that the best punishment is best served by one's conscience, and one's mind. Far more effective than locking people up. If you make them a prisoner of their own mind then there can be NO escape. Ever.

I'm not religious but I would direct you to read Dante's 'Inferno', it describes hell and the levels of hell. Right at the end, the lowest (worst) level of hell is Judas, alying on his back looking up, eyes wide to picture the enormity of the crime he committed.

To live your life not knowing if the phone ringing of door knocking is someone coming to expose the true you must be a living hell. In this case justice is served.

------------------
"Her hair reminds me of a warm, safe place
Where, as a child I'd hide"

http://www.livejournal.com/~manofkent

arrowsman

02-07-2001, 10:28 PM

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Man Of Kent:
[B]
To live your life not knowing if the phone ringing of door knocking is someone coming to expose the true you must be a living hell. In this case justice is served.

Man of kent to go back to your 1st posting, i believe that your views are not
that far away from mine after all!. Panarama pissed me off, that American he not once said anything about poor James all he was concerned about was his "friend jon" and the figures that he had made for him holding them up like trophies forchrist sake,i thought that he was an utter bastard and his wife was pig ugley

M.C

24-05-2006, 08:53 PM

I have never even heard about this little guy or about this horrific act of violence until today. Probably because I was 13 at the time the accident happened, but now, at 26 with a 2.5 year old child of my own, I found it hard to control the tears from streaming down my face, as I read the details of Jamie's murder. Which now, I guess I wish I hadn't read, because even at my age, I've never heard of such malicious torture. I also work with children of all ages, and have extensive experience dealing with 10 year olds. There is absolutely no way, these two little boys, should be getting out of jail...ever. They knew what they were doing, obviously, because they talked about it prior, and attempted to take another little boy before Jamie. Kids are aware of a lot more things now a days, then they were several years ago. This is the problem with the world today. Do you honestly think either one of these boys, or I guess teenagers now, are going to go out into the world and make a positive difference?? Or do you think their "once" sick and twisted mind may return one day, to cause another henious crime? I'd rather just keep them locked up and not find out. We have enough criminals running free in the world, that don't have skeletons such as these in their closets, that I don't think we need these two freed.

This is so unbelievable...the justice system is damaged. And really needs to look at this a little harder, I don't care if your 10, 25, 50, or 85...murder is murder...heck, I don't even know what you'd call what these two did...I don't think there's a word to sum this up.

It seems inevitable that these two boys will get a "get out of jail" card, new names, some $ (which, hello, let's reward them for they're behavior), and get to start their lives over. Meanwhile, Jamie's family and friends get to live out the rest of their lives, having nightmarish flashbacks of the day their little angel was violently taken away from them.

Oh...I'm sure the other two will have flashbacks as well. I just hope that when they get out they get the chance to view all of these not so kind words that people have to say about them, and one day, if they make it that long, they may marry, and have a child...then their whole world will change, as they will now view it from the other side of the tracks.

I have absolutely no tolerance for crimes such as this, and obviously no compassion for these two boys. I'd like to see them live out the rest of their lives in away that they only wished it was them and not Jamie that horrible tragic day. Oh yeah...one more thing...Where in the world was the parental control and influence in these boys first 10 years??? I don't think a parent just overlooks certain behaviors that would lead your child to commit a crime such as this.

I feel for Jamie's family and friends, and pray for justice and God's healing onto them during this difficult time and always.