Politically correct Advent Calanders

[Scary Monster]

Is it just me that can't see the point? I picked up a very very cheap one yesterday but since then it's just irritated me. It's a snow scene without one single little thing that links to the real meaning of Christmas.

Surely if you are going to celebrate Christmas and count down to it you should respect (or at least acknowledge) the meaning behind it?

[satehen]

I have a Cadburys one with a snow scene. Britain is becoming increasingly more secular. Yes, the real meaning behind Christmas was about Jesus being born, but how many people really care about that these days? Religion has become a very un PC subject and were made to feel ashamed that we associate any religious meaning to Christmas at all. I mean some cities no longer display lights that say "happy Christmas", instead they say things like "seasons greatings" because they wouldn't want to offend any non Christians, who could be celebrating a Christian festival. The countries gone to pot. Still the chocolates are nice! :thumb:

[Aladdin]

So what is the real meaning of Christmas?

[HIT]

Is it just me that can't see the point? I picked up a very very cheap one yesterday but since then it's just irritated me. It's a snow scene without one single little thing that links to the real meaning of Christmas.

Surely if you are going to celebrate Christmas and count down to it you should respect (or at least acknowledge) the meaning behind it?
I agree.

You can buy religious advent calendars, I dont know where, I have seen them in peoples houses.

[HIT]

So what is the real meaning of Christmas?
The birth of Jesus.

I know you dont celebrate Christmas for the reasoning Christians, but why do you call it Christmas then? Why not its original Pagan name? I'm not moaning, im just curious and always wondered.

[Scary Monster]

So what is the real meaning of Christmas?

Real meaning in my eyes at least is the Christ Mass, the celebration of the birth of Jesus Christ. There's a bit of a story that goes with it, the nativity story, and advent and all that. Need more explanation or does that ring a bell?

Advent comes from the Latin advenire, meaning to come, it's the time used to prepare for Christ coming.

[Kermit]

It's not political correctness gone mad, its just a reflection that Christmas has become a time to make Mr Visa and Mr Mastercard very very rich, rather than celebrate the religious meaning of the festival.

I honestly don't understand any non-Christian who celebrates Christmas. I suppose they don't though- they just get pissed and buy lots of expensive things they can't afford. The amusing thing is how many people who never do anything Christian at Christmas get pissed off when the council does a "winter festival".

The worst thing I've ever seen though was a chocolate Ramadan calendar in Asda. Way to utterly miss the point- eating chocolate is definitely my kind of fasting though!

[Aladdin]

Obviously many people celebrate Christmas in a way that has nothing to do with religious beliefs. Indeed, the immense majority of Christians appear to do things during Christmas that has nothing to do with Christianity: xmas trees and decorations, Santa, presents, office do's.

There has been a yearly festivity around the winter's solstice for a very long time, going under various names and involving a number of celebrations. Christians do need to realise that Christmas doesn't actually belong to them or is an exclusively Christian festivity.

Perhaps those who feel "un-Christian" activities have no place in Christmas should cease immediately to participate themselves in all such activities. No tree, no lights, no decorations, no office parties, no Santa for the kids, no presents for family and friends.

Or perhaps we should all live and let live.

The really funny and deliciously ironic thing is that those who say non-Christians shouldn't mark the occasion or have time off are actually being anti-Christians themselves. I wonder what Jesus would have made of people claiming to speak in his name wanting to ban others from having time off and to participate in the season of goodwill (like Kermit said the other day) because they did not worship him.

[Scary Monster]

I'm not saying they shouldn't have the time off or anything like that, but simply feel that if you are going to get an advent calander to take you through the season of advent then it should have some links to the Christmas meaning on there.

You'll find Santa Claus comes from the Sammy Claus, who is Saint Nicholas, a Christian saint, so that is in fact a Christian thing to do, as are the decorations, and the many forms that the celebration of Christs coming can take.

I'm fairly sure that most people will agree that Christmas is a festival that celebrates Christs coming to earth, there may be other festivals at this time of year, but they aren't Christmas in the traditional sense of the word. It's worth remembering that Jesus isn't only significant to Christians, Muslims see him as a prophet.

[Kermit]

I don't think he'd have said very much tbh.

If you don't believe in Christ I honestly don't understand why you are celebrating the birth of Christ. It's stupid and pointless. It would be as stupid as me celebrating Eid by completely ignoring the religious element and getting pissed whilst eating bacon sarnies.

Make your own festival if you don't believe in Christ.

[HIT]

What was the pagan name for Christmas now?

[Aladdin]

I don't think he'd have said very much tbh. Really? Do you think that a man whose main message was of love, tolerance and peace would have agreed with supporters claiming to speak on his behalf banning others from celebrating family reunions and being kinder to each other?

That's certainly not the Christ I've read about... :confused:

If you don't believe in Christ I honestly don't understand why you are celebrating the birth of Christ. It's stupid and pointless. It would be as stupid as me celebrating Eid by completely ignoring the religious element and getting pissed whilst eating bacon sarnies. What makes you think I'm celebrating the birth of Christ?

[Aladdin]

I'm not saying they shouldn't have the time off or anything like that, but simply feel that if you are going to get an advent calander to take you through the season of advent then it should have some links to the Christmas meaning on there. Why? Many other things celebrated, done or marked during the Christmas season do not have any Christian link at all.

How about we have advent calendars of a religious nature as well as non religious nature? There, everyone's happy.

You'll find Santa Claus comes from the Sammy Claus, who is Saint Nicholas, a Christian saint, so that is in fact a Christian thing to do, as are the decorations, and the many forms that the celebration of Christs coming can take. Regardless of who the character of Santa Claus might be based on, a puddy fella in red costume who lives in in the North Pole with his elves, goes 'ho ho ho' and drops down the chimney once a year to live presents has precisely bugger all to do with Christianity.

I'm fairly sure that most people will agree that Christmas is a festival that celebrates Christs coming to earth, there may be other festivals at this time of year, but they aren't Christmas in the traditional sense of the word. It's worth remembering that Jesus isn't only significant to Christians, Muslims see him as a prophet. For hundreds of millions of people around the world Christmas has nothing to do with celebrating the birth of Christ. Sorry.

[Kermit]

Who's banning anyone from showing goodwill to family? I'd say that if you need an excuse to do that then you need to seriously reconsider your priorities in life.

I don't understand why anyone who is not a Christian celebrates a Christian religious festival. I don't understand what the controversy about that is.

I do find the fact that Christ is never mentioned at Christmas to be offensive. That's because it is denigrating an important religious festival. If you don't believe in Christ, fine, but fuck off and get your own festival. Call it Winterval and celebrate Visa's annual profits or something.

You don't celebrate Diwali and Eid, I notice, so what is the difference?

[Aladdin]

Who's banning anyone from showing goodwill to family? I'd say that if you need an excuse to do that then you need to seriously reconsider your priorities in life. You know that's not what I meant. And the goodwill is meant to be towards others, not the family (though naturally the family is included).

I don't understand why anyone who is not a Christian celebrates a Christian religious festival. I don't understand what the controversy about that is. There is no controversy. But you keep insisting Christmas is an exclusively Christian festival. It is not.

I do find the fact that Christ is never mentioned at Christmas to be offensive. That's because it is denigrating an important religious festival. If you don't believe in Christ, fine, but fuck off and get your own festival. Call it Winterval and celebrate Visa's annual profits or something. I think a much fairer and logical solution, if Christians are so incensed about it, is for them to return the stolen winter festival they hijacked and celebrate the birth of Christ at the time of year when it actually took place. April would be lovely for it don't you think?

And again, any Christian who is so offended by the way Christmas and does as much as putting a xmas tree in the house or a stocking hanging from the mantlepiece is hypocrite of Gargantuan dimensions. But I'm sure you don't do any of all that un-Christian stuff during such important time, principled as you are... ;)

You don't celebrate Diwali and Eid, I notice, so what is the difference? Er... as said several times now, Christmas is not a religious festival for me or many others. Please cease trying to hijack it all for you.

[girl with sharp teeth]

.

[Kermit]

I celebrate a Christian festival because I'm a Christian. Wreathes and candles and holly are all part of the Christian tradition, as you well know. As is St Nicholas.

Christmas is a Christian religious festival celebrating the birth of Christ. It has no other meaning. Why celebrate something if you don't believe in it?

And so what if the festival was chosen at this time of year, because of the solstice? The Pagans still have their solstice festivals.

I don't care if "millions of people" don't see Christmas as being a Christian religious festival, they're wrong.

[HIT]

Yule. The Romans celebrated Saturnalia at the solstice as well.
Thank you.

When people say "I dont celebrate Christmas for its meaning of the birth of Christ", well why do they call it Christmas?

I wonder why they dont call it Yule?

[girl with sharp teeth]

.

[Scary Monster]

Christmas IS a festival that celebrates the birth of Christ, fine celebrate Yuletide or whatever you fancy, but if you're going to do Christmas then you should respect the Christ side to it.

[Aladdin]

I celebrate a Christian festival because I'm a Christian. Wreathes and candles and holly are all part of the Christian tradition, as you well know. As is St Nicholas. Exchanging presents with others, xmas trees or a fat bloke coming down a chimney with a sack of presents has nothing to do with Christianity. Your relunctance to discuss these particular traditions leads me to believe you do parttake in them even regardless of their 'un-Christian' qualities.

Christmas is a Christian religious festival celebrating the birth of Christ. It has no other meaning. Why celebrate something if you don't believe in it? That might be the meaning for you. For hundreds of millions of others Christmas means something else altogether. I really can't understand how you can claim intellectual property of something abstract that has had different meanings for different people for centuries... :confused:

[Aladdin]

Christmas IS a festival that celebrates the birth of Christ, fine celebrate Yuletide or whatever you fancy, but if you're going to do Christmas then you should respect the Christ side to it. I'm happy to spell it 'Xmas' from now on if people are so bothered about it... :rolleyes:

[Scary Monster]

Presents at Christmas comes from the ones the magi brought to the baby Jesus.

The other stuff isn't necessarily part of Christmas, the seasonal festivities possibly, but not Christmas.

[SuzyCreamcheese]

I havent seen a christmassy advent calender in years. My sons one has the Lego city airport on it, albeit with snow.
The real meaning of christmas to me is being with family, enjoying good food and giving and recieving gifts. I dont care if its christian or not, because im just going along with the hijacked version :yes:
As a non believer in God who also lacks respect for other peoples religious festivals, I reserve the right to celebrate whatever I want, however I feel like it within the law.

[Bullseye]

Exchanging gifts IS part of the celebration of Christmas, as it is rememberance of Jesus recieving gifts at his birth...you know, his birthday is Christmas Day, hence the whole Christian reason for celebrating it.

As for Santa Claus, he is the result of St Nicholas, the gift giving Saint who was a real man. He gave many a gift at Christmas to many a child, hence that tradition. And Christmas trees just came from the German tradition that spread through out the world of Christianity, whats the big deal??? God forbid, aladdin that new aspects become traditional to a celebration, i mean it is almost evil isn't it that times change and the celebration if christmas isn't identical in every way to how it once was at the first ever Christmas celebration. (Sarcasm intended)

[Kermit]

For hundreds of millions of others Christmas means something else altogether. I really can't understand how you can claim intellectual property of something abstract that has had different meanings for different people for centuries... :confused:

It's only ever had one meaning. The name itself is pretty unequivocal. It's not playstationandcookingsherrymas, is it?

*sigh*

[SuzyCreamcheese]

I totally get what youre saying Kermit, but its a lost cause. Christmas has already changed into something fairly unrecognisable from what was originally intended, but in a secular society where people still want something to celebrate, theyve hijacked your christian festivals since that has been the dominant religion in this country for so long.
I dont think theres much you can do about it, and its a shame that it offends some people, but *shrugs*

[Blagsta]

I don't think he'd have said very much tbh.

If you don't believe in Christ I honestly don't understand why you are celebrating the birth of Christ.

That's not what I'm doing when I celebrate Xmas. What I'm doing is celebrating having some time off work, seeing family and friends, the end of the year and (if I'm feeling particularly hippyish), the winter solstice.

[Flashman's Ghost]

Most people seem to celebrate "Xmas" :p

I could be wrong, but isn't the X the Greek representation of Christ.

[Aladdin]

It's only ever had one meaning. The name itself is pretty unequivocal. It's not playstationandcookingsherrymas, is it?

*sigh* Who cares about the name? Do you attend marches celebrating the rights of workers during the May 1st Bank Holiday?

If not, you should be at work instead of disgracefully jumping on the bandwagon of a holiday celebrating workers' rights.

Like Suzycreamcheese just said:

"The real meaning of christmas to me is being with family, enjoying good food and giving and recieving gifts. I dont care if its christian or not.

As a non believer in God who also lacks respect for other peoples religious festivals, I reserve the right to celebrate whatever I want, however I feel like it within the law."

[Scary Monster]

There's a difference between objecting to people having a holiday and a party, and objecting to people trying to take the religion out of Christmas.

[HIT]

Most people seem to celebrate "Xmas" :p
To me "X" mas looks an even bigger sign of Christianity. :D

[Thunderstruck]

To me "X" mas looks an even bigger sign of Christianity. :D

Actually Xmas is quite permissable as a substitute for Christmas.

The early Christians, especially Emperor Constantine, used the Greek letters Chi and Rho (X and a backwards P) as symbols on their sheilds. Thus Xmas - Chimas is generally considered by scholars to be somewhere near the original word for what is now known as Christmas.

Just like Jesus' name was in fact Yeshua which is a phonetic translation from the Aramaic.

/lecture.

[Aladdin]

There's a difference between objecting to people having a holiday and a party, and objecting to people trying to take the religion out of Christmas. Who's trying to take the religion out of Christmas? :confused:

Bring back the Spanish Inquisition at once! There are some heretics about that have committed the outrage of having a good time during a Christian holiday without mentioning the good name of the Lord even once!

Burn them I say! :mad:


:rolleyes:

[Replicant]

PC advent calenders increase sales, as non religious types, and non christians will buy them too.

that's the only reason they exist.

[Deep Fathom]

You can't really say they're trying to actively remove religion from Christmas - imo this is happening naturally because it's celebrated by non-Christians (damn infediles! :p) and this is just a natural, gradual transition which you can't really do anything about without inflicting drastic consequences (e.g. banning Christmas to any "infediles" (:D), which isn't possible anyway because it doesn't belong to anyone, but the Govt I guess - where's their motive, considering the constant resupply of fueling certain business' (?) avarice).

It all comes down to this; the need does not lie in spending so much time considering the "true" meaning of this tradition because it won't change the present. And i don't really think it's that bad. Sure, the religion in Christmas might be diminishing but hey, the meaning is there and I don't think Christianity is heartbroken because of advent calenders not illustrating conspicuous drawings of prophets & the like.

[briggi]

The real meaning of christmas to me is being with family, enjoying good food and giving and recieving gifts. I dont care if its christian or not, because im just going along with the hijacked version :yes:
As a non believer in God who also lacks respect for other peoples religious festivals, I reserve the right to celebrate whatever I want, however I feel like it within the law.

:thumb: I agree completely.

Also, in a very naughty unchristian way I am totally coveting this Lego advent calendar of which you speak :razz:

[katchika]

Kermit, why do you always have to be so deliberately provocative?

I don't see why you care what other people do. If only Christians took part in Christmas celebrations they wouldn't be very big. I'm not really a Christian as I'm from a mixed religious background and have not been brought up as any religion, but I still take celebrate Christmas. I can't really see why that would upset anyone.

It's more a cultural thing to me, a holiday, a rare chance to spend time with family, go out with friends as well as traditional things such as carols, nativity. Winter would be very long and bleak without Christmas to liven it up.

Having said all that I like the religious aspect of it. I've had a few cards with religious pictures on and will try to buy some religious ones myself.

Anyone brought up in this country will have taken part in Christmas celebrations one way or another, whether it's visiting Santa at a grotto or playing a sheep in the school nativity.

[Aladdin]

So much for love, tolerance and goodwill innit?

[Kermit]

If only Christians took part in Christmas celebrations they wouldn't be very big.

I'd disagree.

I should be more clear- I don't for one second that non-Christians should be forced to go to Church and sing hymns and the rest of it. I just genuinely don't understand why people who are not Christians would want to celebrate a religious festival. And it is a religious festival, despite what the shops and the councils try and pretend.

Christmas is a time of partying- I hate the Puritan idea of not having a drink and some fun- but I don't like the commercial bollocksfest that Christmas has become, and I don't like the way that nobody ever mentions the real meaning of it all. It's all Coca-Cola dressing old men in red hats and pawning the family silver so junior can get a X-box, and it's shit.

The Scottish idea of celebrating Hogmanay is far better for those who don't believe in Christ.

[Blagsta]

Because its not a religous festival for most people.

[Kermit]

Why celebrate a religious festival if you don't believe in it?

Christmas is unequivocally a Christian religious festival, in the same way Eid is unequivocally a Muslim religious festival.

Anyone who thinks that Christmas is secular is a fool and is utterly wrong. Even if millions of people think it- millions of people voted for Bush.

[SuzyCreamcheese]

:thumb: I agree completely.

Also, in a very naughty unchristian way I am totally coveting this Lego advent calendar of which you speak :razz:
remember the 11th commandment - thou shalt not covet thy neighbours advent calender!

http://shop.lego.com/Product/?p=7324

[Blagsta]

Why celebrate a religious festival if you don't believe in it?


BECAUSE ITS NOT A RELIGOUS FESTIVAL FOR MOST PEOPLE.

[Fiend_85]

Christmas. It's called CHRISTmas, how is that in any way confusing...?

[Blagsta]

Christmas. It's called CHRISTmas, how is that in any way confusing...?

I'm not confused. I'm aware that the origins are Christian - however for me and a lot of other people, the meaning has changed.

[Aladdin]

It isn't.

It shouldn't also be confusing that Christmas (or if you prefer, Xmas) means a lot of different things for a lot of different people, and indeed for many of them there isn't a religious connotation at all. The name does not matter. What it matters is what it means to people.

In any event the festivities that are commonly known as Christmas are a varied mix of customs and traditions from many different backgrounds and origins. Some are religious, some are not. And therefore, some people people embrace the religious aspect of it and some don't.

[Kermit]

BECAUSE ITS NOT A RELIGOUS FESTIVAL FOR MOST PEOPLE.

No, it is a religious festival, even if people choose to ignore the meaning.

Of course the religious aspect has changed- everyone used to go to Church, and now everyone just goes and spends a fortune they don't have in Toys R Us for some spoiled ungrateful bastard of a child.

[Flashman's Ghost]

To be honest as a non-Christian in a nominally Christian country you'd have a hard time avoiding it. Even many non-religous people sing carols, or will recieve religously themed Christmas cards. And I guess there's not many people who don't realise the religous significance.

But at the end of the day its always going to mean different things to different people, whether that's celebrating the birth of Jesus, a chance to spend time with their family, a time of goodwill and charity, excessive gluttony or just loads of office parties... I suspect many people see it as a mixture of all or many of the above and other things

[Kermit]

People do see it in different ways, I see it in non-religious ways as much as anyone, but to claim that Christmas is not a Christian religious festival is absolutely ridiculous.

I don't especially care what other people do with their lives, but I honestly don't see why people who don't believe in Christ celebrate Christmas. I certainly don't see why they should get time off for it when others, like Muslims, don't get time off for their religious festivals.

I think the whole idea of the Bank Holiday is archaic, though, I'd much rather just have the extra eight days holiday allowance and not have to take four of them in the space of a month.

[Aladdin]

People do see it in different ways, I see it in non-religious ways as much as anyone, but to claim that Christmas is not a Christian religious festival is absolutely ridiculous. I don't think anyone has claimed that.

I certainly haven't. All I've said is that it means different things to different people.

I don't especially care what other people do with their lives, but I honestly don't see why people who don't believe in Christ celebrate Christmas. Because it means something different for them.

I certainly don't see why they should get time off for it when others, like Muslims, don't get time off for their religious festivals. Whether someone has time off or not depends on the employer. Most business close for Xmas, a few don't.

[SuzyCreamcheese]

Thats true, I think people should have the option to work christmas and take other religious holidays off instead if they prefer, but in this country, everywhere practically shuts down for christmas, just like in muslim countries, they shut down for ramadam, whether youre muslim or not.
people also dont have a hell of a lot of choice in whether they celebrate xmas or not in this country. You decide to stop buying people gifts or sending cards, and its taken as a bit of an insult, plus it can be very depressing to see others celebrating when youre not. It takes a strong person to say theyre not gonna do it this year.

[briggi]

remember the 11th commandment - thou shalt not covet thy neighbours advent calender!

http://shop.lego.com/Product/?p=7324

Ah well I already knew that if there's a hell I'm going straight to it!

That is such an awesome Advent Calendar anyway I'm sure even Jebus himself would have a few covetous feelings when faced with the choice between that and crapola Cadbury's Buttons one ;)

[BumbleBee]

I honestly don't see why people who don't believe in Christ celebrate Christmas.



I'm sure you do really ;) . It's for all the aforementioned presents and drunkeness I do believe.

[Blagsta]

No, it is a religious festival, even if people choose to ignore the meaning.

Meanings of things change over time.

[Blagsta]

I honestly don't see why people who don't believe in Christ celebrate Christmas.

It's been explained to you at least a couple of times.

[Scary Monster]

^^ You see to me, that's not celebrating Christmas, that's having a good old party at the same time as other people celebrate the birth of Christ.

The Xmas thing doesn't work for those who are trying to use that as a non Christ version, X or + is used as a symbol for Christ (the cross...).

You can have a good old knees up at this time of year without it being religious, but I struggle to understand how you can say you celebrate Christmas ( See the word Christ in there) without it being religious.

[Blagsta]

Because the meaning has changed for a lot of people.

How many more times do you want me to write it?

[Scary Monster]

I take what you are saying, but I am struggling to believe that people have redefined Christmas as having no religious connection what so ever.

[Blagsta]

That's not what I'm saying. I know it has a religous connection. I'm not religous though, so it doesn't for me. My sister is religous so it does for her. Not that hard to get your head round is it?

[Scary Monster]

It is hard for me to get my head round, I don't get how you can celebrate Christmas, the birth of Christ, without being religious, go for Yule, or seasons greetings, or the christmas season fine, but not Christmas itself.

[HIT]

That's not what I'm saying. I know it has a religous connection. I'm not religous though, so it doesn't for me. My sister is religous so it does for her. Not that hard to get your head round is it?
So you dont celebrate Christmas, you celebrate Yule.

[Sofie]

So you dont celebrate Christmas, you celebrate Yule.

But everyone refers to it as 'Christmas'. I always have done and always will do. And no, I'm not religious; neither are my family.

[HIT]

But everyone refers to it as 'Christmas'. I always have done and always will do. And no, I'm not religious; neither are my family.
I know they do. But Christmas means the birth of christ, Yule is its pagan name.

[Blagsta]

It is hard for me to get my head round, I don't get how you can celebrate Christmas, the birth of Christ, without being religious, go for Yule, or seasons greetings, or the christmas season fine, but not Christmas itself.

I've explained it to you - people make their own meanings. That's life.

*shrugs*

[Blagsta]

So you dont celebrate Christmas, you celebrate Yule.

I don't really care what you call it tbh.

[Scary Monster]

So if you're not religious what are you celebrating? Or are you just having a good knees up?

[Blagsta]

I know they do. But Christmas means the birth of christ, Yule is its pagan name.

No, to you it means the birth of Christ. It means something else to me.

[I'm With Stupid]

You can have a good old knees up at this time of year without it being religious, but I struggle to understand how you can say you celebrate Christmas ( See the word Christ in there) without it being religious.
Because that's the name for the celebration in this country at this time of year, which has been adopted from Christian traditions (that still exist alongside it). Like Halloween is called Halloween whether you are Pagan or not (I assume none of you Christians, that have a problem with non-Christians celebrating Christmas, celebrate halloween?).

If you don't think they're celebrating the true meaning of Christmas, then to you they're not celebrating Christmas, they're just celebrating a traditional winter holiday. Sorry, but it's so annoying seeing people get their knickers in a twist about what word someone chooses to use. It's right up there with, "well gay people can get married if they want, as long as they don't call it marriage." It's bullshit. It's just a name.

Incidentally, do you have a problem with non-Christians wearing crosses?

[Blagsta]

So if you're not religious what are you celebrating? Or are you just having a good knees up?

I've already told you.

[HIT]

No, to you it means the birth of Christ. It means something else to me.
No. To Christians it means the birth of Christ. I cant understand why you call it Christmas, Christmas means the birth of Christ. Either you beleive in Christmas or not.

[Scary Monster]

I don't have a problem with non Christians having a party at Christmas time, but unless I'm mistaken a celebration is usually in aid of something. I celebrate the birth of Christ at Christmas, if you don't recognise Christ then evidently that's not what you're doing, so my question is, you say you're celebrating Christmas, but with no religion, so what are you celebrating, or is it just a party?

[Blagsta]

No. To Christians it means the birth of Christ.

Yes and to me (a non-Christian), it means something else.

I cant understand why you call it Christmas,

Because that's what its called.

IChristmas means the birth of Christ.

Yes. To you.

Either you beleive in Christmas or not.

What? :confused:

[Blagsta]

I don't have a problem with non Christians having a party at Christmas time, but unless I'm mistaken a celebration is usually in aid of something. I celebrate the birth of Christ at Christmas, if you don't recognise Christ then evidently that's not what you're doing, so my question is, you say you're celebrating Christmas, but with no religion, so what are you celebrating, or is it just a party?

I've already told you. Have a look.

[Scary Monster]

Christmas is defined as the celebration of the birth of Christ, that is what it means, split the word down to it's origins and that is what it means. If the birth of Christ means nothing to you then fair play, but that doesn't change the meaning of the word.

[Scary Monster]

I've already told you. Have a look.

I'm sorry, it could be me being blonde, but I don't get what you are celebrating .

[HIT]

Yes and to me (a non-Christian), it means something else.



Because that's what its called.



Yes. To you.



What? :confused:
You dont believe that Christ was born, yet you still refer to it as Christmas which means the birth of christ. Thats what confuses me. Why dont you refer to it as Yule? Thats the non-christian pagan name.

[wheresmyplacebo]

No. To Christians it means the birth of Christ. I cant understand why you call it Christmas, Christmas means the birth of Christ. Either you beleive in Christmas or not.


to me it means a chance to get together with family

[I'm With Stupid]

You dont believe that Christ was born, yet you still refer to it as Christmas which means the birth of christ. Thats what confuses me. Why dont you refer to it as Yule? Thats the non-christian pagan name.
You celebrate halloween?

[Blagsta]

Christmas is defined as the celebration of the birth of Christ, that is what it means, split the word down to it's origins and that is what it means. If the birth of Christ means nothing to you then fair play, but that doesn't change the meaning of the word.

Meanings change over time. That's life. Here's an example - garage used to be a place to park your car. It then took a meaning in popular music of loud guitar music. It then meant gospel influenced vocal house, then it meant fast house with deep basslines, then a mash up of house and drum'n'bass etc.

See?

[HIT]

You celebrate halloween?
No.

[Blagsta]

I'm sorry, it could be me being blonde, but I don't get what you are celebrating .

http://vbulletin.thesite.org/showpost.php?p=1858605&postcount=28

[Blagsta]

You dont believe that Christ was born,

I didn't say that.

yet you still refer to it as Christmas which means the birth of christ.

Yes.

Thats what confuses me.

Why?

Why dont you refer to it as Yule? Thats the non-christian pagan name.

I'm not a pagan.

[SuzyCreamcheese]

^^ You see to me, that's not celebrating Christmas, that's having a good old party at the same time as other people celebrate the birth of Christ.


Well yeah, but everyone moans when you say "happy Winterfest".

[Sofie]

http://vbulletin.thesite.org/showpost.php?p=1858605&postcount=28

which is exactly what Christmas is to me.

[Scary Monster]

Thank you, I was partially being blonde, although the winter solstice is not Christmas, that's the winter solstice and the end of the year is usually celebrated as part of the new years eve celebrations.

Fair play to you, you celebrate time off work and seeing the family and call it Christmas. To me that seems a little odd, I'd call it a bank holiday, but different words to different people.

[SuzyCreamcheese]

Have a cool yule everyone!

[right on/]

[Lacy]

If i'm not a christian do i have to stop celebrating Easter as well? :(

[Blagsta]

Thank you, I was partially being blonde, although the winter solstice is not Christmas, that's the winter solstice and the end of the year is usually celebrated as part of the new years eve celebrations.

Well seeing as they all happen within 10 days of each other, I lump 'em all together. As do a lot of people.

Fair play to you, you celebrate time off work and seeing the family and call it Christmas. To me that seems a little odd, I'd call it a bank holiday, but different words to different people.

I call it Christmas, because thats what it is. It just happens to mean something different to me than it does to you.

[HIT]

I didn't say that.



Yes.



Why?



I'm not a pagan.
You said your not religious, which to me sounds like you dont believe in Christianity.

The point I'm trying to get it across, is that people say they dont celebrate Christmas, but call it Christmas.

[I'm With Stupid]

No.
And so I assume you would be equally confused by any non-pagans that do? Because I'm sure that plenty of Christians join in with the fun.

[Blagsta]

If i'm not a christian do i have to stop celebrating Easter as well? :(

Easter's a pagan festival anyway. :p

[Scary Monster]

Well yeah, but everyone moans when you say "happy Winterfest".

But they shouldn't if that's what you mean, although you can still wish other people a Happy Christmas, if they are celebrating Christmas (in the Christ sense) even if you're not. After all, you'd say Happy Birthday to someone when they were celebrating their birthday, and you weren't celebrating yours wouldn't you.

[Sofie]

The point I'm trying to get it across, is that people say they dont celebrate Christmas, but call it Christmas.

Does it really matter what people call it?

[Blagsta]

You said your not religious,

I'm not particularly, no.

which to me sounds like you dont believe in Christianity.

Well I believe it exists as a belief system. I just think its a rather silly belief system. Doesn't mean I don't think Jesus existed as a historical figure though.

The point I'm trying to get it across, is that people say they dont celebrate Christmas, but call it Christmas.

You've lost me again.

[HIT]

And so I assume you would be equally confused by any non-pagans that do? Because I'm sure that plenty of Christians join in with the fun.
There isnt two meanings to Halloween. Theres no mixed debate like Christmas and Yule.

[Lacy]

Easter's a pagan festival anyway. :p

Is it? I thought it was Jesus? Was Jesus a pagan?!

[SuzyCreamcheese]

bloody easter. Last year it was such a job trying to convince Lenny that people DIDNT come back from the dead once theyd died..... "but Jesus did" :rolleyes:

Easter is about chocolate eggs, rabbits and chickens. What the hell more do we need?

[Scary Monster]

To some people it does, it offends some to hear their gods name taken in vain.

On the Easter thing, there is a Christian festival at Easter at the same time as the pagan one. To the Halloween thing, you'll find there's a Christian event there too. There's a lot of correlation on the dates of the festivals because of the way Christianity was introduced across Europe.

[Lacy]

To some people it does, it offends some to hear their gods name taken in vain.

On the Easter thing, there is a Christian festival at Easter at the same time as the pagan one. To the Halloween thing, you'll find there's a Christian event there too. There's a lot of correlation on the dates of the festivals because of the way Christianity was introduced across Europe.

Ah i see. For a minute there i thought Jesus was a witch.

[HIT]

I'm not particularly, no.



Well I believe it exists as a belief system. I just think its a rather silly belief system. Doesn't mean I don't think Jesus existed as a historical figure though.



You've lost me again.
I see, I thought you were totally didnt believe there was Jesus.

I wernt digging at you in particular, im just saying people celebrate Christmas (meaning the birth of Christ), but dont celebrate the birth of Christ, yet still call it Christmas.

[SuzyCreamcheese]

well does anyone care if pagans are offended that the Christians took over their festivals?
Festivals change and move on according to the time we live in. Its happened before, itll happen again.

[Scary Monster]

Ah i see. For a minute there i thought Jesus was a witch.

:lol: Thanks for that, you stopped me from getting completely pissed off. :D

[I'm With Stupid]

There isnt two meanings to Halloween. Theres no mixed debate like Christmas and Yule.
Yes there is. There is the pagan religious element to it, and the secular/commercial element to it, just like Christmas. I don't see many people carrying out rituals to represent the end of summer and ward off evil spirits.

[Scary Monster]

I don't see many people carrying out rituals to represent the end of summer and ward off evil spirits.
I see loads, you not noticed those irritating people that insist on dressing up in costumes and carve pumpkins?

[HIT]

Yes there is. There is the pagan religious element to it, and the secular/commercial element to it, just like Christmas. I don't see many people carrying out rituals to represent the end of summer and ward off evil spirits.
Is there another meaning to the 31st of October. I always thought it was just Halloween.

[I'm With Stupid]

I see loads, you not noticed those irritating people that insist on dressing up in costumes and carve pumpkins?
And how many of them realise that that's the reason behind the tradition?

[Scary Monster]

Does it matter?

[I'm With Stupid]

Does it matter?
No, that's the point. It doesn't matter that people call it Christmas when they have a break off work, spend time with their family, exchange gifts, decorate trees, without a mention of Jesus either.

[Blagsta]

But they shouldn't if that's what you mean, although you can still wish other people a Happy Christmas, if they are celebrating Christmas (in the Christ sense) even if you're not. After all, you'd say Happy Birthday to someone when they were celebrating their birthday, and you weren't celebrating yours wouldn't you.

Why does it matter?

[Blagsta]

Is it? I thought it was Jesus? Was Jesus a pagan?!

Eggs, rabbits, death & rebirth, the timing (The first Sunday after the first full moon after the Spring Equinox) - looks pagan to me.

[Blagsta]

I see, I thought you were totally didnt believe there was Jesus.

I wernt digging at you in particular, im just saying people celebrate Christmas (meaning the birth of Christ), but dont celebrate the birth of Christ, yet still call it Christmas.

So what?

[Lacy]

Eggs, rabbits, death & rebirth, the timing (The first Sunday after the first full moon after the Spring Equinox) - looks pagan to me.

Ah. I thought that was just something that got made up. Didn't realise it was cos of them.

[Blagsta]

Is there another meaning to the 31st of October. I always thought it was just Halloween.

All Saint's Day if you're Christian, Samhain if you're pagan.

[Blagsta]

Ah. I thought that was just something that got made up. Didn't realise it was cos of them.

The symbolism and timing is all about nature coming back to life after winter.

[Lacy]

The symbolism and timing is all about nature coming back to life after winter.

What eggs? I see. It's all making sense now.

[Blagsta]

What eggs? I see. It's all making sense now.

Yep - fertility symbol, eggs.

[Lacy]

Yep - fertility symbol, eggs.

And the chocolate?

[Scary Monster]

Mr Cadbury!

[Blagsta]

And the chocolate?

Aphrodisiac.

(actually, not sure about the chocolate. Its a relatively new thing anyway, chocolate eggs. Easter eggs used to be painted eggs.)

[katralla]

bloody easter. Last year it was such a job trying to convince Lenny that people DIDNT come back from the dead once theyd died..... "but Jesus did" :rolleyes:

Easter is about chocolate eggs, rabbits and chickens. What the hell more do we need?

That conversation would have been fun... not!

[Lacy]

Aphrodisiac.

(actually, not sure about the chocolate. Its a relatively new thing anyway, chocolate eggs. Easter eggs used to be painted eggs.)

Lol. Think i'm gonna get me a painted egg next year.

[BumbleBee]

I'm quite shallow; I don't have a religion but I will quite happily have all the days off that I am allowed because it is someone's religious festival. A chance not to go to work is always welcome in my world! If that offends, then so be it. I expect that all you Christians will be attending your Church over the festive period? Thought not...

[Scary Monster]

You're welcome to the time off work for any festival you fancy, I have no problem with that at all. Personally I will be celebrating Christmas for it's original meaning, and yes I will definitely be going to church.

[HIT]

I like going to church on Christmas eve. The Christingle (sp?)

[Blagsta]

I think its a bit silly to talk about the "original" meaning of Christmas, when the date was from the Roman festival of "Dies Natalis Solis Invicti" and the winter solstice. It wasn't a major Christian festival until the middle ages, but its popularity differed after the Reformation, depending on whether you were Protestant or Catholic.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christmas

[BumbleBee]

:chin: I'm going to church too... honest guv.

[SuzyCreamcheese]

I used to like going to midnight mass at christmas but only because it meant I could open my presents at midnight.

[Ballerina]

As suzy said, it's part of culture/tradition more than religion now. It's not like you can get away from it.

[bluewisdom]

I expect that all you Christians will be attending your Church over the festive period?Why do you ask?

[katchika]

I'd disagree.

Christmas is a time of partying- I hate the Puritan idea of not having a drink and some fun- but I don't like the commercial bollocksfest that Christmas has become, and I don't like the way that nobody ever mentions the real meaning of it all. It's all Coca-Cola dressing old men in red hats and pawning the family silver so junior can get a X-box, and it's shit.
.

It depends how you define Christian. If you mean church goers, people who pray and define themselves as Christian, I think it's fair to say they are in a minority.

I think people do mention the meaning of it and you don't need to believe in Jesus to appreciate the religious meaning of Christmas. You don't need to be a devout believer in anything in order to take part in a celebration. eg when it's divali, there were big celebrations in Birmingham with fireworks, etc. This was open to all and a lot of white english people went and were welcome to go to take part, despite not being hindu/sikh. I think it's nice when people from different religions and cultures take part in celebrations.

[CheeseOnToast]

I'm going OT for a sec

Kermit, why do you always refer to kids that get lots of gifts or money spent on them as "ungrateful bastards of children" etc

And the same the farepak issues, you say "Some spoilt little shits aren't going to get the latest trainers and PS3 etc" ....

No offence but what the fuck has it got to do with you, those people didn't deserve to lose their money and it isn't the CHILDS fault for being spoilt?

It's the parents job to teach them to be grateful etc..