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View Full Version : Help With Girlfriends Uni Course - NHS Refusing to Pay


Kiezo
04-04-2008, 11:14 AM
Pretty sure this should go here... Apologies for the bad wording, trying to remember to include the relevant past info for better clarity D:

Right, my girlfriend's studying dentistry at uni. 99% of the time she's in the Glasgow Dental School practising on patients, very occasionally she's actually at Glasgow Uni (and from what she's told me this is more of an NHS problem then a uni one). Anyway her year seems to be the experimental year in terms of the new course, which is totally fucking most of them over but they've managed to put up with it until now (things like, she'll be doing her written finals in May - the exact same paper her flatmate who is the year above her doing last years course will be doing). Her flatmate has had her interviews over Easter, her jobs lined up, and a whole extra year to study what needs to be studied. On top of that, they were supposed to be getting a week before the exams off to study seeing as they're on clinic duty as well as learning new stuff up until right before that. They decided for some unknown reason to bring the exams forward three weeks, meaning they'll be being taught new stuff mere days before the exam and totally fucking up the study plans everyone had. They only let them know this two weeks ago, and were basically told "Oh well, you'll just need to adapt your study plans". Bear in mind the only other dental school in Scotland is Dundee (who Glasgow are in direct competition with jobs wise and who are on the (comparatively) fair and easy old course), meaning the Glasgow students are at a severe disadvantage from the start for their carreers. Students are constantly finding (valid) faults with this new system, which the people in charge agree with, but are only told "Oh, well we'll have that sorted for next year". These are things that are making students drop vital grades and they aren't getting a chance to redeem themselves. Basically only told to take solice in the fact that the next years students won't have the same problem and they'll be able to sit a fair examination and get accurate grades from it.

Anyway, they've pretty much bent over and took that kind of crap all year, but they got the kicker about a month ago; as part of the new course they're testing, their year is being told they'll be doing a rotational system. Basically, they'll spend two weeks in Glasgow, then be shipped off to places like Stornoway, Orkney, the Borders, Dundee (despite having their own local dental school...) to practise on patients there. They were told travel etc would be reimbursed only after a fuss was kicked up, but now they're withdrawing it. This is a course that leaves very little time for a social life let alone for a job (which causes all the students who don't have rich daddy's to take the NHS bursary, meaning they're indebted to work for the NHS for X amount of years). The NHS bursary however, only really covers living costs like food, rent, bills, books etc, so on top of this they now need to pay for travel to places in the middle of nowhere and accommodation there for two weeks, all while paying rent and bills for their flats back in Glasgow. My girlfriend's one of the 'lucky' ones who has the option to move back in with her parents next year as she wont be able to afford the flat as well (she's pretty sure taking out a loan from the bank - not a student loan - is the only way she's going to be able to pay for all this added crap), even although that's over an hour commute into uni, then the same back. It's the Irish students (who make up a strangely high percentage of her year) who are totally fucked. They have flats in Glasgow because commuting from Ireland to the Glasgow Dental School every day really isn't an option, and they're basically being told tough, they need to pay for this extra shit or they can't do the course.

Basically, what's their options here? The higher ups in the dental school are the ones who are dictating policy on this, so who can they take this to higher up?

EDIT: Oh, another thing on the Irish students; they were never told the costs of this would be reimbursed - that was limited to "Scottish citizens".

Wyetry
04-04-2008, 11:29 AM
Student union? When i was at university it got closed down for 3 weeks as the students had a sit in to protest about PhD students being charged fees when they were overseas carrying out research...

We also had a sit in about printing prices in the library.

However i did go to a very policital university.

Otherwise i can only suggest that there might be some kind of ombudsman - or writing to ones MP/SMP....

Kiezo
04-04-2008, 11:38 AM
Student union? When i was at university it got closed down for 3 weeks as the students had a sit in to protest about PhD students being charged fees when they were overseas carrying out research...

Thought of things like that, but there's more than enough people in the course whose daddy's are able to pay for it no problem - people whose parents have bought them massive ass flats in Glasgow just so they don't need to take the NHS bursary to pay rent. They're too stuck up to help the rest of the people who can't afford it, and are willing to pay because they can. Plus, they don't have enough time as it is to study. Taking time out to do a sit-in really won't work.

Prolly gonna try the MSP thing, just wondered if there was a more direct approach that could be taken.

ShyBoy
04-04-2008, 11:49 AM
Sometimes this happens - I was speaking to someone at my uni and he said that Universities pretty much can make up the law as they go along. They're not accountable to anyone, because if you don't like it you drop out - but obviously you want your degree / qualification.

I would take it up with the student union myself, that's what it's there for - to give weight to your complaint so you're not just a little voice. Best of luck with everything, it sounds complete shit what the uni are doing to her.

Wyetry
04-04-2008, 12:09 PM
They're not accountable to anyone, because if you don't like it you drop out - but obviously you want your degree / qualification.



I'm pretty sure that they are being held more accountable though for the numbers of people who are dropping out.

It might also be worth while having a word in the ear of the local press or the TES?

Kiezo
04-04-2008, 12:22 PM
I'm pretty sure that they are being held more accountable though for the numbers of people who are dropping out.

It might also be worth while having a word in the ear of the local press or the TES?

Yeah. Each year they have a certain number of students 'promised' to the NHS post-graduation. Unfortunately with the people whose parents can afford to pay this extra, the numbers are a little too close to rely on them sorting this out after students drop out.

As for the press thing, I'm not sure of the 'ethics' on that. Although they haven't and won't agree to the Hypocratic Oath until they graduate, I'm pretty sure they're supposed to stick to it as best they can throughout the course. Mistakes are overlooked, but occurances where the students goes out of his or her way to break the code of ethics results in getting kicked from the course. It's an area I don't know too much in depth so will need someone to confirm it completely, but wouldn't the student be kicked from the course if they found out who the leak was? If so, could someone like me do it?

ShyBoy
04-04-2008, 12:30 PM
I'm pretty sure that they are being held more accountable though for the numbers of people who are dropping out.

It might also be worth while having a word in the ear of the local press or the TES?

Well obviously they don't want people to drop out, etc. - but at the end of the day the uni makes the rules and it has no watchdog that decides whether they're fair or not, it doesn't have to justify how much it charges you (I pay £3k, I don't get that back in 'value' from the uni in lectures or seminars or support, but I know the piece of paper I get at the end is worth much more...), it doesn't have to justify the lecturers it uses. They could if they wanted, charge us £3000 for a weeks worth of lectures from a literal monkey. And the only remittance is students have to drop out, and not get that all precious degree. Which employers actually care what you did in your degree? It's all about the piece of paper at the end. Maybe I'm too cynical...

Kiezo
04-04-2008, 12:31 PM
Well obviously they don't want people to drop out, etc. - but at the end of the day the uni makes the rules and it has no watchdog that decides whether they're fair or not, it doesn't have to justify how much it charges you

Psst it does. To the government. That's why there's constant debates over tuition fees, and how much they differ between England and Scotland.

Wyetry
04-04-2008, 12:38 PM
Yeah. Each year they have a certain number of students 'promised' to the NHS post-graduation. Unfortunately with the people whose parents can afford to pay this extra, the numbers are a little too close to rely on them sorting this out after students drop out.

As for the press thing, I'm not sure of the 'ethics' on that. Although they haven't and won't agree to the Hypocratic Oath until they graduate, I'm pretty sure they're supposed to stick to it as best they can throughout the course. Mistakes are overlooked, but occurances where the students goes out of his or her way to break the code of ethics results in getting kicked from the course. It's an area I don't know too much in depth so will need someone to confirm it completely, but wouldn't the student be kicked from the course if they found out who the leak was? If so, could someone like me do it?

TBH i'm not sure if it would be enough of an impact of a story if you did it, plus also it's not neccessarily something you leek as it were - it would have more of an impact if it was XXX is forced to drop out of university course becaues of unfair behaviour by the university.

But if you want to do anying in general about making a difference then you need to work out the following.

1) a well articulated statement on what exactly the university have done wrong and why it is unfair
2) who is to blame and or who can make a differnce to this situation
3) if they have violated any codes of conduct either education wise or NHS wise - like is there an NHS target to train XX number of dentists each year for example and then you could show that this type of behaviour will mean that they are jepordising themselves reaching this target ( would be worth rooting around on the DOH website). Or if they are denying people their right to education by doing this or if you could demonstrate that this action would mean that people in scotland are being denyed their right to access good healthcare sysems or something.
4) work out the best way to reach the peole identified in 2) and what will make them change thier minds. So it could be that a meeting of students with the head of the dental school for example (probably adviseabley the first step), and then if that doesn't work more of a campaign with the NUS or press work. If you got the NUS involved then they would probably do somethig with the press for you if they were interested enough in it as an issue - thus meaning you wouldn't be doign it alone and plus getting round the issue of who contacts the press. You could then get it done as a Student Union Press release - some thing like

Student anger over unfair charges etc etc

I hope that helps - but lots of reasearch first and things to back up your point and also getting others on board me thinks - what about the irish students?

Wyetry
04-04-2008, 12:40 PM
Well obviously they don't want people to drop out, etc. - but at the end of the day the uni makes the rules and it has no watchdog that decides whether they're fair or not

There is linky (http://www.oiahe.org.uk/)

ETA - you can always get people on their codes of good practice - most universities will have signed up me thinks....