Monty Monty Panesar!

[LeicesterLuke]

This first day alone should finally end wheeliebin's test career and prove that Flintoff is just not captain material for refusing to pick him in the first two tests. I'm not saying the first two results would definately have been different, but we might have given a bit more fight, specially the first test when the bowlers were at fault and we couldn't get any wickets...

[Thunderstruck]

Monty you fucking beauty!

5-92 in your first Ashes test? That'll do nicely!

[red88]

Bet Duncan Fletcher is kicking himself now, Monty couldn't of wished for a better start and should of been involved sooner.

[LeicesterLuke]

To be fair to fletcher, rumour has it (and there is usually no smoke without fire) that he wanted to play Panesar last test but was over ruled by Flintoff...

[Lickalotapuss]

To be fair to fletcher, rumour has it (and there is usually no smoke without fire) that he wanted to play Panesar last test but was over ruled by Flintoff...
Well lets do the English thing and give Flintoff loads of shit in the press and try to destroy the best cricketer to put on an England shirt for many years :rolleyes:
How can you say he's not captain material either?? stop bin a muppet.
He's made a mistake (it happens) and now they as a selection comittee have now gone with Panesar.
I would personally have had Panesar in from the start but I can see why the chose Giles, mainly because of experience and experience does go a long way when you are put into pressure situations like the Ashes. Maybe after all the press etc. about Panesar receiving counselling etc. and how the Aussies were going to exploit that they thought best not to throw him into the firingline because if he cracked it would have destroyed him as a player and a person.
Right back to the point, WOOOHOOOO, go on Panesar. Doubt he will be the saviour but fingers crossed he will.
If we win this test, which is still unlikely, hopefully it will put some pressure on the Aussies o maybe get something from the series. Remember a drawn series and the Ashes remain with England.

[Kermit]

Lets see what the Aussies do first, shall we?

54-2 makes me think that its a bowler's wicket.

[LeicesterLuke]

Lets see what the Aussies do first, shall we?

54-2 makes me think that its a bowler's wicket.

Yeah, i'm not saying we're suddenly gonna start thrashing 'em, i'm just saying Monty has proved in a day that he's already a better option than wheeliebin...

[LeicesterLuke]

Well lets do the English thing and give Flintoff loads of shit in the press and try to destroy the best cricketer to put on an England shirt for many years :rolleyes:
How can you say he's not captain material either?? stop bin a muppet.
He's made a mistake (it happens) and now they as a selection comittee have now gone with Panesar.
I would personally have had Panesar in from the start but I can see why the chose Giles, mainly because of experience and experience does go a long way when you are put into pressure situations like the Ashes. Maybe after all the press etc. about Panesar receiving counselling etc. and how the Aussies were going to exploit that they thought best not to throw him into the firingline because if he cracked it would have destroyed him as a player and a person.
Right back to the point, WOOOHOOOO, go on Panesar. Doubt he will be the saviour but fingers crossed he will.
If we win this test, which is still unlikely, hopefully it will put some pressure on the Aussies o maybe get something from the series. Remember a drawn series and the Ashes remain with England.

I'm not disputing that Freddie is a great player. I'm disputing that he's a good captain. His body language is not good when the pressure is on, at time's he's panicked and been tactically inept when the pressure is on and I think being our best player and one of our key match winners, he has enough to do batting and bowling at his best without the added responsibility of being captain. It was the same when they made Botham captain. Plus I think Strauss did a Vaughn-esque job as captain in the summer...

[Lickalotapuss]

I'm not disputing that Freddie is a great player. I'm disputing that he's a good captain. His body language is not good when the pressure is on, at time's he's panicked and been tactically inept when the pressure is on and I think being our best player and one of our key match winners, he has enough to do batting and bowling at his best without the added responsibility of being captain. It was the same when they made Botham captain. Plus I think Strauss did a Vaughn-esque job as captain in the summer...
So 2 defeats by the best team in the world suddenly makes him a crap captain?? Good logic :rolleyes:
We lost the first test because everyone in the side was crap, we bowled poor and we batted poor.
We lost the second test because of an hour or so of madness from the batters.
How Freddies captaincy can be blamed for either is a mystery to me.

[LeicesterLuke]

So 2 defeats by the best team in the world suddenly makes him a crap captain?? Good logic :rolleyes:
We lost the first test because everyone in the side was crap, we bowled poor and we batted poor.
We lost the second test because of an hour or so of madness from the batters.
How Freddies captaincy can be blamed for either is a mystery to me.

My point is not that the losses are solely his fault. My point is that he is not the best captain in the team. Strauss is. My other point is that he is to important a player to burden with the captaincy...

[film_buff]

I agree with you LeicesterLuke, Flintoff is a great player but already has too much pressure on him with having the added pressure of being the captain

[Lickalotapuss]

My point is not that the losses are solely his fault. My point is that he is not the best captain in the team. Strauss is. My other point is that he is to important a player to burden with the captaincy...
And the evidence is where that prooves strauss is a better captain?? Neither of them have captained England enough to decide either way and they certainly haven't captained England enough to say one is better than the other.
Freddie can handle the workload and the pressure, he loves it and you can tell. He loves being the guy everyone turns to, it inspires him. I certainly haven't seen any signs (so far) of the pressure being too much for him or the workload being too much, apart from his dodgy ankle but that has nothing to do with captaincy.
The captaincy adds to the mental workload and to the pressure, as far as I can see he's handling both perfectly. Not saying Strauss wouldn't be a better captain, nobody knows but to say he has too much on is just guessing really cos I haven't seen evidence of that.
He's experimenting with strange field settings and I think he's loving every minute of being England captain. He also in the perfect position being an all rounder that he can inspire the team with big performances both with the bat and the ball.
I bet if England win the series 3-2 (unlikely I know) you won't be saying he shouldn't be captain, give the lad a chance, he certainly wants it and is an excellent character in my opinion to have as captain.

[Loopi]

I have to agree that I don't think that he should be captain. He gets too emotional and that will have an effect on the tactical judgements that he makes during a game. Vaughan was always able to keep an objective view and I feel that Strauss would be the same. I love Freddie (although not as much as Pieterson) but I would just like to see him be able to focus on his game rather than having to worry about what everyone else is doing because I just don't think that he can do both.

[Fiend_85]

He's a loughborough boy you know.

[Jarvey Of Suburbia]

Every bowl bowled well today. Congrats England.

[Lickalotapuss]

"He gets too emotional and that will affect his tactical judgements"
WTF??
Well lets talk about Flintoffs captaincy in the first day shall we?? And when you think about it the pressure really is on at the moment being 2-0 down and he lost the toss.
Harmisons not being at his best so Flintoff opened the bowling himself and brought Harmi on first change, Harmi finished with 4 wickets.
Panesar got smashed all over in 1 over, 2 sixes and 2 fours, a lot of captains would have taking him out of the firing line, Freddie left him on and was re-paid with a wicket in the next over.
There was some more good pieces of captaincy aswell but they've slipped my mind.
All these points people are making about Flintoff and his workload/pressure are all just peoples assumptions, the proof is in the pudding and he's certainly doing a decent job at the moment. If the players as individuals fail with the bat/ball it has nothing to do with Freddie.
Anyway hopefully Vaughan will be back soon and I'd be happy for him to take the captains armband back.

[LeicesterLuke]

I do think the strain is showing on his batting. He could do with a good knock...

[Jarvey Of Suburbia]

Flintoff has turned from a batsmen into a bowler.

The way He got out today was poor, edging a nothing ball traveling at 60mph.

He's got the Athertons.

[Man Of Kent]

Just how foolish does Fletcher look now? Five wickets and the best batting partnership of the innings....

[Kermit]

He doesn't look that foolish- Australia have pissed all over England again.

557 to win? I'm happy.

[Jarvey Of Suburbia]

He doesn't look that foolish- Australia have pissed all over England again.

557 to win? I'm happy.
That makes no sense at all.

What makes Fletcher look less foolish Panesar runs or wickets??

Why would You be happy about England chasing a masive target, are You an Aussie or did the England team come round and gang bang You or something??

[Fiend_85]

He's an aussie.

[Kermit]

If Panesar was so good how did Australia mount such a massive score?

Anyone can be a flash in the pan.

Born in Oz, mate.

[Man Of Kent]

8 wickets in one test. Tell me, how many did Giles get?

[Kermit]

I trhink he should have been selected on form but you're all doing what you always do and heap all the pressure and expectation on one person.

[LeicesterLuke]

8 wickets in one test. Tell me, how many did Giles get?

Agreed. Sure, Panesar is no Shane Warne, but he's definately in a different league to wheeliebin. He proved that in the summer...

[Man Of Kent]

I trhink he should have been selected on form but you're all doing what you always do and heap all the pressure and expectation on one person.

Nah, I think that he's just part of the team - thing is that he's better than Giles. Whilst that hasn't meant much in this test it could have done in either of the others.

Fletcher said that he wasn't good enough with the bat even though Giles hasn't been much cop and hasn't played for ages. Monty should have started, we all know that. Would it have meant that we won? I don't know, but we'd have had a fighting chance. You have to get 20 wickets to win a test - Monty got eight in this one alone....

[littlemissy]

And the Ashes have got back to Oz. (http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/cricket/england/6188783.stm) Not the biggest surprise really. Ah well, there is always next year, guys :p

[Fiend_85]

*shrugs* it was always going to go that way, we weren't ever playing the way we should have done.

Still, Monty is a grand example of why Loughborough is awesome.

[LeicesterLuke]

And so, the ashes go back to their rightful owners! Here's to 2025 when we win them again. Oh and here's to 3025 when England's footballers win the world cup again! :lol:

[Jarvey Of Suburbia]

And the Ashes have got back to Oz. (http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/cricket/england/6188783.stm) Not the biggest surprise really. Ah well, there is always next year, guys :p
2009 actually.

[littlemissy]

2009 actually.
Yeah, I meant next time :p

It was early :(

[Aladdin]

Well that was an Ashes to remember!

The Curse of Sky strikes again.

[Kermit]

We won with a whitewash :hyper:

[Loopi]

"He gets too emotional and that will affect his tactical judgements"
WTF??
Only just realised that this comment was directed at what I said. I think that you'll find that I justified my comment. I made it clear that in no way did I think that Freddie was at fault BUT that as such a major part of the team (being an all rounder) he should be able to focus on his game rather than that of everyone else.

I can't be bothered to justify this further as it's all over now. Never mind. I would like to say that I enjoyed watching it but as it was on in the middle of the night I hardly saw any of it. I'll get to see our lovely boys later this year though.

[LeicesterLuke]

Only just realised that this comment was directed at what I said. I think that you'll find that I justified my comment. I made it clear that in no way did I think that Freddie was at fault BUT that as such a major part of the team (being an all rounder) he should be able to focus on his game rather than that of everyone else.

I can't be bothered to justify this further as it's all over now. Never mind. I would like to say that I enjoyed watching it but as it was on in the middle of the night I hardly saw any of it. I'll get to see our lovely boys later this year though.

You were right in what you said anyway. Vaughn is able to captain without his ego or his emotions getting in the way. Freddie aint...

[Aladdin]

We won with a whitewash :hyper:

"We"? :mad: ;)

[Kermit]

"We"? :mad: ;)

The wonders of dual citizenship mean that my team never loses :lol:

[Yerascrote]

The wonders of dual citizenship mean that my team never loses :lol:

When it comes to footie, well you're fooked then.

[Addict]

When it comes to footie, well you're fooked then.

probably still better off sticking with australia there as well, these days.

[Yerascrote]

probably still better off sticking with australia there as well, these days.

Haha I was actually gonna write that too.

[Man Of Kent]

When it comes to footie, well you're fooked then.

Except they beat us last time we played :(

[Thunderstruck]

We won with a whitewash :hyper:

You would have said that if England had won 5-0!

[Lickalotapuss]

You were right in what you said anyway. Vaughn is able to captain without his ego or his emotions getting in the way. Freddie aint...
I'll think you'll find Vaughan's batting was massively affected when he took over as captain and it took a while for that to be sorted out.
I think now that yes the captaincy did affect Flintoffs performances, hopefully with vaughan back now he'll get the best out of him and we'll win the one-dayers, although we're shitter at them than test matches so it'll be hard work.

[LeicesterLuke]

I'll think you'll find Vaughan's batting was massively affected when he took over as captain and it took a while for that to be sorted out.
I think now that yes the captaincy did affect Flintoffs performances, hopefully with vaughan back now he'll get the best out of him and we'll win the one-dayers, although we're shitter at them than test matches so it'll be hard work.

Yes, his batting was affected, but damn, we need his captaincy. And yeah, I finally agree with you on Flintoff. Hopefully we will now start to see the best of him again now the burden is lifted. Good god, do we need him to get back to his peak...

[Lickalotapuss]

Yes, his batting was affected, but damn, we need his captaincy. And yeah, I finally agree with you on Flintoff. Hopefully we will now start to see the best of him again now the burden is lifted. Good god, do we need him to get back to his peak...
TBH, I don't think you can really judge Flintoffs captaining skills from this one series, he was put in a position to captain the side against the best team in the world, players didn't perform including himself and with that happening there was no way of winning tests against the Aussies and kind of forced him to go on the defensive a lot of the time, he had no choice in my opinion.
Our opening partnership never started with a big total in any innings, maybe 1 innings they got more than 50 before someone was out but thats all. Flintoff, Bell and Collingwood didn't do the business with the bat. Harmison only came into it in the last 2 tests, Giles was poor for the first 3 and Monty did put a bit of life back into the spin department but it wasn't enough, Hoggard had his good days but didn't do enough.
So for me Flintoffs captaincy was bound to be questioned after the whitewash but I believe it was too many poor performances by too many players which lost us the five tests.
But we need Flintoff to perform, its a must and if the extra burden of him captaining means he won't then he can't be the captain, his performances with bat and ball are key to any success England are going to have.

[LeicesterLuke]

But we need Flintoff to perform, its a must and if the extra burden of him captaining means he won't then he can't be the captain, his performances with bat and ball are key to any success England are going to have.

And that's the line that sums it up. Flintoff doesn't need to be captain to drive and inspire the team. He needs to do what he does best, and that's bat and bowl, and others will follow. That is freddie's role. As for the rest of your post, I never said that the performance of the whole team was Flintoff's fault. Everybody cocked up at some point and most on more than one occasion - that much is certain. My point was that while Flintoff had the captaincy and as a result was struggling to perform at his best, this went some way to hurting the team. Like I said at the start of this post, Flintoff inspires the rest, and while he was captain and not at his best, I felt he couldn't do this. He is the catalyst - if he performs, England perform. So there is no doubt that Flintoff's situation was a factor in hurting the team's chances this series - how much of a factor, I don't know...