Veiled woman to deliver Channel 4's Xmas message

[Aladdin]

A veiled Muslim woman will deliver this year's alternative Christmas speech on Channel 4, the broadcaster has said.
Khadija, a Zimbabwean-born British citizen who has been wearing the full veil - or niqab - for 10 years, has been given the slot.

The message will reflect a year in which the wearing of religious clothing and symbols have "dominated the news agenda", said a Channel 4 spokesman. http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/entertainment/6210324.stm


Good on C4! :D

*awaits the response of the Daily Express*

[Kermit]

Independent television is a load of shite that never does anything of worth ;)

[VinylVicky]

I find it a bit weird to be honet ut hey ho, who cares

[Aladdin]

Independent television is a load of shite that never does anything of worth ;) :D

[HIT]

Muslim to deliver Christmas message. lol

[squeal]

Musllim's don't even celebrate Christmas so why does she get the hounour?

Doesn't make sense to me.

[HIT]

Musllim's don't even celebrate Christmas so why does she get the hounour?

Doesn't make sense to me.
Probably some equal right BS.

[squeal]

Probably some equal right BS.

Yeah but that is becoming a joke. Celebrating Christmas is a British Christian celebration, it's just another day to them and we'll have to listen extra heard if anyone bothers watching it because you can't see her mouth to understand better what she is saying!

[Toadborg]

Have you two ever seen the Channel 4 alternative Xmas message before?

The word 'alternative' should give you a clue here......

[HIT]

Have you two ever seen the Channel 4 alternative Xmas message before?

The word 'alternative' should give you a clue here......
The word Christ in Christmas should be a bigger clue.

[squeal]

Have you two ever seen the Channel 4 alternative Xmas message before?

The word 'alternative' should give you a clue here......

Yes but you would think it would be "alternatives" that actually celebrate Christmas.

[Renzo]

The word Christ in Christmas should be a bigger clue.

Don't be such a moron.

Past people doing it have included Marge Simpson

Its not a serious thing.

[Kermit]

Define "celebrating" Christmas.

Wheeling out Brenda and standing her in front of a plastic tree isn't very Christmassy either, folks.

[Aladdin]

The word Christ in Christmas should be a bigger clue. Actually Christmas was a pagan festival before it was adopted by Christianity.

Millions of people who celebrate Christmas are of other religious denominations, or of none at all. Christmas can mean different things to different people, and you do not need to be a Christian to wish peace upon others, love the neighbour etc etc.

As for Channel 4, it is simply a stunt. Though one with a political message. It is a nice antidote to the bullshit we have had to put up with from some people in this country of late, not least the Nazi-racist Daily Express and its thinly-disguised campaign to have the veil banned in Britain.

[HIT]

Define "celebrating" Christmas.

Wheeling out Brenda and standing her in front of a plastic tree isn't very Christmassy either, folks.
Alot of people including my father celebrate Christmas for its true meaning. I dont think its appropriate that Muslims have anything to do with a celebration of Christianity how "alternative" it might be. I cant begin to imagine if the shoe was on the other foot. Oh wait yes I can, more riots.

Just IMO

[HIT]

Actually Christmas was a pagan festival before it was adopted by Christianity.

Millions of people who celebrate Christmas are of other religious denominations, or of none. Christmas can mean different things to different people.

As for Channel 4, it is simply a stunt. Though one with a political message. It is a nice antidote to the bullshit we have had to put up with from some people in this country of late, not least the Nazi-racist Daily Express and its thinly-disguised campaign to have the veil banned in Britain.
True. But its true meaning now is the birth of the son of god.

[squeal]

Define "celebrating" Christmas.



Christmas is a holiday in the Christian calendar, on the 25th December, which celebrates the birth of Jesus.

[Aladdin]

True. But its true meaning now is the birth of the son of god. Not for me and millions of others, it is not.

[squeal]

Not for me and millions of others, it is not.

Are you thinking of presents instead? :p

[HIT]

Not for me and millions of others, it is not.
Easter is another christian celebration, but I guess for you its all about the Easter bunny. Everyone can have there opinion on what they think about xmas, for millions its put up lights and have a good time, billions others its the true meaning there celebrating.

[Kermit]

Christmas is a Christian celebration and anyone who isn't a Christian has no place celebrating it.

I would allow Muslims to take the equivalent amount of time off at Eid, Hindus at Diwali, etc, but Christmas is for Christians.

It's not a case of the "true" meaning- it is the only meaning.

[squeal]

Christmas is a Christian celebration and anyone who isn't a Christian has no place celebrating it.

I would allow Muslims to take the equivalent amount of time off at Eid, Hindus at Diwali, etc, but Christmas is for Christians.

It's not a case of the "true" meaning- it is the only meaning.

So are you saying this Muslim should not be allowed to do this speech because she does not celebrate Christmas?

[Kermit]

No, I'm not saying that. The Christmas message is just a message, and as I say, the Queen has got chuff all to do with it too.

If you don't believe in it you shouldn't be celebrating it, though. It's as stupid as me celebrating Eid by getting a big barrel of beer and some pork chops for tea.

[Man Of Kent]

True. But its true meaning now is the birth of the son of god.

How can a "true" meaning change?

The "true" meaning of the winter celebrations is the solstice, it was hijacked by the Christian faith. Accept that and perhaps we can avoid the usual hyperbole about "winterval" etc ad nauseum

[Aladdin]

Easter is another christian celebration, but I guess for you its all about the Easter bunny. Everyone can have there opinion on what they think about xmas, for millions its put up lights and have a good time, billions others its the true meaning there celebrating. Sure. But that doesn't mean only a Christian person can have and deliver a Christmas message.

Countless heads of State, Presidents and Prime Ministers will deliver a traditional Christmas messages. Most of them will not be officially associated with the Church, and indeed some of them will not even be Christians, or even if they are will be talking about non-Christian issues. Do you think it's wrong for them to deliver a Christmas message then?

[Aladdin]

Christmas is a Christian celebration and anyone who isn't a Christian has no place celebrating it. You what?

So you are suggesting I shouldn't send cards to friends, have family reunions, office parties, exchange presents with loved ones and friends, try to be extra kind to others, wish peace upon my fellow men and gather together for a nice meal if I am not a Christian?

How do you work that one out, exactly?

Anyways, seeing as office parties, greeting cards, Xmas trees and decorations and exchanging presents have absolutely nothing to do with celebrating the birth of the son of God either, I trust you refuse to participate in any of those activities.

[Wyetry]

Islam recognises Jesus as a phrophet and worships the same God as Christian's, Islam is merely an extension of christianity in the same way that christianity is an extension of Judeisum.

Isn't part of being a christian respecting other people and listening to what they have to say rather than writing them off before you've listend.

I am neither christian nor muslim yet I feel qualified (and have the degree to prove it) to comment on both.......

[Wyetry]

Christmas is a Christian celebration and anyone who isn't a Christian has no place celebrating it.



DO you go to Church at christmas?

[Jim V]

Are people being really dim today - it's a Muslim woman in a veil because that's seen as the biggest alternative to the Queen this year, just as in the past it was Ali G when he was seen as representing negative youth culture.

It's got nothing to do with equal rights - it's got everything to do with laughing at Christmas traditions - and good, if the evidence of what Christians believe from this thread is that everyone who doesn't worship their god should be excluded from a national celebration.

[Replicant]

Christmas (or at least yuletide) was once pagan, stolen by the christians.

I am neither pagan nor christian. I celebrate christmas as a time for giving and being with the family, which I think is a good enough reason.

[HIT]

Are people being really dim today - it's a Muslim woman in a veil because that's seen as the biggest alternative to the Queen this year, just as in the past it was Ali G when he was seen as representing negative youth culture.

It's got nothing to do with equal rights - it's got everything to do with laughing at Christmas traditions - and good, if the evidence of what Christians believe from this thread is that everyone who doesn't worship their god should be excluded from a national celebration.
It isnt going to be a laugh, its most likely going to be a rant about veils and whatnot.

[Jim V]

It'll be laughing at Christmas - not necessarily being funny.

And since when is Christmas British as some people mention here? Last time I checked God chose an Arab country to recieve the son of god, not anyone in the west.

[HIT]

Islam recognises Jesus as a phrophet and worships the same God as Christian's, Islam is merely an extension of christianity in the same way that christianity is an extension of Judeisum.

Isn't part of being a christian respecting other people and listening to what they have to say rather than writing them off before you've listend.

I am neither christian nor muslim yet I feel qualified (and have the degree to prove it) to comment on both.......
Except Christmas is seen as Jesus the son of god being born. Muslims dont belive he is the son of god. Or do they?

[briggi]

Surely the Winter Solstice is December 21st/22nd? :confused:

I think it's a little... unusual, though sure it's excellent C4 publicity so I'm not remotely surprised. I take issue with the idea that the alternative Christmas message isn't supposed to be a remotely serious one - whether given by the queen or whoever. Yes, Channel 4 have put a "comedic" (though that in itself is debateable) slant on it some years but you couldn't say that the message delivered by Doreen & Neville Lawrence was - for example - a piss take or anecdotal way to waste a few minutes.

[SuzyCreamcheese]

im only in it for the money

[Jim V]

Surely the Winter Solstice is December 21st/22nd? :confused:

I think it's a little... unusual, though sure it's excellent C4 publicity so I'm not remotely surprised. I take issue with the idea that the alternative Christmas message isn't supposed to be a remotely serious one - whether given by the queen or whoever. Yes, Channel 4 have put a "comedic" (though that in itself is debateable) slant on it some years but you couldn't say that the message delivered by Doreen & Neville Lawrence was - for example - a piss take or anecdotal way to waste a few minutes.

Yeah, absolutely - just making a point about the value of an alternative view.

Hopefully the message will actually promote some of tolerance that seems in short supply from some religious groups - Chrisitians and other religions - at the moment.

[Wyetry]

Except Christmas is seen as Jesus the son of god being born. Muslims dont belive he is the son of god. Or do they?

Muslims don't accept the Trinity but they do belive he was chosen by god to spread his message on earth - in much the same way as Muhammed was.

[Toadborg]

Alot of people including my father celebrate Christmas for its true meaning. I dont think its appropriate that Muslims have anything to do with a celebration of Christianity how "alternative" it might be. I cant begin to imagine if the shoe was on the other foot. Oh wait yes I can, more riots.

Just IMO

That would be why muslim student groups organise fasts for charity and meals for the end of ramadan that are open to everyone?

Moron.......

You might as well criticise Coca-Cola for using Father Christmas as the symbol of christmas........

[wheresmyplacebo]

Musllim's don't even celebrate Christmas so why does she get the hounour?

Doesn't make sense to me.


you call 'santa' and poor quality music/tv a religious holidays, for me im no christian i see xmas as a chance to get together with family and relax, all i ask for in regards to presents is simple but nice presents like the odd film or cd

[wheresmyplacebo]

Christmas is a Christian celebration and anyone who isn't a Christian has no place celebrating it.

I would allow Muslims to take the equivalent amount of time off at Eid, Hindus at Diwali, etc, but Christmas is for Christians.

It's not a case of the "true" meaning- it is the only meaning.


not really, considering where the xmas holiday is based ie the assimilation of the pagan holidays - so nowadays it is a odd holiday in that for some it's a religious do, for some its a cultural thing - i dont believe in christ god or anything like that however it works as a bringing people together holiday as in the words of the manics
'we love the winter it brings us closer together'

i like Xmas in futurama :thumb: works really well

[wheresmyplacebo]

Muslims don't accept the Trinity but they do belive he was chosen by god to spread his message on earth - in much the same way as Muhammed was.


they see him as one of many prophets, from talking to a few people knowledgable on the koran, but only a minor one

[Sofie]

for me im no christian i see xmas as a chance to get together with family and relax, all i ask for in regards to presents is simple but nice presents like the odd film or cd

I'm also not a Christian, but this also what it means to me.

[Aladdin]

And since when is Christmas British as some people mention here? Last time I checked God chose an Arab country to recieve the son of god, not anyone in the west. :D

Reminds me of a comment some American fruitcake made once regarding not being able to speak foreign languages: "If English is good enough for Jesus, it's good enough for me!"

[wheresmyplacebo]

No, I'm not saying that. The Christmas message is just a message, and as I say, the Queen has got chuff all to do with it too.

If you don't believe in it you shouldn't be celebrating it, though. It's as stupid as me celebrating Eid by getting a big barrel of beer and some pork chops for tea.


what do you mean 'celebrate'? it's a national cultural holiday

[HIT]

That would be why muslim student groups organise fasts for charity and meals for the end of ramadan that are open to everyone?

Moron.......

You might as well criticise Coca-Cola for using Father Christmas as the symbol of christmas........

And Christians dont organise charity fund raising all year around?

The point I am making before you went off topic is that Christmas is seen in the world as a Christian event, yes its also seen as a family event as well. I dont think its appropriate on having a Muslim (or any religion) talk about how Muslims have been penalized on veils at a time of year where its considered as a Christian event. The same as it isn't appropriate if a Christian gave the same message at the time of Ramadan.

[Aladdin]

I dont think its appropriate on having a Muslim (or any religion) talk about how Muslims have been penalized on veils at a time of year where its considered as a Christian event. But you don't know what she's going to be talking about.

In any case, even the traditional message given by the Queen herself talks of many things, from multiculturalism to terrorism to war to many other issues. No subject is taboo, and it does not matter who the speaker is.

[Toadborg]

And Christians dont organise charity fund raising all year around?

The point I am making before you went off topic is that Christmas is seen in the world as a Christian event, yes its also seen as a family event as well. I dont think its appropriate on having a Muslim (or any religion) talk about how Muslims have been penalized on veils at a time of year where its considered as a Christian event. The same as it isn't appropriate if a Christian gave the same message at the time of Ramadan.

What did people stop criticising Islam over Ramadan?

Can't say i noticed, very strange! :rolleyes:

[HIT]

But you don't know what she's going to be talking about.

In any case, even the traditional message given by the Queen herself talks of many things, from multiculturalism to terrorism to war to many other issues. No subject is taboo, and it does not matter who the speaker is.
Didn't the first post say she will be mentioning veils?

[HIT]

What did people stop criticising Islam over Ramadan?

Can't say i noticed, very strange! :rolleyes:
I dont know, enlighten me?

[Aladdin]

Didn't the first post say she will be mentioning veils? Yes you're right. My bad.

Still, as I said I don't believe any issue (within reason) is taboo, and it certainly doesn't matter who delivers the message.

[Kermit]

what do you mean 'celebrate'? it's a national cultural holiday

It's a Christian cultural holiday.

I have no issue with a Muslim doing this speech- great for tolerance- but Christmas is a Christian holiday, not a Pagan one or a Pastafarian one. The clue is in the name, folks.

I don't think Christmas should be "inclusive"- people who celebrate other Gods should get their time off at their festival.

[I'm With Stupid]

:D

Reminds me of a comment some American fruitcake made once regarding not being able to speak foreign languages: "If English is good enough for Jesus, it's good enough for me!"
:lol: Classic.

[I'm With Stupid]

It's a Christian cultural holiday.
Well actually, it's a Christian religious holiday, and a British/Western cultural holiday.

[Replicant]

Well actually, it's a Christian religious holiday, and a British/Western cultural holiday.


:yes:

[Blagsta]

Celebrating Christmas is a British Christian celebration,

Do they not celebrate Xmas in other countries? :confused:

[Blagsta]

Easter is another christian celebration,

I think you mean that Easter is another pagan celebration. Eggs, bunnies, death & rebirth, even the timing of it (something to do with the new moon and the equinox). Hmmmmmmmm.

[bluewisdom]

Will people please stop refering to Christmas as a British/ National holiday? It's an INTERNATIONAL holiday for fucks sake!

[I'm With Stupid]

Will people please stop refering to Christmas as a British/ National holiday? It's an INTERNATIONAL holiday for fucks sake!
Stating that it's part of british culture doesn't make it any less part of the culture of another country. The same with Halloween. It's part of British culture. It's part of American culture. It's part of Western culture. None of these statements overrides the other. Yes Christmas is an international holiday. It's also a British holiday.

[bluewisdom]

And honeslty kermit, what are you on about? It's quite obvious that by now -sociologically speaking- Christmas has trascended its religious significance to being a cultural tradition for many countries in the world. But even so the 'true spirit' or whatever you want to call it keeps being one about peace and love for the world. Even if many people who don't believe in God or Jesus want to celebrate that, of course it's a good thing. And honestly, values like peace and love sound pretty Christian to me.

[Kermit]

Peace and love? It seems to be about nothing more than rampant consumerism.

Look at how everyone was supposed to feel guilty because some kids won't get loads of crap this christmas because a company went bust.

[bluewisdom]

Stating that it's part of british culture doesn't make it any less part of the culture of another country. The same with Halloween. It's part of British culture. It's part of American culture. It's part of Western culture. None of these statements overrides the other. Yes Christmas is an international holiday. It's also a British holiday. Yeah, sure one statement doesn't override the other technically, but it's a matter of where you put the accent on.

If something was born in the UK (like Halloween) and then it expanded to other countries and regions then, sure, I wouldn't have a problem with you saying it was a British tradition because even if it is celebrated in other countries, the first thing that pops to mind is that it is British. But for a feast like Christmas which was imported from another region saying in first place that it is British, sounds a bit ethnocentric to me, that's all.

[bluewisdom]

Peace and love? It seems to be about nothing more than rampant consumerism.

Look at how everyone was supposed to feel guilty because some kids won't get loads of crap this christmas because a company went bust.It's symbolic meaning is still about peace and love, regardless of the fact that we chose to override it with consumerism. Just read Aladdin's post (who isn't Christian) and what Christmas means to him.

[Disillusioned]

Can't really see what there is to debate here. If Channel4 want to try and normalise unusual behaviour that's up to them. For someone covering their entire face, whether it be with a motorcycle helmet, a KKK mask or a full veil to try and present some kind of television programme is certainly bizarre in any Western country.

[Aladdin]

But it isn't just about presenting a programme isn't it? It's about making a political/satirical point.

[CheeseOnToast]

Who cares really?

I think it's a good idea.

The whole thing that people shouldn't be allowed to cover their faces if they want too is obsurd.

People should be allowed to wear what they want....... what has it got to do with anyone else?

As for christmas, I am basically an Aetheist, but I enjoy Christmas as I actually LIKE the consumerism, dont see the problem with it>?

It's nice to be able to spoil your loved ones with gifts, and get spoiled, and lie around having time off work eating, drinking and being merry and everything that goes with it... in my opinion anyway..!

[edn1]

Good old channel four always doing something " out there " :D

They knew it'd get people talking, as always ;) and now people will tune in to see it.

[AllAmericanRageJunky]

Can't really see what there is to debate here. If Channel4 want to try and normalise unusual behaviour that's up to them. For someone covering their entire face, whether it be with a motorcycle helmet, a KKK mask or a full veil to try and present some kind of television programme is certainly bizarre in any Western country.
It is sort of bizarre to do that. But oh well. Their ratings.

[Namaste]

A lot of atheists seem to think it's Ok to celebrate Christmas

[Aladdin]

Isn't it?

[CptCoatHanger]

-']A lot of atheists seem to think it's Ok to celebrate Christmas

Huh? If by "celebrate" you mean enjoy taking time off work, seeing the family, and over indulging in Christmas pud, then yeah, i'd say that was ok.

I don't suspect many athiests will be celebrating the birth of Jesus.

[Toadborg]

kermit, are you suggesting that Muslims (and the vast majority who are non-Christians) should be forced to work across the Xmas period, because they don't go to church?

You get stranger with each debate........

[ShyBoy]

No, I'm not saying that. The Christmas message is just a message, and as I say, the Queen has got chuff all to do with it too.

If you don't believe in it you shouldn't be celebrating it, though. It's as stupid as me celebrating Eid by getting a big barrel of beer and some pork chops for tea.

Not really. It's a national holiday, it's an excuse to celebrate the year, be with family, drink too much and eat too much then watch crap films on telly whilst you're half dozing.

Also, I'm not really bothered what channel 4 want to do. I'll be watching the muppets christmas carol or something like that. :p

[Teagan]

Islam recognises Jesus as a phrophet and worships the same God as Christian's, Islam is merely an extension of christianity in the same way that christianity is an extension of Judeisum ... I am neither christian nor muslim yet I feel qualified (and have the degree to prove it) to comment on both.......

Your degree has let you down. Just because these faiths believe in 'one' god, doesn't mean it is the SAME god.

Christianity is a continuation of Judaism based on the prophecies of the Torah. Islam rejects Christianity because, amongst other things, it downgrades the deity of JC to a mere second-class prophet and in many cases, contradicts the history and teachings of both the Torah and the New Testament. No 'extension' there to Christianity then - if anything, it is a step back rather than a continuity.

Islam is a monotheist religon but the 'revealed' nature of their god is quite different to the other two - so cannot be the 'same' god.

[Wyetry]

It's a Christian

I don't think Christmas should be "inclusive"- people who celebrate other Gods should get their time off at their festival.

Last time I checked it was the same "god" - small technical point but you wouldn't want to go around offending any Jews or Muslims by saying their god was different to yours now would you...

The same god used the Gabriel who we all know from the Christmas story to reveal his wisdom to Muhammed - there is no argument between any of the religions that there is more than one god or different gods - the difference is in the way the different religions interpret the messages he supposedly gave to each of them.

[Teagan]

Last time I checked it was the same "god" - small technical point but you wouldn't want to go around offending any Jews or Muslims by saying their god was different to yours now would you...

So Muslims don't 'offend' Christians by saying that Jesus Christ is not God but a lesser human being and a lesser prophet than their Muhammed? Jews don't accept JC and neither do Muslims - yet Christians believe JC IS God ... so how can they be worshipping the same god?

[Teagan]

The same god used the Gabriel who we all know from the Christmas story to reveal his wisdom to Muhammed - there is no argument between any of the religions that there is more than one god or different gods - the difference is in the way the different religions interpret the messages he supposedly gave to each of them.

You updated your message so I missed this part ....

Hold on, so the SAME Gabriel that declared to Mary that she would give birth to the human expression of God (Jesus Christ), is the SAME Gabriel that told Muhammed that JC is just a prophet? Which one is correct? Where is the misinterpretation of that? Seems like pure contradiction to me. The 'interpretation' therefore depends on which account you believe in ...

[luvmeright]

Musllim's don't even celebrate Christmas so why does she get the hounour?

Doesn't make sense to me.
me either
didnt marge simpson do it last year?? channel 4 just like to take the mick
i wont be watchin this christmas message of the one by the queen as i have better things to do on christmas day like eatting my christmas dinner lol

[Kermit]

kermit, are you suggesting that Muslims (and the vast majority who are non-Christians) should be forced to work across the Xmas period, because they don't go to church?

Yeah, I am.

And in return Muslims should be allowed the same amount of time off for Eid, Hindus for Diwali, etc etc.

[Kermit]

So Muslims don't 'offend' Christians by saying that Jesus Christ is not God but a lesser human being and a lesser prophet than their Muhammed? Jews don't accept JC and neither do Muslims - yet Christians believe JC IS God ... so how can they be worshipping the same god?

My understanding is that Jesus does crop up in Islamic teaching, but Jesus is just a minor prophet rather than the Son of God.

Mohammed is the Big Cheese of Prophets, though.

[ShyBoy]

Yeah, I am.

And in return Muslims should be allowed the same amount of time off for Eid, Hindus for Diwali, etc etc.

Think this through though... that basically means everyone has seperate holidays, yea? That's not very inclusive

Why not make a holiday season, where everyone regardless of race or belief can celebrate together? For 95% of the population (maybe less?) it's not about Jesus, it's about happiness and family. Whilst you might hate it all, and like to work triple time, it's the one time of the year I get to see all my family, get a bit merry and laugh a lot.

Just because it started off as being about Jesus doesn't mean we can't use it as an excuse to kick back. It's good for national spirit, most people I know look forward to christmas because they can have a good time with their family and loved ones. I guess you get some cynical ones who see it just a way to get money of us. But if all you care about is money then you're missing what christmas is really about!

Having a really really great time! :)

[luvmeright]

Christmas is a Christian celebration and anyone who isn't a Christian has no place celebrating it.

I would allow Muslims to take the equivalent amount of time off at Eid, Hindus at Diwali, etc, but Christmas is for Christians.


If people of other religions get time off at christmas i think that christians should get time off when there are other religious festivals

[Aladdin]

You forgot to answer one of my questions Kermit. Do you ever go to office xmas parties, send greeting cards to others, put a xmas tree in the house or exchange presents with friends and family as part of Christmas?

I can only assume the answer must be 'no', seeing as you have such crystal clear concept of what Christmas means and should be.

[Kermit]

If people of other religions get time off at christmas i think that christians should get time off when there are other religious festivals

I don't.

One thing that upset me was at a previous workplace Muslims being prevented from taking time off at Eid, and it being the same for Hindus being prevented from taking time off at Diwali.

Equally, I think its great that the only time my local Indian is closed is for Eid.

I try to avoid Christmas office parties, they're hateful things;)

[Teagan]

My understanding is that Jesus does crop up in Islamic teaching, but Jesus is just a minor prophet rather than the Son of God.

Mohammed is the Big Cheese of Prophets, though.

Absolutely correct, Kermit. He often mentioned and highly regarded but is considered a prophet only after importance to Muhammed. He is not considered to be 'God' as the Christians believe JC to be.

[ShyBoy]

I don't.

One thing that upset me was at a previous workplace Muslims being prevented from taking time off at Eid, and it being the same for Hindus being prevented from taking time off at Diwali.

Equally, I think its great that the only time my local Indian is closed is for Eid.

I try to avoid Christmas office parties, they're hateful things;)

This is more of a practical problem isnt it though?

There are religious holidays that some people want to see. I think they should be allowed to, but not compensated (i.e. it comes out of their holiday pay). Bizarrely, my friend who was Hindu celebrated Diwali every year (sometimes my family went too! :)) and never had to take a day off. It's usually at night afterall.

But I think there is a genuine need for a national religion-free holiday. And I think in a way that's what Christmas is, although it's supposed to be about Jesus most people just have a good time with friends and family. I know I never do anything Christian really.

Then of course, why couldn't this 'national religion free' holiday be either on another religious festival or at some random point in the year? Well, it's just how it happened really. Most people in this country were Christian and celebrated Christmas as a Christian holiday (and ignore the pagan rubbish, it's irrelevant really), then as time went on it became more just a 'holiday' than a religious festival and that's where we are.

I think everyone should be entitled to celebrate it, whether they're Christian, atheist, Muslim or Hindu. The fact that we can play the Santa Claus card for kids is an added bonus, imo. Who didn't get excited by Santa when they were little?

[DG]

Yeah but that is becoming a joke. Celebrating Christmas is a British Christian celebration, it's just another day to them and we'll have to listen extra heard if anyone bothers watching it because you can't see her mouth to understand better what she is saying!


"British Christian celebration" ??

Hmm .. me thinks you slipped up there ... cos I'm sure non British Christen also Celebrate Christmas.

Anyway Muslims do believe in Jesus and that he was a Prophet of God's, they just don't believe he was his Son.

[HIT]

"British Christian celebration" ??

Hmm .. me thinks you slipped up there ... cos I'm sure non British Christen also Celebrate Christmas.

Anyway Muslims do believe in Jesus and that he was a Prophet of God's, they just don't believe he was his Son.
This has been done before, it was probably a slip up. ;)

"Anyway Muslims do believe in Jesus and that he was a Prophet of God's, they just don't believe he was his Son"

Therefore dont believe in Christmas.

[CptCoatHanger]

Yeah, I am.

And in return Muslims should be allowed the same amount of time off for Eid, Hindus for Diwali, etc etc.

What about people who don't have a faith?

"No holidays for you, heretics!"

You really are full of nonsense sometimes.

[hazell]

Just because it started off as being about Jesus doesn't mean we can't use it as an excuse to kick back. It's good for national spirit, most people I know look forward to christmas because they can have a good time with their family and loved ones. I guess you get some cynical ones who see it just a way to get money of us. But if all you care about is money then you're missing what christmas is really about!

Having a really really great time! :)

I agree. I love the lights and the spirit, spending time with family and relaxing etc.

Personally, I don't care if a muslim delivers ch4's chritmas message or not - i wouldnt watch it. its not sacrelige. as a muslim, i wouldnt be bothered if a chistian delivered an eid message.

[Teagan]

as a muslim, i wouldnt be bothered if a chistian delivered an eid message.

You are a Muslim? :confused:

[hazell]

yeah. how come

[Teagan]

yeah. how come

'Cos Hazell seemed an un-Muslim name - which is very silly assumption on my part ... :)

as a muslim, i wouldnt be bothered if a chistian delivered an eid message.

But, with reference to your comment above, there would probably be many staunch Muslims who would object ... just as there are, no doubt, staunch Christians who are opposed to the Channel 4 broadcast.

Oh why can't we all just get on! :)

[Aladdin]

Regardless of whether non-Christians should be entitled to deliver a Christmas message (and sure as hell they are, just as sure as hell Christmas is not the exclusive property of Christianity) the Channel 4 programme in question is a satirical one. Something that a few people appear to have failed to realise. No religion or institution is beyond satire.

[CptCoatHanger]

No religion or institution is beyond satire.

I agree with you, but it doesn't work that way in practice. Wave enough offensive placards and scream "death to the infidels" loudly enough, and it seems you can pretty much get away with what you like, not excluding curtailing free speech.

[Teagan]

Regardless of whether non-Christians should be entitled to deliver a Christmas message (and sure as hell they are, just as sure as hell Christmas is not the exclusive property of Christianity) the Channel 4 programme in question is a satirical one. Something that a few people appear to have failed to realise. No religion or institution is beyond satire.

satire
n : witty language used to convey insults or scorn

I doubt the veiled Muslim woman will intentionally be satirical. From what I have read, I am sure her message will be a serious one ... or is Channel 4 using a religious woman of another faith as a vehicle for the channel's own take on 'satire'? Would this, then, be exploitation?

[Bullseye]

Why does anyone care? It is just a tv show with some bird in a mask making a statement before she bogs off home. For all we know its all a spoof, it might not be a real muslim woman, it might be Mitchell and Webb or That Bo'Selecta chap in drag. Either way, does it really require 7 pages of posts about it? It's just a tv show that is on for one day.

[briggi]

Well I disagree that the C4 alternative Christmas message is officially a satirical programme, it may have been on some occasions in the past but I don't think that is its "point".

Of course no religion or institution should be above ridicule or satire, but I think that if (and that's a big if, as I don't think this will be the case) the speech is satirical then practising Christians would have every right to be offended and take issue with it. We all know that the devout Muslim community would take offence - and have in the past - at the first sign of their religion not being taken seriously, so there's no point in disputing that. If Christianity is fair game then every other religion would have to be, and the world would be a fabulous place if they were. Maybe that's what she'll do - poke fun at her own religion and de-mystify the stereotypes and stigma surrounding it. But she won't, so the whole concept and point behind it becomes very skewed... and pretty much lost.

[Teagan]

Why does anyone care? It is just a tv show with some bird in a mask making a statement before she bogs off home. For all we know its all a spoof, it might not be a real muslim woman, it might be Mitchell and Webb or That Bo'Selecta chap in drag.

It is a genuine Muslim woman :

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/entertainment/6210324.stm

Either way, does it really require 7 pages of posts about it? It's just a tv show that is on for one day.

People on this board can debate what they like. Religion may not mean anything to you but it can mean life or death to others - and 'just' a TV program could be unnecessarily offensive. What is the 'point' of satirising Christmas anyway? If you don't like seven pages of this, don't read it.

[Bullseye]

I didnt read, i just read the first page and last page then posted.

Religion means little to me, Where as faith in God means a lot. I am a believer with no Religion, what a rebel eh? I am like Jesus, maybe even bigger then Jesus...Oh My God, i just made the same mistake as John Lenon and The B Sharps.

As for Tv, Posters, Etc, i personally don't care about them. However i can see why some people. On the contrasting side i do understand why protests and demonstrations and speaches about one religion over another are offensive. Wow, Epiphany!

Any who, Some Muslim doll is doing some speach, i think IF she does offend or in some way slur Christianity, then it is only fair for an alternative to the alternative Christmas message, where the same is said about her faith. But i do NOT think ch4 are so foolish as to show a message that is just about slurring one religion. Surely it is going to talk about...stuff...tv shows...sports awards...achievements in society, etc. Well we can only hope eh?

[hazell]

Oh why can't we all just get on! :)

i agree completely.

if people get offended, then thats life, accept it - do something about it like proving your point - dont go psycho (i recognise its muslims who usually do- bloody muslims). but anyway, it doesnt matter who delivers the christmas mess, lets see what she says first. im guessing if its not satire it'll be something about lets get on with each other etc (or perhaps even if its?).

anyway, hazell isn't my real name Teagan although i might change it by deed poll.

[CheeseOnToast]

Kermit it would be unfeasible for everyone to have holiday at their own festival times.

Although the festivals are religious in their creation/background, they are then based mainly on what the majority religion is in the culture of a particular country.

I.e. in a Muslim country they won't have an Xmas holiday but will have the holidays you mentioned..

I don't think that shoud be an issue.....

Equally my girlfriends family, a lot of them are muslims, and I am always invited to their celebrations, should I not be allowed to do so as I am an aetheist? They don't seem to think so..

[Teagan]

Any who, Some Muslim doll is doing some speach, i think IF she does offend or in some way slur Christianity, then it is only fair for an alternative to the alternative Christmas message, where the same is said about her faith. But i do NOT think ch4 are so foolish as to show a message that is just about slurring one religion. Surely it is going to talk about...stuff...tv shows...sports awards...achievements in society, etc. Well we can only hope eh?

I agree. She won't slur Christianity, I am sure. In fact, nowhere have I said that she shouldn't do the message or if she would slur Christianity ... :) ... but it's still fun to debate! ;)

[Teagan]

i agree completely.

if people get offended, then thats life, accept it - do something about it like proving your point - dont go psycho (i recognise its muslims who usually do- bloody muslims). but anyway, it doesnt matter who delivers the christmas mess, lets see what she says first. im guessing if its not satire it'll be something about lets get on with each other etc (or perhaps even if its?).

anyway, hazell isn't my real name Teagan although i might change it by deed poll.

:) By the way, I wasn't against a Muslim woman (or any other religion) doing the alternative message .... although I don't see the point, to be honest. Unless, of course, the message is about peace, love and tolerance towards all - in the spirit of what we have grown accustomed to what the Christmas message should be. :)

I kinda just got involved in the discussion because someone said that as Islam, Christianity and Jews believe in 'one' god, that is has to be the 'same' god. I disagree. And I am not saying one is more right than the other two either. Just good old-fashioned debate ... :yes:

[hazell]

yeah i don't see the point either. but i wouldnt have problem with it if the shoe was on the other foot.

but its ch4. i wouldnt be surprised if it was chris morris in drag.

[bluewisdom]

Of course no religion or institution should be above ridicule or satire, but I think that if (and that's a big if, as I don't think this will be the case) the speech is satirical then practising Christians would have every right to be offended and take issue with it. We all know that the devout Muslim community would take offence - and have in the past - at the first sign of their religion not being taken seriously, so there's no point in disputing that. If Christianity is fair game then every other religion would have to be, and the world would be a fabulous place if they were. Maybe that's what she'll do - poke fun at her own religion and de-mystify the stereotypes and stigma surrounding it. But she won't, so the whole concept and point behind it becomes very skewed... and pretty much lost.Brilliant briggi :yes:

[Sopycookie]

Yeah but that is becoming a joke. Celebrating Christmas is a British Christian celebration, it's just another day to them and we'll have to listen extra heard if anyone bothers watching it because you can't see her mouth to understand better what she is saying!

everyone here who plans to celebrate christmas raise your hand if your actually a christian! christmas has long ago become a general holiday rather than a strictly religious one, which is fair seeing as it started as some kind of pagan fesitval that the christians stole so they could celebrate with out going to hell, and from what i can remember jesus was born in september.....i dont really know if having a veiled muslim on the alternative xmas message is a good thing (personally i dont care it doesnt bother me) considering the amount of fuss there has been in recent months about women wearing the veil they seem to be asking for trouble and wanting to upset their viewers, although maybe theyr doing it to try to change the public opinion about veils to try and get the general public to accept that people are actually ok...

[HIT]

everyone here who plans to celebrate christmas raise your hand if your actually a christian! christmas has long ago become a general holiday rather than a strictly religious one, which is fair seeing as it started as some kind of pagan fesitval that the christians stole so they could celebrate with out going to hell, and from what i can remember jesus was born in september.....i dont really know if having a veiled muslim on the alternative xmas message is a good thing (personally i dont care it doesnt bother me) considering the amount of fuss there has been in recent months about women wearing the veil they seem to be asking for trouble and wanting to upset their viewers, although maybe theyr doing it to try to change the public opinion about veils to try and get the general public to accept that people are actually ok...
Sep-Oct time, your correct. For the life of me I cant remember where I read it.

[katralla]

I want time off to celebrate the dancing baby, flying spagetti monster and Russell's teapot please :D

[bluewisdom]

Why is the exact date Jesus was born somehow relevant? If he was born in Spetember or July or March I don't see the difference, we'd still have one date a year we would celebtrate Christmas on, and surely this debate would be the same one only around that other date, wouldn't it?

[HIT]

Why is the exact date Jesus was born somehow relevant? If he was born in Spetember or July or March I don't see the difference, we'd still have one date a year we would celebtrate Christmas on, and surely this debate would be the same one only around that other date, wouldn't it?
Exactly.

[HIT]

It doesn't make sense that they don't celebrate christmas as one of thier prophets is Jesus of Nazareth!?
They dont see Jesus being born as the son of god on Christmas day.

[MrG]

Sounds like an explosive atmosphere

[Blagsta]

They dont see Jesus being born as the son of god on Christmas day.

Neither do I. Doesn't stop me celebrating Christmas.

[CheeseOnToast]

Neither do I. Doesn't stop me celebrating Christmas.

Same here