What does the future hold for first time buyers?

[Curvy_lass]

Now, I've not yet left university, in fact I've just started, but buying a house or some sort of property has been an ambition of mine for a long while, far more so then having children or a superly successful career.

It's not a case of having a huge house either. Ideally, I'd love a Victorian property with all its original features with a decent garden in a decent area, 3 bedrooms max. BUT, this is a plan for 10+ years time and isn't going to occur without a lot of work.

I just wondered how on earth any young person/couples can afford to buy their first home, in this ever increasing high priced property market, without forcing themselves into mountains of debt from 23 years old +.

Should I just give up hope now of ever owning my little victorian town house. Talk about forward planning (I'm 18!) ;)

[Kazbo]

It's still possible to get on the housing market, but yes the days of being able to afford a house outright without a large mortgage are disappearing quickly. But the likelihood is you'll have to start with a flat and slowly move up the housing market till you get to your dream property, takes time and a lot of saving but it'll happen if it's what you really want.

[emilythestrange]

If you believe Gordon Brown and today's speech by the Queen, within a year there'll be millions of perfect new homes built for first time buyers, at massively affordable prices, all in ideal locations. A dream come true!

:yippe:



Or maybe it won't be quite that easy...

[Ricardo R]

I just wondered how on earth any young person/couples can afford to buy their first home, in this ever increasing high priced property market, without forcing themselves into mountains of debt from 23 years old +.I don't understand how people struggle to buy a house. As a first time buyer you'll typically be expecting a modest house/flat - so £150k outside London, £200-250k in London. You need just 10% of that as deposit, now it shouldn't take long to save £15k / £20k / £25k. Put a bit a side, live comfortably/sensibly, and with an ordinary graduate career that should take 2 years - less if you've got a partner.

It's easier if you go for a career where you get an annual bonus - typically sales/commission-based jobs offer this, then you can use that bonus to go towards a deposit, so you can each year see a great annual reduction in the interest you're paying, or maybe start buying multiple places to let out.

I just bought a modest 3 bed house. In 5 years I want a nice Penthouse, 5 years after that a mansion. It's all about starting low and working your way up, not wanting your perfect dream property from day 1!

[Kermit]

You save up the deposit and take out a bigger mortgage, like everyone else has to.

It is perfectly possible to buy now, but you have to be a bit less choosy about what and where you want to live.

We can afford to overpay on our mortgage, and we don't have great salaries, and we have student debt.

[Kazbo]

I don't understand how people struggle to buy a house. As a first time buyer you'll typically be expecting a modest house/flat - so £150k outside London, £200-250k in London. You need just 10% of that as deposit, now it shouldn't take long to save £15k / £20k / £25k. Put a bit a side, live comfortably/sensibly, and with an ordinary graduate career that should take 2 years - less if you've got a partner.

It's easier if you go for a career where you get an annual bonus - typically sales/commission-based jobs offer this, then you can use that bonus to go towards a deposit, so you can each year see a great annual reduction in the interest you're paying, or maybe start buying multiple places to let out.

I just bought a modest 3 bed house. In 5 years I want a nice Penthouse, 5 years after that a mansion. It's all about starting low and working your way up, not wanting your perfect dream property from day 1!

It's not that easy you know. Most grad salarys are 25k or less and a lot of 1st time buyers aren't graduates on that salary either. A lot of places won't give more than 5 x a salary and tbh it's pretty difficult to cover living expenses at 5 x 25k salary. so getting 150k together means saving at least 25k deposit - it's not going to take 2 years on a 25k salary to save that amount, and probably when taken out rent and everything you'll be lucky in 4 years.

Yes if people are buying with partners then it makes life a little easier, but most 1st time buyers aren't at a point in life where they're ready to buy with a partner even if they have one.

[Ricardo R]

It's not that easy you know. Most grad salarys are 25k or less and a lot of 1st time buyers aren't graduates on that salary either. A lot of places won't give more than 5 x a salary and tbh it's pretty difficult to cover living expenses at 5 x 25k salary. so getting 150k together means saving at least 25k deposit - it's not going to take 2 years on a 25k salary to save that amount, and probably when taken out rent and everything you'll be lucky in 4 years.
Outside London, £25k = £18k after tax, £15k after renting (inc bills) cheap accommodation, £12k after food&drink, £10k after going out, £9.5k after transport, £9k after clothes & gadgets, £8.5k after holidays.. so you can save that £25k in 3 years.

Anyway, what's the big deal with having to rent for 3, 4 even 5 years? Then at age 26-29 depending on when you started a graduate job you can own your own place. Only in Britain is there this obsession with everyone wanting to own their own place, go to Italy or Spain and the majority of people - and familes - are happy to just rent. The only reason I have a mortgage is because I wouldn't know what to do with my money without it, there's utterly no reason to own a property, or get stressed about mortgages when you can just rent somewhere nice in the interim.

[Kazbo]

Outside London, £25k = £18k after tax, £15k after renting (inc bills) cheap accommodation, £12k after food&drink, £10k after going out, £9.5k after transport, £9k after clothes & gadgets, £8.5k after holidays.. so you can save that £25k in 3 years.

Anyway, what's the big deal with having to rent for 3, 4 even 5 years? Then at age 26-29 depending on when you started a graduate job you can own your own place. Only in Britain is there this obsession with everyone wanting to own their own place, go to Italy or Spain and the majority of people - and familes - are happy to just rent. The only reason I have a mortgage is because I wouldn't know what to do with my money without it, there's utterly no reason to own a property, or get stressed about mortgages when you can just rent somewhere nice in the interim.

But what do none graduates do, a lot who work for years to get to a 25k salary?

Make that 17k after student loan reductions to start with.

I'd like to see anyone living in a city paying £250 a month rent including bills. My fellas in a cheap flat and pays £300 excluding bills in Manchester. Cheapest I know in Southampton where I live is £350 excluding bills and thats people sharing. A lot of people start a new job and a new phase in their life and want independence. You're then looking at £500 - £600 a month excluding bills.

So you can probably knock another 4k off what they're left each year from your reckonings. I also think a few of your other figures are unrealistic, but I suppose if you're trying hard to save up it's possible. Leaving 4.5k a year meaning 5 years at a push to save up.

Personally I was ok and had 50k saved when I came out of uni, got a 100k mortgage and got on the housing market. I hated renting though, wanted a place that I can call my own, do what I want with, etc. not that I have to ask permision if i want to decorate a room, or worry if something gets damaged.

[Ricardo R]

But what do none graduates do, a lot who work for years to get to a 25k salary?Earning £10-12k to begin with, which often quickly rises, and no student loan to worry about, they're not too far behind graduates.
I'd like to see anyone living in a city paying £250 a month rent including bills. My fellas in a cheap flat and pays £300 excluding bills in Manchester. Cheapest I know in Southampton where I live is £350 excluding bills and thats people sharing. A lot of people start a new job and a new phase in their life and want independence. You're then looking at £500 - £600 a month excluding bills.At uni I paid £60/wk to rent a decent house with friends. Saw last week that at Bradford Uni students can rent houses for £35-40/wk still.

Anyway, fine, presume my numbers are all wrong. I just remember how easy it was to save if you're sensible, costs outside accommodation are relatively low. I made £85k in my 1st year graduating = £56k after tax, and saved over £40k of that - spent only £1-1.2k/month to live in Central London, and bought in my 2nd year, most my friends also bought in their 2nd year. Anyhow, even having to spend 5 years renting before buying your own place isn't that big a deal in the grand scheme of things, will help you appreciate owning your own place even more.

[LuckyStrike]

me and my partner are renting at the moment and it kills me, i hate renting, its a mugs game but we have no other option, we both earn pretty much standard for the area but still cant afford to buy. we will one day tho, when we can afford to save!

[Yeah I no]

it shouldn't take long to save £15k / £20k / £25k.


How long are we talking?? 10 years?!! :p I dont know anyone that could save that much in not much time, unless there living with parents and paying not alot of board and not spending alot.

[Ricardo R]

How long are we talking?? 10 years?!! :p I dont know anyone that could save that much in not much time, unless there living with parents and paying not alot of board and not spending alot.
Well I already gave a breakdown above, let me raise the expenses as per Kazbo's response. £25k salary = £7k tax/NI/student loan repayments, £4k rent+bills (outside London), £3k food+drink, £2k going out, £500 public transport, £500 clothes/gadgets, £500 holidays = £7,500 saved, less than 3.5 years to save £25k = deposit for a £250k pad. If you earn less then in the same time you can save enough to get a deposit for a £150-200k pad, which outside London is a decent first buy.

[Yeah I no]

£500 for holidays?! Im going to newquay next year, and the caravan is costing me £700! Then I've got to think about spending money.

Me and my fella couldnt save as much quick enough for a deposit cos we was renting, so weve had to have 100% mortgage. But a lad who lives near us saved 5k for a deposit cos he lived at home with his dad, didnt pay alot of rent and went to pub fri/sat nite and spent nothing else.

[Ricardo R]

£500 for holidays?! Im going to newquay next year, and the caravan is costing me £700! Then I've got to think about spending money.Lol that's crazy! I went to Miami Florida for a week this summer and spent less than £500 - flights, hotels and food! Anyway my numbers are obviously going to not apply to everyone, everyone will spend more/less on certain things... anyway £700 to rent a caravan, lol I'm sure you can buy one for £5k.

[Yeah I no]

Im trying to talk my mum and dad into buying a static one! But yeah £700 for a week in a caravan is alot, but they are nice tho ;)

Me and my fella are thinking about getting them tourer caravans, so we can go anywere and it should be alot less cheaper!

[Knee High Stripy Socks]

£4k rent+bills (outside London)]

I just added up what we pay for rent and it comes to £5628 a year, not including bills.

My metrocard to get me to work costs me £660 a year, and that's at a cheap rate because I'm a student. That is not factoring in my commute to uni either, which is costing me £30 a week this term but could possibly go up next term.

I'm a student at the moment and I earn £5.52/hr part time. I don't know what I want to do after I graduate, so I think I'll stay at Morrisons full time until I can get a better job. Full time is 39 hours a week, so that would be £10333.44 per year minus tax. (Living on my own that would be OVER HALF my earnings in rent, jeez! Glad I'm not on my own)

What I want to do is have children, but I don't want to do so in a rented house. Having to save up so much to buy one (and to make sure the mortgage could be paid mostly on a single income) is really pushing back the time I can have children in, I'm going to be a LOT older than I had hoped to be when starting a family.

I hate that house prices are so high for that reason. And I hate how "affordable homes" really aren't, and I hate how 100% mortgage, and 5xsalary have become acceptable.

I only hope that we can save up enough of a deposit to be able to buy when the markey topples over like a tower made from building bricks.

[Kazbo]

Personally I think more realistic figures are:
Rent: 5k
Student loan repayments: 1k
Bills: 2k - when you include council tax
Food: 2k
Going out: 2k
Clothers+gadgets: 1k
travel expenses: 600
holidays: 600
Total: 14,200

Leaving a grad total of just short of 4k to be saved on a 25k salary. For someone living on their own which a lot of independent people want to do as a break away from student life.

[Ricardo R]

Personally I think more realistic figures are:
Rent: 5k
Student loan repayments: 1k
Bills: 2k - when you include council tax
Food: 2k
Going out: 2k
Clothers+gadgets: 1k
travel expenses: 600
holidays: 600
Total: 14,200

Leaving a grad total of just short of 4k to be saved on a 25k salary. For someone living on their own which a lot of independent people want to do as a break away from student life.OK fine.
a) From my experience, very very few grads live by themselves when starting out. Some may want to do it but realise its unaffordable. Actually when I say I wanted to live on my own everyone asks why, wouldn't you get bored being by yourself etc. Anyway may be more common to live by yourself for grads outside London.
b) An important point to note - graduate salaries massively, massively rise over the years. A report out today http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/education/7079742.stm shows that the average graduate salary (median £23k) goes up by on average 37% in the first 3 years - someone on £25k now would be on £34k in 3yrs, this is a massive increase in disposable income & savings potential, meaning that if someone lived paying your above figures, moderately increasing their living costs annually, they should still be able to save up £25k in under 4yrs.

[katchika]

I think most people buying as a couple, who both have full time jobs, outside of the South/East or other expensive areas are generally able to get a mortgage.

Quite a few people I know have bought houses, they are not on great salaries but they have got large mortgages and don't live in fantastic areas. Certainly in Wolverhampton there are houses on the market for less than
100k.

One guy I know has bought with a friend..not something I would really want to do but I guess even that is better than renting, maybe.

I've been renting my own place for the last 2 years, which has cost me around £10,000. Ouch. That would have made a nice deposit.

[katchika]

b) An important point to note - graduate salaries massively, massively rise over the years. A report out today http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/education/7079742.stm shows that the average graduate salary (median £23k) goes up by on average 37% in the first 3 years - someone on £25k now would be on £34k in 3yrs, this is a massive increase in disposable income & savings potential, meaning that if someone lived paying your above figures, moderately increasing their living costs annually, they should still be able to save up £25k in under 4yrs.

Do most graduates do "graduate" jobs though? Most people who go to work in career areas like the media, healthcare (excluding doctors and specialist) and charity sectors will not earn anywhere near £34k per annum in their life!

[Ricardo R]

Do most graduates do "graduate" jobs though? Most people who go to work in career areas like the media, healthcare (excluding doctors and specialist) and charity sectors will not earn anywhere near £34k per annum in their life!Yes. I think it's The Times university guide which has the percentage of graduates who end up getting a job that requires a degree, or is degree-level work - it's 80-90% for top unis and 40-50% for poor ones. Also I remember reading that the average Briton earns £40k+ at the peak of their career - that's all Britons not just grads, will be £50k-60k for our generation. Relax, it'll all be fine, eventually!

[katchika]

Yes, but work requiring a degree does not equal the traditional meaning of a "graduate job". I don't believe that the average person earns 40k, no matter where you read it. Seriously. But then I live in the Black Country, where wages are low low low.

[Knee High Stripy Socks]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/7071611.stm

[Ricardo R]

I don't believe that the average person earns 40k, no matter where you read it. Seriously. But then I live in the Black Country, where wages are low low low.At the peak of their career, ie when they're about 40-45.

[Knee High Stripy Socks]

40-45 isn't much help when you want to start a family though!

[Ricardo R]

40-45 isn't much help when you want to start a family though!Well most of the country manage fine on less than that! Kids can cost £5k/yr for everything if you don't send them to public school etc.

[go_away]

My boyfriend and I are saving at the moment until I finish medical school, then we're going to see what can be done. I'd rather chew my arm off than live in London once I'm qualified, so we might end up going abroad for a while. There's no way I could consider buying my own place if I was alone.

[ShyBoy]

It is going to get more expensive.

Every report I've ever seen has indicated population in the UK is booming due to migration, and Gordon Browns pledges for accomodation would have to be increased by several factors to meet demand.

However, it's going to get more expensive for investors too, smaller profit margins and so on - we're heading towards the need for economies of scale to satisfy the demand at a low average cost - a bit like how we used to have expensive unique goods, and now have homogenous cheaply produced chinese goods.

I'm not saying we'll have chinese houses :p but I think it's inevitable there's going to be some capitalising on the fact that many people can't afford to live in these expensive houses they're building, and so cheap, no thrills housing will pop up. Well, I say that, but building companies have a larger profit margin on more expensive houses and luxury flats. You can turn land worth £1,000,000 into 10 flats worth £500,000 each, or 25 flats worth £200,000 each. There's still a good demand for luxury property, since the world has become smaller, and the UK is enjoying a (relatively, compared to laughable america) strong economy, it's making sense for a lot of quite wealthy people to come here, where wages are becomming increasingly competitive and so on.

[Kazbo]

OK fine.
a) From my experience, very very few grads live by themselves when starting out. Some may want to do it but realise its unaffordable. Actually when I say I wanted to live on my own everyone asks why, wouldn't you get bored being by yourself etc. Anyway may be more common to live by yourself for grads outside London.
b) An important point to note - graduate salaries massively, massively rise over the years. A report out today http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/education/7079742.stm shows that the average graduate salary (median £23k) goes up by on average 37% in the first 3 years - someone on £25k now would be on £34k in 3yrs, this is a massive increase in disposable income & savings potential, meaning that if someone lived paying your above figures, moderately increasing their living costs annually, they should still be able to save up £25k in under 4yrs.

a) There were 16 new grads that started when I started in Sept. All but 4 of them live on their own. Interestingly we all started off chatting before anyone had got accommodation sorted and we all said we'd be looking for someone to live with. After those talks died down and people actually started looking most decided they'd prefer to live alone.

b) You keep avoiding my point that not all 1st time buyers are graduates. Yes grad salaries go up dramatically and yes it becomes easier to get on the housing market. But what about those graduates who don't get grad jobs or those people who aren't even graduates. From your own figures we can say there's probably at least 30% of graduates who don't get graduate jobs. These categories of people don't get rapid pay increases, so where are they meant to get extra money to save up - when a lot won't be on anywhere near the salary that we've been using as a base salary anyway.

[BumbleBee]

Several of the graduates I know work as teachers, which gives them a decent wage, but of the others many of them are earing £14,000 a year in office jobs. I work with several graduates for HMRC and they are all earning the same I am.

We managed to get a mortgage in April this year. My boyfriend is older than me (31) and he lived with his parents for many years and saved for a £10,000 deposit on our £115,000 house. The reason it was so cheap is because it's ex-council, but it's in a nice area and I have no problems not living in a 'new build' (which we did when we rented). I honestly believe it depends where you live as to how quickly you can get on the property ladder. When my boyfriend lived in Basingstoke with his parents he couldn't even afford a one bedroomed apartment on his own. He's moved up north and co-owns a 3 bedroomed house. His sister has bought a 1 bedroomed apartment for £130,000 which is £15,000 more than our house cost.

[Ricardo R]

b) You keep avoiding my point that not all 1st time buyers are graduates. Yes grad salaries go up dramatically and yes it becomes easier to get on the housing market. But what about those graduates who don't get grad jobs or those people who aren't even graduates. From your own figures we can say there's probably at least 30% of graduates who don't get graduate jobs. These categories of people don't get rapid pay increases, so where are they meant to get extra money to save up - when a lot won't be on anywhere near the salary that we've been using as a base salary anyway.If you get a low salary, then you have to rent until you either get paid more/get a better job, or get a partner = hopefully ~double the income. I don't see what the big deal is, you can't have your cake and eat it, ie have a low-paid job then complain you can't get a mortgage. There's millions of Britons earning £10-15k and having to rent, they just get on with life, not whinge that they can't get on the property ladder - in the grand scheme of things, big sodding deal, a roof is a roof!!

[Kazbo]

If you get a low salary, then you have to rent until you either get paid more/get a better job, or get a partner = hopefully ~double the income. I don't see what the big deal is, you can't have your cake and eat it, ie have a low-paid job then complain you can't get a mortgage. There's millions of Britons earning £10-15k and having to rent, they just get on with life, not whinge that they can't get on the property ladder - in the grand scheme of things, big sodding deal, a roof is a roof!!

My point is that you said "I don't understand how people struggle to buy a house. ". I'm simply proving to you why people struggle.

People don't chose to have low paid jobs, and it used to be that people with low paid jobs could afford to get on the housing market. This is why there is an issue with house prices today and why people complain about them.

Oh and a roof doesn't make a home btw.

[Ricardo R]

My point is that you said "I don't understand how people struggle to buy a house. ". I'm simply proving to you why people struggle.K... didn't literally mean 100% of the population, I was responding to the OP's "I just wondered how on earth any young person/couples can afford to buy their first home".

[Kazbo]

Since the average salary in the UK is 22k....I think it's safe to say the OP has a point that it is becoming increasingly difficult for anyone to buy a house, particularly on their own.

[Ballerina]

If you get a low salary, then you have to rent until you either get paid more/get a better job, or get a partner = hopefully ~double the income. I don't see what the big deal is, you can't have your cake and eat it, ie have a low-paid job then complain you can't get a mortgage. There's millions of Britons earning £10-15k and having to rent, they just get on with life, not whinge that they can't get on the property ladder - in the grand scheme of things, big sodding deal, a roof is a roof!!

easy for you to say

[Curvy_lass]

Thanks.

I was just after some feed back. From most of the people I've spoken to, I should just start saving as much as poss from as early as poss. I'm not fortunate enough to gain financial support from the parents, as they rent off the council, so we're not very well off I'm afraid. Oh gosh.

Also, my qualified 'Staff Nurse' wage isn't going to be enough to support a house/flat buying anytime soon once I've graduated!!

[g_angel]

You'll get some key-worker malarkey, won't you?

[Curvy_lass]

Fingers crossed eh ;)

[Ricardo R]

easy for you to sayWhat? I rented until I was able to buy a place. Other people will have to spend more time renting, so what. It's not like the quality of life renting is significantly inferior to owning your own property, oh boo I can't paint the wall pink, someone kill me now :rolleyes:

[Ricardo R]

Also, my qualified 'Staff Nurse' wage isn't going to be enough to support a house/flat buying anytime soon once I've graduated!!Find a rich bloke :razz: hellloooo nurse...

[Curvy_lass]

Men and nurses. Seriously mate, the uniforms are ROUGH!

[Kazbo]

What? I rented until I was able to buy a place. Other people will have to spend more time renting, so what. It's not like the quality of life renting is significantly inferior to owning your own property, oh boo I can't paint the wall pink, someone kill me now :rolleyes:

To me it was. Renting always felt like throwing money away and that went against everything I'd ever been brought up to believe. I felt I was constantly walking around on egg shells in the place in case I did any damage. I wanted the freedom of not having a landlord breathing down my neck about things. I wanted the responsibilty of my own place and the security that offers in knowing there wasn't the chance I could be kicked out at any time. I always said a rented property would never be home and it wasn't.

I've lived for a year previously in the area I now live and absolutely hated it. Moved back there now and love it, it is home and I no longer see my parents house as where home is, all becuase I own my own house. So you can say all you like a rented place is only the same - it definately isn't to me and many other people I know.

[Ballerina]

What? I rented until I was able to buy a place. Other people will have to spend more time renting, so what. It's not like the quality of life renting is significantly inferior to owning your own property, oh boo I can't paint the wall pink, someone kill me now :rolleyes:
its not as easy for everyone to move up the career ladder, just because you've done it, many can't. There are also circumstances changing etc that can stop people from being able to.

[Ricardo R]

To me it was. Renting always felt like throwing money away and that went against everything I'd ever been brought up to believe. I felt I was constantly walking around on egg shells in the place in case I did any damage. I wanted the freedom of not having a landlord breathing down my neck about things. I wanted the responsibilty of my own place and the security that offers in knowing there wasn't the chance I could be kicked out at any time. I always said a rented property would never be home and it wasn't.

I've lived for a year previously in the area I now live and absolutely hated it. Moved back there now and love it, it is home and I no longer see my parents house as where home is, all becuase I own my own house. So you can say all you like a rented place is only the same - it definately isn't to me and many other people I know.[FONT="Arial"]Fair does.. I feel the same as I did renting, there's a "superior landlord" who owns the building all our accommodation is in so I think I can still be kicked out if I make too much noise! Also Sky TV dishes are banned. :crying: As for rent 'throwing money away', no different to paying interest repayments on the mortgage- unless you can afford to quickly reduce your mortgage itself you're throwing money away monthly. Anyhow, as shit as people may find renting, I still don't think it's a big deal in the grand scheme of things, there's bigger problems to worry about, you should feel grateful you've got shelter etc etc...

[rachie004]

If you get a low salary, then you have to rent until you either get paid more/get a better job, or get a partner = hopefully ~double the income. I don't see what the big deal is, you can't have your cake and eat it, ie have a low-paid job then complain you can't get a mortgage. There's millions of Britons earning £10-15k and having to rent, they just get on with life, not whinge that they can't get on the property ladder - in the grand scheme of things, big sodding deal, a roof is a roof!!

You are making me so angry that I want to cry

[go_away]

You are making me so angry that I want to cry

It's not worth it :no:

There's no way I'd be able to move back to my home town, even with my boyfriend's salary and my salary as a jr doctor combined. In the early 1980s my dad bought a 3 bedroom detached property in Surrey for £53,000. Just had a look online, and a house down our road with the same number of bedrooms is on offer for £500,000...

[Kazbo]

[FONT="Arial"]Fair does.. I feel the same as I did renting, there's a "superior landlord" who owns the building all our accommodation is in so I think I can still be kicked out if I make too much noise! Also Sky TV dishes are banned. :crying: As for rent 'throwing money away', no different to paying interest repayments on the mortgage- unless you can afford to quickly reduce your mortgage itself you're throwing money away monthly. Anyhow, as shit as people may find renting, I still don't think it's a big deal in the grand scheme of things, there's bigger problems to worry about, you should feel grateful you've got shelter etc etc...

See I don't have any restrictions on my property. It's mine to do what I want with, no one to pay a lease to and so on. I'm not just paying the interest repayments on my mortgage and do hope to make substantial overpayments within the terms allowed on it, so no I'm not throwing money away by having my own property, so it's completely different to renting in my case.

[katchika]

Anyhow, as shit as people may find renting, I still don't think it's a big deal in the grand scheme of things, there's bigger problems to worry about, you should feel grateful you've got shelter etc etc...[/FONT]

I don't like renting. I constantly feel as though the landlord is going to come round and let himself in. Why should I feel grateful I have shelter? Living in a developed country, it's pretty much a basic right, and I don't feel grateful to be lining the pockets of some rich bloke.


to the op, nurses wages aren't so bad. My friend has just bought a house on a new nurses wage. Granted she bought with her partner, but even on her own, she would have been able to get a mortgage on a smaller place. It depends where you want to live though. :)

[Kermit]

I remember reading that the average Briton earns £40k+ at the peak of their career

The average UK wage is a smudge over #26,000pa, and the average family income is a smudge over #33,000pa.

Not for the first time, you are talking utter shite. You grossly overestimate how much people earn, which really doesn't surprise me.

For the record, I'm a Durham grad (so I'm pretty clever, even if I say so myself) any my graduate job pays about #18,000. We can afford to buy because my wife earns the same and our parents gave us a deposit, but our house is only worth #100,000. That wouldn't buy you anything in London.

[go_away]

That wouldn't buy you anything in London.

A parking space or garage perhaps.

[g_angel]

A parking space or garage perhaps.

A nice shopping trolley with a view ;)

[Ricardo R]

The average UK wage is a smudge over #26,000pa, and the average family income is a smudge over #33,000pa.

Not for the first time, you are talking utter shite. You grossly overestimate how much people earn, which really doesn't surprise me.AT THE PEAK OF THEIR CAREER, I said. ie when a person is aged like 40-45 at the very strongest point in their career eg most senior, that's when they're on ~£40k. If the average wage for people of all ages is £26k then £40k at their peak is plausible - most people's wages greatly change with greater experience and seniority.

[katchika]

Can you not grasp the fact that the majority of jobs/careers, will NEVER PAY £40,000???

[Ricardo R]

Can you not grasp the fact that the majority of jobs/careers, will NEVER PAY £40,000???Ooh I really don't know about that. I would think maybe 50-60% of jobs, if you start age 20-25, by the peak of your career (in your 40s usually) you will be on £40k+. Teacher, policeman, army, journalist, etc - you start on maybe £20k but if you stay in the job into your 40s you're likely to move up the career ladder, become more senior and reach £40k. Same with your typical plumber, carpenter - start as a lowly apprentice, by your 40s you're likely to be quite well established and bringing in that sort of money.

I find it hard to believe that City grads make in their first year out of uni more than the majority of the UK will ever make at the peak of their career - there'd be uproar if that was true.

[katchika]

I don't know about all of those other careers but as a trainee journalist I started on £250 a week (before tax), which works out as £13,000. A senior reporter on the daily regional evening paper here gets around £20-£25,000.

Not everyone in life is going to move up to the highest point of their career ladder.

At the moment I'm dealing with job applications for a recycling company. There are guys in their 40s applying for jobs who were made redundant from Rover, they were on fairly decent wages and are now trying to get jobs that pay £230 a week.


You don't seem to take into account in your equation that millions of people in this country work in low paid sectors such as care work, shop work and catering. Very few will earn anywhere near your figures in their life.

[Ricardo R]

I don't know about all of those other careers but as a trainee journalist I started on £250 a week (before tax), which works out as £13,000. A senior reporter on the daily regional evening paper here gets around £20-£25,000.

Not everyone in life is going to move up to the highest point of their career ladder.

At the moment I'm dealing with job applications for a recycling company. There are guys in their 40s applying for jobs who were made redundant from Rover, they were on fairly decent wages and are now trying to get jobs that pay £230 a week.

You don't seem to take into account in your equation that millions of people in this country work in low paid sectors such as care work, shop work and catering. Very few will earn anywhere near your figures in their life.I'm taking them into consideration by saying ~50-60% will be getting over £40k at their peak, ~40-50% are in low paid sectors so won't. Journalism you start low but get higher with experience - if you think at their peak local reporters are on £25k, national journos £40k, section editors £60-70k etc the £40k average is about right.

[katchika]

Maybe, but an average figure is pretty meaningless, considering the minority of people earning a high wage bump up the average.

[Kazbo]

Ooh I really don't know about that. I would think maybe 50-60% of jobs, if you start age 20-25, by the peak of your career (in your 40s usually) you will be on £40k+. Teacher, policeman, army, journalist, etc - you start on maybe £20k but if you stay in the job into your 40s you're likely to move up the career ladder, become more senior and reach £40k. Same with your typical plumber, carpenter - start as a lowly apprentice, by your 40s you're likely to be quite well established and bringing in that sort of money.

I find it hard to believe that City grads make in their first year out of uni more than the majority of the UK will ever make at the peak of their career - there'd be uproar if that was true.


In all the careers you have mentioned it is only the people who get to the top that make that sort of money. However, due to the pyramid structure of any organisation very few people do ever get to those jobs. Teachers for example have to get to deputy head to be getting 40k normally. Many people will start a job in the 20's and whilst they get pay rises and promotions the actual end salary will not be significantly greater when you take into account inflation during their working life.

People have a different attitude to city grads and it's a lifestyle that not many people can hack or want to hack and therefore accept that they will be earning drastically more. However, you then take a company like mine who don't even give London scalings and their grads are meant to live on the same as I'm living on.

[Kermit]

Ricardo, you really do make me laugh. A primary school headteacher, or a secondary school deputy head, only earn about #40,000, and as you well know, most teachers can't be a headteacher. A senior nurse earns about #35,000.

For most of these people the "peak" of their career is in their 50s. A bit late to be getting the first steps on the property ladder, don't you think?

I find it hard to believe that City grads make in their first year out of uni more than the majority of the UK will ever make at the peak of their career - there'd be uproar if that was true.

I think that's the most telling thing you've said. City pay packets have nothing to do with reality, and they haven't had since the early 1980s.

A good friend of ours is a successful grad with RBS, and she earns in a year what I earn in five.

[Welsh Jemz]

its all well and good saying that the majority of people will earn £40k+ in their 40s but most people want to move out well before then, usually late teens, early 20s

also, not everybody is a graduate, quite a lot of people don't go to university!!!!!

i earn £13000 a year before tax, and am in quite a bit of debt so can't even think about looking at moving out until I've paid everything off so I still live at home with my parents :(

[Knee High Stripy Socks]

Oh and as for renting, what about when you have retired? Where on earth would you get the money from to do that? And it's not like we're going to get a state pension, is it.

[leese]

my boyf and I bought our first house last year. (note: I'm a graduate who earns well below the average graduate wage) We've had to make a lot of compromises financially and the property needs a lot of work but I think we've made the right decision as we don't pay that much more month on month than we did when we were renting. That said, now we quite simply wouldn't be able to afford our property - other houses on our road are going for about £20,000 over what we paid. And unfortunately these are going to buy-to-letters and these are first time buyers properties really as they only have 1 good sized bedroom, its ridiculous.

There are schemes where you can buy 40% of a property and rent the rest which I thought was quite a good idea until I saw Dispatches on Monday and they were pointing out all the cons of this. Ultimately all I can say is that I have to be selfish and hope prices don't slump completely or we're f***ed. I don't know what the answer is other than more affordable housing and a clamp down on smaller properties going to buy-to- letters (if that is possible!) - as I feel a lot of potential homeowners are missing on wonderful first time buyer properties because of this.

[Senor Miguel]

house price inflation has already peaked so don't worry about it too much, mortgage approvals have dropped off a cliff because lenders are going broke or tightening up, when you see crazy schemes like shared ownership and guaranteed income on empty 2-bed BTL estates you know you are at the top, just look at the share price of the top homebuilders like barratts, wolseley, persimmons etc....the only thing holding house prices up is london and the layoffs in the financial sector after Q4 earnings will sort that, the only problem is that credit won't be available for much longer so forget about 90-100% mortgages, you will need a serious deposit to get a mortgage from the banks in a few years and interest rates will be a lot higher.....

it's just not worth taking on so much debt when you're so young, especially when there are much nicer places to live and raise a family. i'm on 37k which is ok for london but i'm not even tempted to get an ex-LA highrise 2-bed rundown flat in a lovely "up-and-coming" area like Brixton or Plumstead, which is about all i could reasonably afford.....i'm just gonna travel and save then disappear to SE Asia or NZ and live it up.

[Knee High Stripy Socks]

That's reassuring, Senor Miguel :yes:

[Senor Miguel]

That's reassuring, Senor Miguel :yes:

yeah it is, unless you bought a house in the last 3-4 years :p

[Knee High Stripy Socks]

Yep but I didn't, so that's ok! :D

[ShyBoy]

http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/20d093be-915c-11dc-9590-0000779fd2ac.html?nclick_check=1

The property market is set for a more severe slowdown than in 2005, according to the most authoritative survey of estate agents, which shows they believe house prices are already falling in almost all areas of the UK and even the rampant London market has recently hit the buffers.

New buyer enquiries have been withering for almost a year, the Royal Institution of Chartered Surveyors reported on Tuesday, and now the first signs are emerging that home owners are rushing to try to sell before the market tumbles. New stock on estate agents books leapt 8.8 per cent in October at the same time as newly agreed sales were lower that at any time since April 1999 when Rics members were first asked how their businesses were faring.

Mind you, this is just part of the business cycle. Long term outlook looks grim. I mean, I think the reality will be that, people will accept a 3 bed in out of their means and will settle for rented flats, like in many other countries of the world. I've looked at it more than once and we're experiencing a population boom in the UK. More mobile labour is coming to the UK and making us a world leader in productivity, however the less able labour *cough*dolites*cough* don't seem to want to move out, for some reason. With an increasing demand for housing that is sustainable, but without a good supply of homes to meet this demand, price is only going one way over the long term 25 - 30 years you may have your mortgage for. So if you've got one, don't panic (unless you intend to sell up soon and buy a canalboat), over the long term it should be a very healthy investment, especially in the south east.

[Senor Miguel]

I've looked at it more than once and we're experiencing a population boom in the UK. More mobile labour is coming to the UK and making us a world leader in productivity, however the less able labour *cough*dolites*cough* don't seem to want to move out, for some reason. With an increasing demand for housing that is sustainable (what does this mean exactly??) , but without a good supply of homes to meet this demand, price is only going one way over the long term 25 - 30 years you may have your mortgage for. So if you've got one, don't panic (unless you intend to sell up soon and buy a canalboat), over the long term it should be a very healthy investment, especially in the south east.

you're trotting out all the cliches mate what have you been watching, that's like telling someone to hold onto their stocks at the top of the dot com bubble, sure the markets have recovered a bit since but how much time have you lost?....if you bought your house pre-2002 you'll be okay i reckon, you'll be surprised how quickly the population boom reverses when all the immigrants realise there's no jobs for them and they don't get as many zlotys for their pound as they used to, the supply and demand argument is too simplistic with the housing market (hell who doesn't want a house?) because very few people can afford to buy outright, and when house prices start falling the banks aren't so eager to lend you the cash anymore, at the end of the day it comes down to affordability.....

oh and world leader in producing what exactly? care to explain the huge trade deficit and debt-GDP ratio, even america is more productive per capita and that hasn't stopped them slipping into a recession......oh wait, we've got NS oil exports to keep the economy strong right? hmm maybe not...no surprise Brown has been kissing America's arse, they're all we've got left lol.

[stargalaxy]

Reading all of this, I'm only able to come to one conclusion. Money matters. Money arguably matters more than it ever has done.

[CheeseOnToast]

It's very hard to buy. I didn't read the thread but Ricardos figures were way out to survive and save.

£250 a month or something for rent and bills?? lol

For me, the missus and my nipper just go break even every month costs me about 1500

That covers rent, food, petrol, childcare, council tax, electric, gas, tv license etc, phone, broadband, mobiles

it all adds up!

Clothes! etc

you could go on forever.

IMO even if prices drop they will rise again at some point, and either way, what we are seeing now is probably one of the most defining moments in modern history in the rich/poor divide become massive again in certain terms.

We are almost back to wealthy people renting to poor and no one else being able to buy.. crazy times, go labour. :rolleyes: