Guantanamo Bay Prisoners Comit Suicide

[DG]

http://scotlandonsunday.scotsman.com/index.cfm?id=860722006

http://today.reuters.co.uk/news/newsArticle.aspx?type=topNews&storyID=2006-06-11T030958Z_01_N10232278_RTRUKOC_0_UK-SECURITY-GUANTANAMO.xml&pageNumber=1&imageid=&cap=&sz=13&WTModLoc=NewsArt-C1-ArticlePage1

What do you think of Guantanamo?

Some people have been held there against their wills for 4.5 years now without charge .. how come the USA is allowed to even get away with it?

Other reports say prisoners that no longer want to live under those conditions are being force fed by drips to keep them alive.

[Fiend_85]

The bbc says this morning http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/5068606.stm that this is an act of war, but I can't work out why.

[Clandestine]

Yes, how dare those detainees kill themselves and deny us our right to continue torturing them! What a clever attack! :rolleyes:

[Deep Fathom]

The question is a lot wider. America are involved in a lot of countries, including Iraq, and see themselves as a saviour. Should they barge into other countries, with the argument: "without our intervention, they would be worse off"? The Iraq war: I am for it (not the lies though), but this i am against. They are treating them despicably and it is intolerable, imo, that they keep them as prisoners, when they're not even in power in the country. The prisoners are humans too, and they have the right to have a fair trial - this is beyond civilized law.

[luke88]

They obviously not real muslims then since commiting suicide is not allowed in islam.

[Blagsta]

That's one of the dumbest comments ever.

[luke88]

That's one of the dumbest comments ever.
You've never ever got anything real to say have you.

[wheresmyplacebo]

You've never ever got anything real to say have you.

honestly what have they got to live for since they'll never see the outside of that place

and who says its only muslims in there.......

[Blagsta]

You've never ever got anything real to say have you.

I bet you're unable to see the irony here. :D

[Kentish]

They obviously not real muslims then since commiting suicide is not allowed in islam.
Or maybe they committed suicide because they were suicidal?

Do you think anyone could feel that desperate after being confined to a foreign concentration camp for 4 years?

[DG]

Or maybe they committed suicide because they were suicidal?

Do you think anyone could feel that desperate after being confined to a foreign concentration camp for 4 years?


I agree imagine if any of us was locked up for 4 years, perhaps in a country where we didn't understand the language, you go on a hungar strike and the people holding you captive stick needles in your arms to force you to stay alive.

You can see no end to your situation, I'm sure it's more then enough to make anyone want to just end it all.

[JsT]

They obviously not real muslims then since commiting suicide is not allowed in islam.

You really are a complete and utter moron. :rolleyes:

[Teh_Gerbil]

Yes, how dare those detainees kill themselves and deny us our right to continue torturing them! What a clever attack! :rolleyes:
:lol: True though.

TBH - good for them. The torment, torture, maltreatment, and abuse is all over for them now. No longer do they have to put up with living in a concentration camp the rest of their days with little to no evidence for any reason of their being there.

Good for them. If the Iranians opened a camp, and treated US citizens like this - they'd be hell! But no, America is allowed to do this with no action taken against them.

[Iron Nic]

The bbc says this morning http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/5068606.stm that this is an act of war, but I can't work out why.
its called double speak.

"Then the face of Big Brother faded away again, and instead the three slogans of the Party stood out in bold capitals: 'WAR IS PEACE' 'FREEDOM IS SLAVERY' and 'IGNORANCE IS STRENGTH'."
--From George Orwell's Nineteen Eighty-Four

How can we be so sure that it was suicide. Who told us it was suicide? The military. The military cover up of haditha was exposed. For all we know they could just be minimizing the damage the deaths would make.

The prisoners was in the highest security wing in the guantanamo. The prisoners would’ve been under 24h surveillance. And to death will not come instantly when you hang yourself with linen. The suffocation is slow.

[Iron Nic]

Good for them. If the Iranians opened a camp, and treated US citizens like this - they'd be hell! But no, America is allowed to do this with no action taken against them.
i believe that is because the elites of other nations know that they can benefit from American expansion. everyone wants a piece of the pie.

[Clandestine]

its called double speak.

"Then the face of Big Brother faded away again, and instead the three slogans of the Party stood out in bold capitals: 'WAR IS PEACE' 'FREEDOM IS SLAVERY' and 'IGNORANCE IS STRENGTH'."
--From George Orwell's Nineteen Eighty-Four

How can we be so sure that it was suicide. Who told us it was suicide? The military. The military cover up of haditha was exposed. For all we know they could just be minimizing the damage the deaths would make.

The prisoners was in the highest security wing in the guantanamo. The prisoners would’ve been under 24h surveillance. And to death will not come instantly when you hang yourself with linen. The suffocation is slow.


Careful there nic, you'll be accused of being me! :thumb:

[Teh_Gerbil]

i believe that is because the elites of other nations know that they can benefit from American expansion. everyone wants a piece of the pie.

Well, a few have stood against it.

And China even made a Joke in the UN how the US could get away with Guantanamo, and that they then decided to launch an Attack on Cuba about Human Rights!

God, the UN is a farce.

[Bullseye]

The UN is an outdated and pintless institution that should be dispanded and burried in time like the League of Nations before it.

[Aladdin]

It should be reformed. The right of veto should be removed.

That would make things interesting.

[Disillusioned]

It should be reformed. The right of veto should be removed.

That would make things interesting.

Reform needs to happen but removing the right of veto would be a bad idea. Although Japan should be added to the five permanent members of the Security Council. (Who better to lead the reform than Tony Blair? When he leaves Downing Street Blair I feel would make an excellent UN Secretary General).

[Renzo]

The UN is an outdated and pintless institution that should be dispanded and burried in time like the League of Nations before it.

So what would you propose to put there to keep an eye on international law?

Also The US are claiming the suicides an act of PR (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/5069230.stm) This administration gets worse by the day. Something needs to be done. :mad:

[Bullseye]

Why should there be international law at all? Why cant state and nations merely make treaties between them selves and one another to accomodate neccessity instead of sweeping laws that will affect one country poorly and another country in a better way due to maintaining the status quo of the world with the powerful staying powerful and the weak staying weak.

[Renzo]

Why should there be international law at all? Why cant state and nations merely make treaties between them selves and one another to accomodate neccessity instead of sweeping laws that will affect one country poorly and another country in a better way due to maintaining the status quo of the world with the powerful staying powerful and the weak staying weak.

Lets see... human rights? The prevention of war? In a world without international law a state like the United States would just do what it wants...more so than now? Why else is the USA constantly threatening the UN.The strong would do what they will and the weak would do what they must. States are selfish and will do what they want. Noones ever going to suggest that domestic society within states should be based upon contracts between individuals, so why would states be any different.

[luke88]

Anyone who believes the UN has any crediability in the world needs to open their eyes. It is a weak institution actually, very weak, I don't know what it's suspsoed to do anymore. We all know the foundations of it and the reasons it was built up but now it is nothing.

Just look at all the wars in Africa, the UN just sits there and let's it happen.

Certain countries are kind of setting up their own UN such as the UK and US simply because the UN is worthless.

[Aladdin]

And whose fault is it when "the UN" doesn't spring into action?

Might it have something to do with five members in particular that have the right to veto anything they please?

[Fiend_85]

And that for a joint organisation to work, those members need to work through it, not hamstring it.

[luke88]

And whose fault is it when "the UN" doesn't spring into action?

Might it have something to do with five members in particular that have the right to veto anything they please?
I call for reforms but when I see the UN doing absolutely nothing about Africa... it bangs on about poverty wars etc... it's all talk. The UN is a load of shite.

[Aladdin]

Only because the way it is structured. Resolutions should be proposed by any member at any time, and passed on a majority vote with no member having right of veto.

The five countries that see each other as superior or more important to the rest, however, don't want to part with their precious right of veto or contemplate the possibility of third world little nations winning votes on issues they don't care much fore.

Those countries are to blame- not the UN itself.

[Fiend_85]

2/3s majority.
and the council is worth having for quick action.

[luke88]

Only because the way it is structured. Resolutions should be proposed by any member at any time, and passed on a majority vote with no member having right of veto.

The five countries that see each other as superior or more important to the rest, however, don't want to part with their precious right of veto or contemplate the possibility of third world little nations winning votes on issues they don't care much fore.

Those countries are to blame- not the UN itself.
Ok say we had majority voting. How would the UN be affective in tackling the problems of the world especially Africa?

[Aladdin]

Because the UN could then vote to intervene more often, more decisively and when and where it's needed.

[MrG]

well first of all they were saying the suicides were an act of war

some kind of self sacrifice holy jihad thing

and now they are saying, one, possibly more of the three who committed suicide, were due to be released, dear god, get yourhead straight america

[Renzo]

Lies, Lies and more Lies. They're just trying to cover their tracks, I wish Guantanamo would be shut down it is a truely evil place. If any other state in the World was doing the same thing with American citizens the US administration would be up in arms. Hypocritical cunts.

[Flashman's Ghost]

The veto's there for a reason and that's to make sure the UN doesn't go the way of the League of Nations.

Let's be fair if the UN security council voted to intervene in Chechyna and Russia says 'fuck off' whose going to put forces on the ground and get into a shooting war with one of the most powerful nations in the world.

At the end of the day the UN is only as good as its member nations and no nation has yet put the interests of the UN above its own, and there's no sign that any are going to do so in the future.

Even peacekeeping is based on national interest either a) its goes down well domestically in democracies (shades of intervention in Bosnia after lots of prime time TV coverage) b) its in many nations interests for the amount of war and instability to be kept to a minimum, as nothing hurts trade, commerce and prosperity as much as continual war and/or c) the UN pays peacekeeping countries extremely well and its a cheap way to get foreign exchange.

Fine to reform it, but any reform actually has to work on the ground.

[stargalaxy]

They obviously not real muslims then since commiting suicide is not allowed in islam.That's a bit of a strange comment. Okay, it may well be true that Islam frowns on suicides. Fair enough. But bearing in mind the terrible conditions inside the Guatanamo Bay camp, (from what we are told by those who have been in there) I wouldn't particularly blame them if they felt suicide was the only way out. The fact Islam says "oh, you can't do this" doesn't mean it won't happen.

Guantanamo Bay should not exist. A nation that loves democracy as much as the US claims it does should not be taking people to a Cuban island to get electric shocks where the sun doesn't shine. It is far more than an "anomaly". It's an international disgrace, and should be closed down immediately.

[Clandestine]

By the same token, luke, neither Bush nor any complicit member of the US administration can lay any valid claim to being Christians, since disregarding norms of international and deomestic Consitutional law, due process and respect for human rights (which goes well beyond the issue of Gitmo or other detention camps to the entire scope of all actions under the fraudulent neo-colonialist banner of the "WoT") is in no way in line with the teachings of Christ.

People detained and stripped of all human dignity without evidence or any idea when or even if they will ever be freed are no less susceptible to despair due to religion.

[Arfurmow]

Escape comes in many forms. Deprive your captors of their power by taking yourself elsewhere. But does Islam allow suicide?

http://answering-islam.org/Index/S/suicide.html

[Bullseye]

Lets see... human rights? The prevention of war? In a world without international law a state like the United States would just do what it wants...more so than now? Why else is the USA constantly threatening the UN.The strong would do what they will and the weak would do what they must. States are selfish and will do what they want. Noones ever going to suggest that domestic society within states should be based upon contracts between individuals, so why would states be any different.


Well Renzo, when does the UN stop wars or uphold human rights? I can think of few cases unless it is to protect the West or its allies or the regimes of powerful nations. No one is stopping the North Korean leadership despite there poor human rights records. Genocide in Rwanda happened to the full knowledge of the UNSC, so they simply renamed the Genocide as a "Civil War" to avoid having to get involved. No one would stop Russia in Chechnya as NQA said and no one will Stop China in Tibet. China claims Tibet is merely part of China, others say it is independant but nothing os done. If there was No VETO power there would be an obligation to get involved and if neccessary use force. But that would cause a shooting war between powerful and possibly Nuclear nations on many occasions so the VETO prevents this. It is mostly a formality. Take away the VETO excuse and nations would just choose to not become involved and then the UN loses what little power it has available.

Thats why it is a pointless outdated institution that should be completely scrapped and replaced or merely allowed to die like the League of Nations.

[Aladdin]

By the same token, luke, neither Bush nor any complicit member of the US administration can lay any valid claim to being Christians, since disregarding norms of international and deomestic Consitutional law, due process and respect for human rights (which goes well beyond the issue of Gitmo or other detention camps to the entire scope of all actions under the fraudulent neo-colonialist banner of the "WoT") is in no way in line with the teachings of Christ. :yes:

You can add Tony Blair to the list. Another 'committed' Christian who prays together with Bush before sitting down for dinner and discussing who should they bomb to fuck next.

[luke88]

By the same token, luke, neither Bush nor any complicit member of the US administration can lay any valid claim to being Christians, since disregarding norms of international and deomestic Consitutional law, due process and respect for human rights (which goes well beyond the issue of Gitmo or other detention camps to the entire scope of all actions under the fraudulent neo-colonialist banner of the "WoT") is in no way in line with the teachings of Christ.

People detained and stripped of all human dignity without evidence or any idea when or even if they will ever be freed are no less susceptible to despair due to religion.They're far from the warroirs of Christanity.

[Blagsta]

I call for reforms but when I see the UN doing absolutely nothing about Africa... it bangs on about poverty wars etc... it's all talk. The UN is a load of shite.

What do you think the UN could do to sort out the problems of poverty in Africa?

[Disillusioned]

Interesting article on the UN and its role in spreading hatred here. (http://article.nationalreview.com/?q=MDIwOWFkYmI4ZTdkYzNkYzAwMWRmNDE2MjMxZjliMTE=)

Tbh when the likes of China, Cuba, Zimbabwe and Saudi Arabia end up on the UN 'Human Rights' Commission the entire UN is made to look like a bad joke really. The UN is infested to the core with corruption and waste, problems like AIDS and world poverty are not going to be solved through the UN.

Bush had the right idea, he funded a $15bn programme to fight AIDS but with the condition that a third of funds be directed towards promoting abstinence. (While also making provision for the use of condoms). By effectively bypassing the UN and doing something directly UN sleaze and bureaucracy was skipped.

As for fighting poverty, well it's not going to happen through the UN. It'll happen through rich countries ending tariffs and subsidies. President Bush offered to abolish all tariffs and subsidies to promote prosperity among struggling nations if the EU would do the same. Unfortunately the EU - and France is mostly to blame has consistently refused to make any compromises on tariffs and subsidies. If it was the US holding stuff up there'd be a lot of criticism but when it's the French and the EU most of the left is silent.

[Blagsta]

Great unbiased source there as usual dis.

[Clandestine]

I love when Dis, of all people, decries the "spreading of hatred", when the very ideology he regurgitates regularly is founded in principles of bigotry, neo-colonialism, and hatred. Take away the UN veto and Israel might finally be held to account for its generations of ethnocidal crimes against humanity for once. That is why you wont see it happening, too much Western corporate investment in the status quo to allow such a thing.

The UN is infested to the core with corruption

Yes, it's called the "Security Council".

As for fighting poverty, well it's not going to happen through the UN. It'll happen through rich countries ending tariffs and subsidies. President Bush offered to abolish all tariffs and subsidies to promote prosperity among struggling nations if the EU would do the same. Unfortunately the EU - and France is mostly to blame has consistently refused to make any compromises on tariffs and subsidies. If it was the US holding stuff up there'd be a lot of criticism but when it's the French and the EU most of the left is silent.

How quickly and conveniently the boy doth forget which country it was imposing steel tarriffs to protect US industry. A selective memory is the boon of the rabidly ideologically indoctrinated mind.

That goes without mentioning the decades-long insitutionalised economic con game led by washington in the form of "structural adjustment arrangements" packaged with any and all "aid" ever provided courtesy USAID, The World Bank and the IMF. A mechanism for maintaining perpetual corporate extortion of the developing world's resources and future self determinant development prospects.

Another 'committed' Christian who prays together with Bush...

Remove the "gether with" and tighten it up a bit and the sentence will read more accurately. ;)

[Teh_Gerbil]

Great unbiased source there as usual dis.
:lol: Its true, that is why it is funny.

We need someone to keep linking to Al-Jazera... I think I'll start, and I'll take what it says as fact. Prepare for a week of Al-Jazera, people. :p

Anyway. Guantanamo just shows the game the US is realy playing to everyone. It shows that behind all the bullshit, THIS is what they are doing. And yet... the world ignores it. And the UN ignore it. Ho-hum. What DO we do?

[stargalaxy]

Anyway. Guantanamo just shows the game the US is realy playing to everyone. It shows that behind all the bullshit, THIS is what they are doing. And yet... the world ignores it. And the UN ignore it. Ho-hum. What DO we do?I don't quite agree with that interpretation. The world knows what Guantanamo Bay is about, and they don't like it. The protests are becoming more and more vocal. It's Bush and his cronies who are choosing to ignore it. Also, I would accuse Tony Blair of colluding with all this. He describes it as an "anomaly that will have to be dealt with". That hardly sounds like vocal opposition. Will he exert the influence he supposedly has on Dubya to demand it be shut down? Take an educated guess...

[Aladdin]

Interesting article on the UN and its role in spreading hatred here. (http://article.nationalreview.com/?q=MDIwOWFkYmI4ZTdkYzNkYzAwMWRmNDE2MjMxZjliMTE=)
What a load of rubbish.

[Teh_Gerbil]

I don't quite agree with that interpretation. The world knows what Guantanamo Bay is about, and they don't like it. The protests are becoming more and more vocal. It's Bush and his cronies who are choosing to ignore it. Also, I would accuse Tony Blair of colluding with all this. He describes it as an "anomaly that will have to be dealt with". That hardly sounds like vocal opposition. Will he exert the influence he supposedly has on Dubya to demand it be shut down? Take an educated guess...

China has made a JOKE about how the UN ignore Guantanamo... it's hardly going to amount to anything.

The only countries rasing issue exert little power in the UN - Cuba for instance. And it's South American allies. They get ignored and shot down - obviously it's some kind of Commie Lie Castro is spreading. Like he'd know what is happening in his own country! :rolleyes:

[stargalaxy]

China has made a JOKE about how the UN ignore Guantanamo... it's hardly going to amount to anything.Yeah... a country with an appalling human rights records like China can certainly lecture the USA about it, can't they? :rolleyes:

[Teh_Gerbil]

Yeah... a country with an appalling human rights records like China can certainly lecture the USA about it, can't they? :rolleyes:

The joke actually refered to how they themselves nad the USA get ignored whilst the UN will pcik on Cuba for Human Rights violations.

Sigh... gotta love the UN, eh?

[eternalsunshine]

The joke actually refered to how they themselves nad the USA get ignored whilst the UN will pcik on Cuba for Human Rights violations.

Sigh... gotta love the UN, eh?
Cuba? :shocking:

[eternalsunshine]

Surely the US presence in Cuba Gerbil?

[Teh_Gerbil]

Cuba? :shocking:
Missiles? (http://www.deepseadesigns.net/graphics/pictures/typhoonatsea.jpg)

[eternalsunshine]

Missiles? (http://www.deepseadesigns.net/graphics/pictures/typhoonatsea.jpg)American missiles granted.

[eternalsunshine]

Yeah... a country with an appalling human rights records like China can certainly lecture the USA about it, can't they? :rolleyes:Why attempt to bring a moral equvelance to any of this stargalaxy?

Human Rights are Human Rights.

[achinese]

appalling human right
are you a member of yank sponsored human right group? my yankee comrade