Corporal and capital punishment [Archive]

Jaloux

31-12-2000, 02:49 AM

Originally posted by Whowhere:
Why is it that criminals are being let off with light sentences which have no reflection upon their original crime? Why dont we treat criminals "like for like" by punishing them in a way that will deter them and others from commiting crimes?
I perosnally think that rapists and murderes should be hanged in public as an example to the rest of society, petty thieves should be "encouraged" not to thieve again and child molestors should have their genitals removed. Forget what human rights protestors say, I feel that as soon as these people committed their crime against humanity, any rights they have should be removed. Your views please.....

By punishing someone you often only get more hatred. And hatred does not make things better.
I believe humans are a bit like animals (yea yea, I know we are animals too <IMG alt="image" SRC="http://www.thesite.org/ubb/tongue.gif"> ) and if you come home discovering that your dog was chewing your shoes it would not realize why you were punishing it if you would decide to punish it at that time. You would need to find the root of the "crime" and solve it from there.

And what do you mean by "encouraging" thiefes not to committing their crime again? Want to beat them up, cut off a bodypart or..?
Many of them are stealing to get money to cost drugs, how could beating them up(or whatever you ment) make their addiction go away? Then there are people that steal to make a living.

On the other hand, I believe that life sentences are a waste of money. _IF the one is 100% guilty of murdering someone_ why not take their life instead of locking htem up and spending fortunes on waiting for them to pass away?

And since I'm kinda tired I wont say anything more... I'm not even going to read what I wrote so... <IMG alt="image" SRC="http://www.thesite.org/ubb/tongue.gif">

Enjoy the new year!

-Faf

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I fly like Wilma!!!

Whowhere

31-12-2000, 09:02 AM

Corporal punishment isnt meant to be liked or to be desirable. It is meant as a detterent.
Britain's crime rate at the moment is the highest in Western Europe and rapidly overtaking America's. Nottingham, the city I live in has the third highest crime rate in the country after London and Birmingham.
And as for people stealing for drugs, they are the worst kind, why should I, after spending time earning my wage, have it stolen by some stupid spaced out junkie? I dont care if they are helplessly addicted, it doesn't give them the right to steal someone else's money so they can get high. I'm not bothered about druggies, if they want to kill themselves then fine, I am bothered when what they do starts to affect the rest of society. The "encouragment" I was talking about would involve physical punishment, something that would leave a lasting reminder about why that person has been punished, for example the UAE's use of removing a thief's left hand. Im not talking about doing something as brutal, but something that will deter people from committing crime.

Jaloux

31-12-2000, 10:07 PM

I never said that I was happy about drug addicts stealing what I've earned. But if you were supposed to try to get them off the drugs would you start by using physical punishment?

I don't look at that as the right thing to do, you need to look at the whole picture, not only a part of it to solve problems.

Here in Iceland, and I know that it's not the only country, you would not solve the drug users stealing by getting them and beating the hell out of them. Who are the ones that actually get them into it? Those are the people that need to be caught. There are always people blind enough to go into stealing things worth alot more than the drugs they are stealing it for.
So why punish them for being desparate? I would rather take the big numbers off the streets and then start picking up the addicts, not the other way around.

I would not like everyone to see that I used to be an addict that stole because I didn't have any money. To bear it with me everywhere I'd go would get the people against me and would that be more fair if I had changed my mind and somehow be helped out of my hell?

-Faf

Monkey_Boy

01-01-2001, 05:30 AM

i'd just like to point out that if you reallywant to punish someone, u stick them in a tiny room with minimal fascilities necessary for life, boredom on top of more bordom, a daily wholesum meal of wheat and prtein crap, a constant risk of death and a fear every time you have a shower when you come out, your arse is going to be that much wider

if you're lucky

that's a punishment

give me the chair any day

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LIFE: Quite interesting in parts, but no substitute for the real thing

LUKA

01-01-2001, 07:38 PM

I for one am glad Capitol punishment has been signed away by Jack Straw http://www.lineone.net/newswire/cgi-bin/newswire.cgi/skynews/uk/story/1999/1/c--1999-1-27-1n3.html

after all sending another being to thier death under law amounts to legalised murder. noone has the right to take a life. But human nature and emotion will always want "eye for an eye" attitude. We should be mindful of the past and our rate of bad convictions.

What if we'd sent the Guildford 4 or the Birmingham 6 to death how would we have bought them back ? at least now they have the right to freedom. This is proved in the case of Dick Bently. http://www.lineone.net/newswire/cgi-bin/newswire.cgi/skynews/uk/story/1998/7/c--1998-7-30-3n9.html

Would you send everyone to the execution chamber ? would you only allow sane people mentally retarded people, or what about minors, like http://www.lineone.net/newswire/cgi-bin/newswire.cgi/skynews/uk/story/1999/9/c--1999-9-24-0n36.html

I personally can not condone the murder of another life, even if it's lawfull or unlawfull.

As far as I am concearned with the child abuser / rapists having their testicles removed, all well and good in theory ( I and many other friends I have who have also been abused agree that it's not the answer)but what about the sexual offenders who are women, what do you remove then ?. As Derby County has said they can be steralised by drugs and treated with drugs. But the standpoint I take along with most of my friends who've been at the hands of callous assholes, is lock them away from society for the rest of their natural life tp sit in their cell and think about what torture they have inflicted.

Natural life custodial sentences IMHO should be imposed on all serious crimes, murderers, sex offenders, serious violent crimes & repeated offenders.

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The river is wide and oh so deep. I've been walking around in tears, No answers arethere to get. Cause between this world and eternity there is a face I hope to see

Girl-From-Mars

01-01-2001, 08:13 PM

i agree with what you say luka about life sentences meaning life. you cant just let them out after like 10 years, thts not life. if theyve taken away someone else's life, or made it miserable and affecting them for their whole life by abusign them, then why should they be allowed to go back into society? they shoudl be locked up, and not have all the luxuries prisoners tend to do, solitary confinement would be a good thing coz then they would have chance to reflect on what they did, that would be a big punishment. but i think maybe talking to a counsellor about what theyve done can be good, it can make them realise the enormity of their crime, and while some people think its a waste of money on scum like that and stuff, it might actually punish them more.

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It's better to regret things you've done than things you haven't.

Whowhere

01-01-2001, 08:18 PM

Originally posted by LUKA:
I for one am glad Capitol punishment has been signed away by Jack Straw http://www.lineone.net/newswire/cgi-bin/newswire.cgi/skynews/uk/story/1999/1 /c--1999-1-27-1n3.html (http://www.lineone.net/newswire/cgi-bin/newswire.cgi/skynews/uk/story/1999/1/c--1999-1-27-1n3.html)

after all sending another being to thier death under law amounts to legalised murder. noone has the right to take a life. But human nature and emotion will always want "eye for an eye" attitude. We should be mindful of the past and our rate of bad convictions.

What if we'd sent the Guildford 4 or the Birmingham 6 to death how would we have bought them back ? at least now they have the right to freedom. This is proved in the case of Dick Bently. http://www.lineone.net/newswire/cgi-bin/newswire.cgi/skynews/uk/story/1998/7 /c--1998-7-30-3n9.html (http://www.lineone.net/newswire/cgi-bin/newswire.cgi/skynews/uk/story/1998/7/c--1998-7-30-3n9.html)

Would you send everyone to the execution chamber ? would you only allow sane people mentally retarded people, or what about minors, like http://www.lineone.net/newswire/cgi-bin/newswire.cgi/skynews/uk/story/1999/ 9/c--1999-9-24-0n36.html (http://www.lineone.net/newswire/cgi-bin/newswire.cgi/skynews/uk/story/1999/9/c--1999-9-24-0n36.html)

I personally can not condone the murder of another life, even if it's lawfull or unlawfull.

As far as I am concearned with the child abuser / rapists having their testicles removed, all well and good in theory ( I and many other friends I have who have also been abused agree that it's not the answer)but what about the sexual offenders who are women, what do you remove then ?. As Derby County has said they can be steralised by drugs and treated with drugs. But the standpoint I take along with most of my friends who've been at the hands of callous assholes, is lock them away from society for the rest of their natural life tp sit in their cell and think about what torture they have inflicted.

Natural life custodial sentences IMHO should be imposed on all serious crimes, murderers, sex offenders, serious violent crimes & repeated offenders.

You call it lawful murder. I call it justice. I feel that if a person knows that the worst punishment they will recieve is to sit in a prison cell, living off the state and recieving free meals and shelter then they will not be deterred. If they knew that their actions would carry the ultimate punishment then they would not carry out those actions.
As for minors, sane/retarded people, why make a distinction? They have still taken a life, why should they be happy in the knowledge that they will be getting off lightly because of their age or mental disposition. Most paedophiles and child abusers claim to have a mental disorder of some discription when they don't, but that doesnt stop us punishing them. Im not saying the death penalty should be used for all murders, but should be used lightly, a once a decade sort of thing in extreme circumstances, mass killing, child killing, child rape, that sort of thing.
As for the removal of anatomy, how many women do you know that can rape somebody?
I doubt we will ever solve this problem, but the as far as I am concerned, people should be punished for their actions with no chance of reprieve.

LUKA

01-01-2001, 08:37 PM

Originally posted by Whowhere:
You call it lawful murder. I call it justice. I feel that if a person knows that the worst punishment they will recieve is to sit in a prison cell, living off the state and recieving free meals and shelter then they will not be deterred. If they knew that their actions would carry the ultimate punishment then they would not carry out those actions.
As for minors, sane/retarded people, why make a distinction? They have still taken a life, why should they be happy in the knowledge that they will be getting off lightly because of their age or mental disposition. Most paedophiles and child abusers claim to have a mental disorder of some discription when they don't, but that doesnt stop us punishing them. Im not saying the death penalty should be used for all murders, but should be used lightly, a once a decade sort of thing in extreme circumstances, mass killing, child killing, child rape, that sort of thing.
As for the removal of anatomy, how many women do you know that can rape somebody?
I doubt we will ever solve this problem, but the as far as I am concerned, people should be punished for their actions with no chance of reprieve.
having been at the receiving end of two most abhorrent crimes that could possibly happen to a person. I can only say imho that these sorts of views labelled "justice" are media hyped social hysteria

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The river is wide and oh so deep. I've been walking around in tears, No answers arethere to get. Cause between this world and eternity there is a face I hope to see

Whowhere

01-01-2001, 08:48 PM

What does IMHO mean?
Dont u want to see the person/people who committed a crime against you punished?

LUKA

01-01-2001, 09:55 PM

Originally posted by Whowhere:
What does IMHO mean?

In My Humble Opinion !!

Dont u want to see the person/people who committed a crime against you punished?

Where the fuck did I sugest i didn't want Justice ? I think you should read my post more thoroughly.

There is a huge diference between justice and retribution. I don't want him frying in a chair for what he did to me. One day i will have the strength to go press charges and it'll be sooner than later. I'd rather him rot in jail taken away from society and made to think about what he's done.

besides what's more important plugging these assholes into the national grid or helping out the victims ?

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The river is wide and oh so deep. I've been walking around in tears, No answers arethere to get. Cause between this world and eternity there is a face I hope to see

Daze

01-01-2001, 10:29 PM

u know howd theyd get rid of crime isnt this killing ppl for murder, cos if u murder or rape some1 do child abuse or whatever, u know ur gonna get put in prison for it for a long time if u get caught, they'll do it whether or not u threaten to kill thwem or not.
Now if u start dishing the death penalty out to car thieves n shoplifters n house burglars(not saying this should ever happen) it would more than likely cut crime by 90% straight away. A person who can commit a crime that id call real wrong isnt gonna not do it cos they might get sentenced to death, they do it then think l8r

Daze

01-01-2001, 10:36 PM

Originally posted by Whowhere:
Britain's crime rate at the moment is the highest in Western Europe and rapidly overtaking America's. Nottingham, the city I live in has the third highest crime rate in the country after London and Birmingham.

hmmm bollox... no offense m8, but thats bull shit, Nottingham has a comparatively low crime rate, I know the top 3 r London Manchester n Glasgow, then I would imagine Birmingham mayb, but Nottingham... not up there m8

Whowhere

02-01-2001, 09:14 AM

Originally posted by Daze:
hmmm bollox... no offense m8, but thats bull shit, Nottingham has a comparatively low crime rate, I know the top 3 r London Manchester n Glasgow, then I would imagine Birmingham mayb, but Nottingham... not up there m8

Are you doing A-level geography? Have you just done this topic as part of your syllabus? No. When anyone says crime rate, it is per 1000 population, it is a percentage. Nottingham's total crime may be lower then another city's, but that is because we will have a lower population. Glasgow, just so you know isnt an English city, it is a Scottish one. When you do crime figures for one country (England) you dont include crime figures for another country. There are only 2 other cities in England with a higher crime rate per 1000 people, they are London then Birmingham. Manchester is below Nottingham by a long shot. And you really arent in any position to comment on somebody else's world knowledge if you dont know who Monica Lewinsky is....
As for the topic, a previous post mentioned murders will murder someone despite the punishment. If this is the case then surely you would want them removed permanently from society so they can't be released in ten years. If they can do it once then they can do it again, and if what you said is true, then they surely will do it again. Do we want these people in our society? I dont and Im sure you dont either. As for dealing with petty offenders, do you remember branding? Im sure a thief would think twice if he knew that when he is caught he will have "THIEF" tattoed in big letters across his forehead? It may sound brutal but if you think about it, it would be extremely effective.

LUKA

02-01-2001, 12:55 PM

Originally posted by Whowhere:
And you really arent in any position to comment on somebody else's world knowledge if you dont know who Monica Lewinsky is....

I think the monica Lewinsky thing might just have been a joke <IMG alt="image" SRC="http://www.thesite.org/ubb/rolleyes.gif">

If this is the case then surely you would want them removed permanently from society so they can't be released in ten years.

Below are a few replies from the topic that agrees that serious and persistant offenders need to be taken away from society because of their crimes.

Originally posted by LUKA:
lock them away from society

Originally posted by Girl-From-Mars:
why should they be allowed to go back into society?

Originally posted by LUKA (Again):
I'd rather him rot in jail taken away from society and made to think about what he's done

You seem to think the only answer is to plug them into the national grid. which is more expensive to keep a death row inmate than a normal inmate, because of the constant appeals and stays of execution.

Maybe it's me but I fail to see any rational reason behind your argument in bringing back the death penalty. May I ask why you feel so strongly in favour ? have been been a victim ? has someone close to you been murdered? .

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The river is wide and oh so deep. I've been walking around in tears, No answers arethere to get. Cause between this world and eternity there is a face I hope to see

[This message has been edited by LUKA (edited 02-01-2001).]

[This message has been edited by LUKA (edited 02-01-2001).]

Whowhere

02-01-2001, 01:33 PM

Originally posted by LUKA:
You seem to think the only answer is to plug them into the national grid. which is more expensive to keep a death row inmate than a normal inmate, because of the constant appeals and stays of execution.

Maybe it's me but I fail to see any rational reason behind your argument in bringing back the death penalty. May I ask why you feel so strongly in favour ? have been been a victim ? has someone close to you been murdered? .

Why do i feel strongly about capital and corporal punishment?I have to say I feel more strongly about corporal punishment, when I say kill people for their crimes, I only mean if they really deserve it, if they is unmistakeable proof that they are guilty, and if they are likely to do it again.
As for corporal punishment, it is a far more attractive option, leaving a criminal with a lifelong reminder, for example branding with a tattoo or something similar. I know it sounds brutal, but it will remind them of their crime for life and show others what sort of person he or she really is. I was a victim of mugging a few months ago, it left me feel shaken, and wanting revenge. If I ever saw him again I'd want to leave him with a lasting reminder of what a bastard he really is. Im sure other victims of crime would feel the same way.
Ok, maybe we could forget about the death penalty, but I think that corporal punishment would be an effective way of deterring crime. Would you mug someone if you knew you would have "MUGGER" tattoed on your forehead? It would isolate you from society, forcing you to reflect on your crime at little expense to the government. You would have the option of paying for its removal at your own expense, meaning it would not be permanent. However, Im sure you'll make a point that rich criminals such as drug dealers could afford the treatment, so a minimum period could be introduced. I dont know, as it is only a suggestion, but it would mean criminals are treated with the respect they deserve if they go out in public.

LUKA

02-01-2001, 04:04 PM

Originally posted by Whowhere:
As for the removal of anatomy, how many women do you know that can rape somebody?

No doubt once the tabloids free their minds and then the rest of society will accept another media hyped social hysteria. it wasn't so many years ago that society struggled to accept sexual assault on young girls let alone little boys. it wasn't so many years ago Date rape wasn't "seen" need I go on ? below are a couple of links that might highlight the unseen.
http://www.angelfire.com/mi/collateral/article19.html
http://www.med.monash.edu.au/secasa/workers/html/koonin_taboo.html

Originally posted by Whowhere:
maybe we could forget about the death penalty

We have to Jack Straw has signed away the right to reintroduce the death penalty to this country, as I talked about earlier.

Originally posted by Whowhere:
for example branding with a tattoo or something similar. I know it sounds brutal, but it will remind them of their crime for life and show others what sort of person he or she really is. Would you mug someone if you knew you would have "MUGGER" tattoed on your forehead? It would isolate you from society, forcing you to reflect on your crime at little expense to the government. You would have the option of paying for its removal at your own expense, meaning it would not be permanent.

Nice in theory, but the one thing to remember is that most criminals don't give a shit about society and societies values, which is why they break the law. They are selfish groups and individuals that only want to saisfy their lusts regardless of whom it hurts in the process. Agreed they need to be taken out of society, the only way though must be imprisonment.

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The river is wide and oh so deep. I've been walking around in tears, No answers arethere to get. Cause between this world and eternity there is a face I hope to see

Spirit

02-01-2001, 04:48 PM

Whowhere,

i have shoplifted, done drugs, stolen from people, been a vandal, assaulted people (not defenceless old women or people who couldnt stick up for them selves aginst me) and maybe a few other things i cant think of right now,

does this mean i should have it tattoed all over my face so everyone can see what a **** i am,

i've done all these things not because thats the sort of person i am, but because of problems i have had in the past and because of friends,

as for the how many women do you know that could rape someone,

well,

if i was that sort of person and wanted to rape someone i know i could do it for one, and i'm sure a lot of other females on here could manage it too.

Daze

02-01-2001, 05:15 PM

Originally posted by Whowhere:
Britain's crime rate at the moment is the highest in Western Europe and rapidly overtaking America's. Nottingham, the city I live in has the third highest crime rate in the country after London and Birmingham.

Dense fuck.. look at what u wrote b4 u correct me... N if u want u 2 back these crime statistics up with fact, cos I dont believe it for shit as a while back I was told that Manchester had a higher crime <IMG alt="image" SRC="http://www.thesite.org/ubb/tongue.gif">opulation ration than London.

Also I got a mate in Nottingham, I been out for enuff nites up their, havnt seen 1 stabbing, 1 shooting, 1 burning car or 1 bloke lying practically dead on the floor.
Seen a few fights up there, not really that good either.

n I know in Reading I'm gonna c at lest a stabbing in a nite out even in the nicest areas. Can say my m8 from Nottingham was pretty shit scared on a night out down here n he ended up wanting to go to Oxford most of the other times he's been down here, that aint even in London.

But yeah if n e 1 could find out some crime statistics, I'd b well interested to see them, even if I'm wrong

[This message has been edited by Daze (edited 02-01-2001).]

Whowhere

02-01-2001, 09:45 PM

You want proof???
Here's your proof you "dense fuck" as you so aptly put it.
Dataset1
Crimes per 1000 population
Avon & Somerset 101.53
Bedfordshire 88.86
Cambridgeshire 94.43
Cheshire 66.31
Cleveland 120.59
Cumbria 81.69
Derbyshire 87.48
Devon & Cornwall 71.32
Dorset 76.73
Durham 82.87
Essex 62.90
Gloucestershire 86.19
Hampshire 72.77
Hertfordshire 56.57
Humberside 147.72
Kent 82.59
Lancashire 82.88
Leicestershire 100.53
Lincolnshire 75.35
Norfolk 72.96
Northamptonshire 107.27
North Yorkshire 74.98
Nottinghamshire 131.04
Staffordshire 86.69
Suffolk 59.87
Surrey 54.14
Sussex 87.67
Thames Valley 84.61
Warwickshire 76.42
West Mercia 72.61
Wiltshire 63.72
Dyfed-Powys 51.45
Gwent 105.47
North Wales 66.84
South Wales 109.06
Greater Manchester 140.93
Merseyside 99.67
Northumbria 105.79
South Yorkshire 102.00
West Midlands 119.59
West Yorkshire 129.76
Metropolitan Police 123.54
Northern Ireland 35.66

It appears that Humberside has the greatest with Nottingham in third after Manchester. Beating BOTH LONDON AND BIRMINGHAM (west midlands in case you dont know)

I'll accept you were right about Manchester, but you weren't about Birmingham or London. Want anymore stats? I can get them if you like.If you think I have made these up goto http://www.statistics.gov.uk/statbase/xsdataset.asp and check for yourself.

Whowhere

02-01-2001, 09:51 PM

LUKA

02-01-2001, 10:05 PM

Originally posted by Whowhere:
Then you are a criminal.
Simple as that. Just because someone can stick up for themselves doesn't make them a target, I coud have stuck up for myself if the bastard who mugged me didnt have a knife.
You can't blame your actions on your friends, everything you do has a conscequence, and in this day and age of equal rights for women, women would recieve the same punishments. If you want equality, you get equality.
If you are truly sorry for the things you did and it is all in your past then you dont need to drag it up here. If you still engage in criminal activities because of your so called "friends" then I have no sympathy for you.

May I suggest counselling as you seem to be very angry and upset (rightly so) about your mugging than having a pop at other members of the site (we do not like judgemental attitudes here). Your story highlights my point all along. It's very well punishing for wrong doings, but help for the victim is the most impotant part.

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The river is wide and oh so deep. I've been walking around in tears, No answers arethere to get. Cause between this world and eternity there is a face I hope to see

Whowhere

02-01-2001, 10:16 PM

Originally posted by LUKA:
May I suggest counselling as you seem to be very angry and upset (rightly so) about your mugging than having a pop at other members of the site (we do not like judgemental attitudes here). Your story highlights my point all along. It's very well punishing for wrong doings, but help for the victim is the most impotant part.

It happened a long time ago, but thanx for the concern. I am get upset when people try to defend their actions without feeling remorse or by blaming it on others. Criminals who blame it on society or their parents or next door's dog.
Im sure if I ever saw the mugger again he would tell me it was his brother's fault for stealing a toy when he was 3, and in this day and age the jury would believe him. I apologise to spirit for being judgmental if she truly is a reformed character, but on reflection her being on this site giving help to others is probably proof of that. Again Spirit, I am sorry if you no longer lead your life of crime. But like I said before, I have no sympathy for criminals who refuse to accept responsibility, or live in denial.
I hope you don't all view me as the Facist of the site because of my views, as if you read some of my other posts I can be quite helpful and understanding. But when I looked at the politics page i thought "great, somewhere I can have a proper discussion that wont dissolve into argument". I admit I have strong political views, but they are my views, and my whole reason for being on this part of the site is to discuss my views and other people's views as well.

Daze

03-01-2001, 12:49 AM

Hmm.. u been mugged.. ooh big deal

I been mugged countless times, stabbed twice in the process almost had my neck slit cos of it robbed beaten shitless a fair few times.
Only 2 weeks ago christmas eve I got beaten up in Glasgow n mugged when I was in their with my cousin who was 13.
I just expect it. I dont mind it, u obviously just live in some protected world.. it happens, all the time, I aint no small bloke n I can look after myself, n only bout 1/4 of the times have they been succesful, I'm not the sorta bloke u'd look at n mug in otherwords.

But u gotta expect it 1 or 2 times.. mayb in nice places... e.g. Nottingham it dont happen, but round some places I know, u can b expected to b mugged 3 times in a night.

Worst example of this is a friend of mine(16) got mugged 7 times walking home when he missed his bus.

Dont get so worked up... it happens.

dirty_harry

03-01-2001, 12:52 AM

brightons a bit better than that.

someone tried to mug me once but he didn't get anything but a cut eyebrow for his troubles.

Daze

03-01-2001, 12:59 AM

Originally posted by Whowhere:
You want proof???
Here's your proof you "dense fuck" as you so aptly put it.
Dataset1
Crimes per 1000 population
Avon & Somerset 101.53
Bedfordshire 88.86
Cambridgeshire 94.43
Cheshire 66.31
Cleveland 120.59
Cumbria 81.69
Derbyshire 87.48
Devon & Cornwall 71.32
Dorset 76.73
Durham 82.87
Essex 62.90
Gloucestershire 86.19
Hampshire 72.77
Hertfordshire 56.57
Humberside 147.72
Kent 82.59
Lancashire 82.88
Leicestershire 100.53
Lincolnshire 75.35
Norfolk 72.96
Northamptonshire 107.27
North Yorkshire 74.98
Nottinghamshire 131.04
Staffordshire 86.69
Suffolk 59.87
Surrey 54.14
Sussex 87.67
Thames Valley 84.61
Warwickshire 76.42
West Mercia 72.61
Wiltshire 63.72
Dyfed-Powys 51.45
Gwent 105.47
North Wales 66.84
South Wales 109.06
Greater Manchester 140.93
Merseyside 99.67
Northumbria 105.79
South Yorkshire 102.00
West Midlands 119.59
West Yorkshire 129.76
Metropolitan Police 123.54
Northern Ireland 35.66

It appears that Humberside has the greatest with Nottingham in third after Manchester. Beating BOTH LONDON AND BIRMINGHAM (west midlands in case you dont know)

I'll accept you were right about Manchester, but you weren't about Birmingham or London. Want anymore stats? I can get them if you like.If you think I have made these up goto http://www.statistics.gov.uk/statbase/xsdataset.asp and check for yourself.

Ok for 1... I called u a dense fuck bcos u corrected me saying Glasgow had a high crime rate n that Glasgow wasnt counted. wheras u originally said Britain.

Those statistics, u brought up Birmingham so it wasnt my mistake. I recall saying Manchester was higher than London in another post so I was right there, fair enuff u seem right bout the nottinghamshire point.. which IO cant believe altho it seems right.

If u do feel like digging round for more facts I wouldnt mind seeing the stats for the actual cities/towns in the country also. n mayb the types of crimes that r committed.

dont bother if u dont wanna c em, but I'd b interested mite try n look around myself.

j9j9

03-01-2001, 03:03 AM

Originally posted by Whowhere:
http://www.statistics.gov.uk/statbase/xsdataset.asp and check for yourself.

I'd be interested in the stats for Newcastle & Spennymoor

Your link gave me the response No dataset selected or dataset not found. Please reselect either using the toolbar above or Click here to return to the Main StatBase menu

I couldn't be bothered with "clicking here"

and, you did actually say Britain, as Daze pointed out (sorry to be petty lol).

j9

Spirit

03-01-2001, 03:35 AM

Originally posted by Whowhere:
Then you are a criminal.

Fair does i am a criminal!

Simple as that. Just because someone can stick up for themselves doesn't make them a target, I coud have stuck up for myself if the bastard who mugged me didnt have a knife.

First of all when i was talking about assault i was talking about fighting, I have never attacked someone or mugged them, i have fought with people and done them dmage in the process.

You can't blame your actions on your friends, everything you do has a conscequence

I dont blame my friends, i just think they have been an influence on my behaviour, and i also think they way that i have been brought up, sorry dragged up hase been an influence on it as well, and if i ever did something really bad i would be prepared to pay the price for that.

and in this day and age of equal rights for women, women would recieve the same punishments. If you want equality, you get equality.

I never said anything about me not being punished and that i didnt think i should because i was a woman or anything like that. Not once did i bring up equality!

If you are truly sorry for the things you did and it is all in your past then you dont need to drag it up here.

I wouldnt say i am 'truly sorry' for the things i have done, the drugs for instance they have kept me going for so long and in a way they have sort of been my reason for getting up in the morning, stopped me form going over the edge when i was having a lot of shit. It may be hard for oyu to understand but you dont know the things i have been through.

If you still engage in criminal activities because of your so called "friends" then I have no sympathy for you.

My friends are not 'so called friends' they are my friends, we are there for each other we try to support each other, some of us might be a bad influence on each other but never the less we are friends all the same, like i said above, my friends arent the reason i have done some of the things i have done, they have just been an influence and i may have been an influence on them too, and i do still engage in criminal activities in a way, because i lnow hundreds of people that have done things and they could get sent down for so im covering up for them, but they are my FRIENDS , and I may not be well right now but when i am the first thing im gonna be doing is smoking a spliff, but dont you go getting worried cos i earn my money and it wont be affecting you in anyway!

Oh and on elast thign i dont want your sympathy anyway thank you very much!

Spirit

03-01-2001, 03:43 AM

As you can see im not in denial at all as i admit the things i do very openly and freely, maybe i should be ashsamed of the things i do but im not and i cant help the way i feel.

Whowhere

03-01-2001, 09:16 AM

Lets agree for bygones to be bygones.
I will try and find the types of crimes from my dad.
Maybe Nottingham scores higher because of shootings or burglaries, I dont know. All I know is that the number of violent crimes in the city centre itself has dropped since last year. Last year 12 people were shot outside of a club so they police decided to send patrol men and cars into the centre of the town, which has had a huge effect. MOst of the crime that does happen now happens in The Meadows, St Anns and Radford. And If I remember rightly these are down to violent assaults and burglaries. So maybe Reading scores higher in robbery (mugging for those who dont know) but lower in other types. All I know is that whenever somebody from the Meadows or St Anns is being tried for one of the serious things they have armed police outside the crown court....
So lets forget the argument about city has more crime. I'll try and find the types of crime later.

Whowhere

03-01-2001, 09:19 AM

Originally posted by j9j9:
I'd be interested in the stats for Newcastle & Spennymoor

Your link gave me the response No dataset selected or dataset not found. Please reselect either using the toolbar above or Click here to return to the Main StatBase menu

I couldn't be bothered with "clicking here"

and, you did actually say Britain, as Daze pointed out (sorry to be petty lol).

j9

The stats are done by county, so Newcastle and Spennymore are there, but as I dont know the county names I dont know which. Isnt Newcastle in North Yorkshire?
It isnt working because you also have to select the "per 1000 population" that is in the second box.

Whowhere

03-01-2001, 09:31 AM

Originally posted by Spirit:
Whowhere,

i have shoplifted,
done drugs, stolen from people, been a vandal, assaulted people (not defenceless old women or people who couldnt stick up for them selves aginst me) and maybe a few other things i cant think of right now,

does this mean i should have it tattoed all over my face so everyone can see what a **** i am,

i've done all these things not because thats the sort of person i am, but because of problems i have had in the past and because of friends,

as for the how many women do you know that could rape someone,

well,

if i was that sort of person and wanted to rape someone i know i could do it for one, and i'm sure a lot of other females on here could manage it too.

[/B][/QUOTE]

The way you make it out at the top that you assaulted people, not had fights with them. You say you stole from people? From their person or from their home or car? You have been a vandal, great. Of all the types of crime, vandalism is the most pointless. Why vandalise something? Is it because you couldn't steal it or because you happened to be carrying a can of spray paint? Or when you say vandalism do you actually mean criminal damage?
All of the things you have done except fighting have affected the public. Someone has to clean up the vandalism at their own expense. The shop has to pay for the goods that are stolen. As for drugs, I dont mind them, as long as their use doesn't affect the rest of society, which in your case it used to. Do your employers know about your past? Have you been punished or served time for your actions?What would happen if your employers did find out? You say that you are covering up for your friends? What happens if one of them turns you in? Your friends only influence you because you let them, how did they influence you? Did they say you were a wuss? Did you do it to impress them? You have left many questions unanswered, and by showing you obviously have no remorse whatsoever "because thats the way you are".

Spirit

03-01-2001, 02:40 PM

Originally posted by Whowhere:

The way you make it out at the top that you assaulted people, not had fights with them. You say you stole from people? From their person or from their home or car?

I have pick pocketed guys in town while dancing with them and things like that, i have robbed cars, my mums especially, ive stolen alcohol from home and taken my mums credit card a couple of times, these are things i am quite sorry for and wouldnt do them now, or at least i think i wouldnt but at the time i didnt know any better.

You have been a vandal, great. Of all the types of crime, vandalism is the most pointless. Why vandalise something?

Because i was fuct out of my face on drugs and or beer and quite frankly i thought it was fun smashing ym school windows on a firday night and writing all over the windows with markes telling them i hated all the teachers and the school was a pile of wank!
They knew it was me because i signed my name at the bottom of it, but they never got me done for it!!

Is it because you couldn't steal it or because you happened to be carrying a can of spray paint? Or when you say vandalism do you actually mean criminal damage?

No i havent vandalised things because i couldnt steal them, and no ive never carried spray paint around me but i have carried permanet markers round with me and ive just written on things.
About the criminal damage, i have smashed my school up several times and othe minor things.

All of the things you have done except fighting have affected the public. Someone has to clean up the vandalism at their own expense. The shop has to pay for the goods that are stolen. As for drugs, I dont mind them, as long as their use doesn't affect the rest of society, which in your case it used to.

Well thats where you are wrong because my fighting has affected the public as well, and i understand that my behaviour has put people out but when you are rebelling against the world and its people its not as if you care! And my drug use does not always affect other people.

Do your employers know about your past?

No they dont.

Have you been punished or served time for your actions?

No i have never served time, i got suspended form school for the things i did there but the police were never involved, all i have had is a few cautions.

What would happen if your employers did find out?

Well i am working for somewhere that employs all sorts of people to give them another chance, drug users, criminals etc etc.. my past is nothing compared to some of the people that work there, they employ people on the basis that you dont need a reference or have to tell them about your past employment, you get 3 chances and if you slip up ur out.

You say that you are covering up for your friends?

I know things about them that could get them into serious troube yes but at the end of the day i am a part of it too and they are my friends so i would never do anything to get them into trouble even if i wanted to anyway it wouldnt be worth my life.

What happens if one of them turns you in?

None of them would, i dont hang around with petty bastards who try and get each other into trouble, i never even need to think about that because i trust them, or else I never would have got involved with them or taken part in any criminal activity with them if i thought they were going to turn on me.

Your friends only influence you because you let them, how did they influence you? Did they say you were a wuss? Did you do it to impress them?

I know my friends only influenced me because i let them, but i have not been forced into doing things with them that i havent wanted to do, it is not just them that are a bad influence on me, i am just as much a bad influence on them as well, they have never called me a wuss because they would respect me if i didnt want to take part in something that was going on, and i havent doen things to impress people.

You have left many questions unanswered, and by showing you obviously have no remorse whatsoever "because thats the way you are".

That is not the way i am, it is the way that my life has made me, you do not have any idea of the shit i have been through, you do not know me and you do not know what kind of person i am,

im a very nice person to have for a friend, i am loyal and am always there if someone needs me, life has just dealt me a bad hand and i have made some wrong decisions.

Whowhere

03-01-2001, 03:21 PM

Originally posted by Spirit:
That is not the way i am, it is the way that my life has made me, you do not have any idea of the shit i have been through, you do not know me and you do not know what kind of person i am,

im a very nice person to have for a friend, i am loyal and am always there if someone needs me, life has just dealt me a bad hand and i have made some wrong decisions.

Thank you for answering my questions. Maybe life has dealt you a bad blow, but at least you are trying to make amends. Sorry for riling you like that, but if the government did take up the idea of corporal punishment maybe an education system or a "3 strikes and your out" system like your employer's would make an additional improvement. At the end of the day this post is really an argumentative one, except with facts to back it up, what does everybody else think about corporal punishment? People who havent yet replied to this post? Tell me if you agree or disagree and your reasons for and against, as this would be helpful.

Spirit

03-01-2001, 04:28 PM

I'd just like to add that, maybe if the system had fucked me so much when i was younger i never would have done the things i have done,

social services have give me fuck all support when i have neede it, and they made all the wrong decisions 4 me when i was younger.

Maybe if young people got more support they would not turn to drugs and crime as much as they do.

Burnout_Girl

26-02-2001, 05:13 AM

I know this thread stoppped long ago, but I just saw it now. Whowhere, please tell me you aren't serious. This is truly the most simplistic, caveman-like and silly view I've seen.

So lemme get this straight...I'm a former addict. Never stole or comitted any other crimes except possession of drugs. What would you do with me? Think that I can't be rehabilitated? Try to explain this to me using logic, and not your personal morals, because I'm truly stumped.

Want children and the mentally retarded put to death for murder? "Forget human rights"?

A word of warning for you...be careful what you say online. In my country you could would be dangerously close to committing a hate crime by saying things like this. Hmmm...what should the punishment for hate crimes be?

I vote for a brand across the forehead saying "moron".

Whowhere

26-02-2001, 09:59 AM

Originally posted by Burnout_Girl:
I know this thread stoppped long ago, but I just saw it now. Whowhere, please tell me you aren't serious. This is truly the most simplistic, caveman-like and silly view I've seen.

So lemme get this straight...I'm a former addict. Never stole or comitted any other crimes except possession of drugs. What would you do with me? Think that I can't be rehabilitated? Try to explain this to me using logic, and not your personal morals, because I'm truly stumped.

Want children and the mentally retarded put to death for murder? "Forget human rights"?

A word of warning for you...be careful what you say online. In my country you could would be dangerously close to committing a hate crime by saying things like this. Hmmm...what should the punishment for hate crimes be?

I vote for a brand across the forehead saying "moron".

Yes, burnout girl, I am serious. There are a few details you have missed out, which I will try to explain. Firstly, death would only apply to truly evil people. Mass murderers, paedophiles, terrorists. People who's regard for society and it's values dissapered a long time ago. These people have no use for society and society should have no use for them. Is it poosible to rehabilitate a mass murderer or a terrorist???

Secondly, children are not subject to adult laws in this country. If the child is under 18 they would recieve a suitable sentence.

Thirdly, not stealing for your drugs means you are one of a minority (for the purposes of this I am working under the asumption that Pot will be legal soon here anyway). If you were into hard drugs then I seriously doubt you could afford it without "supplementing" your income.

fourthly, you missed out drug dealers. What should we do with them???

fifthly. You dont live in England. You don't know how bad the situation of crime is here. We have (and dont contradict me, I will find statistics) one of the highest crime rates in the developed world. Our prisons are overflowing and it is getting to the point where criminals are having their sentences cut short. This is obviously not the case in Canada, a country with one third the population of england where you dont seem to have these problems.

And I fail to see why demanding justice could be classed as a hate crime in your country, are you saying if someone came into your house, murdered your family, and the one down the road you wouldnt want to see that person dead? And dont say it doesnt happen, it does. Over here they are known as terrorists.

Burnout_Girl

26-02-2001, 11:28 AM

ok, I'll try to respond to the points you raised.

1. OK, only evil people will be put to death. Simply a difference of opinion here. I'm opposed to the death penalty for moral reasons, so we'll agree to disagree on this one. But yeah, you've named the absolute worst offenders, I'll give you that.

2. Not sure what you are saying here. Earlier you suggested that children and the mentally ill should be treated the same way as any other offender. Is that what you want, or are you happy with the system now?

3.Yes, hard drugs. No, "supplementing". Fact is I have money, which I make myself. Insinuate all you want, but not all addicts are homeless white trash.

4. I'd like to see harsh penalties for dealers. These people prey on one of the most vulnerable groups in society...addicts. They are sick, in my opinion...though keep in mind, many are addicts themselves who felt they had no other options.

5. Geez, I wouldn't dare contradict you on English crime stats (though I'm curious about your crime rates and how high they are...wouldn't mind seeing those stats actually). As for Canada, I honestly can't tell if you are trying to be a smart-alec or you really are that deluded about the rest of the world. Erm, yes we have the same problems as you here...overcrowded prisons, short/leniant sentences to deal with the crowding. What's more, we also have crime! Not sure what the population has to do with it, but if it matters that much to you, I live in a large city (pop. 4 million). Bigger than Nottingham, no? What's your point?

Justice is one thing, but you have clearly suggested that you would be happy to see human rights ignored to make way for brutal torture, and that you advocate these sentences for children and the retarded. While we're at it, why don't we start stoning women to death for showing their ankles, or how about the death penalty for pre-marital sex? Maybe you'd be happier living in Afghanistan.

BTW...how does it feel to be so perfect? I haven't actually met anyone before who is so completely moral, rightous and mistake-free that he feels he has the right to tell me he'd like to see my type "branded" based on one fact. Must be great to be so righteous!

And believe it or not, if someone murdered my family, I would want justice...however justice to me does not involve the death penalty or torture. Sorry.

Burnout_Girl

26-02-2001, 11:31 AM

OK, so that post had a nasty tone to it and I was pretty bitchy. Sorry. Not for my views, but for the way I expressed them.

I just can't stand it when people who don't know me feel they can judge me. Grrrr.

Bye

Whowhere

26-02-2001, 10:31 PM

I think your point did have a rather bitchy view to it. I never said I would judge anyone and that I am in a posistion to judge anyone. Justice is decided by people who are supposed to be representative of society, hence the need of a jury. Trial for the people, by the people. Never have I determined myself, or felt myself to be morally perfect. I do make mistakes like every one else on this planet. However my point is my mistakes are not ones that affect the welfare of others in society. My mistakes have always affected ME in some way, like saying something stupid to a girl, or kicking a football through a window. I have never killed anyone or felt the need to rape someone and I never will.

I know you describe my views as tribal or simplistic, but I assure you they aren't. Whenever I see in the news about some sort of murderer or rapist being set free on a legal loophole it sickens me. It sickens me to see people found guilty by irrefutable evidence but then appealing to the European court of human rights because their cell doesnt have a television and being set free. I know I have said it before, but I will say it again, people who commit a crime should pay. The people have the right to justice, so what if it isn't humane? I never said I would like to see them tortured. And as for corporal punishment, the only torture they will recieve is the humilitation of having to walk down a street or attend a job inteview knowing that the people who look at them know what they did. I dont know if you heard about the Jamie Bulger case, but the kid's murderers are going to be released, with new identities. No one is allowed to reveal who they are or where they will be living. Is this right? If you knew about the case details I think you would agree with me.

Whowhere

26-02-2001, 10:37 PM

The stats u asked to see can be found at http://www.statistics.gov.uk/statbase/xsdataset.asp

I would paste them here but they are too large and do not fit into the space.

Jaloux

27-02-2001, 12:45 PM

Originally posted by Whowhere:

And as for corporal punishment, the only torture they will recieve is the humilitation of having to walk down a street or attend a job inteview knowing that the people who look at them know what they did.

I admit it! I stole Kinder eggs two years ago and got caught. <IMG alt="image" SRC="http://www.thesite.org/ubb/eek.gif"> The treatment my case got was enough for me to stop. Although I was more scared of my mum than the police <IMG alt="image" SRC="http://www.thesite.org/ubb/wink.gif"> (Had to tell me mum or the police would call in three days)

I've probably said this before, but in animal training the animals wits instead of their pain is used, and it works alot better in most of the cases. Humans are in a way still animals, and lately alot of methods which do not include any physical or mental punishment are being used more because studies have shown this gives better results. Why do you want to begin in the most obvious part of the ladder instead of beginning before those things have happened?
To me it's kinda logical to begin preventing problems before they occure, at least I do that everyday when I do something. <IMG alt="image" SRC="http://www.thesite.org/ubb/smile.gif">

I don't want to see the next generation filled with hate against people that often are experiencing problems. I want a happy and healthy society, which will not be established with corporal punishment.

<IMG alt="image" SRC="http://www.thesite.org/ubb/cool.gif">
-Faf

You Don't_Know_Me

27-02-2001, 08:59 PM

most of you seem to be talking about punishment or revenge. Don't you believe in rehabilitation?

Whowhere

27-02-2001, 10:31 PM

Originally posted by You Don't_Know_Me:
most of you seem to be talking about punishment or revenge. Don't you believe in rehabilitation?

Yes, I do. My punishment and revnge is reserved for the people who have no chance of rehabilitation, or those who don't deserve the chance. Paedophiles, rapists, serial killers, terrorists, child abusers e.t.c.
Rehab is good for petty criminals but I doubt it would work in getting a terrorist to change his views.

Jaloux

27-02-2001, 11:48 PM

LUKA

28-02-2001, 12:32 AM

Originally posted by Whowhere:
Yes, I do. My punishment and revnge is reserved for the people who have no chance of rehabilitation, or those who don't deserve the chance. Paedophiles, rapists, serial killers, terrorists, child abusers e.t.c.
Rehab is good for petty criminals but I doubt it would work in getting a terrorist to change his views.

FFS Whowhere you are hashing over old ground again. Did you not put a post earlier in this thread calling for bygones to be bygones ? Like I said when this thread was started revenge and retribution do not constitute justice. Someone said about rehabilitation, rehabillitation of offenders can only start once their punishment has been completed. I wish you would stop making sweeping generalisations and assumptions like you do. If you want to debate what to do with serious offenders I will as always be happy to, and you know which serious crime I'll be using to highlight my points !!

<IMG alt="image" SRC="http://www.thesite.org/ubb/mad.gif">
<IMG alt="image" SRC="http://www.thesite.org/ubb/mad.gif">
<IMG alt="image" SRC="http://www.thesite.org/ubb/mad.gif">LUKA
<IMG alt="image" SRC="http://www.thesite.org/ubb/mad.gif"> <IMG alt="image" SRC="http://www.thesite.org/ubb/mad.gif"> <IMG alt="image" SRC="http://www.thesite.org/ubb/mad.gif">

------------------
The river is wide and oh so deep. I've been walking around in tears, No answers arethere to get. Cause between this world and eternity there is a face I hope to see

Whowhere

28-02-2001, 07:37 AM

Why is it that whenever someone starts a "risque" post on the site everybody scuttles over to the majority or sits on the fence for fear of losing face???
I know there are people on these boards who feel the same why I do, but they obviously do not want to aire their views for fear of getting the treatment I am getting.
Yes Luka, I did call for bygones to be bygones, but Burnout girl came and started it all again.
Yes, maybe my views are "wild assumptions" but they are my views, and something I believe in. Yes, I accept there would be deep flaws in my plan to bring back the to types of punishment, and I realise the corporal punishment does amount to torture,so lets drop that one I admit I was wrong about that. But I am not turning around on the issue of capital punishment, and what to do with serious offenders.
Fafnir, terrorists are terrorists because of their extreme political views. I doubt you could persuade a member of the IRA to stop hating the British, the same you could stop an animal rights activist from hating the researchers at Huntingdon.
My reasons for capital punishment?
1.What rights should a murderer have?
2.What rights should a terrorist have?
3.What rights should a rapist have?
4.What rights should a paedophile have?
Up to now nobody has answered these questions. Instead you have simply said that we they made a mistake, or we shouldn't sink to their level, or it isnt right to take another live despite what they did. But these are sweeping generalisations that cant possibly apply to serious criminals, criminals who dont deserve another chance.

You Don't_Know_Me

28-02-2001, 06:11 PM

Murderers - usually highly disturbed people, or someone tormented by their victim
paedophiles - in my opinion, they are mentaly ill, and should be treated as such
rapist - also mentaly instable, the actions they take are a result of hormones.
terrorists - they mostly believe
what they are fighting for is right. surely they need re-education.

what i'm trying to say is serious criminals are almost always ill, they need rehabilitation, not punishment, revenge or hatred.

just because they denny the the human rights of others, does not mean they should have there own rights dennied.

PS i do realise i'm more liberal than most...

Whowhere

28-02-2001, 10:25 PM

Originally posted by You Don't_Know_Me:
Murderers - usually highly disturbed people, or someone tormented by their victim
paedophiles - in my opinion, they are mentaly ill, and should be treated as such
rapist - also mentaly instable, the actions they take are a result of hormones.
terrorists - they mostly believe
what they are fighting for is right. surely they need re-education.

what i'm trying to say is serious criminals are almost always ill, they need rehabilitation, not punishment, revenge or hatred.

just because they denny the the human rights of others, does not mean they should have there own rights dennied.

PS i do realise i'm more liberal than most...

Murderers <IMG alt="image" SRC="http://www.thesite.org/ubb/biggrin.gif">id Harold Shipman feel tortured by his victims? Did Myra Hindley feel scared and confused whenever she saw a child?
No.
Paedophiles:Can we really turn someone with a desire to sexually abuse children into a productive and stable member of society?
Rapists:Some people rape out of hatred, not just ecause of high hormone levels
Terrorists:It is impossible to cause someone to stop believing in something they want to die for. I believe in the UK, and when I am older I will be willing to die for my country when I join the Army or RAF. A terrorist, however unorthdox his or her methods feels he/she is fighting for their country, a set of principles they believe in. Forget what the films say about making them see the light, they wont.

Spirit II

28-02-2001, 11:33 PM

Originally posted by Whowhere:
Why is it that whenever someone starts a "risque" post on the site everybody scuttles over to the majority or sits on the fence for fear of losing face???

Ok well that is just bullshit, some ppl probably want to reply but cant really be arsed makin long drawn out posts for you to come back at them with your obnoxious attitude towards this subject.

I know there are people on these boards who feel the same why I do, but they obviously do not want to aire their views for fear of getting the treatment I am getting.

You know do you just like you know everything else, has anyone actually said this to you??

Some how i think not.
Did u never think that mayb u r one in a small majority who has this opinion??
And why do y uo think u r getting the treatment u r getting because the way u put ur argument across is bollox,
if u want a real debate about soemthing stop talking to ppl like they r two year olds n like they r pieces of shite who know nothing and u r just a know it all.

Maybe ppl will b more inclined to post in this subject then.

LUKA

28-02-2001, 11:53 PM

I appologise if any of this appears agressive, it is not, it truly was written with an unangry heart

Originally posted by Whowhere:
I know there are people on these boards who feel the same why I do, but they obviously do not want to aire their views for fear of getting the treatment I am getting.
Yes Luka, I did call for bygones to be bygones, but Burnout girl came and started it all again.

But there was still no need for coming across judgemental and superior. There were other ways to express your views in a less agressive nature, the reason I stopped posting last time round was it got an all out bitching thing. All Burnout was doing was adding her 2 cents worth like we've all done, and you couldn't resist. And everyone is free to voice their feelings and everyone will listen, but really what is the point of bringing ground already well and truly trodden

Ok now I'm lost with what your point is. You mentioned about not contradicting you, whilst contradict yourself or seem to change your mind with what you think someone wants to here. The first quote is taken from your last point whilst the second chunk is a post made by you when we all got heated last time.

Yes, maybe my views are "wild assumptions" but they are my views, and something I believe in. Yes, I accept there would be deep flaws in my plan to bring back the to types of punishment, and I realise the corporal punishment does amount to torture,so lets drop that one I admit I was wrong about that. But I am not turning around on the issue of capital punishment, and what to do with serious offenders.

As for corporal punishment, it is a far more attractive option, leaving a criminal with a lifelong reminder, for example branding with a tattoo or something similar. I know it sounds brutal, but it will remind them of their crime for life and show others what sort of person he or she really is. I was a victim of mugging a few months ago, it left me feel shaken, and wanting revenge. If I ever saw him again I'd want to leave him with a lasting reminder of what a bastard he really is. Im sure other victims of crime would feel the same way.
Ok, maybe we could forget about the death penalty, but I think that corporal punishment would be an effective way of deterring crime. Would you mug someone if you knew you would have "MUGGER" tattoed on your forehead? It would isolate you from society, forcing you to reflect on your crime at little expense to the government. You would have the option of paying for its removal at your own expense, meaning it would not be permanent. However, Im sure you'll make a point that rich criminals such as drug dealers could afford the treatment, so a minimum period could be introduced. I dont know, as it is only a suggestion, but it would mean criminals are treated with the respect they deserve if they go out in public.

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<IMG alt="image" SRC="http://www.thesite.org/ubb/smile.gif">LUKA
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The river is wide and oh so deep. I've been walking around in tears, No answers arethere to get. Cause between this world and eternity there is a face I hope to see

[This message has been edited by LUKA (edited 01-03-2001).]

Spirit II

28-02-2001, 11:55 PM

Originally posted by Whowhere:
Murderers <IMG alt="image" SRC="http://www.thesite.org/ubb/biggrin.gif">id Harold Shipman feel tortured by his victims? Did Myra Hindley feel scared and confused whenever she saw a child?
No.

Ok well u r missing out on the fact that maybe they werent tormented by thier victims,
how much do u actually know about these cases?
The impression i got from the myra hindley and ian brady case was that myra hindley hersefl was a bit of a victim to ian brady, (is that his name? lol) im not sayin this excuses her in any way but they were obviously both mentally disturbed to be doing these things!
I think what you dont_know_me meant when he/she said theyw ere tormented by thier victim shes talkin about things like pppl who r abused and end up turnin on their abuser and murdering them or something.

Paedophiles:Can we really turn someone with a desire to sexually abuse children into a productive and stable member of society?

Right i know this is not the case with a lot of children ok but some who r abused themselves end up being abusers.
I have been abused n i know for a fact i would never ever want to do those things to anyone else, i cant even say anything about it cos its so fucked up n dont even admit it half the time n when ppl ask me stuff i deny it cos its too hard for me to deal with in my own head, so no way would i do it to someone else,

but it pushes some ppl over the edge and they do end up doing it, these ppl should get counselling for what has happened to them, i mean obviously this cant happen if ppl dont know about it.

Maybe if we could look at serial killers and paedophiles and other seuxal abusers and abusers of any kind we could spot a common denominator (dont think thats the right things to say) ermm well something that links them all, like the fact that they all go through things in their lives, things like being put in childrens homes and being abusesed, and other stuff, then maybe children wll get the right support they need to prevent them from turning that way,

now i am NOT saying that thats what most paedohpiles r and what their lives have been like because i know some r money makin toe rags and that they r really mentally ill ppl.

these ppl should be helped, if u have a mental illness it is not ur fault, u didnt ask for it.

Rapists:Some people rape out of hatred, not just ecause of high hormone levels

PPl rape for all sorts of reasons n that we know, a lot of men dont see it as a big problem when they physically force a woman to have sex with them especially when it is a gf or something they seem to think it is ok, and i know this from experience.

Terrorists:It is impossible to cause someone to stop believing in something they want to die for. I believe in the UK, and when I am older I will be willing to die for my country when I join the Army or RAF. A terrorist, however unorthdox his or her methods feels he/she is fighting for their country, a set of principles they believe in. Forget what the films say about making them see the light, they wont.
[/b][/quote]

Well i dont know anything about terrorists so im not even going ot say anything about that but basically look,

ive been abuses in many differnt ways and im not asking for anyone to be murdered o fell sorry for the ppl who have treated me badly int hese ways because they r the ones who have problems and need helping them and if anyone should want to kill them its me.

Whowhere

01-03-2001, 08:56 AM

Ok
To everyone, I am sorry for my aggressive attitude.
Luka, I did say I was wrong about corporal punishment, after consideration I agree that it would be torture, and the people who would recieve corporal punishment are the people who prolly can be rehabilitated.
Spirit, I didnt say Ian Brady because I forgot his name and I didnt want to say "that bloke". But you have backed up my point for me, maybe Myra Hindley was influenced by Brady, but who influenced Brady?
As for my statement about the people sitting on the fence thing, I still feel like that. You have done nothing (this includes on other boards) but make me feel unwelcome. Like the post in relationships about generalisations that I made.
I know you dont like me, but I dont know why. For some reason you started insulting me about many of the posts I have made. Why?

LUKA

01-03-2001, 02:14 PM

<offers out hand> sorry dude, I guess as we said a while ago to let, bygones be bygones and agree to dissagree. Though we do agree something desperately needs to be done about our correctional facilities, to protect society from people who don't want to respect society and societies values.

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<IMG alt="image" SRC="http://www.thesite.org/ubb/smile.gif">LUKA
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The river is wide and oh so deep. I've been walking around in tears, No answers arethere to get. Cause between this world and eternity there is a face I hope to see

Jaloux

01-03-2001, 02:28 PM

Originally posted by Whowhere:
Fafnir, terrorists are terrorists because of their extreme political views. I doubt you could persuade a member of the IRA to stop hating the British, the same you could stop an animal rights activist from hating the researchers at Huntingdon.

Terrorists:It is impossible to cause someone to stop believing in something they want to die for. I believe in the UK, and when I am older I will be willing to die for my country when I join the Army or RAF. A terrorist, however unorthdox his or her methods feels he/she is fighting for their country, a set of principles they believe in. Forget what the films say about making them see the light, they wont.

They are fighting for something, something they believe in. They may not be doing it the right way, but some may see it as the only way, which is the wrong thing. But how is a small country supposed to let countries that do have the power to do something notice that they are being crushed down by their neighbour going to be noticed? Surely not by knocking on someones door and asking for help. I think you are very brave assuming that every terrorist is a bastard that can't be turned to the light.
It's their way of being noticed, but it's a very negative way though, I admit that. By risking their lives they are doing the same thing you are doing by joining the Army or RAF, they are joining something, determined in fighting for their country..

And tell me, why do you know about their chances of rehabilititation so well? I mean, as far as I can tell they aren't that common, and surely don't sound like the types you'd hang around with =)

As far as I can tell, I have said nothing to you on any other thread.. <IMG alt="image" SRC="http://www.thesite.org/ubb/smile.gif"> You do have strong views and some people may not like them, but if you can put them forward without turning to aggression or making them look plain stupid, then I can't see any reason for people to
dislike you, except if you are a really annoying one.. <IMG alt="image" SRC="http://www.thesite.org/ubb/wink.gif"> But the first impression thing is quite strong, so what can I say?

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-Faf

Spirit II

01-03-2001, 02:51 PM

Originally posted by Whowhere:
Spirit, I didnt say Ian Brady because I forgot his name and I didnt want to say "that bloke". But you have backed up my point for me, maybe Myra Hindley was influenced by Brady, but who influenced Brady?

Well this is what im tryna say right....

this is a classic case of someone being pressured into doing it and a sick person.
Ian brady obviously was sick in the head to do those things and the way that he controlled myra hindley, some ppl might say oh well how can u let someone pressure u into doing those things or run ur life anyway, if u know about my best mate right now n the way shes being controlled by her gf and has been physically on her own in the last 2 months for about an hour and u understood u can understand how such a thing like this can happen.

I do think its really sad that ppl get a kick out of murdering someone, and yes i think they have done something wrong but i cant help feeling sorry for the ppl who have commited the crime also, because lets face it anyone who wants to muder a child or touch a child up and do awful things to it n enjoy it, well they must have really bad problems, n something has made them that way, well most of them i think, ppl dont just wake up one day n conscoiusly think oh im going to be a serial killer or a mass murdered (same thing? oh i dont know) or a ponce.

Something goes in their head or i dont know they end up doing it but they dont really know what theyre doing cos theyve got problems in the head! theyre sick! in more than one way.

I think they need help not hurting, or banged up for god knows how long, thats just throwing their problem to one side, n like we said we all have rights so they have a right to treatment.

As for my statement about the people sitting on the fence thing, I still feel like that. You have done nothing (this includes on other boards) but make me feel unwelcome. Like the post in relationships about generalisations that I made.
I know you dont like me, but I dont know why. For some reason you started insulting me about many of the posts I have made. Why?

Ok i hold my hands up on this one maybe i have made u feel unwelcome and im sorry for that, the thing in the post about generalisatioins was the fact that the girl was obviously upset about something and u said it was unfair what she was saying, we all say things when we r upset, and i seem to b having a bad bout of pmt right now n u men r getting on my tits not cos of anything inparticular and certainly not literally cos i wouldnt let one near me right now, just happens that u got it took out on you, if u look around me and girl-from-mars (both feelin the same towards men last night) picked on a lot of u guys it wasnt just you.

I cant actually remember what i said exaclty but i just think sometimes u have to take ppls personal feelings into consideration (which i obviously have not done with you sorry) and not go at everything the way u do, sometimes ppl want a shoudler to cry on or someone to talk to about a problem not everything is a debate about life and politics and the universe and thats how u strike me, like everything is an open window for a debate.

Dark Knight

01-03-2001, 03:13 PM

I would just like to know one thing out of everything. Where in god's name do we draw the line???? We can't use peoples personal opinions because everybody has different ones, and therefore actions which may be likely to cause offence to somebody may actually be deemed ok by others. It is impossible to do and that is why people disagree, fight, brawl, rumble, and war! and that is the way it will always work!

You Don't_Know_Me

01-03-2001, 10:27 PM

for one reason or other all murders are mentaly disturbed. ie ill. They need rehabilitation, not punishment.

Also on capital punishment, what about the risk of killing an innocent man/woman?

Whowhere

01-03-2001, 10:36 PM

Also on capital punishment, what about the risk of killing an innocent man/woman?[/B]

This is the one thing I cant remember anyone mentioning before in argument against me! See, nobody assumes innocence. It is the only thing I dont have an answer for. I suppose capital punishment couldnt go ahead unless we were 100% certain that they commitied the crime, say having more than 4 pieces of evidence, like photos, DNA, fingerprints e.t.c.
I know it is a touchy subject, I started it because we had been discussing it in sociology, and everyone in the class was in favour of it, not being sexist or anything but I was generally surprised as there are only 2 lads in our class.
Spirit...friends?
Luka...let bygones be bygones?
good, now thats sorted we can all argue about single currency lol.

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Join the Army and travel the world, meet new and exciting people and kill them.

Burnout_Girl

03-03-2001, 01:44 AM

Whowhere, I'm sorry if you felt I was attacking you personally. I only meant to give my opinion and wanted to take part in this debate on a very difficult subject. I must admit, I took your comment about drug users personally, having been one recently, and knowing that rehabilitation rather that punishment gave me a second chance. I have been able to get a university degree, work as a successful business person, buy a house, car and a company during my 4.5 years clean. I make good money, pay my (high!) taxes, and have become a far more productive member of society (in some respects), and had more success than most people ever do.

Earlier, you asked why people seem to sit on the fence or side with the majority. I can't say why for sure, but I have a theory about it. First of all, most side with the majority simply because the are the majority. As for "fence sitters", I think many people realize that they don't have all the answers, and don't feel a need to commit to one side or another. Many people here have suggested that the punishment for two murders may vary depending on the circumstances, and that they don't want to make sweeping generalizations, which you must admit is a valid and fair opinion.

Anyway, just want to let you know that I love a good debate on a tough issue, I just get offended when someone says something which judges me without knowing the facts. That's why I posted and that's why I was annoyed. Everyone has a right to their opinion, I just like to know that it is an informed one, which is what debate is all about IMHO.

BTW, the link you posted earlier was dead, but the site must have contradictory info. I checked some other sources on the same site that said the highest crime rate in the developed world is the USA, with England somewhere in the middle. Canada is close to England, but slightly higher. I guess you can't always count on statistics.

I guess what I want to say to you is this...if you bring up a contreversial subject, you have to expect that people will have strong opinions and emotions on the subject. You can't take the fact that they disagree with you personally and claim you are being treated badly because people disagree with you. A personal insult is another thing altogether and doesn't have any place in a rational debate. I realize that I said inappropriate things, and again I am sorry, but I didn't really notice anyone else here saying anything like that to you.
You said something that upset me, and I did the same to you, but I hope you understand that I don't "hate" you or anything...just got upset.

Anyhow, shall we agree to disagree on this one, shake hands, and go on to the next subject?

Respect.

naughtyboy

19-03-2001, 07:38 PM

If some little dickfuck commits murder whatever their age they should be hanged in public then burnt on mass bonfires that will deter people from commiting a fucking sad and terrible crime. If all suspects have DNA tests and they are innocent then thats fine set them free but if guilty torture them then execute them simple. fuck all of these human rights laws abolish most of them without delay thas what i think and say. If you dont like these punishments then dont commit the crimes its quite simple really isnt it?

Whowhere

19-03-2001, 10:26 PM

Originally posted by naughtyboy:
If some little dickfuck commits murder whatever their age they should be hanged in public then burnt on mass bonfires that will deter people from commiting a fucking sad and terrible crime. If all suspects have DNA tests and they are innocent then thats fine set them free but if guilty torture them then execute them simple. fuck all of these human rights laws abolish most of them without delay thas what i think and say. If you dont like these punishments then dont commit the crimes its quite simple really isnt it?

Lol, well thought out post there. Stand by for the flaming from the other site members in:
3....
2....
1....

19-03-2001, 11:41 PM

Well this all happened while I was offline & so I couldn't make any response. Sorry to revive it yet again, but I just want to make a quick point.

Originally posted by Whowhere:
Terrorists:It is impossible to cause someone to stop believing in something they want to die for. I believe in the UK, and when I am older I will be willing to die for my country when I join the Army or RAF. A terrorist, however unorthdox his or her methods feels he/she is fighting for their country, a set of principles they believe in. Forget what the films say about making them see the light, they wont.

Thank god the state didn't "murder" Nelson Mandella. He was a terrorist, would you have put him in the chair?

j9

Whowhere

20-03-2001, 07:37 AM

Originally posted by j9:
Well this all happened while I was offline & so I couldn't make any response. Sorry to revive it yet again, but I just want to make a quick point.

Thank god the state didn't "murder" Nelson Mandella. He was a terrorist, would you have put him in the chair?

j9

Yours is a very good point J9, and it is very true, to an extent:
It all depends on what you class as a terrorist. Over here we thought what Nelson Mandella was doing was a good and just cause, to stand up against extreme racial prejudice.
But over there the authorities saw him as a terrorist. Over here most people see the IRA as a terrorist organisation, I personally want to see all the members of the IRA who have killed an innocent person punished. But someone in America for example may be sympathetic to the IRA's cause. In the end it all depends on the government and the values of the population at the time. Im sure there are still a lot of white people in Africa who hated Mandella for what he did and would have liked to see him executed.
The same thing applies here, Im sure a lot of people would want to see the people responisble for the Omagh bombing caught and punished to the full extent of the law.
But you also have to think about in these terms as well, how many people did Nelson Mandella murder? How many buildings did he bomb?